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I come back after a week of testing : it works wonders!
Basically, there are five points I want to make :
- it is the same idea as the TvP mass marines : small group of marines perform very well (cost effectively) all along the game. With a minimum of micro, nothing really counters them, even the AoE dealers such as banelings or colossi.
- for the first drop, do a double prong attack with one medivacs for each attack. Afterwards, go for two attacks of two medivacs. But no more, remember, a "critical mass" of marines is counterproductive
- don't worry if your drop gets cleaned (as long as you don't lose your medivacs fully loaded) Drop again and again, this is particularly effective when targeting the third, because the hatchery will eventually fall (second or third drop usually)
- there are a few micro moves you need to do. In presence of ling + mutas + baneling, just spread your marines and let them die. In presence of lings+mutas (the first units that reach your marines when you do a drop), focus on the mutas! 4 zerglings = 140 pv and 100 minerals. 1 muta = 120 pv and 100/100 resource!. In presence of ling+banelings, put your marines back in the medivac and re-drop them on the banelings. Against lings, no micro needed =)
- around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
I simply love this build!
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Do you do reactors or make more barracks? Also, what do you do when you start to float gas because marines are mineral heavy, upgrades are gas heavy but only temporarily gas heavy?
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As you stated, when you start to have a bit of gas, and not enough minerals, stop making barracks and put reactors =)
Also, as you said, for the gas, apart from the reactored starport,you can temporary dump gas in upgrades and reactors (remember that the building armor upgrade and the range upgrade in the engineering bay are very good), then, when you start floating 1.5k to 2k gas, it's usually the moment you to a tech switch to thors.
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On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote:
- around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta?
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Typically if the game is still going at 20minutes I start floating 2000+ gas. What I usually do at that point is throw down 2-3 more starports upgrade corvid reactor and HSM and start pumping out ravens. HSM spam can deal nicely with infestor broodlord which is the most problematic thing to deal with since the infestors are usually sitting under the ravens and if they waste all their energy spamming ravnes with fungals then they risk not having enough to deal with the mass marines.
Typically though when I get to this point in the game (20minutes) I am already quite a bit ahead.
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I usually only take 3 geysers, maybe 4, and just focus on minerals at every base past the natural. By 20 minutes infantry ups should be done or almost done so all gas can go into medivacs and ghosts. Ghosts seem pretty important in my experience, fast infestors and ultras can make pure marines kinda tough but snipe is insane.
I've been having insane success with mass marines on ladder. Most zergs are pretty upset and bm about it though 
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On November 14 2011 04:56 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote:
- around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta?
Erm, I keep on producing lots of marines, but usually, I cant produce anymore on all my barracks because 4 factories dump 1200 minerals (4*300) for each cycle. When I say "I switch to thor", I mean that thors have higher priority now.
Pure thors lose hard to ling/bling/muta (especially because the Z will only engage with zerglings), but the marine support just gives an incredible composition advantage.
So, in clear, I keep on dropping while I build the factories, and thus losing marines and medivacs to do damage and freeing supply. With a bit of luck, you can do 2 rounds of thors unnoticed. Usually, around the beginning/middle of the second round of thors, the Z must be wondering what you're doing.
Then you push without thinking, straight to the third/fourth/fifth, with the marines ready to stim and run behind the thors when banelings are on sight. Usually, it ends the game. (Remember that normally, you are pushing allll the way on his creep, I usually can't deal with creep tumors during the first 20 minutes, so watch out!)
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Hi guys, I still use this build for my TvZ and I love it, it's simple, fun and effective (well so far for me at Silver!)
I was just wondering if any of you guys have tried opening fast cloak banshee and then transferring into this if they don't GG from the first 2 banshees (no spores up in time). I feel like this would help with bling bust and fast roaches. I haven't really tried this out yet but I know some people consider fast cloak banshee to be a bit all-in. idk.
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^What does fast cloak banshee have to do anything with this build o_o
Bling bust and fast roaches can both be countered by just scouting it and reacting properly (bunkers)
An important thing I have noticed with this build is that you have to constantly trade with zerg early-game (marines for lings) so zerg can't get a big drone count (constant aggression!) and your gas goes into fast 3/3 upgrades, because marines tear through zerglings (then banelings) with fast upgrades. Dropping is really nice though ^.^
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On November 14 2011 04:56 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote:
- around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta?
not really. a good zerg player will magicbox your thors when they're out of position, and then baneling the crap out of your marines
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On January 09 2012 07:49 Marathi wrote:
Hi guys, I still use this build for my TvZ and I love it, it's simple, fun and effective (well so far for me at Silver!)
I was just wondering if any of you guys have tried opening fast cloak banshee and then transferring into this if they don't GG from the first 2 banshees (no spores up in time). I feel like this would help with bling bust and fast roaches. I haven't really tried this out yet but I know some people consider fast cloak banshee to be a bit all-in. idk.
uhhh yeah? lol. cloaked banshees are super common. transitioning into mass marine/medivac is also super common.
this doesn't help out against roach and bling busts lol, banshees can't kill roaches fast enough, and banelings in your base are pretty hard to deal with.
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On January 09 2012 08:12 aviator116 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 04:56 MysteryHours wrote:On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote:
- around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta? not really. a good zerg player will magicbox your thors when they're out of position, and then baneling the crap out of your marines
Magic box makes marines that much better vs mutas.
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Holy crap dude, work on your marine splits! I'm gonna be using this style because it fits my playstyle really well, constant aggression and micro makes the build more effective. I just finished watching the game on shakuras plateau vs sox, and the game would have been over like 10 minutes earlier if your marine splitting was decent. I really like this style as my marine splits are pretty good, and this style makes full use of that.
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Only marines has been my go-to for a long time in TvZ. I just haven't put the work in to get my tank macro good - though the actual micro during a push seems fairly straightforward. Multiple medivac drops are just tons of fun. The strategy does tend to slow and get more difficult when either mutas start shutting down your drops, or infestors start shutting down your pushes.
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This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling.
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On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote:
This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling.
Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast.
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On January 10 2012 00:10 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote:
This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling. Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast.
No, he doesn't even need to add Ultras.
3/3 Crackling/Infestor will beat 3/3 Marine/Medivac. And if you add maurauders, he simply won't make Ultras and maurauders eat into your supply.
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Mutas are key just to prevent the terran picking up again every time. Banelings require some really good micro vs. drops, or the terran will just drop marines into your stack of banelings while you aren't looking. Even I can do this, and I've got APM < 100.
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On January 10 2012 00:10 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote:
This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling. Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast.
So you're basically saying that no, infestor is not the counter to mass marine, mutas are? That makes no sense. Make infestors, force you to get marauders THEN POSSIBLY get mutas.
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On January 10 2012 00:23 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 00:10 crocodile wrote:On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote:
This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling. Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast. So you're basically saying that no, infestor is not the counter to mass marine, mutas are? That makes no sense. Make infestors, force you to get marauders THEN POSSIBLY get mutas.
I've tried going mass muta ling baneling, and it gets utterly destroyed. The problem with muta is because of the constant pressure you need to use your muta to help defend as its taking up larva / supply that would of otherwise been lings, which in the long run makes it almost impossible to keep growing your muta ball as it constantly keeps getting widdled down. I think they best way to defend this is to go 3rd macro hatch inside your base and focus on base defense with ling bane with fast upgrades till you get infestors. Once you get a few infestors 7+ then start transitioning into muta to help deal with marine balls as rauders get mixed in.
The biggest problem with going just ling bane infestor is it takes a stupid amount of FG's to kill the Medivac packs and if you can kill the medivac packs you will just utterly loose as they heal faster then FG can damage. This is where muta later on helps. Unless you get lucky with a few fg's early on
If anyone has a better way to deal with this, i'd love to know as i'm a zerg who has come across this a fair bit and haven't found a great away around it as of yet other then what I just posted
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EPT
