EPT[D] Why us lower level players hate "macro better" - Page 18
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
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Zion9
Romania347 Posts
First of all under macro you can understand much. Not only your mass attacking units. Its also about: - constant worker production -expanding whenever you can ( you will learn this by the time, basically you need to feel when you should expand and when you shouldn't). Also when you expand try to deny your opponents expand this will lead you to a better economy. -Army Now lets take it by easy steps : Constant worker production: Ok. You choose a strategy and you read on TL that you have to constantly create workers in order to have a good economy. But WATCH OUT! Maybe your strategy is all-in or you have around 50-60 workers and your still on 2 base and you dont wish to attack. Now take a look at your army. Is it good enough ? While spending 100 minerals every 5 seconds were you able to get a good army ? Also in early game, you know that your opponent is attacking and you need to drop down 1-2 bunkers or warp in some units. Is it good to continue creating workers ? Are you able to defend this push without creating more army ? Expanding So you start the game, what do you scout ? No gas absolutely ? This clearly will indicate a FE in any case (except for 6,7 pool but this is not the case). Now its time to make a decision, do you take the risk and do an All-in so while your opponent is spending 300-400 minerals on an expand you get some army and basically win by nothing just the simple fact that you have more units. IF you fail and he defends well hes has the advantage and mostly its a GG on higher levels. If you dont want to go all in, just expand. Think about it. Your opponent Fast expanded he has nothing what can kill you ! So you expand. Expand, transfer a few workers and start producing workers from both CC/Nexus/Hatch. Now scout, try to scout hes army, poke him here and there. When you scout you will see whats hes army composition etc. Make another decision. Is your army composition good vs him or not really ? If its good again its time to think. Attack, finnish him or you are really confident and you will expand so you can start denying hes expand when he starts it so you are ahead of him. And so on. What I would like to explain is that don't just expand because you saw pro games where in 7th minute they already have a full expo runnin, or you just have to much money banked by mistake. Learn the build orders of other races aswell so you are more prepared for everything. SCOUTING What i see as a main problem at lower leagues is SCOUTING. Ofcourse below Platinum its not that important because you can scout a 4 gate but simply because the player's aren't that good there is a possibility that he won't even attack you because he has no idea what is a 4gate. And so on. But scouting is really important, you need to know when basic pushes/tech switches happen @ different races, so you can start finding them out. So basically here are another few things what are important in lower levels: - Unit counters! (Against colossus - Viking, Corruptor) -Fighting against splash damage units (F.E. Spreading your bio army against colossus, attacking in concave) -NOT fighting on choke points and try not doing fights in small places where you can block your army or get surrounded - vs Zerg. Dont just A move in hes base, send a unit way in front of your army and check hes army, clean the creep Its not all about MACRO just as you said, you might have 30 bio units and your opponent 4-5 gateway units and 4 colossus but you will still loose. Thats why you dont attack ! Harass your opponent, try to snipe everything you can, hes workers, tech buildings, addons. I'm just a High Diamond player so I'm not that good to, but I didn't had any experience in RTS games so I started in Bronze aswell and got to Diamond in about 4 months but im stuck here for more then half a years so I know why you are getting frustrated. Also whenever you watch a pro match, try not just watching the fights, listen to the shoutcasters, try to understand the mindset of the game etc. If I can help you with any other things, please let me know, and good luck have fun! | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 08 2011 22:48 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Wow, now if you're going to critique macro that's a good way to do it  I didn't know 11 pool was just for early pressure, I'll have a look at your replay and see where I could get those extra units. I oversimplified somewhat. 11 pool 18 hatch is a reactionary build that relies heavily on scouting, chosing the exact right thing to do, out of tons of options. It's also quite technical (overlord, extractor trick, waiting on several supplies (11, 18) for a while because you can't afford to just build stuff as you need them. It's therefore - my opinion - a really bad build to learn when you are in the lower leagues, since you won't know what to do most of the time - and you'll accidentally just do stuff that's halfway okay. If you want to focus on one build, 14 gas 14 pool is good. However, with 14 gas 14 pool, it's not well suited for +1 attack speedlings without heavily changing it (because it's based off pulling drones off gas when pool finish, get ling speed, and then getting more drones with the extra minerals. If you leave the drones on gas and get an evo chamber, you won't be able to afford the 2nd queen and enough drones early enough. 13 pool is just safe ... I used to often do 15 pool against protoss, but then you are not safe against the 3 pylon block on ramp so I just switched to 13, it's roughly the same. It's really bad against Zerg and Terran though, so don't use it in those matchups. So if you want 1 build to focus on in all matchups, I think 14 gas 14 pool is the best one. Alternatively 15 hatch, but that relies on being decent at micro when defending cheeses. | ||
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TangYiChen
Korea (South)195 Posts
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Merl
United States9 Posts
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
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DD.Beaver
Netherlands29 Posts
the main problem is that gold league players dont have proper macro so if they execute a certain strategy it may hit a timing it is not supposed to hit (2,5 minutes later but somehow it lines up with you making mutas, thus being slightly weaker in ground army). everyone will tell you that the proper strategy is to make more ground units and wait with your mutas, however later on you will notice that this exact same push is actually supposed to hit long before you have mutas therefore making the "Strategy" you learned completely obsolete. so the strategy that may work in your next game, will not work at all in the game you will play 100 games from now. While if you just work on your macro and don't care about any strategy, that macro will carry you through every league upto masters, because the basic concept of macro never changes. | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
Just imagine for abit how much units u can pump out by spending everything. In the lower level, you can practically win sheer force despite strategy. Sure you can know strategies but without macro, you cant execute that strategy to its full potential.... | ||
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
Also the more variety is in your build/composition, the more technical the macro itself becomes, as well as the micro, which will further distract from the most important aspect of the game; SVC-Depot-MaRine-repeat ad-infinitum | ||
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furerkip
United States439 Posts
It seems more like "specific instance" vs "general explanation." For example, why do you go on a strategy forum? To learn more. The OP means that most low-level players want to know "Why did I lose here?" rather than "What can I do to win more often?" I think this makes a lot of sense, as if you've ever tried to teach someone something, it just makes more sense to say, "just do X and Y, and you'll be fine." But that's not really that helpful, believe me, I've tried that for people to tutor in Calculus and Physics AB, because they don't even understand what that even means. Why would they ask for help, if they just understood "Oh, macro better? Let's do that then! Thanks guys!" | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
So if you want 1 build to focus on in all matchups, I think 14 gas 14 pool is the best one. Alternatively 15 hatch, but that relies on being decent at micro when defending cheeses. I do actually 15 hatch against Terran, they're rarely able to do much against it in Silver. And I generally stick to roach play against Zerg because I'm just hopeless with ling bling. Running through YABOT a few times has reminded me how soul crushingly frustrating and difficult that whole process is. I'll work on it a bit more now and then just to see if I can get anywhere close to your results, especially since you did go through all the effort in analysing my replay and posting your own. But its just...I can't see myself doing that on a regular basis anywhere near the level it'd take to get diamond+ macro and not just quitting the game in absolute frustration. | ||
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Shaok
297 Posts
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Day9 has said this how many fucking times? It just sounds like you want some fast track to being a good player, sorry that doesn't exist is a game based on skill. Either you put in the time, and learn how to be a better player, or you become comfortable with your current level of play. Haphazardly posting some QQ thread on TL isn't going to make you better at macro-ing, or build orders, or Starcraft at all. It simply shows that you don't have the gumption to get better. | ||
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Pandepic
Australia219 Posts
However if somebody posts a replay where they basically had the right idea of the basic way the matchup works (again, very easy to find this out with some basic research) but they had some macro mistakes as well as some mistakes in positioning their army, scouting incorrectly or at the wrong times, defending when they should sacrifice a base and counter attack etc. Then I will give my opinion on all of those things as well as their macro mistakes. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On October 08 2011 23:47 aebriol wrote: I oversimplified somewhat. 11 pool 18 hatch is a reactionary build that relies heavily on scouting, chosing the exact right thing to do, out of tons of options. It's also quite technical (overlord, extractor trick, waiting on several supplies (11, 18) for a while because you can't afford to just build stuff as you need them. It's therefore - my opinion - a really bad build to learn when you are in the lower leagues, since you won't know what to do most of the time - and you'll accidentally just do stuff that's halfway okay. Reactionary? Its the same thing every time unless you only want 1 set of lings then u dont do 2nd extractor trick. 10/10 extractor trick, 11/10 overlord, 11/10 pool, drone to 15, extractor trick as pool finishes, queen+2x lings, 19 hatch, overlord, overlord. Then just drone. Its somewhat complicated but learning an early game build order perfectly is one of the most important things in starcraft and against lower level protoss this build is perfect for denying cheese and getting ahead in economy. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 09 2011 05:20 TheGreenMachine wrote: Reactionary? Its the same thing every time unless you only want 1 set of lings then u dont do 2nd extractor trick. 10/10 extractor trick, 11/10 overlord, 11/10 pool, drone to 15, extractor trick as pool finishes, queen+2x lings, 19 hatch, overlord, overlord. Then just drone. It is a really bad build UNLESS you decide to pressure with it. Which is why you really shouldn't use it unless you know how to pressure with it when it's useful. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On October 09 2011 05:31 aebriol wrote: It is a really bad build UNLESS you decide to pressure with it. Which is why you really shouldn't use it unless you know how to pressure with it when it's useful. If by pressure you mean go attack with the first 4 lings sure they are there to be used. If you mean make more lings then why did you 11 overpool in the first place? Making more than 2 sets of lings will completely ruin your econ advantage and those lings will probably be too late to do any damage. Also if you do a drone scout you sacrifice a big part of your econ advantage because you have exactly enough to use the first spawn larva and afford a queen on time. Sorry to change the subject guys T_T | ||
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SoqWizard
United States1 Post
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On October 06 2011 21:15 RudePlague wrote: In all reality, people want to play the game and enjoy themselves. You can't just "macro like pro" all of a sudden and jump up a massive level in your play. Yes a player could sit down and grind out a hundred (or probably much more) games on YABOT/Coach AI/Macro or Die until they have perfect macro, but it's not really fun and few players could pull that off. I've tried getting a friend who is new to the game to do that and he just won't because it's not fun. If they're not aiming to get better, then they shouldn't be asking for advice. Going from Bronze to Diamond takes two things: Good Macro, and a good build order. It can't really get any more clear cut than that. | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
Do this and many of you low players who say they have good macro will be suprised. Cool micro is great but when someone is just building way more stuff than you they will kill you. Macro looks a lot less cool than epic micro but it's way more important. Macro= Big Micro=Small and they have that effect on the game. Building the right unit compo is a part of macro :/. Scouting is totally useless if you don't adjust to what your fighting against. People say work on your macro because it is terrible. That is the reason you are underneath diamond nothing else. You might lose one game due to strats entirely but you lose/win most of them based off of macro. A nifty timing push is gonna be shit because your behind on building everything. When I watch replays I see players floating a couple K of mins and Gas with 10 workers idling and they claim they have good macro I lost because x is OP and i need a strat to beat it. I just cry a bit and shake my head. I stopped watching low level replays ages ago. I can't stand seeing that idle worker button it physically bugs me and seeing 10 just kills my ocd :/. I worked my way up from the bottom of bronze in beta with 0/5 as my placement to top 10 masters. Macro is what did this not fancy little tricks. You gotta learn to walk-->run-->parkour | ||
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