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On October 10 2011 02:10 zdragon wrote:
There are so many shit arguments being thrown about from people that have 0 critical thinking ability.
Before you make your point, take a step back and think about the whole picture of the matchup.
Great ghost is OK vs broodlord/infestor, but think about how you get to that point. You have to put down 4-5 TL rax of infrastructure, spend 3 production cycles in ADVANCE of the broodlord switch, and then still positioning impeccably while setting up drops (since ghosts are only viable in a defensive position). AND, if your ghosts are lost while Z still has gas, good luck dealing with the next wave of BL because of larva mechanics.
The races _are_ asymmetric, they have different strengths. T has two options vs endgame Z: keep him starved and in lockstep, OR get tons of caster units that build strength over time. Z has mobility options to force T mistakes and escape lockstep, and a stronger direct army+production. If there were no superstrong casters for T, there would only be the first option, and the moment Z threw off T's game control, the game would be over. You'd see one timing attack, and the success and failure of that would be it.
AND, the templar vs ghost arguments are equivalently a joke. The T army's HP IS the EMPed P army's HP. Stim marauder: 105hp, stim marines: 90HP. The difference is that, if you don't have AOE, then you won't outdps stim. BUT, in survivability, we're on an even play field IF every EMP is hit. Also, EMP is poor against the mineral sink + tank of the P army, while storm destroys stimmed marines. When EMP kills your mineral sink in 2 ticks, then maybe the comparison will be more apt.
Again, the races are different, and the requirements for combat success are very different. EMP is mandatory, Storm is bonus.
Completely agreed. EMP is mandatory. Without EMP, you are guaranteed a loss with same army sizes (mineral and gas cost).
With perfect EMPs, you still may lose and this has happened to me many times over. I've landed perfect and multiple EMPs, micro'ed my units, tried to dodge storms and I still lose to a Toss army (that in my opinion did not take any micro).
I think if you ask any Terran, we would gladly exchange Ghosts for HTs any day. I don't think any other race would be happy to trade their spellcaster for the ghost.
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I don't know why people think that battles need to be ball vs ball and techswitches are impossible.
Battlecruisers are still DEVASTATINGLY powerful against protoss. In ways you can't even imagine. The problem is that people haven't really given them a good lookover yet. EMP your own BC's and have an early lategame push, and he won't have an answer.
Drop. Everywhere. protoss who go colossus are begging to be picked apart at the seams. Utilize that drop micro. 4 stalkers ruining your day? drop a thor on them instead. problem solved.
Thors are still pretty darn good, situationally. Not for their damage, but for their ability to just make speedlots AI freak the heck out while your squishy damage dealers rape them.
Mid/lategame reaper transition. QXC did it and he vaporized entire worker lines in a half-second. Those reapers get mondo bonus from upgrades, and if you're going bio, only 1-2 rax cycles are needed anyways (the long time they take to build in relation to their super low cost is also a good time to start establishing another techswitch or expand.) They can also skirt around and keep scouting/map control up, snipe pylons, kite zealots, etc.
Nukes. Nukes are too underused. Force engagements, prevent engagements, that little red dot may not do damage but it freaks people out hard.
Ravens are still good. HSM is a bit faster, and usable on deathballs. auto turrets can still harass, and PDD still nullifies stalkers instantly.
You don't need to mech to have five blueflame hellions. Five hellions positioned a little bit back kills infinity zealots.
Building chokes. This is important in tvp AND tvz. People who make supply depot chokes that zealots/zerglings have to squeeze into almost ALWAYS win the engagement.
Banshees. Mid/lategame, if you keep periodically sniping his observers, a random banshee here or there can own. Even in main battles, scan his army, snipe the observer with vikings (if he's going collo) and then your cloaked banshee or two will just have a hayday.
Bunker upgrades. Neosteel plating and the bunker space upgrade make a bunker line as much of a hard contain as a line of pre-nerf tanks ever was. Bunkers with six marines or three marauders apiece and 2 extra armor at the top of a ramp, fuggedabout.
The problem I see a lot of is that terrans are unwilling to transition into units that have little to no upgrades, get unorthodox upgrades (seriously, bunker capacity + armor is insane) or be truly mobile. They treat bio like a deathball and major engagements need to be done in order to win.
Be sneaky and clever, that's what being terran is all about. We have very complex units and strategies at our disposal and we just make a buttload of ghosts to EMP everything? For shame.
Turrets in key places are a little more important now to stop warp prisms.
But yes, tanks are garbage in TvP. Zealots are just as sturdy, they can chew up the distance instantly, immortals can snipe them easily, tanks are just not a reasonable unit.
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On October 10 2011 03:38 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 02:10 zdragon wrote:
There are so many shit arguments being thrown about from people that have 0 critical thinking ability.
Before you make your point, take a step back and think about the whole picture of the matchup.
Great ghost is OK vs broodlord/infestor, but think about how you get to that point. You have to put down 4-5 TL rax of infrastructure, spend 3 production cycles in ADVANCE of the broodlord switch, and then still positioning impeccably while setting up drops (since ghosts are only viable in a defensive position). AND, if your ghosts are lost while Z still has gas, good luck dealing with the next wave of BL because of larva mechanics.
The races _are_ asymmetric, they have different strengths. T has two options vs endgame Z: keep him starved and in lockstep, OR get tons of caster units that build strength over time. Z has mobility options to force T mistakes and escape lockstep, and a stronger direct army+production. If there were no superstrong casters for T, there would only be the first option, and the moment Z threw off T's game control, the game would be over. You'd see one timing attack, and the success and failure of that would be it.
AND, the templar vs ghost arguments are equivalently a joke. The T army's HP IS the EMPed P army's HP. Stim marauder: 105hp, stim marines: 90HP. The difference is that, if you don't have AOE, then you won't outdps stim. BUT, in survivability, we're on an even play field IF every EMP is hit. Also, EMP is poor against the mineral sink + tank of the P army, while storm destroys stimmed marines. When EMP kills your mineral sink in 2 ticks, then maybe the comparison will be more apt.
Again, the races are different, and the requirements for combat success are very different. EMP is mandatory, Storm is bonus. Completely agreed. EMP is mandatory. Without EMP, you are guaranteed a loss with same army sizes (mineral and gas cost). With perfect EMPs, you still may lose and this has happened to me many times over. I've landed perfect and multiple EMPs, micro'ed my units, tried to dodge storms and I still lose to a Toss army (that in my opinion did not take any micro). I think if you ask any Terran, we would gladly exchange Ghosts for HTs any day. I don't think any other race would be happy to trade their spellcaster for the ghost.
ar you kidding me? T2 "Ghost pit" as zerg? Hell yeah I would love that! Mass ghosts is brutal enough once terran gets it up, think about how crazy imbalanced it would be if you could just start massing them with larva mechanism after 10mins...
You want to contain me? NUKE: You unsiege and I'll be like BANELINGS BANELINGS BANELINGS...
Forcefield? I don't think so: EMP! (note that forcefield is way more important in PvZ as in PvT, due to zerg units having such low range)
You want to banshee/void ray cheese me? Nope my all purpose Ghosts will be out at a hydratiming, but won't be useless afterwards!
I don't get why Terrans whine about their units... Due to having inferior production, all those units are just straight up stronger (ofc with some major disadvantages, like the marine being just 5-10times stronger than any other unit costwise, but also completly useless against a lot of splash)
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On October 10 2011 05:31 Big J wrote:
ar you kidding me? T2 "Ghost pit" as zerg? Hell yeah I would love that! Mass ghosts is brutal enough once terran gets it up, think about how crazy imbalanced it would be if you could just start massing them with larva mechanism after 10mins...
You want to contain me? NUKE: You unsiege and I'll be like BANELINGS BANELINGS BANELINGS...
Forcefield? I don't think so: EMP! (note that forcefield is way more important in PvZ as in PvT, due to zerg units having such low range)
You want to banshee/void ray cheese me? Nope my all purpose Ghosts will be out at a hydratiming, but won't be useless afterwards!
I don't get why Terrans whine about their units... Due to having inferior production, all those units are just straight up stronger (ofc with some major disadvantages, like the marine being just 5-10times stronger than any other unit costwise, but also completly useless against a lot of splash)
Everyone just whines. Gamers are the group that loves nothing more than to hate their hobby.
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On October 10 2011 03:38 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 02:10 zdragon wrote:
There are so many shit arguments being thrown about from people that have 0 critical thinking ability.
Before you make your point, take a step back and think about the whole picture of the matchup.
Great ghost is OK vs broodlord/infestor, but think about how you get to that point. You have to put down 4-5 TL rax of infrastructure, spend 3 production cycles in ADVANCE of the broodlord switch, and then still positioning impeccably while setting up drops (since ghosts are only viable in a defensive position). AND, if your ghosts are lost while Z still has gas, good luck dealing with the next wave of BL because of larva mechanics.
The races _are_ asymmetric, they have different strengths. T has two options vs endgame Z: keep him starved and in lockstep, OR get tons of caster units that build strength over time. Z has mobility options to force T mistakes and escape lockstep, and a stronger direct army+production. If there were no superstrong casters for T, there would only be the first option, and the moment Z threw off T's game control, the game would be over. You'd see one timing attack, and the success and failure of that would be it.
AND, the templar vs ghost arguments are equivalently a joke. The T army's HP IS the EMPed P army's HP. Stim marauder: 105hp, stim marines: 90HP. The difference is that, if you don't have AOE, then you won't outdps stim. BUT, in survivability, we're on an even play field IF every EMP is hit. Also, EMP is poor against the mineral sink + tank of the P army, while storm destroys stimmed marines. When EMP kills your mineral sink in 2 ticks, then maybe the comparison will be more apt.
Again, the races are different, and the requirements for combat success are very different. EMP is mandatory, Storm is bonus. Completely agreed. EMP is mandatory. Without EMP, you are guaranteed a loss with same army sizes (mineral and gas cost). With perfect EMPs, you still may lose and this has happened to me many times over. I've landed perfect and multiple EMPs, micro'ed my units, tried to dodge storms and I still lose to a Toss army (that in my opinion did not take any micro). I think if you ask any Terran, we would gladly exchange Ghosts for HTs any day. I don't think any other race would be happy to trade their spellcaster for the ghost.
I never thought I would see the day when Terrans would complain about Ghosts. And bringing in your own personal ladder experience means nothing. What could be more helpful would be looking at the pro games between PvT and seeing the winrates and how effective EMP is. Or does that not suit your argument?
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On October 11 2011 06:47 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 03:38 zmansman17 wrote:On October 10 2011 02:10 zdragon wrote:
There are so many shit arguments being thrown about from people that have 0 critical thinking ability.
Before you make your point, take a step back and think about the whole picture of the matchup.
Great ghost is OK vs broodlord/infestor, but think about how you get to that point. You have to put down 4-5 TL rax of infrastructure, spend 3 production cycles in ADVANCE of the broodlord switch, and then still positioning impeccably while setting up drops (since ghosts are only viable in a defensive position). AND, if your ghosts are lost while Z still has gas, good luck dealing with the next wave of BL because of larva mechanics.
The races _are_ asymmetric, they have different strengths. T has two options vs endgame Z: keep him starved and in lockstep, OR get tons of caster units that build strength over time. Z has mobility options to force T mistakes and escape lockstep, and a stronger direct army+production. If there were no superstrong casters for T, there would only be the first option, and the moment Z threw off T's game control, the game would be over. You'd see one timing attack, and the success and failure of that would be it.
AND, the templar vs ghost arguments are equivalently a joke. The T army's HP IS the EMPed P army's HP. Stim marauder: 105hp, stim marines: 90HP. The difference is that, if you don't have AOE, then you won't outdps stim. BUT, in survivability, we're on an even play field IF every EMP is hit. Also, EMP is poor against the mineral sink + tank of the P army, while storm destroys stimmed marines. When EMP kills your mineral sink in 2 ticks, then maybe the comparison will be more apt.
Again, the races are different, and the requirements for combat success are very different. EMP is mandatory, Storm is bonus. Completely agreed. EMP is mandatory. Without EMP, you are guaranteed a loss with same army sizes (mineral and gas cost). With perfect EMPs, you still may lose and this has happened to me many times over. I've landed perfect and multiple EMPs, micro'ed my units, tried to dodge storms and I still lose to a Toss army (that in my opinion did not take any micro). I think if you ask any Terran, we would gladly exchange Ghosts for HTs any day. I don't think any other race would be happy to trade their spellcaster for the ghost. I never thought I would see the day when Terrans would complain about Ghosts. And bringing in your own personal ladder experience means nothing. What could be more helpful would be looking at the pro games between PvT and seeing the winrates and how effective EMP is. Or does that not suit your argument?
trade you infestors for ghosts anyday... instantly nullifies spellcaster units with basic gold micro
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I agree totally with the OP, and with Artosis's rant about the Marauder on SOTG a few episodes ago, which expressed the same sentiments as the OP.
I'm not so much concerned about the 'balance' aspect, I cant be really since I'm only gold level. This is more from a spectators perspective, and about the 'feel' of the races. In Brood War each race had a distinctive character to it, and for Terran the siege tank felt like a definitive element in the make-up of the race.
The Marauder doesnt feel 'Terran', and TvP is the match-up most in need of development. This Bio playing-style is dull, cheesy and doesn't feel suited to Terran. Swarming your opponent with Bio is something more appropriate for Zerg, it fits the characteristics of the Zerg race.
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how is tank bio ghost not strong in TvP on any map?
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Its different from Broodwar where terran has stronger army than the protoss. In SC2 its the opposite.
But protoss deathball in SC2 can kill a maxed marine marauder army with loosing 25 supply at most.
Tanks were never imba. Its just the fresh SC2 players whining about tanks. They have no idea of positioning and running around like in Broodwar.
All and all tanks don't do shit in SC2 for their cost. The most cost and strategically ineffective unit.
And for those who say tank bio ghost (nothing personal ThisGS) i have tried different ways to do it
but by the time you even make tank bio the protoss can outexpand you and roll you with whatever unit he likes.
And an advice to protosses - whenever you see a siege tank and expansion early game you expand once more.
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On October 11 2011 09:00 Nakata wrote:
Its different from Broodwar where terran has stronger army than the protoss. In SC2 its the opposite.
But protoss deathball in SC2 can kill a maxed marine marauder army with loosing 25 supply at most.
Tanks were never imba. Its just the fresh SC2 players whining about tanks. They have no idea of positioning and running around like in Broodwar.
All and all tanks don't do shit in SC2 for their cost. The most cost and strategically ineffective unit.
And for those who say tank bio ghost (nothing personal ThisGS) i have tried different ways to do it
but by the time you even make tank bio the protoss can outexpand you and roll you with whatever unit he likes.
And an advice to protosses - whenever you see a siege tank and expansion early game you expand once more.
Thats not true, tanks are a staple in TvZ, youve got the problem mixed up. Tanks are bad because of blink/every protoss unit countering them.
Tank Bio is terrible, once the toss gets charge, your tanks end up splashing your bio so fast that they help the toss more than they help you.
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On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army.
I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven....
I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right...
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im a diamond scrub but can someone show me how a terran 100 supply army beats a toss 100 supply army in micro test arena i will play as toss. i need to learn please toss rapes my superior army all the time
naturalhacks.147 NA
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On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right...
Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%.
Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die.
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On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die.
I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race...
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As a Terran player, I can buy that the match-up needs to be looked at, The stats at GSL don't lie.
But here is my issue, everyone wants to change the ghost. Now minor tweaks to cost and build time might be ok, but you really can't screw with EMP, without also having some large game changes. At the moment Ghost is the only real counter to both Archons and High Templar. Storm wrecks bio ball like nobodies business - it only takes two or three to completely destroy a Terran army completely. Relative to EMP, it is a much more powerful spell (as it should be, with HTs being T3 casters without Khaydarin and Ghosts being T1.5). Archons are similar, theeir shield points is ridiculous, can't kite them, and they deal very good AOE damage. The only good way to deal with them is to EMP the crap out of them.
So I'm not opposed to major ghost changes, but I need some way to deal with High Templar and I need some way to deal with Archons, and I need to be able to do both at the same time.
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On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race...
I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base.
It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal.
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On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die.
How does Terran have reliable scouting those first 7-9 minutes? No race has 100% reliable scouting. That's part of the game.
I wish people would stop bringing up this point.
If anything Protoss has the _most_ reliable scouting, but they also need it the most.
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On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%.
oh come on, stop the sarcasm. yes, all these things are necessary for terrans! this sounds ridiculous at first, but its the logical consequence of the fact that tier 1 units are the only viable option we terrans have for our army backbone in this matchup, while these unit compositions get completely demolished by the AoE-overkill you tosses got at your disposal in the lategame.
yes, we might have medivacs, vikings and ghosts as support and these are not tier 1, but the main damage dealers are still the marines and marauders. and they get eaten alive by your main damage dealers, colossi and hts, tier 3 units btw.
basically, the lack of alternatives to bio that is criticized in this thread is the exact reason why lategame tvp against a toss of equal skill level can only be won as terran if both player's skill levels are so insanely high that the gosu toss cant put all his skill to use due to the innate limitations of the protoss race, while the gosu terran can. on all other skill levels, lategame situations between equally skilled players severly favor toss.
and yes, game balance should be based around the highest level of competition, but it should still be acknowledged that the vast majority of us ordinary players, with our limited play time and talent, dont have the slighest chance of ever reaching the skill level of thorzain or mma. at the same time, it should of course also be acknowledged that tvp is broken in T's favor on this highest level of play.
the fact that lategame tvp is broken in P's favor for players with mortal skill level is the exact reason why we terrans resort to all the early aggression and timing pushes and all the sneaky, from your point of view, gay stuff. this stuff is the only thing that keeps the overall winrates of the matchup at a somewhat tolerable level for the lower echolons of play. yes, many of our early game stuff is overpowered in a certain sense, but this is the result of balance adjusting to a matchup that in its very core is flawed.
in my opinion, tvp in its current state is a fundamentally broken matchup: it lacks strategical variety, its metagame is evolving far slower than that of most other matchups and in its current form, it will always be imbalanced one way or the other. if, for example, toss gets buffed more to make top korean tosses able to fight top korean terrans on even grounds, then the matchup will become completely unplayable for us casual folks. if they buff terran to make it more balanced for the lower leagues, then toss becomes completely extinct in the gsl.
the main reason for all this "screwdness" (is this a legit word?) is that terran has no other option in terms of unit compositions than to stick with bio all game long. the massive AoE-options of toss lategame armies, on the other hand, yields an extremely high innate fragility of terran armies that can only be circumvented by multi-pronged attacks and 300 apm korean progamer micro.
what you tosses in this thread seem to not understand is that the matchup could become more pleasing for both sides if we terrans are given other viable unit compositions. once we have other viable lategame options that dont get wtfowned by splash, the early game can be adjusted in your favor as we would no longer depend on entering the mid- and lategame with an advantage. once we have other viable lategame options, you can have a method for earlier detection, you can have the marauder nerf, the ghost nerf and so on.
if things remain the same like they are, both sides will continue to whine and claim that the other side has it so much better. as i described earlier, i think that the tvp matchup is fundamentally screwed - and i believe that both sides need to stop being selfish and ignorant and acknowledge the mutual phases of over-/underpoweredness. if both sides come to the same conclusions about what has to be done to fix the matchup, it would be so so much easier to convince blizzard to act. if we dont, Protoss will remain extinct in the gsl, gold- to masters-terrans are gonna continue to despair over lategame tvp while you tosses go slit against all the early game shennanigans we throw at you. is this really how it should be?
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On October 11 2011 13:09 Icekommander wrote:
As a Terran player, I can buy that the match-up needs to be looked at, The stats at GSL don't lie.
But here is my issue, everyone wants to change the ghost. Now minor tweaks to cost and build time might be ok, but you really can't screw with EMP, without also having some large game changes. At the moment Ghost is the only real counter to both Archons and High Templar. Storm wrecks bio ball like nobodies business - it only takes two or three to completely destroy a Terran army completely. Relative to EMP, it is a much more powerful spell (as it should be, with HTs being T3 casters without Khaydarin and Ghosts being T1.5). Archons are similar, theeir shield points is ridiculous, can't kite them, and they deal very good AOE damage. The only good way to deal with them is to EMP the crap out of them.
So I'm not opposed to major ghost changes, but I need some way to deal with High Templar and I need some way to deal with Archons, and I need to be able to do both at the same time.
Ghosts are teir 3 units, despite their place in the tech tree(which I think is totally messed up, FYI). They are messed up on so many levels, but the worst part is that they never die. If you look at Puma vs Mana in IEM, Puma lead with his ghosts. He charged them right at Mana's 200/200 Protoss army. Why, because he knew they would not be killed. Ghosts have better vision and range than any Protoss unit, so there is no risk of them getting the drop on you. With the 100 health and no bonus damage from any attack type, ghosts are impossible to pick off before they land their spells.
I can deal with them doing shield damage. Hell, it can do bonus damage to archons if necessary. But the ghost needs to be brought in line with the rest SC2. It is this messed up unit left over from beta that terran can get at almost any point in the game. It has a low initial cost, comes with spells and only gets better as the game goes on.
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On October 11 2011 13:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 13:09 aksfjh wrote:On October 11 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:On October 11 2011 10:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 09 2011 20:33 humbre wrote:On October 09 2011 13:01 zmansman17 wrote:
Top 8 master Terran here and playing mech against Toss is like quitting the game before it starts.
Granted, SCWarden uses a Bio/mech mix, I don't know any other pros that play this way. Perhaps you could win a few games because Toss may not know how to respond. But grinding away with mech, you will quickly realize mech is inferior in TvP
CoLTrimaster experimented with mech versus one of his Toss friends with 200 army to 200 army. The seige spread was great, bunkers and turrets were in place, upgrades were the same, and the Toss lost 40 army.
The Terran lost everything.
The reason Koreans use Bio is because Koreans have superior mechanics and adroit micro. The reason Americans or Europeans do not have the same success with Terran is because Terran bio requires a very high level of micro and skill.
If a player has this degree of skill, they can reap small advantages and make their units many times more cost efficient.
For noobs like myself who are only Top 6 Master, I do not have the micro to make my units super cost efficient versus Storms, Collosi and many other Toss units that don't require the same micro. (I also practice micro tournament like every day).
The reality is that Terran is a race that mandates high degree of micro. Mech not only cannot be microed well against Toss, but on their own, they are just not strong units v Toss. If any Toss is bashing Terran, I suggest you attempt to play Terran at my level, watch pro streams of many terrans complaining about Toss, before commenting on why Terran do or do not do certain builds. pretty much nailed it, i played both toss and terran same amout of games and P players who claim T is just 1a need a reality check and switch races for once to actually see how hard it is even vs 1a colo/ht army. I can't... I don't... whatisthisidon'teven.... I can't believe I ever dared call T a 1a race when I myself can just 1a my caster-based composition and roll terrans left and right... Don't even try man, don't even try. There is no reasoning with them. The terrans are legion and they will convince us that the reason Protoss is doing poorly is because we are all doing it wrong. Seriously, the mule, ghost, marauder, EMP, flying builds and scan are all necessary to make terran a valid race. Without those things.....the win rate might be like....50%. Really, all I want is reliable scouting in the first 7-9 minutes of the game. So many terran builds rely on protoss not being able to figure out exactly what the terran is doing. That and the ghost to be looked at, because those bastards do not die. I want a way to scout Protoss without giving up the economy race... I have no sympathy for terrans who are unable to drop one mule to scan and get nearly perfect scouting information. The information that provides make your economy and timing that much more efficient. The protoss has to work off imperfect information until they spend gas to get an observer out and into the terran base. It may seem minor, but it is one of the main tactics korean terrans are using. Posturing a 1-1-1 while going fast expand and vice versa. That with the Ghost, which only get better the more of them that are on the field, the PvT match up is brutal.
Yea, that super effective scan which misses 50% of the time. Good thing I saw those 3 gates when you're on 2 bases, I'm sure that's all the Protoss has...
Maybe if you stopped depriving yourself of sleep and watched players who aren't in the GSL, you'd see a lot of Terrans have tons of trouble in TvP. Even IF we know the tech, many times it requires an exact response for a rather malleable composition. Pumping colossi out like mad? I better be double pumping vikings. Light on colossi, heavy on twilight+upgrades (but still have the colossus tech mind you)? I better bend over because I can't drop against the mobility, can't go for an upgrade timing push, kiting is pretty much ineffective, and EMP takes away less than 1/3 of the health of one of the most basic, powerful units in the game. Start the game with marauder heavy comp against proxy stargate? Might as well GG right there.
Face it. 9 times out of 10, if you're losing to EMPs it's because you're losing for some other reason. Or you're laughing maniacally while massing archons. Either way, there's a lot going for Protoss right now outside the pitiable 4-5 games we see in GSL every month.
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