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United States324 Posts
Just a thought on defending cannon rushes...
Depending on the cannon rush, I feel like sometimes expanding and abandoning your base is the only way to deal with it. If you can stop the initial probe/pylon with your own probes, that's ideal of course, but sometimes I get cannon rushed with the intial pylon/cannon(s) going unscouted in some corner or low ground of my base (a scouting error, but it happens).
This used to happen a lot on XNC, where the cannon rush is started on the natural low ground. In this case, if he's invested in a few cannons that aren't killing my probes yet, I like to send my zealot(s) to his base to do damage/force cannons, and save for another nexus.
Very situational, but there's times when throwing down my own forge in response just doesn't work, because I can't get a cannon in range to save my nexus. I feel like if my opponent made too many cannons/didn't tech, I can end up even or ahead (depending on my gateway timing and whether or not the Zealot(s) can deal any damage).
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This is an awesome thread *-*
Thank you for this 
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Italy12246 Posts
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
Edit: also against hatch first it's quite viable to get a second gate at 16, cut probes, get a cyber and 2 fast stalkers asap and then resume as normal (yay for cecil's tutorial videos).
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Yay - Thx for the link monk!
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On September 27 2011 03:20 Teoita wrote:
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
I wouldn't say that it's exclusive to the lower leagues. This happened to me yesterday, I was playing a master's guy and he completely tricked me with it. The worst part is that I scouted a TL Rax and a Reactor rax, and just BARELY missed the fact right behind it he put the TL on after I left. T_T
It's a very good point, good advice.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 04:35 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 03:20 Teoita wrote:
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
I wouldn't say that it's exclusive to the lower leagues. This happened to me yesterday, I was playing a master's guy and he completely tricked me with it. The worst part is that I scouted a TL Rax and a Reactor rax, and just BARELY missed the fact right behind it he put the TL on after I left. T_T It's a very good point, good advice.
Yea, this is true. I copied that part of the guide from an old post. It should say, if you see a marauder, it's less likely to be a tech build. I'll fix it later.
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On September 27 2011 04:35 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 03:20 Teoita wrote:
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
I wouldn't say that it's exclusive to the lower leagues. This happened to me yesterday, I was playing a master's guy and he completely tricked me with it. The worst part is that I scouted a TL Rax and a Reactor rax, and just BARELY missed the fact right behind it he put the TL on after I left. T_T It's a very good point, good advice.
I agree. Trickery such as cancelled Gas, add-ons, proxied buildings etc. can be found at all levels of play! Good point. ^^
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me.
Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out.
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Sorry to hijack your threat for my question but you seem to know a lot about p-strats 
Sooooo: Why are p-players not getting more robos when maxed and having k/k mins/gas?
Just watched a couple of games and no one gets >2 robos. I mean I’m just gold but being able to rewarp-in a lot of units fast is only useful when losing a fight significantly. In all other situations it´s favorable to get the tech units out in mass numbers imho. Is there any other reason i´m missing here?
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On September 27 2011 06:43 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me. Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out.
I like the rest of the solution, don't get me wrong. Phoenixes are a good idea. But what are you defending from with 5 cannons? I just don't feel like 2 port will have enough of a ground army that you can't deal with with the gateway units you have available. I'd just rather go for 5 gates or something to bust and kill him rather than play defensively when I don't think there's a threat.
I mean it's not like I think you'll lose doing the cannons, it just seems unnecessary.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 08:42 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 06:43 4kmonk wrote:On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me. Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out. I like the rest of the solution, don't get me wrong. Phoenixes are a good idea. But what are you defending from with 5 cannons? I just don't feel like 2 port will have enough of a ground army that you can't deal with with the gateway units you have available. I'd just rather go for 5 gates or something to bust and kill him rather than play defensively when I don't think there's a threat. I mean it's not like I think you'll lose doing the cannons, it just seems unnecessary.
You can't deal with the marine support without the cannons. Gateway units just don't cut it. Have you ever played against a 2 port attack with 1 reactor rax and 2 regular rax and tried to defend with just pheonix gateway?
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Great stuff as usual, 4kmonk should be nominated as a blue poster imo ^^
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On September 27 2011 08:48 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 08:42 Indrium wrote:On September 27 2011 06:43 4kmonk wrote:On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me. Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out. I like the rest of the solution, don't get me wrong. Phoenixes are a good idea. But what are you defending from with 5 cannons? I just don't feel like 2 port will have enough of a ground army that you can't deal with with the gateway units you have available. I'd just rather go for 5 gates or something to bust and kill him rather than play defensively when I don't think there's a threat. I mean it's not like I think you'll lose doing the cannons, it just seems unnecessary. You can't deal with the marine support without the cannons. Gateway units just don't cut it. Have you ever played against a 2 port attack with 1 reactor rax and 2 regular rax and tried to defend with just pheonix gateway?
Not entirely sure. I dealt with marine support, not sure of the quantity, but it's entirely possible he
was just bad. I take your point. Thanks for clarifying.
And nice job on the thread, forgot to say that earlier. Was just that one thing I was confused about, rest looks very solid. (And so was that now that I'm clearer on it.)
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can i ask question??
this is me. http://sc2ranks.com/us/386631/sKoAcid
just to let you know this is a seirous question
How do you deal with mass speedling as protoss? To put "mass" into perspective over 100? I have some replays if you want to look at them as well.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 08:56 acidstormy wrote:can i ask question?? this is me. http://sc2ranks.com/us/386631/sKoAcid just to let you know this is a seirous question How do you deal with mass speedling as protoss? To put "mass" into perspective over 100? I have some replays if you want to look at them as well.
Well, first of all, this probably belongs in the protoss question thread. Also, I'd probably need a replay to answer. I mean, there's the obvious answer, zealots, collosi, templar, archons. And there's less obvious answers like good sim city, lots of cannons, and templar at your bases. But I don't know what you're looking for until I see a replay.
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United States8476 Posts
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Okay i sent you a PM! thanks for taking your time, i am constantly looking for input and advice against this zerg style
Actually i got one to work
http://drop.sc/38115
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 09:08 acidstormy wrote:Okay i sent you a PM! thanks for taking your time, i am constantly looking for input and advice against this zerg style Actually i got one to work http://drop.sc/38115
The reason that mass ling style is very uncommon in PvZ is that it consistently loses to any mass gateway attack. That being said, you couldn't have known he was going mass lings and blind countered him, so I'll comment on that game specifically.
Your opening, first 5 minutes wasn't optimal. You make 2 cannon, make buildings in the wrong order, have off building positioning, and don't properly account that ling runby, which put you quite behind.
Your biggest problem by far is the lack of sentries. I don't think you make even 1 sentry the entire game, which help greatly versus mass lings.
I don't understand your build from 5 minutes to 10 minutes. You have 4 gates, a robo, and a twilight, but don't make sentries. You seem to want to mass blink stalkers, but don't have enough to push or pressure. Also, in my opinion, a defensive robo on a huge map is probably the worst thing you can do versus mass ling.
I wouldn't recommend collosi if you scout mass lings, as both infestors and muta are the most common followups, both of which templar do better against.
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ok, thanks for evaluating, i was a little nervous for some reason. That ling run by did mess me up becuase i like to get stargate before i get any other tech.
i think ill try the HT out, i haven't really done that yet
EDIT: Also i have a follow up question. Is there something about forge expand that tempts zergs to get mass ling? Many zergs i play on Korean and American server get many many lings against me no matter what. I don't know zerg very well, but they must see an obvious weakness for them to respond with this mass ling style
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Maybe you could add the huging nexus pylon/1st gateway build as a preemptive 6pool "counter". Afaik WhiteRa likes to do this.
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EPT
