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On October 11 2011 13:24 Black Gun wrote:
if things remain the same like they are, both sides will continue to whine and claim that the other side has it so much better. as i described earlier, i think that the tvp matchup is fundamentally screwed - and i believe that both sides need to stop being selfish and ignorant and acknowledge the mutual phases of over-/underpoweredness. if both sides come to the same conclusions about what has to be done to fix the matchup, it would be so so much easier to convince blizzard to act. if we dont, Protoss will remain extinct in the gsl, gold- to masters-terrans are gonna continue to despair over lategame tvp while you tosses go slit against all the early game shennanigans we throw at you. is this really how it should be?
Late game? I can't even find an opening before the 10 minute mark against most common P builds. 
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On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal.
how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting?
most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away...
the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late.
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On October 11 2011 13:21 zdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game. I wish people would stop bringing up this point. If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most.
By reliable, I mean scouting that cannot be denied and provides information on exactly what the terran is doing. The scan is the most reliable scouting in the game and cannot be stopped. All other forms, observers, overseers, stalker pokes and the like can be denied. And the cost of scan scouting is potential income, while both protoss and zerg have to pay up front from their scouting. It may seem minor, but this is what makes 1-1-1 so powerful. One of the main reasons is that it looks like a 2 or 1 rax fast expand. If the protoss can't get into your main, they are flying blind until you expand or push out with a ton of units. Or they can spend a lot of gas and get an observer.
A lot of pros have talked about this. Idra, Painuser, Liquid Tyler and other have all wanted ways to "pay for information". Right now, terran appears to have the best option because they do not need to spend or harvest gas get this scouting information. It doesn't have to be prefect information, only the kind that you can rely on.
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On October 11 2011 13:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:21 zdragon wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game. I wish people would stop bringing up this point. If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most. By reliable, I mean scouting that cannot be denied and provides information on exactly what the terran is doing. The scan is the most reliable scouting in the game and cannot be stopped. All other forms, observers, overseers, stalker pokes and the like can be denied. And the cost of scan scouting is potential income, while both protoss and zerg have to pay up front from their scouting. It may seem minor, but this is what makes 1-1-1 so powerful. One of the main reasons is that it looks like a 2 or 1 rax fast expand. If the protoss can't get into your main, they are flying blind until you expand or push out with a ton of units. Or they can spend a lot of gas and get an observer. A lot of pros have talked about this. Idra, Painuser, Liquid Tyler and other have all wanted ways to "pay for information". Right now, terran appears to have the best option because they do not need to spend or harvest gas get this scouting information. It doesn't have to be prefect information, only the kind that you can rely on.
but you cant rely on the information of one single scan. he can have hidden buildings anywhere. yes, it is information and i totally agree that its better than the scouting options P or Z have at this point in the game, but it's still far from reliable...
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On October 11 2011 13:36 NaturalHacks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting? most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away... the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late.
But we are talking about a very limited period of time here. The first 7-9 minutes. That's when most all-ins push out. It is also when the fast expand builds decide to go down the ramp and set up some bunkers. As a terran you are asking "did he expand or did he get a lot of production buildings?" If your worried about a push, drop more bunkers. If it looks like the protoss is in full macro mode, a few less.
My worst fear in PvT is scouting them last and being unable to get into their main. If I don't in, I feel forced to go one gate-robo. The stalker push poke is not good enough.
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On October 11 2011 13:24 Black Gun wrote:
if things remain the same like they are, both sides will continue to whine and claim that the other side has it so much better. as i described earlier, i think that the tvp matchup is fundamentally screwed - and i believe that both sides need to stop being selfish and ignorant and acknowledge the mutual phases of over-/underpoweredness. if both sides come to the same conclusions about what has to be done to fix the matchup, it would be so so much easier to convince blizzard to act. if we dont, Protoss will remain extinct in the gsl, gold- to masters-terrans are gonna continue to despair over lategame tvp while you tosses go slit against all the early game shennanigans we throw at you. is this really how it should be?
While this is a nice idea, I don't think it's realistic or particularly useful. I'm happy to acknowledge that the lategame deathball is difficult to deal with if you don't have MVP's ghost control, but I don't think that's a fixable issue.
Balancing at the top level is evidently hard enough; balancing all the way down is exponentially more difficult, to the point of being outright impossible. What you're basically asking for is for everyone to:
1) get along, so far so good
2) appreciate the other race's difficulties, at every level of play
3) come up with ways to alleviate/balance those infinitely varied and contradictory difficulties, sometimes to the detriment of their own race
4) agree on 3, again sometimes to the detriment of their own race
5) submit it to blizzard.
It's a good dream, but... dude... lol.
Sure, I'm a protoss, so I'm biased, but at the same time I feel like our problems are the ones that are most apparent at the level where blizzard should be balancing, and that's about as much as you're ever going to get out of the discussion.
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On October 11 2011 13:55 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:24 Black Gun wrote:
if things remain the same like they are, both sides will continue to whine and claim that the other side has it so much better. as i described earlier, i think that the tvp matchup is fundamentally screwed - and i believe that both sides need to stop being selfish and ignorant and acknowledge the mutual phases of over-/underpoweredness. if both sides come to the same conclusions about what has to be done to fix the matchup, it would be so so much easier to convince blizzard to act. if we dont, Protoss will remain extinct in the gsl, gold- to masters-terrans are gonna continue to despair over lategame tvp while you tosses go slit against all the early game shennanigans we throw at you. is this really how it should be?
While this is a nice idea, I don't think it's realistic or particularly useful. I'm happy to acknowledge that the lategame deathball is difficult to deal with if you don't have MVP's ghost control, but I don't think that's a fixable issue. Balancing at the top level is evidently hard enough; balancing all the way down is exponentially more difficult, to the point of being outright impossible. What you're basically asking for is for everyone to: 1) get along, so far so good 2) appreciate the other race's difficulties, at every level of play 3) come up with ways to alleviate/balance those infinitely varied and contradictory difficulties, sometimes to the detriment of their own race 4) agree on 3, again sometimes to the detriment of their own race 5) submit it to blizzard. It's a good dream, but... dude... lol. Sure, I'm a protoss, so I'm biased, but at the same time I feel like our problems are the ones that are most apparent at the level where blizzard should be balancing, and that's about as much as you're ever going to get out of the discussion.
i think i didnt make the main point of my lengthy post clear: i believe that giving terran other lategame options in tvp than MMMVG would make it much easier to find a good balance for the top level of play while simultaneously not fucking over one of the races on lower levels. i agree with you that is is probably impossible to achieve a good balance for both skill regions in MMMVG vs deathball tvp.
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On October 11 2011 13:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:36 NaturalHacks wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting? most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away... the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late. But we are talking about a very limited period of time here. The first 7-9 minutes. That's when most all-ins push out. It is also when the fast expand builds decide to go down the ramp and set up some bunkers. As a terran you are asking "did he expand or did he get a lot of production buildings?" If your worried about a push, drop more bunkers. If it looks like the protoss is in full macro mode, a few less. My worst fear in PvT is scouting them last and being unable to get into their main. If I don't in, I feel forced to go one gate-robo. The stalker push poke is not good enough.
You obviously have never been on the receiving end of forcefields. I'm pretty much convinced that bunkers aren't even useful as a structure in TvP anymore.
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if things remain the same like they are, both sides will continue to whine and claim that the other side has it so much better. as i described earlier, i think that the tvp matchup is fundamentally screwed - and i believe that both sides need to stop being selfish and ignorant and acknowledge the mutual phases of over-/underpoweredness. if both sides come to the same conclusions about what has to be done to fix the matchup, it would be so so much easier to convince blizzard to act. if we dont, Protoss will remain extinct in the gsl, gold- to masters-terrans are gonna continue to despair over lategame tvp while you tosses go slit against all the early game shennanigans we throw at you. is this really how it should be?
THIS guy gets it. Couldnt of said it better. The MU is so screwed fundamentally and on so many differant levels. Great post.
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On October 11 2011 13:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:21 zdragon wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game. I wish people would stop bringing up this point. If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most. By reliable, I mean scouting that cannot be denied and provides information on exactly what the terran is doing. The scan is the most reliable scouting in the game and cannot be stopped. All other forms, observers, overseers, stalker pokes and the like can be denied. And the cost of scan scouting is potential income, while both protoss and zerg have to pay up front from their scouting. It may seem minor, but this is what makes 1-1-1 so powerful. One of the main reasons is that it looks like a 2 or 1 rax fast expand. If the protoss can't get into your main, they are flying blind until you expand or push out with a ton of units. Or they can spend a lot of gas and get an observer. A lot of pros have talked about this. Idra, Painuser, Liquid Tyler and other have all wanted ways to "pay for information". Right now, terran appears to have the best option because they do not need to spend or harvest gas get this scouting information. It doesn't have to be prefect information, only the kind that you can rely on.
All the races have literally all the scouting options they did in BW, actually the scan in SC2 is actually even worse than the scan option in BW.
Zergs were whining awhile ago about lack of scouting options being why they weren't winning (when they actually were....) and yet now they stand with 2 straight tournaments in a row and a 3 time GSL champion among other accomplishments and nothing was changed about how a zerg scouts.
Plus Protoss have it waaaaaaaaaaay easier than Zerg as far as scouting goes.
They have a mobile scouting tool that isn't easy to deny completely. You can have multiple and can move them around wherever you want granted there's no turrets there. And if the Terran has his base completely surrounded by turrets by the time you get an observer out then you obviously need to reassess your priorities on when you get your robo. Ultimately the choice comes down to whether you want to play greedy or safe which is the same choice any race has. Risk taking is apart of the game.
Whatever this "problem" is with TvP (which is probably just a meta problem anyways as Terran has been nothing but nerfed for the past few months and yet our win rate gradually rose due to problem solving) it doesn't rest in scouting issues for Protoss....
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On October 11 2011 14:20 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:39 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:21 zdragon wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game. I wish people would stop bringing up this point. If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most. By reliable, I mean scouting that cannot be denied and provides information on exactly what the terran is doing. The scan is the most reliable scouting in the game and cannot be stopped. All other forms, observers, overseers, stalker pokes and the like can be denied. And the cost of scan scouting is potential income, while both protoss and zerg have to pay up front from their scouting. It may seem minor, but this is what makes 1-1-1 so powerful. One of the main reasons is that it looks like a 2 or 1 rax fast expand. If the protoss can't get into your main, they are flying blind until you expand or push out with a ton of units. Or they can spend a lot of gas and get an observer. A lot of pros have talked about this. Idra, Painuser, Liquid Tyler and other have all wanted ways to "pay for information". Right now, terran appears to have the best option because they do not need to spend or harvest gas get this scouting information. It doesn't have to be prefect information, only the kind that you can rely on. All the races have literally all the scouting options they did in BW, actually the scan in SC2 is actually even worse than the scan option in BW. Zergs were whining awhile ago about lack of scouting options being why they weren't winning (when they actually were....) and yet now they stand with 2 straight tournaments in a row and a 3 time GSL champion among other accomplishments and nothing was changed about how a zerg scouts. Plus Protoss have it waaaaaaaaaaay easier than Zerg as far as scouting goes. They have a mobile scouting tool that isn't easy to deny completely. You can have multiple and can move them around wherever you want granted there's no turrets there. And if the Terran has his base completely surrounded by turrets by the time you get an observer out then you obviously need to reassess your priorities on when you get your robo. Ultimately the choice comes down to whether you want to play greedy or safe which is the same choice any race has. Risk taking is apart of the game. Whatever this "problem" is with TvP (which is probably just a meta problem anyways as Terran has been nothing but nerfed for the past few months and yet our win rate gradually rose due to problem solving) it doesn't rest in scouting issues for Protoss....
The scouting problem he's talking about is the one that occurs too early for observers to be relevant, when the terran has a wall with a few marines behind it, and the toss's last intel was two minutes ago when he saw 1gas, 1rax and a marine that chased him out.
That pokerface can be anything from 3rax to 1-1-1 to 6rax rine to 1rax CC. We can't have an observer by that point, but we need to make critical and fundamentally different decisions based on the terran's invisible build.
Now, there are ways to get a little more information, like pressuring with zealot-stalker, and sometimes when you do that the terran is stupid and shows you a marauder or far too many rines and you find out what's up. But often they don't.
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On October 11 2011 14:28 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:20 Raiznhell wrote:On October 11 2011 13:39 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:21 zdragon wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game. I wish people would stop bringing up this point. If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most. By reliable, I mean scouting that cannot be denied and provides information on exactly what the terran is doing. The scan is the most reliable scouting in the game and cannot be stopped. All other forms, observers, overseers, stalker pokes and the like can be denied. And the cost of scan scouting is potential income, while both protoss and zerg have to pay up front from their scouting. It may seem minor, but this is what makes 1-1-1 so powerful. One of the main reasons is that it looks like a 2 or 1 rax fast expand. If the protoss can't get into your main, they are flying blind until you expand or push out with a ton of units. Or they can spend a lot of gas and get an observer. A lot of pros have talked about this. Idra, Painuser, Liquid Tyler and other have all wanted ways to "pay for information". Right now, terran appears to have the best option because they do not need to spend or harvest gas get this scouting information. It doesn't have to be prefect information, only the kind that you can rely on. All the races have literally all the scouting options they did in BW, actually the scan in SC2 is actually even worse than the scan option in BW. Zergs were whining awhile ago about lack of scouting options being why they weren't winning (when they actually were....) and yet now they stand with 2 straight tournaments in a row and a 3 time GSL champion among other accomplishments and nothing was changed about how a zerg scouts. Plus Protoss have it waaaaaaaaaaay easier than Zerg as far as scouting goes. They have a mobile scouting tool that isn't easy to deny completely. You can have multiple and can move them around wherever you want granted there's no turrets there. And if the Terran has his base completely surrounded by turrets by the time you get an observer out then you obviously need to reassess your priorities on when you get your robo. Ultimately the choice comes down to whether you want to play greedy or safe which is the same choice any race has. Risk taking is apart of the game. Whatever this "problem" is with TvP (which is probably just a meta problem anyways as Terran has been nothing but nerfed for the past few months and yet our win rate gradually rose due to problem solving) it doesn't rest in scouting issues for Protoss.... The scouting problem he's talking about is the one that occurs too early for observers to be relevant, when the terran has a wall with a few marines behind it, and the toss's last intel was two minutes ago when he saw 1gas, 1rax and a marine that chased him out. That pokerface can be anything from 3rax to 1-1-1 to 6rax rine to 1rax CC. We can't have an observer by that point, but we need to make critical and fundamentally different decisions based on the terran's invisible build. Now, there are ways to get a little more information, like pressuring with zealot-stalker, and sometimes when you do that the terran is stupid and shows you a marauder or far too many rines and you find out what's up. But often they don't.
Ok if you want to explain it that way; Terran scouts 2 gas gate and cybo, it can be 4 gate, 3 gate stargate, DTS, 3 gate contain. We can't spend scans at the point, but we need to make critical and fundamentally difference decisions based on protoss invisible build..
yeah it applys to both sides bro
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On October 11 2011 14:47 ChrisGraphex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 14:28 Belisarius wrote:On October 11 2011 14:20 Raiznhell wrote:On October 11 2011 13:39 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:21 zdragon wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game. I wish people would stop bringing up this point. If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most. By reliable, I mean scouting that cannot be denied and provides information on exactly what the terran is doing. The scan is the most reliable scouting in the game and cannot be stopped. All other forms, observers, overseers, stalker pokes and the like can be denied. And the cost of scan scouting is potential income, while both protoss and zerg have to pay up front from their scouting. It may seem minor, but this is what makes 1-1-1 so powerful. One of the main reasons is that it looks like a 2 or 1 rax fast expand. If the protoss can't get into your main, they are flying blind until you expand or push out with a ton of units. Or they can spend a lot of gas and get an observer. A lot of pros have talked about this. Idra, Painuser, Liquid Tyler and other have all wanted ways to "pay for information". Right now, terran appears to have the best option because they do not need to spend or harvest gas get this scouting information. It doesn't have to be prefect information, only the kind that you can rely on. All the races have literally all the scouting options they did in BW, actually the scan in SC2 is actually even worse than the scan option in BW. Zergs were whining awhile ago about lack of scouting options being why they weren't winning (when they actually were....) and yet now they stand with 2 straight tournaments in a row and a 3 time GSL champion among other accomplishments and nothing was changed about how a zerg scouts. Plus Protoss have it waaaaaaaaaaay easier than Zerg as far as scouting goes. They have a mobile scouting tool that isn't easy to deny completely. You can have multiple and can move them around wherever you want granted there's no turrets there. And if the Terran has his base completely surrounded by turrets by the time you get an observer out then you obviously need to reassess your priorities on when you get your robo. Ultimately the choice comes down to whether you want to play greedy or safe which is the same choice any race has. Risk taking is apart of the game. Whatever this "problem" is with TvP (which is probably just a meta problem anyways as Terran has been nothing but nerfed for the past few months and yet our win rate gradually rose due to problem solving) it doesn't rest in scouting issues for Protoss.... The scouting problem he's talking about is the one that occurs too early for observers to be relevant, when the terran has a wall with a few marines behind it, and the toss's last intel was two minutes ago when he saw 1gas, 1rax and a marine that chased him out. That pokerface can be anything from 3rax to 1-1-1 to 6rax rine to 1rax CC. We can't have an observer by that point, but we need to make critical and fundamentally different decisions based on the terran's invisible build. Now, there are ways to get a little more information, like pressuring with zealot-stalker, and sometimes when you do that the terran is stupid and shows you a marauder or far too many rines and you find out what's up. But often they don't. Ok if you want to explain it that way; Terran scouts 2 gas gate and cybo, it can be 4 gate, 3 gate stargate, DTS, 3 gate contain. We can't spend scans at the point, but we need to make critical and fundamentally difference decisions based on protoss invisible build.. yeah it applys to both sides bro
No it doesn't, not to the same extent. You have the flexibility to respond to all of those on imperfect information from a safe build. You also have a much greater ability to deny and obfuscate your opponent's T1 intel. Sure, there are risky things you can do which might lose to a 4gate, or that could exploit a toss you know has no robo, but you're certainly not at risk of ending up in an unwinnable position if you don't have that information at the four minute mark.
Comparatively, to beat 1-1-1 - and this can be a seperate balance issue regarding the 1-1-1 itself, but scouting is a fundamental part of that issue - to beat 1-1-1, protoss need to commit to an early expansion on the information they see at that point, before they have any way of knowing if they'll eat a 3rax in doing so.
And as a side-note, you absolutely can spend scans. You always can, just like zerg can always sac overlords. It's just that it's not convenient for your build, costs you money and might not net you anything useful if toss has hidden his buildings... and so you make the decision to call a mule instead. That's not the same can't as "protoss can't have an observer at 4 minutes" can't.
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as a response to JUST the OP, i like how there arent tanks in TvP. i love watching TvP simply because seeing bio-mech/mech constantly as a zerg player is annoying. when terrans go all bio against Zerg i laugh because all the zerg needs are banelings and its usually GG. (on ladder anyways, im only a plat player). terran have some of the best, well rounded units in the game(while i personally think eh ghost is imba, but thats an entire different thread), and i think seeing a change from mech based play in at least 1 matchup is pretty awesome. finally being able to see a match where the entire strategy doesnt revolve around BFH is quite enjoyable.
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On October 11 2011 13:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:21 zdragon wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game. I wish people would stop bringing up this point. If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most. By reliable, I mean scouting that cannot be denied and provides information on exactly what the terran is doing. The scan is the most reliable scouting in the game and cannot be stopped. All other forms, observers, overseers, stalker pokes and the like can be denied. And the cost of scan scouting is potential income, while both protoss and zerg have to pay up front from their scouting. It may seem minor, but this is what makes 1-1-1 so powerful. One of the main reasons is that it looks like a 2 or 1 rax fast expand. If the protoss can't get into your main, they are flying blind until you expand or push out with a ton of units. Or they can spend a lot of gas and get an observer. A lot of pros have talked about this. Idra, Painuser, Liquid Tyler and other have all wanted ways to "pay for information". Right now, terran appears to have the best option because they do not need to spend or harvest gas get this scouting information. It doesn't have to be prefect information, only the kind that you can rely on.
Are you incapable of any critical thought? You really have no clue what you are talking about.
Terran scan is worthless for 6-9m scouting. Can you think of why (hint: it's not very hard)?
Congratulations: any build that Z/P do, can and should be hidden! Stargate/shrine/blink proxied/hidden. 2base 7 gate push - gates hidden/proxied.
The _one_ piece of reliable information T can get is basically whether or not P expanded and what timings P has chosen to miss. If you spent any time playing T, you would understand and grasp how EQUIVALENTLY in the dark T is. You know how in GSL games, you see top T's placing down multiple bunkers in anticipation of something and suddenly canceling at 70%? That's because they are anticipating timings - they CAN'T scout.
Now, as I was saying, P has the best scouting because it's mobile and mostly undeniable. Obs or phoenix SHOULD see everything. But that also goes hand in hand with the time/expense of P tech switches, so whatever P sees, he still has to react perfectly.
So stop. Every race is blind. Part of the game is understanding when you are blind, and how the builds you are doing interact with potential enemy builds that you have not eliminated.
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111 maybe be broken.
It's unclear whether or not there exists a 1 base play or 2 base play that is best against it. Both, if adapted correctly, should have some viable response.
But you are completely off the mark on almost every idea. Protoss is going to eat a 3rax if he FEs? What is this, gold league? 3rax hasn't been viable against anything for 3/4 of a year.
Let me educate you on the problem, since you are so misinformed. There are two major vulnerabilities of a P FE. First is 2rax on small maps. This will cancel the nexus every time with proper control. So there needs to viable 1 base play on small maps, or small maps need to be removed. 2rax, however, is completely shit on a large map, and is mediocre against most other builds.
The other vulnerability is a tailored 111 that hits at 7-8m instead. This can be with hellion marine dropship, or marine tank. I'm not sure what the balance is and if FE can hold this, or if this is dependent on the execution.
It doesn't matter that any of this can't be directly scouted. It should be apparent by 6m that this is what the T is doing - no CC on low ground despite seeing your FE, no marauders either. You have the same information as the T when the timings hit. Scouting doesn't need to be fixed - what needs to be fixed is for there to be a viable general response. There still may exist such a response that isn't discovered. But if it doesn't exist, that's what the expansion + new units needs to fix, not scouting.
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In any system as complex as a modern RTS game it is difficult to reduce things to simple cause and effect, so obviously TvP is a complex system and any analysis of this type is going to be oversimplified unless it's a multi-page treatise. It's almost unfortunate TL doesn't have a forum for players to submit such lengthy expositions where they can stand alone, without spawning a thread, with other players responding likewise. I think such a system would be far more productive for a discussion like this one.
Anyway, the core problem with TvP, oversimplified, is as follows. Spoiler to reduce length.
+ Show Spoiler +
Firstly, Warp Gate. There is a tremendous difference in the strength of Protoss before and after this upgrade finishes because it makes every gateway produce units faster. It can also, coincidentally (and less significantly) allow them to be warped in anywhere. As a result, the gateway units must be balanced for both build times, which is categorically impossible. Remedy: Make warp gates have a longer cooldown than the corresponding unit's gateway build time, but they can be warped in anywhere. This also creates tension between warp gates and gateways, and gives Protoss players a reason to switch back and forth.
Secondly, the Marauder. Blizzard has claimed they intend the Marauder to be "a barracks unit that does not immediately die to splash damage" which is an acceptable objective. However, much as they did for the Immortal, they gave this unit a tremendous amount of damage, which actually overshadows its original function. A comparison of the numbers of Marauders and Siege Tanks will demonstrate very obviously why all Terrans will prefer the marauder over the tank. Even ignoring all its secondary advantages, such as their mobility, more efficient transportation and healing with medivacs, cheaper production facility which also has an anti air unit, and general cost-efficiency against all units, they are simply cheaper and have better damage and durability. Until the siege tank actually outperforms the marauder when sieged, it will never be used, as it has a huge array of penalties; cost and fragility to say nothing of the requirement of a 4 second siege/unsiege. Remedy: Straight up Marauder nerf (a deep one too) and a correspondingly significant Siege Tank buff. They need to get the power to justify their vulnerabilities and especially siege mode. The correct nerf to apply is probably a damage nerf. Reduce Marauder damage to 8 (+8 Armored), and increase Siege Tank damage to 35 (+35 Armored). It may also be worthwhile to pursue the possibility of modifying the way Siege Tanks deal damage if the splash damage at this level is unacceptable, by giving the siege tank additional single target damage instead, which is not dealt to every unit in the splash radius.
Thirdly, the Colossus. This unit is an extremely mobile form of siege-tank level splash damage. As long as it remains as it stands, it will be an extremely potent unit to the point that it is race-defining in all matchups. The "weakness" that Protoss players claim of gateway units can be traced directly to this unit. An army of Marauder-comparable Dragoons with Colossi behind them would be completely unstoppable. Unfortunately most of the Colossus' abilities come from its core role, and its core mechanics, so I see no easy way to adjust the Colossus itself. Reducing its movement speed and making it a bit more fragile could be a start, but the real problem is its role as splash dealer combined with its free-fire and cliff walk/vision. Remedy: Do nothing. Adjust other aspects of the game around the Colossus, ideally adding counters to the Colossus on the ground to remove the need to invoke air units as an explicit counter. Siege Tanks or Thors are excellent possible candidates, although a completely new unit, custom-built for the purpose might serve better.
To completely wax creative, what about a Goliath that can deploy into a static mode like a siege tank which gives it a single target, long range anti air attack with an extremely lengthy cooldown? Leaving the topic momentarily, the Colossus is exactly the sort of beasty a unit like the zerg Scourge would be ideal to kill, since Corruptors frequently can't take them down fast enough to save their army, but a couple connects with Scourge take such threats down instantly if unprotected.
Blizzard has taken a page out of Command & Conquer and has incorporated mechanics that are strictly dominant. Furthermore, as a significant special case of this syndrome they have included units that are simply dominant on the ground, but cannot attack air. The Marauder and Colossus being the relevant examples in TvP. This is a huge mistake- the ground game needs to be a complete system without invoking air units, and additionally the air game should be a complete system. The crossover between ground and air should be a meshing of two complete, stable systems where the air system is generally weaker, but more mobile and impossible to attack with some weaponry. Therefore air units must be extremely inefficient against units which can attack air, since many attacks are ground-to-ground and are therefore completely ineffective.
The reason why we have to invoke air units in a discussion of Marauders and Colossi is because Blizzard falsely believes air units can factor into this comparison. Neither Marauders nor Colossi can attack air. In fact, Colossi can even be targeted by anti air weaponry- which is peculiar because anti air in this game is actually quite pathetic compared to the power of air units, despite their high cost. The correct way to balance air units is to have expensive air units LOSE when massed to extremely cost-effective anti air, even if that anti air is only a fraction of the cost and supply.
Invoking air units as a required counter to a strong ground unit is the height of foolishness. This is NOT Supreme Commander 2 with experimentals. The poor Thor and Mothership can go cry in their corner- strategy games are more interesting with a larger number of units with fixed roles, rather than fewer units which are weakly generalist, like the high supply cost Thor.
In summary, the Warp Gate technology, the Marauder, and the Colossus are all strictly dominant choices given the way the game is currently set up. Significant revision regarding ground mechanics is necessary to remove air units from the "required counter" tables before we can actually start balancing the game.
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I don't see what's wrong with the marauder. You understand that the reason there has been such a large trend to zeal archon compositions, and skipping colo, is the strength of chargelot against mara?
Mara are a comparable unit to the zeal. It is inferior in both direct survival and damage, but as long as there is critical mass mara + medivacs + EMPs, then mara can deal with zeal. Also at midgame timings if the bio ball faces no AOE and can wedge itself to reduce surface area, then mara can deal with zeal. In all other parameters, zeal is slightly superior, and forces a significant vulnerable marine count.
The problem, as said at the very start of this thread, is that there is no strong defender's advantage for either race. There is no way to hold parts of the map with a small handful of units, since both races require critical mass to fight.
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Zdragon, that is true of the entire game. The lack of defender's advantage is a result of a lot of different factors in Starcraft 2 at the moment. The lack of force multipliers, area control abilities, and micro-intensive spells, coupled with the improved AI and increased game speed, have together made the game about armies clashing rather than positional control. It is much faster, much looser, and far, far more aggressive.
When players speak of "defender's advantage" what you are actually referring to is "local advantage" which means a smaller army has some feature that makes it more effective than a bigger army, not even necessarily a defensive advantage. Features like the high ground in your base confer a natural local advantage when you are defending that area. However we want every race to have a variety of options for local advantages, since this means it is to your advantage to split your army up. For example, Dark Swarm is a spell which can make a small army extremely effective, to the point that it can defeat or at least stave off a much larger enemy force.
Area control also confers a local advantage, such as force fields. Abilities like spider mines can deny your opponent access to an area without using troops. Three lurkers can essentially hold a ramp forever against marines. This emergent behavior is actually quite important, since it means having more than three lurkers stacked up on one ramp is INEFFICIENT.
I do think I need to reiterate about the high supply cost. A brood war game simply has more STUFF in play at once. There are just more pieces to move. Whether that's 1 supply hydralisks or 2 supply siege tanks, or spider mines which don't even use supply, there is more stuff out on the map in a brood war game, which gives more options for how to split them up. You cannot split a thor, no matter what, but the three goliaths that cost the same supply can either be together or apart as required, or simply not even built if you need exactly one.
The higher supply cost of units, and the improved AI allowing units to be stacked together so tightly means they can all fight at once. So whoever has the bigger ball has a much larger advantage than they did in brood war, even if their troop advantage is actually not that great. Also the importance of splash damage is greatly exaggerated to deal with these tight armies, since there is essentially no reason to avoid a single cohesive ball army. Strategically spacing your army about the map is just begging to get obliterated by an opponent who does ball their forces together.
The lack of area control has caused players to conceptualize "map control" as a discrete thing. Which is sad because whoever has the stronger army almost always has "map control." Ideally we want both players to control some of the map. One player controls an area, and the other controls this other area. And ideally the degree of area control is not uniform- some areas are more heavily controlled than others.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal.
If a protoss player is stupid enough to have his tech or gateways all in one place he shouldnt be fucking allowed to play starcraft 2 -__-
You can literally put all your tech and gateways ANYWHERE, why would you put them in a way that 1 scan can tell fuck all about what you are doing -.-?
Plus, robo builds are awesome, and most expo -> robo builds are safe except vs fringe cases.
The problems in the matchup, for the protoss side anyway, is not in scouting anymore... The matchup needs work but not in that regard.
Also ledarsi's post is awesome.
Zdragon's posts too.
On October 11 2011 14:03 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:51 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:36 NaturalHacks wrote:On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal. how is dropping 1 scan reliable scouting? most protoss i vs in diamond hide their tech especially when you scan the army at the natural, there is never any collosus or high templar, those are tucked away... the point is BOTH races can deny scouting, stalkers at the towers tech hidden and army tucked away, the only way to be guaranteed to spot it is to attack and draw out their forces which can be too late. But we are talking about a very limited period of time here. The first 7-9 minutes. That's when most all-ins push out. It is also when the fast expand builds decide to go down the ramp and set up some bunkers. As a terran you are asking "did he expand or did he get a lot of production buildings?" If your worried about a push, drop more bunkers. If it looks like the protoss is in full macro mode, a few less. My worst fear in PvT is scouting them last and being unable to get into their main. If I don't in, I feel forced to go one gate-robo. The stalker push poke is not good enough. You obviously have never been on the receiving end of forcefields. I'm pretty much convinced that bunkers aren't even useful as a structure in TvP anymore.
Yeah I really dont see a reason why it should be so easy for protoss to stop you from repairing bunkers. Yeah, if we removed that, terrans winrate would go waaaaaaaaay up, but dont you think thats retarded? That a big reason protoss wins games is because of retarded allin builds.......?
Matchup needs total overhaul. Protoss allins are *way* too easy to do and get lucky with, ghosts are a joke that counter everything and marauders ruin both TvP and TvT.
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EPT
