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I remember in a past episode of State of the Game, Liquid`Tyler said something interesting about the prospect of competing in an open bracket. He said he would play a little bit more aggressively, since this is generally a good way to take advantage of the skill difference between him and inferior players. Weaker players respond less well to pressure.
I really like that idea, and I thought that maybe I could incorporate some of that into my own play, but the problem is I play Zerg, and the correct way to play Zerg, according to the powers that be, is to make as many drones as possible while just being able to deal with your opponents' aggressive intentions.
I watch replays and see how long the pros drone before they start pumping units. I watch the Day[9] dailies that deal with the topic of when to stop droning and when to start making units, but I have to say that I am rarely able to recreate the stuff I try to emulate. My opponents, who aren't Grandmasters, don't push at standard times: they'll push any time at all. So my basic plan; of getting to 8 minutes, or 9 minutes, or whatever; before starting to really mass units, gets interrupted, which is usually when things start to go downhill.
I've always and only concentrated on learning to play 'standard', or 'straight up', or whatever you want to call it, reasoning that this is the best way to improve, and I can leave practising cheese for later. This means that for the most part I just play passively, making stuff and crushing my opponents pushes (or not, as the case may be), and waiting for him to give up and leave. So this thread is partly an attempt to inspire myself into trying to be a bit more aggressive. I've always liked the way JulyZerg plays, but I wouldn't fancy myself trying to emulate it, and the atmosphere in the community here isn't much more sophisticated than "early zerg aggression = all in."
Anyway so at the recent Dreamhack Invitational in Valencia I saw DongRaeGu do an interesting opening in ZvT that caught my attention. He used it against Rain in the semifinals, and against ThorZain in the final (there is a replay pack here).
In these games DRG expands early, gets a Roach Warren, makes seven Roaches, and then uses them to pressure his opponent. In the meantime he drones behind them and takes a third. In some games they do tremendous damage and in some they don't do so much, but I hope I'm right in saying it's not all in, since he is expanding and droning behind it.
It's not a committal tech choice: in some games he makes more Roaches in the middle game and gets upgrades for them, and in other games he just goes the standard muta/ling/bling.
Liquipedia has a page entitled Roach Pressure, but it is actually a 1-base, 7-roach rush. It also has an entry on a 2-hatch, 5-roach econ build attributed to Dimaga, which is quite similar to this. Either way here are the basics of what DRG did in his games:
15 hatch
15 gas
16 pool
@spawning pool finished make 2 Queens, 2 or 4 lings, and get Zergling speed.
28 make a Roach Warren + 2 overlords. Stop drone production and just pool resources.
@Roach Warren finished make 7 roaches (you should be able to make 6 straight away)
go pressure your opponent with the roaches
The benefits of this include:
a) you get to put pressure on your opponent, and induce him to make mistakes early in the game
b) roaches shut down hellion harrass (and you can sometimes get a free win against someone going double factory, blue flame, and skipping on defense)
c) your presence at your opponent's front gives you scouting information (better than running zerglings up and down, since players can hide units when there's no pressure - defending a push means you will get to see all of your opponents units)
d) the roaches give you a safe window to drone up and maybe take a third
e) in emergencies when you're larva starved, roaches are an easy way to dump resources when you need an army quickly
And the main questions this begs are:
1: is it really not an all in
2: what Terran openings can it be considered bad against
3: how should Terran players see this coming, and how should they respond
4: how dependant on hatch first is the build (I don't open hatch first)
5: can it be used against Protoss, and what are the possible problems associated with that.
I'm not a very good player, so I appreciate input! I'm going to try this in my ZvT for a while and see how it goes, and if this thread doesn't die in the meantime I'll post some replays of it going wrong.
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I believe Sheth describes this exact build on one of Mr. Bitter's 12 weeks with the pros episodes.
edit: except he usually makes 5ish roaches iirc.
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This kinda reminds me of the same concept as stephanos ling pressure vs protoss, will take a look at this. even though the idea of roaches vs terran kinda sickens me, DRG is definitely one of the most inspirational zergs and i love the idea of being actively aggressive.... and with the number of hellion opening it makes sense
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
idt its the same timing but its the same essence as the dimaga one where they skip ling speed and favors early roach. This works pretty well vs hellion expands but dont overcommit, u can do damage till a tank is out normally unless there is a bunker tho.
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On October 03 2011 10:02 Angry_Fetus wrote:
I believe Sheth describes this exact build on one of Mr. Bitter's 12 weeks with the pros episodes.
edit: except he usually makes 5ish roaches iirc.
Yea, Sheth has been doing this for ages, and he does talk about it in an episode of 12 Weeks with the Pros.
Basic premise:
15 hatch
If you scout that T has taken his gas, a hellion opening is very likely
If you scout no tech-lab on the rax, then a hellion opening is almost certain
25 roach warren
28 double overlord
Roach Warren will finish as your first 2 injects pop off, and you can stroll across the map with 5-7 roaches - something that can be quite hard to defend with just hellions.
You will often do damage, and the roaches should give you some solid map control, allowing you to take a pretty quick third as you drone up.
The build is bad against tech lab openings because its easy for T to just make a marauder and own your roaches from behind a wall-in.
It's also pretty bad against fast expands because, in general, natural expansions will be defended with bunkers and marines - something roaches aren't particularly good against.
Against tech openings like banshees, you can often do big damage before the banshee is able to clean up the roaches.
And, obviously, vs standard hellion stuff, roaches are quite good.
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I too have taken notice of this, and love the way it gives me back the map from hellions. You just have to be careful if he tries to run for your drones when you push out.
You also have to demonstrate good multi-tasking while conducting your attack in order to transition well.
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On October 03 2011 10:26 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:02 Angry_Fetus wrote:
I believe Sheth describes this exact build on one of Mr. Bitter's 12 weeks with the pros episodes.
edit: except he usually makes 5ish roaches iirc. Yea, Sheth has been doing this for ages, and he does talk about it in an episode of 12 Weeks with the Pros. Basic premise: 15 hatch If you scout that T has taken his gas, a hellion opening is very likely If you scout no tech-lab on the rax, then a hellion opening is almost certain 25 roach warren 28 double overlord Roach Warren will finish as your first 2 injects pop off, and you can stroll across the map with 5-7 roaches - something that can be quite hard to defend with just hellions. You will often do damage, and the roaches should give you some solid map control, allowing you to take a pretty quick third as you drone up. The build is bad against tech lab openings because its easy for T to just make a marauder and own your roaches from behind a wall-in. It's also pretty bad against fast expands because, in general, natural expansions will be defended with bunkers and marines - something roaches aren't particularly good against. Against tech openings like banshees, you can often do big damage before the banshee is able to clean up the roaches. And, obviously, vs standard hellion stuff, roaches are quite good.
i agree with pretty much everything in this post, especially that it's bad against FE builds, namely 1 rax FE or 15CC (i think? haven't tried it). it sucks when you can't get a drone in his base or scout his gasses with an ovie though, because you don't know if he's 1 rax FE'ing or doing a tech opener, and you have to commit to this before you know in most cases.
but i think it can also be pretty good against a tech lab opening, a lot of times you can smash the depot down and get in and do damage, and at very least you force him to pull his mineral line to you and you can snipe a ton of repairing SCVs.
i think this goes without saying, but if anyone was wondering....don't attempt this against a 2 rax :D
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i remember watching the valenica matches with DRG against thorzain, but i forget when DRG put down his second hatch. i think its before the roaches pop out, but would anyone care to tell me the drone count? this computer im on doesnt have sc2 on it so i cant watch the reps 
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It's a shit coinflip build that only works against someone who decided to make only hellions. You're better off using July's 2 base Roach aggression build.
15hatch
15/16pool
17gas
2 queens, use both for injecting larva
drone until 28/28
roach warren
2 overlords
once roach warren is ready make enough roaches to get to close to 44 supply
metabolic speed right after gas is spent on roaches
drone behind it
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roach pressure works because roach is not larva intensive... So you can drone behind it pretty easily, unlike a baneling bust or w/e.
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A roach rush against a terran seems to me (a plat terran player) somewhat risky. That is not to say it is without its uses. As you say, roaches cripple hellion openings, set you up to handle mech, and can provide you with a decent early game contain.
Here's the problems as I see it: You cripple hellion openings and can outright win against FE builds, but against a 2-3 rax bio opener, you are done. You are well equiped to handle mech via a roach opener, but less able to harass a defended terran and less able to handle upgraded bio. Your roach opening gives you a contain, but at the cost of your tech.
All in all this makes (in my opinion anyway) the roach rush against terran a gamble. It will either pay off very well or cost you the game.
If I may reference a recent TvZ I played (will post a replay once I get home if I can find it) where I opened with a 3 rax marine with shield timing push. My goal with the build is super fast shields, fast marine production, into an attack while adding two more rax for more army and expanding.
Having scouted the zerg, I set my SCv to patrol in his natural hoping to spot the expand and delay it. When he hadn't expanded by the time I had all three rax completed, I went in for a look to see what he was up to. Found the roach warren and ran home. Bunker by my wall, managed to get 1 marauder out and in that bunker, held the push with nearly no losses. Now I have an army, a spare OC, and a zerg outside my wall that is behind on tech and can't come in. Use my 5 rax (adding one more tech lab) to pump marauders and marines, got the stim and shells, threw out two medivacs and pushed. Rolled the roaches and slings, tore through the spines and killed the zerg just as mutalisks were popping, which my marines ate up redily enough.
All rambling aside, I suppose my post is trying to answer your question thus: Roach openings are good against FE or Hellion openings, may overrun a Starport opening, but will lose pretty hard to bio openings.
Keeping in mind these are the observations of a Plat Terran...hope it helps.
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It's pretty easy to scout factory openings, though.. so rather than a hard build order, just play by the timings. You should be thinking about building a roach warren right about when your drone/ling/overlord is poking up their ramp and seeing what they have.
It's totally effective if you do it smartly, and if you do it blindly then its a coinflip. Be good, drone scout at 10, find out what you need to make!
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I do this a lot. People are wrong when they say its a coin-flip or that it's all in. You expand first, and save gas for roaches instead of getting ling speed. You ONLY do this if you scout gas first. This basically means that unless the terran opponent opens relatively standard, you are in a good position. At the very least, this sort of play reveals the terran hand.
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On October 03 2011 11:01 Ironsights wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A roach rush against a terran seems to me (a plat terran player) somewhat risky. That is not to say it is without its uses. As you say, roaches cripple hellion openings, set you up to handle mech, and can provide you with a decent early game contain.
Here's the problems as I see it: You cripple hellion openings and can outright win against FE builds, but against a 2-3 rax bio opener, you are done. You are well equiped to handle mech via a roach opener, but less able to harass a defended terran and less able to handle upgraded bio. Your roach opening gives you a contain, but at the cost of your tech.
All in all this makes (in my opinion anyway) the roach rush against terran a gamble. It will either pay off very well or cost you the game.
If I may reference a recent TvZ I played (will post a replay once I get home if I can find it) where I opened with a 3 rax marine with shield timing push. My goal with the build is super fast shields, fast marine production, into an attack while adding two more rax for more army and expanding.
Having scouted the zerg, I set my SCv to patrol in his natural hoping to spot the expand and delay it. When he hadn't expanded by the time I had all three rax completed, I went in for a look to see what he was up to. Found the roach warren and ran home. Bunker by my wall, managed to get 1 marauder out and in that bunker, held the push with nearly no losses. Now I have an army, a spare OC, and a zerg outside my wall that is behind on tech and can't come in. Use my 5 rax (adding one more tech lab) to pump marauders and marines, got the stim and shells, threw out two medivacs and pushed. Rolled the roaches and slings, tore through the spines and killed the zerg just as mutalisks were popping, which my marines ate up redily enough.
All rambling aside, I suppose my post is trying to answer your question thus: Roach openings are good against FE or Hellion openings, may overrun a Starport opening, but will lose pretty hard to bio openings.
Keeping in mind these are the observations of a Plat Terran...hope it helps.
To clarify, you are talking about experience against a 1base roach attack while DRG goes hatchfirst. I personally (low masters zerg) have really been favoring this recently although I hadn't refined the build properly so I usually ended up with about 6 roaches pushing. I found that this is very good in the current metagame, and can be very effective against any non-bio openings, and if they are doing some sort of bio opening you can contain them as roaches are quite good against marines in small numbers, and drone up and eventually transition into a ling/baneling style.
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On October 03 2011 11:12 Xanbatou wrote:
I do this a lot. People are wrong when they say its a coin-flip or that it's all in. You expand first, and save gas for roaches instead of getting ling speed. You ONLY do this if you scout gas first. This basically means that unless the terran opponent opens relatively standard, you are in a good position. At the very least, this sort of play reveals the terran hand.
Expansion first is correct, but OP is talking about a one base roach build, and considering you are spending 575/175 before you even start your hatchery then it's as conflip as it gets.
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On October 03 2011 09:57 barrykp wrote:Liquipedia has a page entitled Roach Pressure, but it is actually a 1-base, 7-roach rush. It also has an entry on a 2-hatch, 5-roach econ build attributed to Dimaga, which is quite similar to this. Either way here are the basics of what DRG did in his games: 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool @spawning pool finished make 2 Queens, 2 or 4 lings, and get Zergling speed. 28 make a Roach Warren + 2 overlords. Stop drone production and just pool resources. @Roach Warren finished make 7 roaches (you should be able to make 6 straight away) go pressure your opponent with the roaches
Actually, this build is already in Liquipedia, it's just under the Vs. Terran section instead of under  Roach Pressure.
It's called Expand Roach
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On October 03 2011 10:48 Joey Wheeler wrote:
It's a shit coinflip build that only works against someone who decided to make only hellions. You're better off using July's 2 base Roach aggression build.
15hatch
15/16pool
17gas
2 queens, use both for injecting larva
drone until 28/28
roach warren
2 overlords
once roach warren is ready make enough roaches to get to close to 44 supply
metabolic speed right after gas is spent on roaches
drone behind it
Considering DRG, a very good korean zerg, uses this strategy, I would hardly dismiss this as a "shitty coinflip build" without deep analysis. This isn't a coinflip because if you scout timings that are indicative of a hellion build, you make roaches, which are obviously very strong versus hellions.
This build order is just a basic refinement of the idea of "get an expansion, then early pressure with roaches while focusing on economy behind it". The execution obviously has to be ironed out, but I think the idea is very strong on its own and DRG has already shown its usage in high level games.
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On October 03 2011 11:24 H2OSno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:48 Joey Wheeler wrote:
It's a shit coinflip build that only works against someone who decided to make only hellions. You're better off using July's 2 base Roach aggression build.
15hatch
15/16pool
17gas
2 queens, use both for injecting larva
drone until 28/28
roach warren
2 overlords
once roach warren is ready make enough roaches to get to close to 44 supply
metabolic speed right after gas is spent on roaches
drone behind it
Considering DRG, a very good korean zerg, uses this strategy, I would hardly dismiss this as a "shitty coinflip build" without deep analysis. This isn't a coinflip because if you scout timings that are indicative of a hellion build, you make roaches, which are obviously very strong versus hellions. This build order is just a basic refinement of the idea of "get an expansion, then early pressure with roaches while focusing on economy behind it". The execution obviously has to be ironed out, but I think the idea is very strong on its own and DRG has already shown its usage in high level games.
oh fuck, I completely misread the OP and thought you were talking about 1 base. my bad
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Roach/speedling aggression is very nice in early-game ZvT - if you break through the wall, and he didn't 2rax, you probably win. The problem is, 2rax destroys it, so you pretty much have to scout for that.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but since you need to scout (most likely drone unless close air spawn), and b4 the wall off is finished, you should leave your base at 9/10, after olord is started? Or is there a different scout timing? According to Liquipedia, by the time you would do 15 gas, you should have scouted if he's gassing or not, which to me implies a 9 scout as opposed to a later timing...
Thoughts?
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EPT
