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I remember in a past episode of State of the Game, Liquid`Tyler said something interesting about the prospect of competing in an open bracket. He said he would play a little bit more aggressively, since this is generally a good way to take advantage of the skill difference between him and inferior players. Weaker players respond less well to pressure.
I really like that idea, and I thought that maybe I could incorporate some of that into my own play, but the problem is I play Zerg, and the correct way to play Zerg, according to the powers that be, is to make as many drones as possible while just being able to deal with your opponents' aggressive intentions.
I watch replays and see how long the pros drone before they start pumping units. I watch the Day[9] dailies that deal with the topic of when to stop droning and when to start making units, but I have to say that I am rarely able to recreate the stuff I try to emulate. My opponents, who aren't Grandmasters, don't push at standard times: they'll push any time at all. So my basic plan; of getting to 8 minutes, or 9 minutes, or whatever; before starting to really mass units, gets interrupted, which is usually when things start to go downhill.
I've always and only concentrated on learning to play 'standard', or 'straight up', or whatever you want to call it, reasoning that this is the best way to improve, and I can leave practising cheese for later. This means that for the most part I just play passively, making stuff and crushing my opponents pushes (or not, as the case may be), and waiting for him to give up and leave. So this thread is partly an attempt to inspire myself into trying to be a bit more aggressive. I've always liked the way JulyZerg plays, but I wouldn't fancy myself trying to emulate it, and the atmosphere in the community here isn't much more sophisticated than "early zerg aggression = all in."
Anyway so at the recent Dreamhack Invitational in Valencia I saw DongRaeGu do an interesting opening in ZvT that caught my attention. He used it against Rain in the semifinals, and against ThorZain in the final (there is a replay pack here).
In these games DRG expands early, gets a Roach Warren, makes seven Roaches, and then uses them to pressure his opponent. In the meantime he drones behind them and takes a third. In some games they do tremendous damage and in some they don't do so much, but I hope I'm right in saying it's not all in, since he is expanding and droning behind it.
It's not a committal tech choice: in some games he makes more Roaches in the middle game and gets upgrades for them, and in other games he just goes the standard muta/ling/bling.
Liquipedia has a page entitled Roach Pressure, but it is actually a 1-base, 7-roach rush. It also has an entry on a 2-hatch, 5-roach econ build attributed to Dimaga, which is quite similar to this. Either way here are the basics of what DRG did in his games:
15 hatch
15 gas
16 pool
@spawning pool finished make 2 Queens, 2 or 4 lings, and get Zergling speed.
28 make a Roach Warren + 2 overlords. Stop drone production and just pool resources.
@Roach Warren finished make 7 roaches (you should be able to make 6 straight away)
go pressure your opponent with the roaches
The benefits of this include:
a) you get to put pressure on your opponent, and induce him to make mistakes early in the game
b) roaches shut down hellion harrass (and you can sometimes get a free win against someone going double factory, blue flame, and skipping on defense)
c) your presence at your opponent's front gives you scouting information (better than running zerglings up and down, since players can hide units when there's no pressure - defending a push means you will get to see all of your opponents units)
d) the roaches give you a safe window to drone up and maybe take a third
e) in emergencies when you're larva starved, roaches are an easy way to dump resources when you need an army quickly
And the main questions this begs are:
1: is it really not an all in
2: what Terran openings can it be considered bad against
3: how should Terran players see this coming, and how should they respond
4: how dependant on hatch first is the build (I don't open hatch first)
5: can it be used against Protoss, and what are the possible problems associated with that.
I'm not a very good player, so I appreciate input! I'm going to try this in my ZvT for a while and see how it goes, and if this thread doesn't die in the meantime I'll post some replays of it going wrong.
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I believe Sheth describes this exact build on one of Mr. Bitter's 12 weeks with the pros episodes.
edit: except he usually makes 5ish roaches iirc.
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This kinda reminds me of the same concept as stephanos ling pressure vs protoss, will take a look at this. even though the idea of roaches vs terran kinda sickens me, DRG is definitely one of the most inspirational zergs and i love the idea of being actively aggressive.... and with the number of hellion opening it makes sense
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
idt its the same timing but its the same essence as the dimaga one where they skip ling speed and favors early roach. This works pretty well vs hellion expands but dont overcommit, u can do damage till a tank is out normally unless there is a bunker tho.
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On October 03 2011 10:02 Angry_Fetus wrote:
I believe Sheth describes this exact build on one of Mr. Bitter's 12 weeks with the pros episodes.
edit: except he usually makes 5ish roaches iirc.
Yea, Sheth has been doing this for ages, and he does talk about it in an episode of 12 Weeks with the Pros.
Basic premise:
15 hatch
If you scout that T has taken his gas, a hellion opening is very likely
If you scout no tech-lab on the rax, then a hellion opening is almost certain
25 roach warren
28 double overlord
Roach Warren will finish as your first 2 injects pop off, and you can stroll across the map with 5-7 roaches - something that can be quite hard to defend with just hellions.
You will often do damage, and the roaches should give you some solid map control, allowing you to take a pretty quick third as you drone up.
The build is bad against tech lab openings because its easy for T to just make a marauder and own your roaches from behind a wall-in.
It's also pretty bad against fast expands because, in general, natural expansions will be defended with bunkers and marines - something roaches aren't particularly good against.
Against tech openings like banshees, you can often do big damage before the banshee is able to clean up the roaches.
And, obviously, vs standard hellion stuff, roaches are quite good.
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I too have taken notice of this, and love the way it gives me back the map from hellions. You just have to be careful if he tries to run for your drones when you push out.
You also have to demonstrate good multi-tasking while conducting your attack in order to transition well.
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On October 03 2011 10:26 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:02 Angry_Fetus wrote:
I believe Sheth describes this exact build on one of Mr. Bitter's 12 weeks with the pros episodes.
edit: except he usually makes 5ish roaches iirc. Yea, Sheth has been doing this for ages, and he does talk about it in an episode of 12 Weeks with the Pros. Basic premise: 15 hatch If you scout that T has taken his gas, a hellion opening is very likely If you scout no tech-lab on the rax, then a hellion opening is almost certain 25 roach warren 28 double overlord Roach Warren will finish as your first 2 injects pop off, and you can stroll across the map with 5-7 roaches - something that can be quite hard to defend with just hellions. You will often do damage, and the roaches should give you some solid map control, allowing you to take a pretty quick third as you drone up. The build is bad against tech lab openings because its easy for T to just make a marauder and own your roaches from behind a wall-in. It's also pretty bad against fast expands because, in general, natural expansions will be defended with bunkers and marines - something roaches aren't particularly good against. Against tech openings like banshees, you can often do big damage before the banshee is able to clean up the roaches. And, obviously, vs standard hellion stuff, roaches are quite good.
i agree with pretty much everything in this post, especially that it's bad against FE builds, namely 1 rax FE or 15CC (i think? haven't tried it). it sucks when you can't get a drone in his base or scout his gasses with an ovie though, because you don't know if he's 1 rax FE'ing or doing a tech opener, and you have to commit to this before you know in most cases.
but i think it can also be pretty good against a tech lab opening, a lot of times you can smash the depot down and get in and do damage, and at very least you force him to pull his mineral line to you and you can snipe a ton of repairing SCVs.
i think this goes without saying, but if anyone was wondering....don't attempt this against a 2 rax :D
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i remember watching the valenica matches with DRG against thorzain, but i forget when DRG put down his second hatch. i think its before the roaches pop out, but would anyone care to tell me the drone count? this computer im on doesnt have sc2 on it so i cant watch the reps 
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It's a shit coinflip build that only works against someone who decided to make only hellions. You're better off using July's 2 base Roach aggression build.
15hatch
15/16pool
17gas
2 queens, use both for injecting larva
drone until 28/28
roach warren
2 overlords
once roach warren is ready make enough roaches to get to close to 44 supply
metabolic speed right after gas is spent on roaches
drone behind it
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roach pressure works because roach is not larva intensive... So you can drone behind it pretty easily, unlike a baneling bust or w/e.
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A roach rush against a terran seems to me (a plat terran player) somewhat risky. That is not to say it is without its uses. As you say, roaches cripple hellion openings, set you up to handle mech, and can provide you with a decent early game contain.
Here's the problems as I see it: You cripple hellion openings and can outright win against FE builds, but against a 2-3 rax bio opener, you are done. You are well equiped to handle mech via a roach opener, but less able to harass a defended terran and less able to handle upgraded bio. Your roach opening gives you a contain, but at the cost of your tech.
All in all this makes (in my opinion anyway) the roach rush against terran a gamble. It will either pay off very well or cost you the game.
If I may reference a recent TvZ I played (will post a replay once I get home if I can find it) where I opened with a 3 rax marine with shield timing push. My goal with the build is super fast shields, fast marine production, into an attack while adding two more rax for more army and expanding.
Having scouted the zerg, I set my SCv to patrol in his natural hoping to spot the expand and delay it. When he hadn't expanded by the time I had all three rax completed, I went in for a look to see what he was up to. Found the roach warren and ran home. Bunker by my wall, managed to get 1 marauder out and in that bunker, held the push with nearly no losses. Now I have an army, a spare OC, and a zerg outside my wall that is behind on tech and can't come in. Use my 5 rax (adding one more tech lab) to pump marauders and marines, got the stim and shells, threw out two medivacs and pushed. Rolled the roaches and slings, tore through the spines and killed the zerg just as mutalisks were popping, which my marines ate up redily enough.
All rambling aside, I suppose my post is trying to answer your question thus: Roach openings are good against FE or Hellion openings, may overrun a Starport opening, but will lose pretty hard to bio openings.
Keeping in mind these are the observations of a Plat Terran...hope it helps.
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It's pretty easy to scout factory openings, though.. so rather than a hard build order, just play by the timings. You should be thinking about building a roach warren right about when your drone/ling/overlord is poking up their ramp and seeing what they have.
It's totally effective if you do it smartly, and if you do it blindly then its a coinflip. Be good, drone scout at 10, find out what you need to make!
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I do this a lot. People are wrong when they say its a coin-flip or that it's all in. You expand first, and save gas for roaches instead of getting ling speed. You ONLY do this if you scout gas first. This basically means that unless the terran opponent opens relatively standard, you are in a good position. At the very least, this sort of play reveals the terran hand.
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On October 03 2011 11:01 Ironsights wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A roach rush against a terran seems to me (a plat terran player) somewhat risky. That is not to say it is without its uses. As you say, roaches cripple hellion openings, set you up to handle mech, and can provide you with a decent early game contain.
Here's the problems as I see it: You cripple hellion openings and can outright win against FE builds, but against a 2-3 rax bio opener, you are done. You are well equiped to handle mech via a roach opener, but less able to harass a defended terran and less able to handle upgraded bio. Your roach opening gives you a contain, but at the cost of your tech.
All in all this makes (in my opinion anyway) the roach rush against terran a gamble. It will either pay off very well or cost you the game.
If I may reference a recent TvZ I played (will post a replay once I get home if I can find it) where I opened with a 3 rax marine with shield timing push. My goal with the build is super fast shields, fast marine production, into an attack while adding two more rax for more army and expanding.
Having scouted the zerg, I set my SCv to patrol in his natural hoping to spot the expand and delay it. When he hadn't expanded by the time I had all three rax completed, I went in for a look to see what he was up to. Found the roach warren and ran home. Bunker by my wall, managed to get 1 marauder out and in that bunker, held the push with nearly no losses. Now I have an army, a spare OC, and a zerg outside my wall that is behind on tech and can't come in. Use my 5 rax (adding one more tech lab) to pump marauders and marines, got the stim and shells, threw out two medivacs and pushed. Rolled the roaches and slings, tore through the spines and killed the zerg just as mutalisks were popping, which my marines ate up redily enough.
All rambling aside, I suppose my post is trying to answer your question thus: Roach openings are good against FE or Hellion openings, may overrun a Starport opening, but will lose pretty hard to bio openings.
Keeping in mind these are the observations of a Plat Terran...hope it helps.
To clarify, you are talking about experience against a 1base roach attack while DRG goes hatchfirst. I personally (low masters zerg) have really been favoring this recently although I hadn't refined the build properly so I usually ended up with about 6 roaches pushing. I found that this is very good in the current metagame, and can be very effective against any non-bio openings, and if they are doing some sort of bio opening you can contain them as roaches are quite good against marines in small numbers, and drone up and eventually transition into a ling/baneling style.
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On October 03 2011 11:12 Xanbatou wrote:
I do this a lot. People are wrong when they say its a coin-flip or that it's all in. You expand first, and save gas for roaches instead of getting ling speed. You ONLY do this if you scout gas first. This basically means that unless the terran opponent opens relatively standard, you are in a good position. At the very least, this sort of play reveals the terran hand.
Expansion first is correct, but OP is talking about a one base roach build, and considering you are spending 575/175 before you even start your hatchery then it's as conflip as it gets.
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On October 03 2011 09:57 barrykp wrote:Liquipedia has a page entitled Roach Pressure, but it is actually a 1-base, 7-roach rush. It also has an entry on a 2-hatch, 5-roach econ build attributed to Dimaga, which is quite similar to this. Either way here are the basics of what DRG did in his games: 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool @spawning pool finished make 2 Queens, 2 or 4 lings, and get Zergling speed. 28 make a Roach Warren + 2 overlords. Stop drone production and just pool resources. @Roach Warren finished make 7 roaches (you should be able to make 6 straight away) go pressure your opponent with the roaches
Actually, this build is already in Liquipedia, it's just under the Vs. Terran section instead of under  Roach Pressure.
It's called Expand Roach
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On October 03 2011 10:48 Joey Wheeler wrote:
It's a shit coinflip build that only works against someone who decided to make only hellions. You're better off using July's 2 base Roach aggression build.
15hatch
15/16pool
17gas
2 queens, use both for injecting larva
drone until 28/28
roach warren
2 overlords
once roach warren is ready make enough roaches to get to close to 44 supply
metabolic speed right after gas is spent on roaches
drone behind it
Considering DRG, a very good korean zerg, uses this strategy, I would hardly dismiss this as a "shitty coinflip build" without deep analysis. This isn't a coinflip because if you scout timings that are indicative of a hellion build, you make roaches, which are obviously very strong versus hellions.
This build order is just a basic refinement of the idea of "get an expansion, then early pressure with roaches while focusing on economy behind it". The execution obviously has to be ironed out, but I think the idea is very strong on its own and DRG has already shown its usage in high level games.
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On October 03 2011 11:24 H2OSno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:48 Joey Wheeler wrote:
It's a shit coinflip build that only works against someone who decided to make only hellions. You're better off using July's 2 base Roach aggression build.
15hatch
15/16pool
17gas
2 queens, use both for injecting larva
drone until 28/28
roach warren
2 overlords
once roach warren is ready make enough roaches to get to close to 44 supply
metabolic speed right after gas is spent on roaches
drone behind it
Considering DRG, a very good korean zerg, uses this strategy, I would hardly dismiss this as a "shitty coinflip build" without deep analysis. This isn't a coinflip because if you scout timings that are indicative of a hellion build, you make roaches, which are obviously very strong versus hellions. This build order is just a basic refinement of the idea of "get an expansion, then early pressure with roaches while focusing on economy behind it". The execution obviously has to be ironed out, but I think the idea is very strong on its own and DRG has already shown its usage in high level games.
oh fuck, I completely misread the OP and thought you were talking about 1 base. my bad
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Roach/speedling aggression is very nice in early-game ZvT - if you break through the wall, and he didn't 2rax, you probably win. The problem is, 2rax destroys it, so you pretty much have to scout for that.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but since you need to scout (most likely drone unless close air spawn), and b4 the wall off is finished, you should leave your base at 9/10, after olord is started? Or is there a different scout timing? According to Liquipedia, by the time you would do 15 gas, you should have scouted if he's gassing or not, which to me implies a 9 scout as opposed to a later timing...
Thoughts?
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On October 03 2011 11:01 Ironsights wrote:
A roach rush against a terran seems to me (a plat terran player) somewhat risky. That is not to say it is without its uses. As you say, roaches cripple hellion openings, set you up to handle mech, and can provide you with a decent early game contain.
Here's the problems as I see it: You cripple hellion openings and can outright win against FE builds, but against a 2-3 rax bio opener, you are done. You are well equiped to handle mech via a roach opener, but less able to harass a defended terran and less able to handle upgraded bio. Your roach opening gives you a contain, but at the cost of your tech.
This is what I would be most concerned about as a zerg, but at the same time, I rarely see bio play anymore, so I think it's a fairly calculated risk. Especially given the number of hellion openers that terran have been using of late.
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So the DRG and korean versions of this pressure typically involve like 10-14 lings with the 6-7 roaches. This is good against any gas helion opening. It's also good against FE as long as there is just one bunker.
The key things that have to happen in the attack are:
- keep your strategy hidden as long as possible. kill scouting scvs, take a less precarious path if possible and hide your lings till the last second.
- lings surround the bunker first (if FE) and then use the roaches
- have to do econ damage if it's an FE. best case shut the natural down completely. worst case you need to kill 8+ scvs.
- drone, build evo, and take 3rd behind this. note, this isn't good on maps that have rocks where 3rd bases will be. Having the map to take this early third is really the strength of this attack. If your attack isn't great, you may be even in drone/scvs or maybe a little down but having the 3rd will keep you in it.
Unless the player is bad, you should not win the game there, but you'll be in good or even position entering mid game which is what most zergs want.
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The biggest problem with droning like the pro's is that it make a meta game trend where all zergs are playing passively. If you keep doing this like Idra you'll find players will begin to cut corners that you wont necessarily see between scouting. If players don't realize these corners are being cut they end up losing and bitching about 3 base terrans and what not.
I think this roach build is great against any factory hellion play, and depending on your control possibly capable of delaying natural expansions. However if they go 3 rax ( which is out of fashion atm) you'll die.
Timing attacks are a pretty important part of the game. To many zergs sub masters talk about the macro game that they play as superior to timing attacks of terran and toss. But actually these zergs are just terrible in not realizing that timing attacks are part of a healthy macro game as much as passive play.
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I think a lot of guys are misunderstanding the purpose of the build.
It's not something you do blindly.
It's something you do in response to 1 gas, factory.
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this is kinda like the roach/ling semi-all-in in ZvP but also works in ZvT with just roaches. Nestea also did this to MMA in AOL or was it Code S? It was recent and it worked quite well except in that game nestea over committed. In reality, you use the pressure to drone and get a 3rd earlier while on hatch tech and the pressure leaves your terran opponent in his base for awhile.
yeah mr.bitter just said it perfectly, you only do this when you scout he has a gas. Usually I drone scout on 10/10 and can get inside on most maps except taldarim but that map is VERY obvious what your enemy does. If there is anything but 2 rax outside the natural then it's 1 gas factory.
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the roaches are also useful to counter attack in case T goes banshee. usually T chooses to defend using his banshee, giving you time to prepare. if he does commit to air harrass, he'll also will suffer losses, because there will be not enough defense in his base
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I do something similar, but not the same way.
Way I do it is:
15 hatch
15 gas
15 pool
Drone scout
@ lair, 2 queens, ling speed, lings to combat 2 rax
@ lair, 1 queen, roach warren, ling speed, 4 lings (2 eggs), then drones, to combat scouted gas, or factory, or reactor addon on barrack (any indication gas is taken).
Make 5-7 roaches, send to opponents base, make 2 more queens at home and make more lings to rally after the roaches (ling speed is done).
If you can't break wall, focus SCV's and retreat keeping half at least of your roaches and the lings alive and drone behind.
It seems to work very very well against any non-tank opening.
But it is weak against someone who goes straight for marine tank siege mode, intending to pressure straight up with marine tank. Because you delay your tech and drones for a long time.
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yeah,schnullerbacke, i see this often on zerg streams if they do the roach pressure and the terran is going banshees, he has to defend with these banshee(s), so you have plenty of time to prepare for them,
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The benefits of this include:
a) you get to put pressure on your opponent, and induce him to make mistakes early in the game
b) roaches shut down hellion harrass (and you can sometimes get a free win against someone going double factory, blue flame, and skipping on defense)
c) your presence at your opponent's front gives you scouting information (better than running zerglings up and down, since players can hide units when there's no pressure - defending a push means you will get to see all of your opponents units)
d) the roaches give you a safe window to drone up and maybe take a third
e) in emergencies when you're larva starved, roaches are an easy way to dump resources when you need an army quickly
a) yes true. unfortunately it doesn't exactly take a sophisticated response for the terran to hold this with minimal damage. keep their orbital in base, build a bunker and pull scvs to repair while you build a marauder or a tank.
b) is generally true. however, if you pressure with your 6 roaches, and make additional roaches for defense, he doesn't need to kill any drones. Normally you'll see zergs push with the roaches to say "STOP MAKING HELLIONS" and the terran obliges, even if the zerg doesn't make any roaches after that. Once the terran makes a marauder or a tank and cleans out those roaches, he could immediately go back to hellions if he wants, and he can still do damage.
c) is true, and is probably the most important thing about this kind of pressure
d) yes they do. Unfortunately you already cut drones to get your roaches out, so you are just catching up to where you should have been. I actually think you are still behind even if you drone up. 6 roaches is a lot of money, and a lot of time spent mining gas when you could be mining minerals. You still want to get zergling speed, so you're not really saving any money, so the roaches (and overlords to get supply for them) really cut into drones. If you don't get the roaches, you build a spine crawler (cheaper than the roach warren) and a 3rd queen, and a lot of drones (and some lings a little bit later down the road).
I've tried it out and it has its merits, but I don't like it. You occasionally win a game because the opponent went 1 rax double expand or reactor hellion double expand, but usually you kill his hellions and 3-4 SCVs while being 10 drones behind where you should be.
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I didn't check drg's exact build order, so this is what i do.
15 hatch
15 pool
16 gas
100 gas - ling speed
pull off 1 drone in gas
at around 60% inject, plant roach warren
roach warren will complete at the same time as 2nd wave of inject
Have 1 queen to drop tumor instead of 2nd inject, since you will have too much larva
while roaches are travelling pump down 1-2 waves of lings.
This build is supposed to be a reaction to fact build. Notice how DRG only start to drone scout recently, when he started using this build. You need to scout early because you will need to leave drones in gas.
The beauty of this build is that first you are not pinned back by hellions. You will have a group of lings in your base when roaches are moving out. You send your lings out later to meet with your roaches at the terran base . Second, this will hit at the timing terran is supposed to expand. Usually terran won't have that many marines at this timing. So even if theres a bunker you can focus down some of the scvs.
Of course this build works only for rush distances of blizzard size maps (most of season 3 maps >.>). It's too difficult to play macro against hellion expand into 2 base marine tank follow up for such rush distances. You always find yourself just lacking 1-2 wave of production to engage, and terran will start choking you to death if they manage to set up their attacks at your ramp. That's where this build comes into play. Long rush distances where roaches are not that effective but you can deal with timing pushes easier, you can just switch back into normal macro playstyle.
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I think you should be able to see whether Terran has gone for a Hellion build before the Roach Warren finishes. Even if you can't, he'll have to show his army, and if it's 3 Rax, you should be safe by pulling back with your Roaches and just massing Lings; the only upgrade I could imagine a 3Rax MM Terran having at this timing is Concussive Shells.
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It's an OK build against rax fact. You can't use it as a "standard".
I personally stopped doing it because I had trouble dealing with ca. 4 hellion counterattacking when you move out. I am still not sure what you should do against that, although maybe with the new patch you could block the ramp and evacuate the natural.
Against gasless FE it's a gimmick, you may win games but terran should be able to take no losses and get ahead.
Against reaper expand don't do it. They get easy marauders and possibly a very early stim timing that is very hard to hold.
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Personally Ive been doing this build for ages right after Sheth showed it once(5-6 months ago)
Now its finally starting to catch on between more passive-aggressive pro zergs
This opening is very versatile as it can defend just about anything terran can throw at you(only when u see terran going gas first and no tech lab on his first rax until your drone leaves his base)
One of the most important thing about this build is that the roach pressure will let you scout what the terran is doing most likely
Any tech heavy play will have to take some dmg from roaches
You have to remember though to throw down an evo chamber as ur pushing out
early third + even a macro hatch can be added after you cut gas mining for a while
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I build of mine that's very successful against terren is to 3 Roach Expand, by having 3 roaches up you can pressure a terren easily and prevent him from doing any sort of aggression to you while you drone hard behind it, and from there you can take the game anyway you like
Its very successful against all terren openings with proper micro you can keep all the roaches alive while picking off units and buildings at the front of their base.
Even if they do bunker up you will still have a nice contain so they can't pressure and will have 2 bases fully saturated very quickly.
The build I use currently is 13 pool or 12 DET pool either works drone to 17 make extractor when pool finishes put up RW and make queen then make either an extra drone or ling depending on the map and then you save 3 larva take drones off gas at 76 then once the RW finishes you make 3 roaches and take your expo and from there you can do what ever.
If anyone has any queries and would like to know more send us PM
glhb
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DRG does this build when he scouts hellion expand. Normally he does it against reactor hellion, but he's done it with success against MMA's blue flame hellion expand.
If they do a reaper expand they'll have marauders or lots of bio, if they do a siege tank expand, siege tanks. Bunkers in general shut it down, and so does bio, but it's a great way to exploit hellion expands.
The problem with this build is that if he doesn't do a hellion expand, or worse, you do zero damage, you will be so far behind that you'll basically autolose to rine/tank timing pushes. 7 roaches just kills Zergs economy, and your lair will be super late as well.
So that's why it only works against hellion expands. Bio destroys it, bunkers destroy it, siege tanks destroy it, so something like 1 rax expand or reaper expand or CC first actually owns this build since they will have bio/bunkers to defend, and the subsequent timing push comes so fast from a FE build that you'll basically autolose due to shitting on your economy.
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I'm a Gold league random player, and upon seeing this build I remembered a game I played a couple of weeks ago where I did something similar. I just watched the replay and without knowing the build order, i just happened to do exactly this build vs a 1 barracks expanding terran. I just won the game right then and there.
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This build is supposed to be a reaction to fact build. Notice how DRG only start to drone scout recently, when he started using this build. You need to scout early because you will need to leave drones in gas.
The weird thing is that he doesn't get any info with his scouting drone. He always pokes up the ramp and immediately goes home. Basically the scout gives him the location, and tells him if there is one or two barracks at the top of the ramp (and I don't think he checks for hidden rax either). he never looks for gas.
so if the decision has to be made at that point, he doesn't have much information yet.
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On October 03 2011 11:01 Ironsights wrote:
A roach rush against a terran seems to me (a plat terran player) somewhat risky. That is not to say it is without its uses. As you say, roaches cripple hellion openings, set you up to handle mech, and can provide you with a decent early game contain.
Here's the problems as I see it: You cripple hellion openings and can outright win against FE builds, but against a 2-3 rax bio opener, you are done. You are well equiped to handle mech via a roach opener, but less able to harass a defended terran and less able to handle upgraded bio. Your roach opening gives you a contain, but at the cost of your tech.
All in all this makes (in my opinion anyway) the roach rush against terran a gamble. It will either pay off very well or cost you the game.
If I may reference a recent TvZ I played (will post a replay once I get home if I can find it) where I opened with a 3 rax marine with shield timing push. My goal with the build is super fast shields, fast marine production, into an attack while adding two more rax for more army and expanding.
Having scouted the zerg, I set my SCv to patrol in his natural hoping to spot the expand and delay it. When he hadn't expanded by the time I had all three rax completed, I went in for a look to see what he was up to. Found the roach warren and ran home. Bunker by my wall, managed to get 1 marauder out and in that bunker, held the push with nearly no losses. Now I have an army, a spare OC, and a zerg outside my wall that is behind on tech and can't come in. Use my 5 rax (adding one more tech lab) to pump marauders and marines, got the stim and shells, threw out two medivacs and pushed. Rolled the roaches and slings, tore through the spines and killed the zerg just as mutalisks were popping, which my marines ate up redily enough.
All rambling aside, I suppose my post is trying to answer your question thus: Roach openings are good against FE or Hellion openings, may overrun a Starport opening, but will lose pretty hard to bio openings.
Keeping in mind these are the observations of a Plat Terran...hope it helps.
I think most people here already know not to do this against multi rax openers. You 're kind of stating the obvious. Given the fact that higher level games usually dont have multi rax with gas openers, this build is not risky. If a zerg plays this blindly, it's no wonder you are playing them in *plat* level
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Watch Blade's stream, he usually opens ZvT with roaches and transitions into muta/ling/bling. It's basically the Sheth/MrBitter opening with some slight variations depending on scouting. I was using it before as well but had some problems transitioning out of it, watching his stream and replays helped a lot with that.
http://www.twitch.tv/blade55555
@dementrio - Blade usually makes 6 roaches, pressures with 4 while leaving 2 behind for defence. Seems to work well.
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On October 03 2011 11:56 SwitchAUS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:01 Ironsights wrote:
A roach rush against a terran seems to me (a plat terran player) somewhat risky. That is not to say it is without its uses. As you say, roaches cripple hellion openings, set you up to handle mech, and can provide you with a decent early game contain.
Here's the problems as I see it: You cripple hellion openings and can outright win against FE builds, but against a 2-3 rax bio opener, you are done. You are well equiped to handle mech via a roach opener, but less able to harass a defended terran and less able to handle upgraded bio. Your roach opening gives you a contain, but at the cost of your tech. This is what I would be most concerned about as a zerg, but at the same time, I rarely see bio play anymore, so I think it's a fairly calculated risk. Especially given the number of hellion openers that terran have been using of late.
I tend to use bio very heavily against Zerg these days. It is doing pretty well for me, perhaps because it is so out of fashion. 2rax (one reactor one tech) for a fast stim drop while having enough marines left over for a bunker. Expand during the drop, more rax, rinse and repeat. I win games I don't think I should, just because of the constant pressure. Mix in the FG nerf, and it seems super viable, at least at my level of play.
And at (scph) You are right, I suppose I am stating the obvious. However, since the OP asked what builds the roach pressure would work against and which ones it wouldn't, I felt like my answer was laudible. And thanks for emphasising the idea that I am in platinum. I pointed that out twice in my post so no one would mistake my opinions for those of a "high calibur" player, and having you reinforce that idea is comforting. I'm all warm and fuzy now, thanks 
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On October 04 2011 03:51 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +This build is supposed to be a reaction to fact build. Notice how DRG only start to drone scout recently, when he started using this build. You need to scout early because you will need to leave drones in gas.
The weird thing is that he doesn't get any info with his scouting drone. He always pokes up the ramp and immediately goes home. Basically the scout gives him the location, and tells him if there is one or two barracks at the top of the ramp (and I don't think he checks for hidden rax either). he never looks for gas. so if the decision has to be made at that point, he doesn't have much information yet.
Timing of rax or first marine can tell you gas first or rax first. You can roughly guess whether its 1 rax or 2 raxes based on how the enemy control his first few units. I assume most terrans don't go siege expand anymore. 1 gas usually means reaper expand or some form of hellion opener. When you see reapers, you are still mining gas for speed, so there's still time to change your build. Not sure about about 1 rax expand though, but if this build is meant for shorter rush distances, i doubt 1 rax cc can hold off the push completely without any damage. This build is pretty good against fast starport builds too. Worse case scenario, use the gas for fast upgrades? Whenever i chose to use this build based on what i infer, it usually works for me most of the time. The only time it won't work is when terran choose to build more marines before planting their cc down, but you can delay their expansion timing since they have not moved down the ramp yet.
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I find that most terrans who open hellion will get a tech lab on their rax once they land the factory on the reactor, so once the hellions see the roaches moving out, there will be marauders out when your roaches hit his base. You would have wasted resources on roaches while terran just makes rauders and does a standard game with you behind on drone.
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The Zergs who beat me, are agressive with their ling and outmicro my hellions. As a Terran its never a good trade when he is sending lings at each hellion 2 at a time, you just take to much damage. I feel dealing with a speed first is 10x harder than dealing with any 15 hatch/roach rush. Regardless of what opening I do reaper/hellion, I'll always have a bunker up at my nat by the time you get there and then any normal terran will go into siege mode or fast drops. But this is 1 rax/gas/cc or 1rax1fact cc.
TLDR: if you can handle it, speed first > roach rush
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On October 04 2011 23:58 Ponyo wrote:
The Zergs who beat me, are agressive with their ling and outmicro my hellions. As a Terran its never a good trade when he is sending lings at each hellion 2 at a time, you just take to much damage. I feel dealing with a speed first is 10x harder than dealing with any 15 hatch/roach rush. Regardless of what opening I do reaper/hellion, I'll always have a bunker up at my nat by the time you get there and then any normal terran will go into siege mode or fast drops. But this is 1 rax/gas/cc or 1rax1fact cc.
TLDR: if you can handle it, speed first > roach rush
This, and honestly its generally easier than your average ZvZ ling/bane wars so most zergs are pretty decent at controlling it if they choose to
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This is interesting I may have to try it out once I can ladder again.
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if I remember it right, DRG did this on shakuras and only attacked with 7 roaches and expanded behind it, he was able to do lots of damage in terran base.
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I did this exact build months ago. Allows you to drone up really hard while they shit their pants with 7 roaches to deny an expansion or force mistakes/units.
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EPT
