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On October 11 2011 17:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. If a protoss player is stupid enough to have his tech or gateways all in one place he shouldnt be fucking allowed to play starcraft 2 -__- You can literally put all your tech and gateways ANYWHERE, why would you put them in a way that 1 scan can tell fuck all about what you are doing -.-? Plus, robo builds are awesome, and most expo -> robo builds are safe except vs fringe cases. The problems in the matchup, for the protoss side anyway, is not in scouting anymore... The matchup needs work but not in that regard. Also ledarsi's post is awesome. Zdragon's posts too. Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:03 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 13:51 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:36 NaturalHacks wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting? most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away... the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late. But we are talking about a very limited period of time here. The first 7-9 minutes. That's when most all-ins push out. It is also when the fast expand builds decide to go down the ramp and set up some bunkers. As a terran you are asking "did he expand or did he get a lot of production buildings?" If your worried about a push, drop more bunkers. If it looks like the protoss is in full macro mode, a few less. My worst fear in PvT is scouting them last and being unable to get into their main. If I don't in, I feel forced to go one gate-robo. The stalker push poke is not good enough. You obviously have never been on the receiving end of forcefields. I'm pretty much convinced that bunkers aren't even useful as a structure in TvP anymore. Yeah I really dont see a reason why it should be so easy for protoss to stop you from repairing bunkers. Yeah, if we removed that, terrans winrate would go waaaaaaaaay up, but dont you think thats retarded? That a big reason protoss wins games is because of retarded allin builds.......? Matchup needs total overhaul. Protoss allins are *way* too easy to do and get lucky with, ghosts are a joke that counter everything and marauders ruin both TvP and TvT.
Why are you so sexy?
but yeah I agree, the TvP matchup is really really strange and pretty much hasn't changed much since beta except for a brief 1 week experimentation with Mech that happened during MC's rise and a stint of heavy marine ghost instead of heavy marauder.
In beta TvP was actually fun because weird strats worked like Marine banshee and sky terran and stuff like that as well as mech actually being scary for protoss.
All we need is a way to make Protoss fear mech without changing TvZ in any way.
(Maybe by making Mechanical units do their bonus damage to all Protoss shields as well as their base damage but move EMP to require a fusion core to be upgraded and the Marauder to be removed.)
I find the Marauder doesn't co-exist well with the Siege Tank anyways despite how well rounded people think the Terran army is. They both are just ground damage vs armored except one is mobile cheap and one is immobile but splashes. Just doesn't make sense to me.
What Terran really needs is Ground to Armored Air and not depend on vikings because right now vikings are the reason most people hate Mech vs Mech because it's all a fight for air control unlike in BW where there was many different ways to gain spotting or to break a position with use of mass drops on a sieged position which made the matchup fun because there was always constant action despite both armies being "immobile". Also needing Vikings to deal with VR and Carriers in sc2 sucks because it takes away from your ground army so even if you can manage to kill the air your just left with nothing to counter a mass warp in of ground units.
I've been playing Mech in TvP from mid beta till the last nerf to hellions because I finally said that was the last straw and switched to bio. So I have TONS of experience when it comes to Mech TvP although not at the highest of levels unfortunately. high diamond - mid/high master league.
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On October 11 2011 17:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:
You obviously have never been on the receiving end of forcefields. I'm pretty much convinced that bunkers aren't even useful as a structure in TvP anymore. Yeah I really dont see a reason why it should be so easy for protoss to stop you from repairing bunkers. Yeah, if we removed that, terrans winrate would go waaaaaaaaay up, but dont you think thats retarded? That a big reason protoss wins games is because of retarded allin builds.......? Matchup needs total overhaul. Protoss allins are *way* too easy to do and get lucky with, ghosts are a joke that counter everything and marauders ruin both TvP and TvT.
To kinda tie in this thought with the OP, if we could actually use tanks as an effective means of defense in TvP, the match up might be a bit more stable. It would greatly reduce the window in which bunkers become "useless," while discouraging the "deathball" tactic by making a pure frontal assault suicidal without a huge economic lead (like in PvZ). However, I don't think this is an option until P gets slightly better/reliable harass unit.
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On October 11 2011 17:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. If a protoss player is stupid enough to have his tech or gateways all in one place he shouldnt be fucking allowed to play starcraft 2 -__- You can literally put all your tech and gateways ANYWHERE, why would you put them in a way that 1 scan can tell fuck all about what you are doing -.-? Plus, robo builds are awesome, and most expo -> robo builds are safe except vs fringe cases. The problems in the matchup, for the protoss side anyway, is not in scouting anymore... The matchup needs work but not in that regard. Also ledarsi's post is awesome. Zdragon's posts too. Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:03 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 13:51 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:36 NaturalHacks wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting? most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away... the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late. But we are talking about a very limited period of time here. The first 7-9 minutes. That's when most all-ins push out. It is also when the fast expand builds decide to go down the ramp and set up some bunkers. As a terran you are asking "did he expand or did he get a lot of production buildings?" If your worried about a push, drop more bunkers. If it looks like the protoss is in full macro mode, a few less. My worst fear in PvT is scouting them last and being unable to get into their main. If I don't in, I feel forced to go one gate-robo. The stalker push poke is not good enough. You obviously have never been on the receiving end of forcefields. I'm pretty much convinced that bunkers aren't even useful as a structure in TvP anymore. Yeah I really dont see a reason why it should be so easy for protoss to stop you from repairing bunkers. Yeah, if we removed that, terrans winrate would go waaaaaaaaay up, but dont you think thats retarded? That a big reason protoss wins games is because of retarded allin builds.......? Matchup needs total overhaul. Protoss allins are *way* too easy to do and get lucky with, ghosts are a joke that counter everything and marauders ruin both TvP and TvT.
To be respectful, I agree with you that letting everything be revealed in one scan is likely bad on the protoss part. However, if you place tech structures on the outskirts of our base, you are risking losing them to drops later on. There is nothing worse than having 4 marauders drop, snipe your robo and leave as your stalkers kill one of them. I try to play for the long term game and avoid placements like this. Also with really small mains, like xel'naga caverns to tuck the tech away and keep it safe.
So in short, I know its going to be scanned, but I would rather that than risk losing is to a well timed drop eight minutes later.
But I agree with you one the rest. I just didn't think I was going to get far with the argument "nerf the marauder and ghost". I was advocating for smaller changes, rather than a complete overhaul.
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On October 11 2011 18:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 17:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. If a protoss player is stupid enough to have his tech or gateways all in one place he shouldnt be fucking allowed to play starcraft 2 -__- You can literally put all your tech and gateways ANYWHERE, why would you put them in a way that 1 scan can tell fuck all about what you are doing -.-? Plus, robo builds are awesome, and most expo -> robo builds are safe except vs fringe cases. The problems in the matchup, for the protoss side anyway, is not in scouting anymore... The matchup needs work but not in that regard. Also ledarsi's post is awesome. Zdragon's posts too. On October 11 2011 14:03 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 13:51 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:36 NaturalHacks wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:
[quote]
pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting? most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away... the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late. But we are talking about a very limited period of time here. The first 7-9 minutes. That's when most all-ins push out. It is also when the fast expand builds decide to go down the ramp and set up some bunkers. As a terran you are asking "did he expand or did he get a lot of production buildings?" If your worried about a push, drop more bunkers. If it looks like the protoss is in full macro mode, a few less. My worst fear in PvT is scouting them last and being unable to get into their main. If I don't in, I feel forced to go one gate-robo. The stalker push poke is not good enough. You obviously have never been on the receiving end of forcefields. I'm pretty much convinced that bunkers aren't even useful as a structure in TvP anymore. Yeah I really dont see a reason why it should be so easy for protoss to stop you from repairing bunkers. Yeah, if we removed that, terrans winrate would go waaaaaaaaay up, but dont you think thats retarded? That a big reason protoss wins games is because of retarded allin builds.......? Matchup needs total overhaul. Protoss allins are *way* too easy to do and get lucky with, ghosts are a joke that counter everything and marauders ruin both TvP and TvT. To be respectful, I agree with you that letting everything be revealed in one scan is likely bad on the protoss part. However, if you place tech structures on the outskirts of our base, you are risking losing them to drops later on. There is nothing worse than having 4 marauders drop, snipe your robo and leave as your stalkers kill one of them. I try to play for the long term game and avoid placements like this. Also with really small mains, like xel'naga caverns to tuck the tech away and keep it safe. So in short, I know its going to be scanned, but I would rather that than risk losing is to a well timed drop eight minutes later. But I agree with you one the rest. I just didn't think I was going to get far with the argument "nerf the marauder and ghost". I was advocating for smaller changes, rather than a complete overhaul.
Or Protoss could put important tech buildings where the army normally is, around the natural. Even so, there's a lot of ways to spread out tech or to hide it from scans. If your goal is to surprise your opponent, the long term game isn't something you're worried about (as far as your clutch hidden tech is concerned).
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Or you could split the tech between the main and the natural.
Put the Robotics Facility in the main and the Robo Bay in the natural.
Still, a good build should not rely a lot on not having the tech structures scouted by the opponent.
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I feel TvT is heading the same way as TvP unfortunately with the last hellion nerf mech play has become pretty bad. gj blizzard on destroying terran
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On October 11 2011 20:12 Thezzy wrote:
Or you could split the tech between the main and the natural.
Put the Robotics Facility in the main and the Robo Bay in the natural.
Still, a good build should not rely a lot on not having the tech structures scouted by the opponent.
that's actually kinkda more of a risk as far as scouting goes, as scanning the robo at a time where it is normally inactive means that if you scan either the main or the nat you read colo.
It is however better to spread tech against drops, so 1 dropship can't kill all ur tech at once.
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On October 11 2011 17:58 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 17:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. If a protoss player is stupid enough to have his tech or gateways all in one place he shouldnt be fucking allowed to play starcraft 2 -__- You can literally put all your tech and gateways ANYWHERE, why would you put them in a way that 1 scan can tell fuck all about what you are doing -.-? Plus, robo builds are awesome, and most expo -> robo builds are safe except vs fringe cases. The problems in the matchup, for the protoss side anyway, is not in scouting anymore... The matchup needs work but not in that regard. Also ledarsi's post is awesome. Zdragon's posts too. On October 11 2011 14:03 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 13:51 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:36 NaturalHacks wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:
[quote]
pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting? most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away... the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late. But we are talking about a very limited period of time here. The first 7-9 minutes. That's when most all-ins push out. It is also when the fast expand builds decide to go down the ramp and set up some bunkers. As a terran you are asking "did he expand or did he get a lot of production buildings?" If your worried about a push, drop more bunkers. If it looks like the protoss is in full macro mode, a few less. My worst fear in PvT is scouting them last and being unable to get into their main. If I don't in, I feel forced to go one gate-robo. The stalker push poke is not good enough. You obviously have never been on the receiving end of forcefields. I'm pretty much convinced that bunkers aren't even useful as a structure in TvP anymore. Yeah I really dont see a reason why it should be so easy for protoss to stop you from repairing bunkers. Yeah, if we removed that, terrans winrate would go waaaaaaaaay up, but dont you think thats retarded? That a big reason protoss wins games is because of retarded allin builds.......? Matchup needs total overhaul. Protoss allins are *way* too easy to do and get lucky with, ghosts are a joke that counter everything and marauders ruin both TvP and TvT. Why are you so sexy? but yeah I agree, the TvP matchup is really really strange and pretty much hasn't changed much since beta except for a brief 1 week experimentation with Mech that happened during MC's rise and a stint of heavy marine ghost instead of heavy marauder. In beta TvP was actually fun because weird strats worked like Marine banshee and sky terran and stuff like that as well as mech actually being scary for protoss. All we need is a way to make Protoss fear mech without changing TvZ in any way. (Maybe by making Mechanical units do their bonus damage to all Protoss shields as well as their base damage but move EMP to require a fusion core to be upgraded and the Marauder to be removed.) I find the Marauder doesn't co-exist well with the Siege Tank anyways despite how well rounded people think the Terran army is. They both are just ground damage vs armored except one is mobile cheap and one is immobile but splashes. Just doesn't make sense to me. What Terran really needs is Ground to Armored Air and not depend on vikings because right now vikings are the reason most people hate Mech vs Mech because it's all a fight for air control unlike in BW where there was many different ways to gain spotting or to break a position with use of mass drops on a sieged position which made the matchup fun because there was always constant action despite both armies being "immobile". Also needing Vikings to deal with VR and Carriers in sc2 sucks because it takes away from your ground army so even if you can manage to kill the air your just left with nothing to counter a mass warp in of ground units. I've been playing Mech in TvP from mid beta till the last nerf to hellions because I finally said that was the last straw and switched to bio. So I have TONS of experience when it comes to Mech TvP although not at the highest of levels unfortunately. high diamond - mid/high master league.
Wow I'm so happy I found this post. I completely agree with you, awesome post! I really, really, really hope Blizzard reads this post, so they know what to do --> Completely overhaul TvP match up, make mech viable and PLEASE REMOVE THE MARAUDER AND VIKING.
When people say they enjoy TvT, because it looks so much like chess, I get really pissed off. TvT in Starcraft 2 is just two sieged up lines and a fight about air control, hardly anyone makes a move. Sometimes the Korean Terrans play sexy styles to mix it up and that makes it entertaining, but for most games, especially on ladder, TvT is a boring standoff between two siege tank lines with Viking support. Because of Vikings and towers, it's hard to pull off drops and because you can't drop, it's all about breaking eachother's siege lines, but nobody wants to take the risk, so you get a sit and wait. TvT in Brood War was far more entertaining and you had to make far more strategic decisions (that's real chess for you!), you could force your opponent to move his ground army with strategic drops, allowing you to place your army at a strategic position, etc. The Viking should be removed and replaced with a ground unit that has good anti-air, kind of like the Goliath in Brood War.
I really hope Blizzard reads your post mate! Great work on your awesome post! +1 
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killing lurkers without tanks is now nothing hard to do, and the vultures have an anti goon weapon, but to use it you have to be sneaky or suicidal.
And why should the terran play t3 heavy if the toss plays t1+t3 ? For me it totally sounds like bio with t3 support what the toss is doing, so just like the terran.
And the tank nerf by the way was because of tvt to make marines more viable, so it wouldn't be tank viking anymore.
But i agree that it made chargelots to strong against tanks, but they are terrible strong against marauders aswell even stronger, but they don't deal friendly fire.
Mech only is like playing robo only or t2 only as zerg (hydra muta corrupter  ). But yeah mech can work its just totally different from the terran play people used like beta, so you would start from 0.
A zerg switching to terran probably have better chances on being successful with mech, then a terran. But Blizzard wanted to encourage multiple units use, thats why there are conters to every production facility so to say. Thats why the xvz matchups are so well liked, as zerg units are usally good against everything if the position is in their favor.
Anyway tryed mech for 100 wins (i switch race every 100 wins hehe). Its really hard in the early game. But once you have your composition it works fairly nice. (its nothing for below 3 base though you need the 6 gas) My biggest problem was the eco mode the other races could go into. And to learn that i have to take workers with my army as i don't need them mining minerals.
Fighting against a toss works pretty much like in bw, just that you don't have spidermines and the tanks are 50% weaker, and the goons can teleport, but the toss doesn't have stasis and that a ht put 4 of your goliath to 50% healths fpr 50 energy. Basically you want the science vessel for defense matrix and emp. Or in sc2 words, the raven and the ghost. And with 1 raven and 3 ghosts i would say a 150 supply army (well 5-10 workers in it) is still considered mech . And with those 2 + the workers saying mech doesn't need micro is just wrong.
Anyway have fun trying out mech it works against every race, but you might need 100-300 wins before you are at your old level. (i actually got better with terran with mech only) And remember mech didn't mean factory only units in bw.
@Raiznhell you missed some bw tvt changes lately, they mostly copy the tank viking style now . (well it was used before sc2 came out, but not as regularly as it is now)
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On October 11 2011 16:41 ledarsi wrote:
Firstly, Warp Gate. There is a tremendous difference in the strength of Protoss before and after this upgrade finishes because it makes every gateway produce units faster. It can also, coincidentally (and less significantly) allow them to be warped in anywhere. As a result, the gateway units must be balanced for both build times, which is categorically impossible. Remedy: Make warp gates have a longer cooldown than the corresponding unit's gateway build time, but they can be warped in anywhere. This also creates tension between warp gates and gateways, and gives Protoss players a reason to switch back and forth.
While I can see what you're getting at let me just run through a few numbers:
Reactor - 50/50 50 seconds (requires just a barracks I believe, at least according to liquipedia, no additional tech structures)
Warp Gate tech - 50/50 160 seconds (requires a 150/0 50 second cybernetics core to research)
Marine - 45HP, 50/0, 25 seconds, 1 supply, ranged attack, can be built 2 at a time with reactor
Zealot - 100HP/50 Shield, 100/0, 38 seconds (28 second cooldown on warpgate), 2 supply, melee attack, built 1 at a time
but can be built anywhere
Quick comparison of speed upgrades:
Stimpack - 100/100, 170 seconds, researched from a 50/25, 25 second tech lab with same requirements as reactor. Increases speed of marine by 1.125 for 15 seconds at a cost of 10HP. Standard early part of build.
Charge - 200/200, 140 seconds, researched from a 150/100 50 second Twilight Council which requires the aforementioned 150/0 50 second cybernetics core. Increases speed base by 0.5 and adds charge ability, 3.5 second speed boost to 6.05. However less utility for map movement than stim, essentially a combat upgrade. Not as standard early on as alternatives are Robotics facility or Stargate, distinct tech paths.
This is just an example. My point is that I would guess that if you do too much to warp gates its going to be absurdly hard for a Protoss to not be overwhelmingly out-produced early game by a Terran whose base units have a ranged attack rather than melee. Reactors already out-produce Warpgate Protoss in terms of raw supply by three seconds unless the Protoss blows all his chrono on his gates; which means less probes and you get out-incomed by a MULEing Terran. If you just start extending the cool-down even further on Warpgates to beyond that of a basic Gateway then you're going to be looking towards a situation where a Terran will be approaching four marines in output per barracks for every zealot you warp in.
I doubt thats what we want considering the current problem seems to be "Terran is really strong early on and hard to hold but Protoss dominates late game".
Disclosure: Above is all theorycrafting based on figures from liquipedia.
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someone earlier was saying it is hard to balance for the top-teir only, let alone everyone, I agree, however
is making protoss more difficult to play (apm wise) not a good way of implementing more difficulty at the lower end of the protoss skill spectrum without effecting the higher teirs? for example someone was saying charge could be casted like stim, you could buff it a bit aswell but it would require protoss to constantly micro like the terran has to with MM (vs chargelots) tieng up both players apm rather than zealots being able to be essentially (dont burn me here!) 1-a'd while the terran has to continuosly kite.
maybe have charge hit for double damage but it needs to be c-clicked individually on units and grabbing the whole ball and charging 1 unit would blow your cool-down and be overkill
now that could lead to some MKP-esk WOW micro as players a-move the zealots then grab chunks at a time and charge individual units in a fashion similar to marine splitting
im sure there is a way to buff protoss at the highest teir while implementing more apm/skill/multitasking into protoss play. they sound like they go well together
all and all i think the best route is,
protoss buff's but more skill required to use them and nerf of a-move god-units (collosus, chargelots). i think it can be done and is not unreasonable
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On October 12 2011 02:22 NaturalHacks wrote:
someone earlier was saying it is hard to balance for the top-teir only, let alone everyone, I agree, however
is making protoss more difficult to play (apm wise) not a good way of implementing more difficulty at the lower end of the protoss skill spectrum without effecting the higher teirs? for example someone was saying charge could be casted like stim, you could buff it a bit aswell but it would require protoss to constantly micro like the terran has to with MM (vs chargelots) tieng up both players apm rather than zealots being able to be essentially (dont burn me here!) 1-a'd while the terran has to continuosly kite.
maybe have charge hit for double damage but it needs to be c-clicked individually on units and grabbing the whole ball and charging 1 unit would blow your cool-down and be overkill
now that could lead to some MKP-esk WOW micro as players a-move the zealots then grab chunks at a time and charge individual units in a fashion similar to marine splitting
im sure there is a way to buff protoss at the highest teir while implementing more apm/skill/multitasking into protoss play. they sound like they go well together
all and all i think the best route is,
protoss buff's but more skill required to use them and nerf of a-move god-units (collosus, chargelots). i think it can be done and is not unreasonable
I would be far happier with chargelots if they just had a raw speed upgrade or an ability that simply made them go faster for a set period of time. You are correct that they are simply an A move unit and once charge pops, they are off to do their own thing. Worse off, if you attempt to micro them after charge pops, it cancels out the charge and they move at normal speed. It would reward the player who controls them better, must like zerglings. It would also keep them from charging off single file as they see the terran units, getting focused down one at a time by the unit AI.
And to be clear, I don't want them to go the same speed as charge. Just slightly faster than a stim marine for a period of time. Just enough to punch them in the face with laser-fists.
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Lets pray blizzard comes to their senses in HotS and re-works TvP because atm its just a pain. If they dont im probably switching race
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I've recently switched from Terran to Random, and I gotta say, after getting my Protoss feet back under me (Was mid masters 4-5 months ago as strictly toss), I have found 20 nexus->4-gate robo or 20 nexus->5-6 gate w/charge has been doing beautifully against the 1/1/1 composition. With good pokes with your first stalkers, it is also easy to see early aggression coming, and cut probes and build more units. Just my thoughts, PvT is my favorite of the nine matchups right now, little difficult, but so rewarding!
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On October 11 2011 23:57 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 16:41 ledarsi wrote:
Firstly, Warp Gate. There is a tremendous difference in the strength of Protoss before and after this upgrade finishes because it makes every gateway produce units faster. It can also, coincidentally (and less significantly) allow them to be warped in anywhere. As a result, the gateway units must be balanced for both build times, which is categorically impossible. Remedy: Make warp gates have a longer cooldown than the corresponding unit's gateway build time, but they can be warped in anywhere. This also creates tension between warp gates and gateways, and gives Protoss players a reason to switch back and forth.
While I can see what you're getting at let me just run through a few numbers: Reactor - 50/50 50 seconds (requires just a barracks I believe, at least according to liquipedia, no additional tech structures) Warp Gate tech - 50/50 160 seconds (requires a 150/0 50 second cybernetics core to research) Marine - 45HP, 50/0, 25 seconds, 1 supply, ranged attack, can be built 2 at a time with reactor Zealot - 100HP/50 Shield, 100/0, 38 seconds (28 second cooldown on warpgate), 2 supply, melee attack, built 1 at a time but can be built anywhere Quick comparison of speed upgrades: Stimpack - 50/25, 170 seconds, researched from a 50/25, 25 second tech lab with same requirements as reactor. Increases speed of marine by 1.125 for 15 seconds at a cost of 10HP. Standard early part of build. Charge - 200/200, 140 seconds, researched from a 150/100 50 second Twilight Council which requires the aforementioned 150/0 50 second cybernetics core. Increases speed base by 0.5 and adds charge ability, 3.5 second speed boost to 6.05. However less utility for map movement than stim, essentially a combat upgrade. Not as standard early on as alternatives are Robotics facility or Stargate, distinct tech paths. This is just an example. My point is that I would guess that if you do too much to warp gates its going to be absurdly hard for a Protoss to not be overwhelmingly out-produced early game by a Terran whose base units have a ranged attack rather than melee. Reactors already out-produce Warpgate Protoss in terms of raw supply by three seconds unless the Protoss blows all his chrono on his gates; which means less probes and you get out-incomed by a MULEing Terran. If you just start extending the cool-down even further on Warpgates to beyond that of a basic Gateway then you're going to be looking towards a situation where a Terran will be approaching four marines in output per barracks for every zealot you warp in. I doubt thats what we want considering the current problem seems to be "Terran is really strong early on and hard to hold but Protoss dominates late game". Disclosure: Above is all theorycrafting based on figures from liquipedia.
First of all, stim is 100/100. Second of all, late game terran is still favored because of ghosts and the strength of vikings against colossi.
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On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:
I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark.
God your view completely echoes my own.
TvP is boring and then Protoss complain that Terran only use MM.... well what else is there?
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2011 03:04 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:06 Reborn8u wrote:
I totally agree with the op. I play quite a bit of terran and toss, and the match up is barely a shadow of how cool it was in BW. Putting any balance talk aside, the fact that everything from protoss counters tanks (charge,blink,immortals,voids) and the synergy of MMM, your right that it is very unlikely we'll see anything different in the near future. From the protoss point of view, I really miss arbiters and reavers. But yea the warp gate and the poopy tanks in sc2 definitely ruined such a beautiful match up.
Like the op, I sincerely hope we get a severe overhaul of the races. But honestly, I really don't like TvZ in sc2 either. The matchup seems ridiculous, 9 out of 10 times it comes down to either rushing the zergs fast expand (bunker, hellion or some other all in), or doing a 2 base tank marine timing push.
The results of these pretty much decide the game. It may go on for 15 more minutes, but was decided when these things either succeeded or failed. The zerg either defends well and gets out of control macro wise, or crippled by the 10-12 minute mark.
God your view completely echoes my own.
TvP is boring and then Protoss complain that Terran only use MM.... well what else is there?
^ yesssss i totally agree.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
the people who disagree with King Jinro and the OP are most likely people who never played BW or never make workers such that every game they play is just a blindly hitting a timing.
Tanks are super awful vs protoss at the moment the base dmg is so low and i belive the tank nerf was mostly around the fact the game was balanced around maps like steps of war which is just wrong.
If tanks did a touch more dmg then banelings might become very useless is probably the worry then in the end people might need lurkers back to deal with bio and the colosus is such a stupid unit it rewards people who have no skill so much so think about it siege tanks take quite alot of understanding and experience to use tbh well to use well.
Collosus you just right click super easy to micro.
Helions - maruders and banshees seriously need to be looked at if not removed and bring back the vulture. i would love to see the maruder and banshee removed from the game so bad and i am a Terran player!!
Colosus - void ray may need looked at and i personally dont understand why stalkers have blink why not just have the dragoon back and maybe the corseer to deal with broodlords or something maybe red archons with malestorm It feels like immortals are only there because of roaches for me sometimes and to some extend wierd maruder all ins. where you FF your ramp to get an immortal out but they stupidly hard counter mech and if they go immortal void ray speed lot its painful you just _need_ emp or you loose your army for frree but they can hit so many timmings where you just cant afford them properly without sacing alot of stuff.
banelings and roaches / hydras and infestors might need looked at
i dont think the game really has a solid meta game
TvZ is by far the most interesting and best matchup in the game at the moment
TvT is broken by marauders at the momennt the smallest part of being unsiged you loose and viking wars are increibly irritating.
TvP is so stupidly lame at the moment. I dont understand why protoss complain about imba recently they are super strong they have got super greedy as artosis says and complain about 111 all the time. The amount of protoss 1 gate expo vs zerg confueses me recently.
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I don't even know why anyone would want to play mech against toss PERIOD. You're basically putting yourself at a disadvantage at the beginning of the game. Everything about mech in sc2 just seems so freaking fragile. Tanks feel like poop, immobility strength with no other pay off. I've played mech in tvp for the longest time; 1500 masters for anyone curious and it just doesn't work against TOSS that know how to abuse the immobility of mech. Everything about protoss counters tanks, which essentially is the backbone of your army.
Ever tried defending more then 3 bases against blinkstalker collosus? They dont even have to attack your main army. The only map I would EVER EVER play mech on is shakarus and even then you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
I started playing bio again and its like night and day how far more effective BIO is. Bio is a bit harder to play but why play mech?
makes me : (
if you really want someone's opinion on mech try talking to avilo. I'm pretty sure he played mech in all matchups way before goody or koreans did
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On October 13 2011 08:05 ChrisGraphex wrote:
I don't even know why anyone would want to play mech against toss PERIOD. You're basically putting yourself at a disadvantage at the beginning of the game. Everything about mech in sc2 just seems so freaking fragile. Tanks feel like poop, immobility strength with no other pay off. I've played mech in tvp for the longest time; 1500 masters for anyone curious and it just doesn't work against TOSS that know how to abuse the immobility of mech. Everything about protoss counters tanks, which essentially is the backbone of your army.
Ever tried defending more then 3 bases against blinkstalker collosus? They dont even have to attack your main army. The only map I would EVER EVER play mech on is shakarus and even then you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
I started playing bio again and its like night and day how far more effective BIO is. Bio is a bit harder to play but why play mech?
makes me : (
if you really want someone's opinion on mech try talking to avilo. I'm pretty sure he played mech in all matchups way before goody or koreans did
You missed the point of the thread, we all know that Mech is god awful in that MU right now.
THe point of the thread is to say Blizz needs to rehaul the MU with balance changes to make for a more interesting MU. One of the possible ways of doing this is to make the Tank useful in TvP again.
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EPT
