I don't know if there is a thread like this already and if there is, admins are welcome to close this thread.
I AM NOT TAKING CREDIT FOR ANY BUILD THAT MIGHT BE SIMILAR TOO. I JUST STARTED DOING THIS AND WANTED TO SHARE IT WITH THE COMMUNITY.
Anyway I am a decent masters on the NA ladder. I have fallen to about 1.1k after a recent slump. I am a member of vVv gaming and hope you enjoy my guide. This build just works for me and I hope it works for you too.
I always see people use siege tanks in TvZ, but for the last 1 month I have just been doing mass marines in this matchup. Being that the siege tank's only role is killing banelings so that your marines live longer, I thought it was logical to just make more marines and get more bases than making expensive tanks.
I normally do pure bio builds in every match up so I have a lot of experience with drop play and mmm micro, but I feel that anyone can do this build effectively. My macro is very bad, my micro is decent at best, and my multitasking is sub par. Most games I am floating 2k minerals the whole game just to prove it.
The Build
Marines
Medivacs
I normally start off with a 2 rax expand
10 supply 12 rax 14 rax 15 orbital CC when comfortable
However if it is not a block able natural I just expand without 16 marine drop and add 2 more barracks and 2 more gasses and just rush to medivacs when getting upgrades.
Upgrades are so important in this strategy because it is basically a race to 3-3 where marines become little gods
Expanding should be constant after the you secure your natural, I know I don't follow this perfectly in my replays, but I try to constantly have at least 1 CC making the whole time.
Remember to keep adding barracks. 3 per expansion should be good to keep minerals low and have an unlimited supply of marines
Game play
Once you either do your 16 marine drop or the 4 barracks into medivacs, the dropping should be totally constant. Just have your medivacs on shift drop(SHIFT+MOVE+ D where you want them to drop) so they drop automatically. This will stress the zerg out, and you can see in the replays I kill some zergs with just pure drop play. It also makes macro 10x harder for zerg because of all the multitasking you are making them do making them float minerals.
Now I know that your all thinking about infestors and fungal growth. But the thing is when zergs go fast infestors, drops only do that much more damage. He will be forced to go muta or die because you have so many marines and medivacs coming out that infestors aren't mobile enough to cover all his bases eventually starving him out because he will have to stay 2 base most of the game when you are comfortably expanding.
After he gets a good size flock of mutas, you kind of have to shut down most of your drops and just go all out with attacks on foot. If you saw MKP vs Kyrix it is kinda like that except you are on more than 2 bases and making no tanks and a lot more marines. Just keep attacking everywhere and since he is going mutas good micro can beat sling bling with no infestors.
I can't really explain to you what you can see in the replays, but you just need to send good sized groups to expansions and just keep killing them. Since your army is cheaper you will be gaining the upper hand if you trade effectively.
REMEMBER to keep attacking and dropping and expanding and making more barracks and life will be good =D
Replays of my last 8 ladder games and I am currently on 8 streak in TvZ
* Don't pay attention to the maps I didn't feel like looking up all the map's names again so they are all wrong* *Yes I have 2 accounts* *Sorry if I uploaded the same replay twice* *Tell me if they don't work in the comments please*
I am sorry if this was poorly written or to descriptive this is my first thread and hope I did it okay. If there is anything I should change please tell me.
Thanks for the contribution. I don't play T in 1v1 anymore, but I do recall a time, last fall, when Jungle Basin was a ladder map, when mass fine/medivac and fast ups was popular (MarineKing). I was going mass fine then and, soon after that, fine/raven.
Here are a couple of threads, one detailing a build not unlike yours.
The first thread does have a build order and delineates a general strategy. Considering how long ago that thread was made, I'm all for opening up a new discussion through your proposed build.
Well thanks for posting the other threads. I am pretty new to TL in general so I didn't know. I guess I will just keep the thread up and hope someone finds it helpful.
What are your upgrade priorities? I like to do tiny pushes on combat shields and +1 armor, because with the combination of the two marines actually trade evenly with speed lings with no micro whatsoever, in small groups of about 10. No other combination of two upgrades has this happen (not even stim + shield).
It's a fun style to play, personally I incorporate Marauders as I think you need some sort of "tanky" unit vs banelings. So you stim and run away with rines and the lings will be hitting your rauders which stand in a wall, making your rines far more effective to just 1v1 banelings.
I'm confused. You mention that, "tank's only role is killing banelings so that your marines live longer, I thought it was logical to just make more marines and get more bases than making expensive tanks."
Okay, so then how are we supposed to fight against MASS blings? Do u just want us to micro the crap out of our marines? Or do we have so many that it doesn't matter how many blings the zerg has?
I've played around with rine medivac in TvZ, but i've found it's quite gimmicky, if your opponent goes ling bling infestor you tend to just die unless they have horrible multitasking and manage to lose to drops (which is nothing to do with the strat you're doing or they're doing, and isn't a good thing to rely on).
Once you no longer have the army advantage on the ground, a muta switch can pin you back and put some serious hurt on. You can't beat ling bling infestor with just marine medivac unless you've already won the game earlier.
This means that doing a marine medivac timing and then transitioning into something that's viable once zerg gets a decent infestor count would be a much more solid game plan.
Gimmicky at best, the fact that it's a weird build that zergs don't see often, they don't read it too well and even if they do figure out what's going on, they tend to react improperly.
On September 23 2011 12:27 Seeker wrote: I'm confused. You mention that, "tank's only role is killing banelings so that your marines live longer, I thought it was logical to just make more marines and get more bases than making expensive tanks."
Okay, so then how are we supposed to fight against MASS blings? Do u just want us to micro the crap out of our marines? Or do we have so many that it doesn't matter how many blings the zerg has?
If you see the replays the zerg throws away all his banelings on my marines and I have a whole new batch of marines by then. So yes micro as best as you can but you can you will be trading cost effectively
On September 23 2011 12:28 CatNzHat wrote: btw you can support more than 6 rax per base...
I've played around with rine medivac in TvZ, but i've found it's quite gimmicky, if your opponent goes ling bling infestor you tend to just die unless they have horrible multitasking and manage to lose to drops (which is nothing to do with the strat you're doing or they're doing, and isn't a good thing to rely on).
Once you no longer have the army advantage on the ground, a muta switch can pin you back and put some serious hurt on. You can't beat ling bling infestor with just marine medivac unless you've already won the game earlier.
This means that doing a marine medivac timing and then transitioning into something that's viable once zerg gets a decent infestor count would be a much more solid game plan.
Gimmicky at best, the fact that it's a weird build that zergs don't see often, they don't read it too well and even if they do figure out what's going on, they tend to react improperly.
If you see the replays one of they games I go against infestor ultra and manage to win as well as other zergs going pure infestor.
Do you have a replay where zerg goes 2 base + macro hatch? It's the only problem I've had with a bio-heavy style, and you can usually fix it by adding in a VERY small # of hellions, which doesn't really mess up your mobility (also you'll have the factory sitting around anyway).
On September 23 2011 12:41 thobel wrote: Do you have a replay where zerg goes 2 base + macro hatch? It's the only problem I've had with a bio-heavy style, and you can usually fix it by adding in a VERY small # of hellions, which doesn't really mess up your mobility (also you'll have the factory sitting around anyway).
I think it would be hard to get drops in with good infestor bane positioning to 3 bases on most maps and if the zerg has very good unit control he only really needs 6 mutas to stop drops (again dependent on the map) This seems a lot like mass roach drop play vs protoss which relies on just out multi tasking the other player. I can't view replays right now but it doesn't seem like mass marines could engage something like 12 infestors with bane/ling. Still if you did something like drop play do delay expands mutas and infestors and after your drops started getting shut down start teching ghost with more bases that zerg or something like that this build would be like crazy scary. Maybe you already do as I said, I can't view replays ^^
As a zerg player i don't have much to add on to this thread other than if your having trouble pulling this style off you should try this UMS out that called Marine split challenge by Griffith were all you have to do is kill an increasing number of banelings with only marines and micro
On September 23 2011 12:27 Seeker wrote: I'm confused. You mention that, "tank's only role is killing banelings so that your marines live longer, I thought it was logical to just make more marines and get more bases than making expensive tanks."
Okay, so then how are we supposed to fight against MASS blings? Do u just want us to micro the crap out of our marines? Or do we have so many that it doesn't matter how many blings the zerg has?
If you see the replays the zerg throws away all his banelings on my marines and I have a whole new batch of marines by then. So yes micro as best as you can but you can you will be trading cost effectively
Pretty much. The actual solution to early game stuff is mass speedlings. Banelings as strange as it sounds trades poorly with straight mass marine since you throw away so much gas that you can never really tech up effectively and then you die. They are only really really good on creep in mediumish numbers to force the marines to run so your speedlings can get a surround.
Straight marine mass drop has actually become very hard style to play due to the buffed Fungal. Its very hard to win medium/late game without getting off a good bunker rush or killing drones and ovies early on or something like that.
Additionally there are large maps that favor hellion map control plays over this stuff. That being said, its probably the best style to play to get your mechanics better. Also fun.
EDIT: I seem to recall that skipping siege opens you up for a 2 base econ bust.
On September 23 2011 12:27 Seeker wrote: I'm confused. You mention that, "tank's only role is killing banelings so that your marines live longer, I thought it was logical to just make more marines and get more bases than making expensive tanks."
Okay, so then how are we supposed to fight against MASS blings? Do u just want us to micro the crap out of our marines? Or do we have so many that it doesn't matter how many blings the zerg has?
If you see the replays the zerg throws away all his banelings on my marines and I have a whole new batch of marines by then. So yes micro as best as you can but you can you will be trading cost effectively
Pretty much. The actual solution to early game stuff is mass speedlings. Banelings as strange as it sounds trades poorly with straight mass marine since you throw away so much gas that you can never really tech up effectively and then you die. They are only really really good on creep in mediumish numbers to force the marines to run so your speedlings can get a surround.
Straight marine mass drop has actually become very hard style to play due to the buffed Fungal. Its very hard to win medium/late game without getting off a good bunker rush or killing drones and ovies early on or something like that.
Additionally there are large maps that favor hellion map control plays over this stuff. That being said, its probably the best style to play to get your mechanics better. Also fun.
EDIT: I seem to recall that skipping siege opens you up for a 2 base econ bust.
If a zerg goes muta/ling/bling, you're kinda f'd in the ass, assuming he has good macro/micro.
As for micro...
Not my words, Destiny's.
And even if you have tanks, it is easy as breathing for a flock of mutalisks to take out a tank line while your marines are busy not doing to a baneling group (see above).
I like these styles of play =D. Even thou tank/marine is a very powerful combo just pure marines with micro and multi pronged attacks can be very annoying to deal with (I played zerg and actually had more issues with these pressure builds then tank marine which is so immobile.) Now playing terran i attempt to bio every game even i TvT which nets me some brutal loses >.< but I feel like im having far more fun and giving myself more counter/harass options. Good first guide mate I hope to start seeing more of you. Keep with it =D
On September 23 2011 14:00 citizenleaf wrote: I like these styles of play =D. Even thou tank/marine is a very powerful combo just pure marines with micro and multi pronged attacks can be very annoying to deal with (I played zerg and actually had more issues with these pressure builds then tank marine which is so immobile.) Now playing terran i attempt to bio every game even i TvT which nets me some brutal loses >.< but I feel like im having far more fun and giving myself more counter/harass options. Good first guide mate I hope to start seeing more of you. Keep with it =D
Thanks I am committed to going only Bio in every match up after playing boring mech for the longest time. I will try to get some bio TvT guides up in the future =D
Do you happen to be Zarahtra? I just lost this week to someone who went mass marine because I thought I could kill his marine ball moving around the map with speedlings/slowbanes and got RAPED because he just split and then killed everything, remade his 20 marines and stimmed into my bases.
I used to use this strategy a lot. Unfortunately I suck at macroing while microing. So I transitioned to something less micro intensive while I focused on learning that.
I used a different variation though that you may want to include in your guide. It hits a very nice timing with 1/1/stim/CS. I'll see if I can remember the timings...
I was a little slow on getting up the factory/armory combo here, but allowed me to fit in range on turrets nicely. If you use the first 100 gas after the 4 upgrades for a factory, it times nicely with the finish of 1/1 and your armory coming up.
Push timings come out at ~9:00 for 1/1/CS/stim, ~11 minutes for your medivacs, ~12 minutes for your 2/2 (if you get the armory timing right ), ~16 minutes for your 3/3. Usually see a large window for constant aggression between 11 and 17 minutes.
Don't focus too hard on my bad macro, just the timings involved.
Thanks for putting the reps up! Enjoyed watching them.
As a zergie I am kind of scared of this kind of build because well controlled and medivacced 3-3 marines are god like. The only way the zerg has a chance to kill this is by spending gas and as you showed in your replays it doesn't matter because a new wave of marines will appear immediately after the current wave is killed.
I'd figure even if the zergie goes hive you can outmanoeuvre broodlords quite easily (just ignore them and base race) and micro away from ultras. The theory is that it barely matters if the marines die as more are always coming and the zerg keeps spending his gas. I guess the only cost efficient approach to deal with it would be well controlled infestors (that don't die) or transfused ultras.
The only hope that zerg has at this point is to attack your production and economy and we all know how base races end vT :D
there are players doing this in gsl aswell so dont say "if the zerg is good he wont have a problem" there obviosuly good-_-
i cant remember which terran it was doin this, i know marine king does this style but this week there has bein two other terrans using this style v zerg and they destroyed Z everytime
Marines are pretty ridiculous. But if the zerg stays on creep he's fine. I think that's why people are saying if the zerg is good he won't have a problem. If he recognizes he doesn't need to invest gas in mutas then you're basically screwed unless you build tanks. A zerg with all that gas is dangerous. My guess is it would be pretty much impossible to set foot on creep without tanks.
I ran into this style just the other day [~1000 pt masters]. It was really tough but I pulled off a win. As the zerg u HAVE to be on top op unit control/positioning and minimap awareness. If u focus too much on defending your third, lets say, and 24 2/2 marines chew through your tech in your main it's GG. I went mass upgraded lings, mutas, and a few infestors at bases to lock down marine groups. The only time I made banelings was when I felt the need to say "Tah Tah" to uncomfortably quick planetary fortress expos that my oppenent snuck up, and for the final push into his main.
I don't know if this strategy is really viable at the top level of play tho. It may be easy to wear out some random Z on ladder, but top zergs should have no trouble keeping up with the micro/macro involved to defend this.
HalbyStarcraft is a masters player who regularly posts videos of this style on youtube. Calling it uber-ups, his preference is early 2rax pressure into expo followed by turtling to 2-2 with stim/CC and medivacs by 15min when he pushes out to take his 3rd. Typical muta/ling/bling is crushed by the constant stream of marines, especially if the zerg is too muta heavy.
On September 23 2011 14:07 Antimatterz wrote: Do you happen to be Zarahtra? I just lost this week to someone who went mass marine because I thought I could kill his marine ball moving around the map with speedlings/slowbanes and got RAPED because he just split and then killed everything, remade his 20 marines and stimmed into my bases.
Haha
Edit; Will check this out, need more ways to get into mass rine. Rine aggression is just so redicilous, though one misclick and you can be boned
I've done this a few times are low level but I usually mix in a really small number of marauders (8:1 ratio or so) just for the slow combined with relentless attacking.
I hate playing against this style ZvT Only a lowly diamond player but it took soooo much effort to win and he neglected drops badly.
I won eventually with bane/ling/infestor, taking bases where I could... took forever to kill him when I'd "won" though; I was amazed at how many marines you can make
It's a fun style, but you are definitely overestimating it. A good zerg w/ turtle infestor play (or, honestly, mutas work too to stop drops...) will rarely lose to this. It really doesn't work well unless you can get an advantage with a timing push before he gets any mutas or infestors/bane speed finished. You can tell me it does all you want, but the fact is that you are wrong if you are playing someone good. I used to use this style allllll the time.
Making marauders makes it a bit more durable vs Infestor play though. Your claim that Infestor play loses straight up to drops is simply untrue - it does not take many infestors to turtle, he will only have problems if he tries to move out too much.
On September 23 2011 23:21 Pogo0o wrote: I have a pretty nice solution to ur build - roaches
Roaches are kind of in the same boat as blings(up until infestor support anyway), they don't really do *that* well against rines, they slow the zerg's tech down and aren't mobile until speed is done. I normally transition into tanks mind(using heavy rine aggression to slow the zerg down and get fast upgrades/medivacs), but if I see roaches, I just relax a bit, play greedier(as in faster inbase 3rd) and drop/wait for medivacs and/or tanks and then just start again. Roaches far from counter heavy rine, if anything I welcome the zerg wasting gas on them.
On September 23 2011 12:27 Seeker wrote: I'm confused. You mention that, "tank's only role is killing banelings so that your marines live longer, I thought it was logical to just make more marines and get more bases than making expensive tanks."
Okay, so then how are we supposed to fight against MASS blings? Do u just want us to micro the crap out of our marines? Or do we have so many that it doesn't matter how many blings the zerg has?
If you see the replays the zerg throws away all his banelings on my marines and I have a whole new batch of marines by then. So yes micro as best as you can but you can you will be trading cost effectively
im at work and cant watch the replay. does he have baneling speed and burrow? really speed and burrow for banelings will burn this build to the ground imo
Basically, as Pokebunny said, you need to do damage with timing pushes. The challenge obviously arises whether you can delay their tech enough with making them waste gas (and minerals to an extent) on defence before their core infestors/mutas are up. If you can delay their tech to infestors to before the 1/1/CS/Stim push, then you are almost guaranteed to do a significant amount of damage to help delay them further.
On September 23 2011 23:13 Pokebunny wrote: It's a fun style, but you are definitely overestimating it. A good zerg w/ turtle infestor play (or, honestly, mutas work too to stop drops...) will rarely lose to this. It really doesn't work well unless you can get an advantage with a timing push before he gets any mutas or infestors/bane speed finished. You can tell me it does all you want, but the fact is that you are wrong if you are playing someone good. I used to use this style allllll the time.
Making marauders makes it a bit more durable vs Infestor play though. Your claim that Infestor play loses straight up to drops is simply untrue - it does not take many infestors to turtle, he will only have problems if he tries to move out too much.
One thing I've never quite figured out is what map type the all marines all the time style favor. Obviously maps with short rush distance an expo patterns that are kinda strung out. But I've never found a map that highly discourages it much, especially with dropping so I was wondering if anyone had any insights on it.
It's stupid how terran wins with three units. Good thing GOOD zerg players can just get queens and early upgraded ling/bling to counter this entire build. Burrow and hooks will also destroy you. Then they can tech to mutas or festors. Festors you can go Destiny style hit squad drops and and maybe a fungal here and there and marines will just turn to goo.
I've been playing around with this build quite a lot, and would like to know how you counter an eco baneling bust? Right now I scout with a hidden scv around 6.30 - 6.45 to check saturation on natural and what units pop out of the cocoons and then scan the main --> usually I mass bunkers behind my rax which works in holding it off, but from there on it is quite hard to properly transition.
XNC for example, shorter push distance, a few smaller chokes to work with, relatively easy to take map control during a push. These all give you a stronger first hit. Late game, with the smaller map size and harassable cliff areas give the zerg a stronger chance at holding with muta based plays, and less chance with infestor based play.
Tal'darim though has a lot longer attack distance, including massive flankable areas in the middle if cross-positions. This makes your initial push have to either move out and risk flanking when un-upgraded, or waste a lot of your timing push moving across the map. Late game though, the wider distances and excess expansions allow the marine play to have multi-pronged effectiveness, and give muta responses a more defensive feel. Infestors play a bigger role though now because of the distance available to kite the army around.
In the end, there isn't directly a map type that is going to be terrible for this style, but you yourself have to work out what the advantages/disadvantages are of each before adapting your aggression levels to it.
I've played with a build like this in some custom games, and won quite a few of them. I'm high gold and I was beating plat and diamond players with this marine/expand style. I saw SlayerSDragon do it on his stream when he was laddering up on the EU server, he was just screwing around, but I thought, hey that looks like a fun way to practice macro off of multiple bases! At gold level, I have trouble keeping up with my macro once I get on more than 2-3 bases. So with this build I was just building CC's and barracks, most games I had ~15 barracks and was building supply depots like crazy. Lots of fun! Many players just get overwhelmed by this, due to the sheer numbers of marines, and the fact that it is rather unexpected.
using this as my go to as a i get to grips with playing a solid macro diamond TvZ game. i was favouring 2rax->5rax before but this feels more refined and has better upgrades with drop capability. <3 this very much!
On September 23 2011 22:35 Evangelist wrote: I've done this a few times are low level but I usually mix in a really small number of marauders (8:1 ratio or so) just for the slow combined with relentless attacking.
It's like playing a zerg. Very fun.
I can assure you it is nothing whatsoever like playing zerg.
Now can you explain what happens if he gets both infestors and mutas, or starts to sit 1 infestor at each of his bases like Leenock does?
On September 24 2011 23:27 elemental523 wrote: It's stupid how terran wins with three units. Good thing GOOD zerg players can just get queens and early upgraded ling/bling to counter this entire build. Burrow and hooks will also destroy you. Then they can tech to mutas or festors. Festors you can go Destiny style hit squad drops and and maybe a fungal here and there and marines will just turn to goo.
It's stupid how people think that 3 unit compositions aren't diverse.
Let's see, it's stupid how zerg can just go muta ling bling. Hey that's 3 units right there. ??? Or according to what you said, zerg can mass 2 units (ling bling) and kill terran, who uses three units.
???
Not to mention that the races are different, so you can't compare them like that. Unlike Protoss, Terran's tech tree is designed to be more split up, so that you can (though not to as much extent as you could in BW) go pure bio, go pure mech, etc. Now with Protoss obviously you cannot go pure Robotics units or pure Stargate units, nor even mainly. But with Terran you can.
it's how the races are made, stop qq'ing
Even if you meant to type 2 units, since this guide is marine/medivac, it's still illogical.
@Skiro - On early game, proper scouting, 3 bunkers + SCVs to repair. On mid-game, the opponent shouldn't be in position to all-in you, but if so, add a line of tanking maraudeurs.
P.S. After some baneling craziness in late-game I saw two 3/3 marudeurs + two medivacs able to destroy a whole army of glings. Those are a great transition choice to mix in your marines, espacially if there are no mutas.
On September 25 2011 09:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Now can you explain what happens if he gets both infestors and mutas, or starts to sit 1 infestor at each of his bases like Leenock does?
On September 24 2011 23:27 elemental523 wrote: It's stupid how terran wins with three units. Good thing GOOD zerg players can just get queens and early upgraded ling/bling to counter this entire build. Burrow and hooks will also destroy you. Then they can tech to mutas or festors. Festors you can go Destiny style hit squad drops and and maybe a fungal here and there and marines will just turn to goo.
It's stupid how people think that 3 unit compositions aren't diverse.
Let's see, it's stupid how zerg can just go muta ling bling. Hey that's 3 units right there. ??? Or according to what you said, zerg can mass 2 units (ling bling) and kill terran, who uses three units.
???
Not to mention that the races are different, so you can't compare them like that. Unlike Protoss, Terran's tech tree is designed to be more split up, so that you can (though not to as much extent as you could in BW) go pure bio, go pure mech, etc. Now with Protoss obviously you cannot go pure Robotics units or pure Stargate units, nor even mainly. But with Terran you can.
it's how the races are made, stop qq'ing
Even if you meant to type 2 units, since this guide is marine/medivac, it's still illogical.
I think the correct response to a zerg that hunkers down with infestors is to take bases and then swap into tanks. In fact, its probably a good idea to go mass marine opening so you can expand and then throw down like 6 fact and turtle into a massive marine/tank army.
On September 25 2011 09:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Now can you explain what happens if he gets both infestors and mutas, or starts to sit 1 infestor at each of his bases like Leenock does?
On September 24 2011 23:27 elemental523 wrote: It's stupid how terran wins with three units. Good thing GOOD zerg players can just get queens and early upgraded ling/bling to counter this entire build. Burrow and hooks will also destroy you. Then they can tech to mutas or festors. Festors you can go Destiny style hit squad drops and and maybe a fungal here and there and marines will just turn to goo.
It's stupid how people think that 3 unit compositions aren't diverse.
Let's see, it's stupid how zerg can just go muta ling bling. Hey that's 3 units right there. ??? Or according to what you said, zerg can mass 2 units (ling bling) and kill terran, who uses three units.
???
Not to mention that the races are different, so you can't compare them like that. Unlike Protoss, Terran's tech tree is designed to be more split up, so that you can (though not to as much extent as you could in BW) go pure bio, go pure mech, etc. Now with Protoss obviously you cannot go pure Robotics units or pure Stargate units, nor even mainly. But with Terran you can.
it's how the races are made, stop qq'ing
Even if you meant to type 2 units, since this guide is marine/medivac, it's still illogical.
I think the correct response to a zerg that hunkers down with infestors is to take bases and then swap into tanks. In fact, its probably a good idea to go mass marine opening so you can expand and then throw down like 6 fact and turtle into a massive marine/tank army.
Ok thanks. So basically the build/style still works, but eventually you need to transition out of it eh?
It depends on how well just shoving marines down his throat is working. However, you're going to have to figure out how to beat a zerg that entrenches with defilers and the ez solution to that is taking expo and getting tanks/Thors (due to NP nerf) before he gets enough infestors to support BLs/Ultras or switch to muta.
.. Unless you want to figure out how to put down 2 extra ports to make banshees or something so you can have a Sair/Reaver-like flying ball of pwn :p.
Actually, I'm kinda curious, how many gas geysers do you need to support mass marine/medivac with upgrades? 3?
If that's the case that speeds up your expand ability a fair amount.
Strategies like this are the reason I stopped playing zerg . You have to be an expert in every play style or you just lose to something you haven't seen before. No offense to the OP, you are a great player, but this is gimmicky as shit. It requires a very different response from zerg then marine tank though, which is probably why it works so often. If I had to guess,. playing around with it, the best way to beat it would be to sit on two bases for a sec and go roach/ling/bling, punish terran if they get greedy with a third, and then take a lot of bases once you have the mutas to cover drops. Roach/ling/bling/muta/infestor just has every tool imaginable to stop this, so I can't imagine this would carry well at all into the late game.
This is all per Halby, the master's league guys discussed before, but if they make Mutas it's pretty much an auto-win. Maybe if they are really REALLY patient with their Mutas they can be helpful, but get caught just once with them out of position vs. Stimmed 3/3 Marines and they turn into bloody fireworks. In fact, Halby does lots of small "annoyance" drops before he's really trying to push out just to make them waste money on Mutas.
He tries to pick a fight off creep (wants Zergie to see him going for a 15 minute 3rd) and then plans to lose the first couple fights. But with constant, constant reinforcement over the course of a few minutes, your lings/roaches/whatever are dead and your Infestors are low/out of energy. Rally outside of their base and keep fighting a small battle CONTINUOUSLY so they are forced to create nothing but army and defend that spot to survive. The whole goal is to Larva-lock the zerg, and with decent splits and small fights bling/infestor just aren't cost-effective, especially after the FG nerf. It's not hard for even a gold scrub like me to split 10-15 marines at a time as they join the fight.
If they commit with a big base attack, just base trade, as 3/3 Marines will waste multiple Zerg bases far faster than Zerg can kill yours.
It's not a "deathball" strategy, it's making that "units lost" figure creep higher and higher for Zerg from 15 minutes on until they collapse under the weight of it. Pure attrition.
Little extras he throws in to make it more effective.
One Starport making Banshees to go Infestor hunting. The more infestors the more Banshees. They do a great job at it and you aren't spending gas on much else besides Medivacs. A couple Banshees is a terrible trade for Infestor energy. If they make anti-air to kill them it's just more easy meat for your marines.
He's been opening with some hellion and Marauder pressure (poking off creep & killing tumors), which keeps Zerg defensive, delays blings, and encourages fast Mutas. All solid-gold responses for mass upgraded Marines. If they barely defend, he all-ins with SCVs.
Patrol and carpet-bomb spreads everywhere. Not hard to do quickly and very effective.
Again, I am just passing on what he talks about, but it works almost every single time for me in Gold (only really lose when the build comes off too slow and they go Ultra) and Halby just kills with it in Masters. Give it a chance and watch HalbyStarcraft, it's his highest win % by far and he's beaten #1 ranked Master Zergs.
Watched those replays, and WOW. Many times I keep thinking you're just going to lose and there's no way you can break him, but then there'll be a single engagement when his Infestors are out of energy or he didn't morph any banelings in time and he just takes so much damage while your momentum has been constantly building all game long and he folds.
When I used to play Zerg in Master league, I had this strat used on me three times: first time I was going Infestor/Ling into Ultra and got crushed by drop play. Second time, I was diligent about static defense with the same strat, still lost. Third time I went Ling/Bling/Muta and thought I was safe, but his attacks were non-stop and just kept getting stronger, I could not expand, couldn't keep my Muta count very high, and couldn't keep up with upgrades so I couldn't engage his army without Banelings so I eventually just crumbled.
Now that I play Terran in Diamond, I can't wait to try this out. Will post feedback here when possible.
Okay, tried the build multiple times yesterday on ladder. It's very interesting because im finding after any 1 or 2 rax FE almost every Zerg goes for an economic baneling bust, but when they don't I can often catch them playing greedy.
Also, im finding a lot of success doing mass double-drop play against zergs who skip mutas. Infestors or roach/baneling compositions simply can't stop drops from doing damage effectively. Even infestor broodlord isn't exceptionally tough to deal with if you suicide groups of marines in.
I think the only way to beat this style is to be able to not only crush an attack completely with muta/ling/bling, but to counter attack and do damage in return to prevent the terran from being able to support their marine production.
I like the look of this. I find tanks terribly tedious and boring. I'm only bronze but I'd imagine the pressure from the constant drops and reinforcements will be too much for most zergs around my level.
On September 29 2011 02:26 crocodile wrote: Okay, tried the build multiple times yesterday on ladder. It's very interesting because im finding after any 1 or 2 rax FE almost every Zerg goes for an economic baneling bust, but when they don't I can often catch them playing greedy.
Also, im finding a lot of success doing mass double-drop play against zergs who skip mutas. Infestors or roach/baneling compositions simply can't stop drops from doing damage effectively. Even infestor broodlord isn't exceptionally tough to deal with if you suicide groups of marines in.
I think the only way to beat this style is to be able to not only crush an attack completely with muta/ling/bling, but to counter attack and do damage in return to prevent the terran from being able to support their marine production.
Get siege and 2 tanks from your factory and you will be able to hold it if it is a problem. What sort of sim city do you do to hold with just marines?
This kind of build is easy for me to counter, I'm usually well defended against drops because of my overlord placement covers all the areas I would normally see drops coming in from. Or if I was to forget which I really normally will or if I'm scared terran kills them off before dropping then I'll just placed a small force of lings near the edge of my base to intercept drops coming in then I'll have the lings follow the dropships to kill marines as they drop, easy enough. If marines want to charge my front door, I'll have plenty of banelings lying in wait. I've become so annoyed with drops and mass marines killing me in the lower leagues that before promoting to silver and gold, I made sure to step up my game to deal with that kind of play with help from my gold and platinum level terran friends.
It sounds like it could be a good build, but I think the marine/tank build trumps over only marines if you're patient and advance your tanks slowly across the map with thor and marine support. But I am by no means a diamond, master, or grandmaster so I can't really go and say "oh this build will never in a million years kill me" it could, but at the gold level I'm in, it works only 3/10 games they try any huge drop play.
Nice build. But what do you do vs 3/3 ling ultra? Infestors at every base will kill the drops and stall till ultra tech. Just tried this vs HayprO and didn't really go well.
I have also developed basically the same startegy also from Hansk's opening, completely independently!
-Key points are:
-Never let your drops die to ling/bling, just pikc up fly away and then go back a bit later preferably when your second drop hits the third (or send first drop to 3rd and have 2nd drop hit main again) - even better split up the first drop to go to the 3rd and then send one medivac back to the natural while your second drop team is hitting the main....most zerg crumble under this sort of thing immediately. -this part is SO important if you let your drops die needlessly the strat becomes SO MUCH WEAKER - this matters more then anything else except maybe pumping constant marines.
-Make sure after your medivacs and upgrades are running you go up to 7+ rax on 2 base and 10+ on 3base
-Take your 3rd quickly, you need more marines!
-make sure you get an armory so you can start 2/2 asap!
- you can delay the gas on your second for a bit, but once you have 7rax up you need to get those gas so that you can maintain upgrades and mass reactor medivacs.
-its still a good idea to mix some tanks in since you have a factory and they are good for the on the ground pushes against banelings - you can support a factor reactor starport and upgrades off 4 gas. As long as you cut a few tanks/medivacs here and there
On October 08 2011 01:57 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I know the best counter to this strategy! Mass zergling!!!
Zergling are better to kill mass marine than bandeling in the first 12 minutes.
The thing is, even if you get upgraded lings, you have to be very good at knowing how many lings u need to handle each threat, like if you send 20lings after a 2 medivac drop, say goodbye to your lings and meanwhile the terran lost nothing. So what I am saying is that it is difficult to split your lings to defend 2/3 places and have each split be of large enough size to defend properly and each time you miscalc u lose all your lings whereas terran can just pick up and leave where the big group of lings is esp if you don't have banelings.
On October 08 2011 01:57 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I know the best counter to this strategy! Mass zergling!!!
Zergling are better to kill mass marine than bandeling in the first 12 minutes.
Uh..... Not necessarily my friend
If the marine count is small enough that there isn't an actual ball, then yes, zerglings counter marines. Even then, you need at least three times as many speedlings as marines. If he has stim and shield, then it's more like 4 or 5 times the count. When a ball starts to form, then yes, you need blings. But you'll still need a lot of slings to stop kiting and marine splits.
You also need to learn how to recognize a troll @FinestHour
After many off account ladder games I still think that eventually we have to throw in sometihng on the ground that either tanks for the marines (marauders) or deals aoe damage (tanks). Going ravens against mass ling bling style is fucking suicide X_X. (HSM ling, see it run into your army. HSM explode on your army.)
I usually rage so much at this build when I play against it. So fustrating if the terran player is decent at micro. Especially if they use their brains and scan out the creep tumors.
On October 08 2011 09:27 ODKStevez wrote: I usually rage so much at this build when I play against it. So fustrating if the terran player is decent at micro. Especially if they use their brains and scan out the creep tumors.
But its definitely not the same rage as against toss right? Everyone hates toss
Basically I see this build has it's role, and I think that it's role is an agressive opener to catch your opponent off guard, but once zerg turtles up a decent army, you will need siege tanks to deal with it, then you will be pinned and taking econ damage from harassment whilst zerg out expands you, and it will lead into a typical TvZ situation with zerg having some map control, and terran pushing out once they build up the army of their choice.
You used to see 4rax stim combat pressure into medivacs quite often in TvZ, it was one of those go-to pressure builds to close the game out if you thought you got an advantage early game with a 2 rax for example.
Anybody watch Spanishiwa die to this on his stream.... twice in a row? Very entertaining to watch as someone who does only this build (a la Halby Uber Ups) vs Zerg. I don't think Spanishiwa ever really even saw the Terrans base in either games, was completely caught up in moving base to base and defending, having to keep all his mutas near his bases to pick off Medivacs and prevent Terran from just picking up and dropping the main.
:O this is funny. Another thread on how OP marines are :D
I'm thinking about this, and it seems to me some sort of roach baneling army could beat this. Have you played that?
I see the power of this build in the early game, where marines are very strong. But once your opponent DOES finally manage to get his Eco up, he can contain you with good ovy spread, a little ling hit squad for killing drops, and mutas. The reason you must be winning is simply because you are playing against people who cannot pull mutaling or infestors off as good as you can control marines.
The point is that the constant stream of marines is a pinning force. It's not the build/big battle/build/big battle tempo of Mech or Bio/Mech. The idea is to never have more than a few seconds (once you hit your upgrades) where a fight isn't occurring. With the speed a pack of upgraded marines eats a hatchery + tech Zerg has to commit troops to defense. This keeps Infestor energy low, baneling count low, and most importantly, larva count low. And for every hatch lost, production capability drops even lower, compounding the problem.
If Zerg saves up and tries to counter attack in force, Terran can instantly jump into a base-race situation which will pretty much always work out in Terrans favor. That army was the only thing saving your tech and production from being cut off, and even if the Terran main gets sacked your killing a no-longer-mining base with some of the production and likely idle upgrade structures that have already done their job. I can still pump out tons of marines from the other bases and simply rally them right into your bases. (All from watching a Masters do it over and over and over to other Masters and doing it myself since Bronze)
Roach + Baneling = far less gas for Infestors, which is the most effective defense against this play. I celebrate whenever I see Roaches, as that means my medivac cloud is much safer and whenever I want, I can pick up my boys and leave. And this build gives you deep, deep walls of barracks with bunkers thrown in. Roaches simply aren't very good against walls + bunkers and the same goes for Banelings. Also, it's not terribly hard to swap out for Marauders if you see a heavy Roach commitment.
I've messed around with a similar build to this with only marines and pumping out upgrades and I feel that a transition to get siegetanks on the tail-end (when you are putting up your 3rd / 4th) of your natural expansion is necessary. Infestors and blings are too damn strong against marines to just stay with mariens the whole game and it is not effecient at all to stay marines. Tanks provide that buffer that allows your marines to stay mobile and also allow them to stay stationary. Since there is a lot of pressure from drops on the zerg it also leaves a chance that they just transition to an all-in, and with a weak front of units because of all the drops going on you could just straight up lose to that. Transitions to broodlords, if it goes to late-game, might cause a little trouble if you also aren't aware of a greater spire up. Just my thoughts (mid masters 1000 points with 200 bonus pool avaliable). I will be trying this again, however, I'm not sure how my results will turn out. EDIT: I also remember that a zerg with good creep spread is also going to shut this down well. Also any quick ultras are good against this style. I know this can defenitely work for most people in bronze-diamond level skill but it becomes a lot trickier higher up. This is very strong for low level play because of how easy it is to macro this kind of build and it really teaches a player how to use marines and how to stay on equal or more bases as a zerg.
On October 11 2011 00:28 DarkCore wrote: :O this is funny. Another thread on how OP marines are :D
I'm thinking about this, and it seems to me some sort of roach baneling army could beat this. Have you played that?
I see the power of this build in the early game, where marines are very strong. But once your opponent DOES finally manage to get his Eco up, he can contain you with good ovy spread, a little ling hit squad for killing drops, and mutas. The reason you must be winning is simply because you are playing against people who cannot pull mutaling or infestors off as good as you can control marines.
Watch the replays and don't QQ about balance. He's playing in high master league. These are the kinds of posts that should get you banned.
I've been using this build in mid-master league for a while now, and I'm finding that you can lose to any standard Zerg composition if played correctly, but I still win 80% of my TvZ this way.
Muta/Ling/Bling If the Zerg stays committing to Mutas, keeps up in upgrades, and denies your bases. If the Zerg doesn't let you get a third, or consistently kills your reactors and SCVs with Mutas, you can't build any momentum, you can't take map control, and you can't drop, so he can just build a huge econ and overrun you.
Basically, the Zerg needs to deflect your attacks and hurt your economy or production AS WELL otherwise he can't win. This is how I lose most often, but most Zergs who go Muta/Ling forget to upgrade their lings so 3-3 god mode marines get ridiculous.
Infestor/Ling The second way, which isn't as good, is to go Infestor-Ling with quick double upgrades, which only works because Marines are not as insanely good against Zerglings on even upgrades. The Zerg has to play very conservatively: Survive with lings at first, then get Infestors out and take a third, while massing static defense at each base and not forgetting upgrades. With a transition to Hive Tech, the Zerg can get Infestor/Broodlord or Ling/Infestor/Ultra out and overrun you.
The weakness here is that no reasonable amount of static defense can stop two Medivacs full of Marines. At a certain point the Zerg CANNOT defend all his bases and still have a solid enough army to overrun your bases when you're producing ~15-20 marines and 2-4 Medivacs at a time, especially if you're playing this style with lots of orbitals and a low SCV count.
Roach/Baneling This seems like it should roflstomp mass marine, but the key weakness of this style is that it's not only time consuming and larva intensive to get your army (lings first, then morph to banelings, and producing just the right amount of roaches), but it's hilariously weak to drop play. With no AA besides queens and spores, stopping drops from landing in your base whenever you move out is next to impossible, so the only truly effective way to win with this strategy is a big Roach/Baneling bust in the early midgame. Roaches are durable enough and Banelings plentiful enough that you can kill a Terran if you can stop his initial drop and attack before his marine production is too terrifying, but the timing is very slim and I've only lost to it like once.
On October 11 2011 00:28 DarkCore wrote: :O this is funny. Another thread on how OP marines are :D
I'm thinking about this, and it seems to me some sort of roach baneling army could beat this. Have you played that?
I see the power of this build in the early game, where marines are very strong. But once your opponent DOES finally manage to get his Eco up, he can contain you with good ovy spread, a little ling hit squad for killing drops, and mutas. The reason you must be winning is simply because you are playing against people who cannot pull mutaling or infestors off as good as you can control marines.
Yea, any decent zerg player can just turtle and then squash you with pretty much any unit comp, you rely on them sucking to win, not very solid way to play.
On October 11 2011 00:28 DarkCore wrote: :O this is funny. Another thread on how OP marines are :D
I'm thinking about this, and it seems to me some sort of roach baneling army could beat this. Have you played that?
I see the power of this build in the early game, where marines are very strong. But once your opponent DOES finally manage to get his Eco up, he can contain you with good ovy spread, a little ling hit squad for killing drops, and mutas. The reason you must be winning is simply because you are playing against people who cannot pull mutaling or infestors off as good as you can control marines.
Yea, any decent zerg player can just turtle and then squash you with pretty much any unit comp, you rely on them sucking to win, not very solid way to play.
By your logic, Spanishiwa is terrible, right? (hint: wrong)
I do a variation on this strategy sort of at the same level as you. I've only lost once. basically it gets you about 30 marines with stim and shield, 4 medivacs, a quick 3rd, and +1 on the way at 9 to 10 minutes. it absolutely wrecks 2/3 base muta openings. you just need decent kiting and marine splitting micro.I've only lost once with this build when I accidentally ran into burrowed banelings. a quick 3/3 is optional, go for lots and lots of medivacs and engage CONSTANTLY. doesn't matter if your marines die, just keep saving the medivacs so you're trading a mineral army against a gas army. don't bother taking a 4th, just go super aggressive on 3 base and constant marines and medivac production. eventually, you hit a critical point where you have 1 medivac for every two marines or so, and then you can just crush the Zerg. the key is to be hyper aggressive so Zerg can't harrass you with mutas and trade marines for banelings. abuse terrain, hide behind minerals, etc. it's extremely powerful. of course, if the Zerg gets infestors, give up.
build order is 12 rax fast command centre and drop 2 refineries right after u take the nat and get yourself up to 6 rax, the first two rax you have get tech labs immediately, first one to finish research stim and the other one research combat shields. when you put down the star port get an eng bay and start 1/0
On October 11 2011 00:28 DarkCore wrote: :O this is funny. Another thread on how OP marines are :D
I'm thinking about this, and it seems to me some sort of roach baneling army could beat this. Have you played that?
I see the power of this build in the early game, where marines are very strong. But once your opponent DOES finally manage to get his Eco up, he can contain you with good ovy spread, a little ling hit squad for killing drops, and mutas. The reason you must be winning is simply because you are playing against people who cannot pull mutaling or infestors off as good as you can control marines.
Yea, any decent zerg player can just turtle and then squash you with pretty much any unit comp, you rely on them sucking to win, not very solid way to play.
By your logic, Spanishiwa is terrible, right? (hint: wrong)
If you play Z, I'll GLADLY play you with this style on any map you want, and if you lose you can still argue that you suck if you want. Crocodile.703
That was a pretty good game. Spanishiwa is really good, I normally don't watch zerg streams. I like how the stream chat exploded with "terran op!!!" right away
edit: he also said, while watching the replay, that he was ahead in econ when he definitely wasn't. Then he fell pretty far behind in income and never caught up. The terran did a great job of keeping the him pinned though, and upgrades, good use of mass marines.
I've been doing this reactor hellion expand opening into 1 or 2 banshee harrass. Then I get a really early third while delaying zerg's third and containing. It flows well into mass marine and medivacs if you get the add-on swap timings down, which I'm still working on. With the econ lead you can really leverage non-stop marine pressure to bully the zerg down, and keep expanding.
With good micro, it can work. But it's just very fragile.
I agree that tanks are stupid in the matchup. They suck against everything but roaches, and unless your micro is perfect, they rarely even hit the banelings a-moved into your army (while you're freaking out trying to spread marines, macro, focus tanks, and survive the engagement)
I've been going thors instead of tanks just to absorb damage. In plat/diamond, it seems to work decently, as even if he clicks banes on marines, the thors sheer size just makes them derp out... And thors sitting ducks that become useless to mutas while my marines micro around
Now I know that your all thinking about infestors and fungal growth. But the thing is when zergs go fast infestors, drops only do that much more damage. He will be forced to go muta or die because you have so many marines and medivacs coming out that infestors aren't mobile enough to cover all his bases eventually starving him out because he will have to stay 2 base most of the game when you are comfortably expanding.
What if Zerg is playing mass upgraded sling/infestor?
I've played mass marine using this stratagy and I've found so long as I spread my OL and watch my mini-map I can intercept all drops with my spread out slings and still focus on the infestor with no deviation into mutalisks.
At that point it's mass 1/1 2/2 slings/infestor vs mass 1/1 marine/medivac.
I can see how this is perfectly viable vs mass slings, but I think you're not giving Zerg enough credit to nullify drops without mutas.
edit: Also, mass sling ZvT offers lots of money for excessive spines w/o setting the Zerg back much in case Terran wants to incorporate a LOT of drop play.
Now I know that your all thinking about infestors and fungal growth. But the thing is when zergs go fast infestors, drops only do that much more damage. He will be forced to go muta or die because you have so many marines and medivacs coming out that infestors aren't mobile enough to cover all his bases eventually starving him out because he will have to stay 2 base most of the game when you are comfortably expanding.
What if Zerg is playing mass upgraded sling/infestor?
I've played mass marine using this stratagy and I've found so long as I spread my OL and watch my mini-map I can intercept all drops with my spread out slings and still focus on the infestor with no deviation into mutalisks.
At that point it's mass 1/1 2/2 slings/infestor vs mass 1/1 marine/medivac.
I can see how this is perfectly viable vs mass slings, but I think you're not giving Zerg enough credit to nullify drops without mutas.
edit: Also, mass sling ZvT offers lots of money for excessive spines w/o setting the Zerg back much in case Terran wants to incorporate a LOT of drop play.
Watch the replays... he plays against Zergs who go mass ling-infestor. If you prefer, I can send you some of my own replays vs ling-infestor, because that build is AWFUL vs mass marine.
How do you spend your gas after you are at 3/3 and on 3-4 base? I find it impossible to spend, do you tech to some gas heavy unit? Or do you stop mining gas all together?
On October 24 2011 09:09 NoisyNinja wrote: How do you spend your gas after you are at 3/3 and on 3-4 base? I find it impossible to spend, do you tech to some gas heavy unit? Or do you stop mining gas all together?
You could add ravens Detect banelings mines, pdd and seeker missile are great vs mutas, turrets can create quick walls or harass mineral lines, etc
Good Work Muffins/vVvPastry. Ive been using this build in the diamond league and it has been working very well with a pretty good win ratio.
I was having massive troubles with zergs and how to stop their massive macro so I tried out this build and I'm having alot more success than what I was having before. At the double drop at 10-12 mins i try get another drop out while the first is going at another location to further pressure. It seems to be working very well as most zergs dont have much of an army at this point and find it very difficult to clean up 1 yet alone 2 drops in different locations.
Thankyou!
EDIT: Also been experimenting getting 1 early viking to clear out overlords in certain spawn positions. If they don't know it's coming the zergs are in big trouble normally
I come back after a week of testing : it works wonders!
Basically, there are five points I want to make :
- it is the same idea as the TvP mass marines : small group of marines perform very well (cost effectively) all along the game. With a minimum of micro, nothing really counters them, even the AoE dealers such as banelings or colossi.
- for the first drop, do a double prong attack with one medivacs for each attack. Afterwards, go for two attacks of two medivacs. But no more, remember, a "critical mass" of marines is counterproductive
- don't worry if your drop gets cleaned (as long as you don't lose your medivacs fully loaded) Drop again and again, this is particularly effective when targeting the third, because the hatchery will eventually fall (second or third drop usually)
- there are a few micro moves you need to do. In presence of ling + mutas + baneling, just spread your marines and let them die. In presence of lings+mutas (the first units that reach your marines when you do a drop), focus on the mutas! 4 zerglings = 140 pv and 100 minerals. 1 muta = 120 pv and 100/100 resource!. In presence of ling+banelings, put your marines back in the medivac and re-drop them on the banelings. Against lings, no micro needed =)
- around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you do reactors or make more barracks? Also, what do you do when you start to float gas because marines are mineral heavy, upgrades are gas heavy but only temporarily gas heavy?
As you stated, when you start to have a bit of gas, and not enough minerals, stop making barracks and put reactors =)
Also, as you said, for the gas, apart from the reactored starport,you can temporary dump gas in upgrades and reactors (remember that the building armor upgrade and the range upgrade in the engineering bay are very good), then, when you start floating 1.5k to 2k gas, it's usually the moment you to a tech switch to thors.
On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote: - around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta?
Typically if the game is still going at 20minutes I start floating 2000+ gas. What I usually do at that point is throw down 2-3 more starports upgrade corvid reactor and HSM and start pumping out ravens. HSM spam can deal nicely with infestor broodlord which is the most problematic thing to deal with since the infestors are usually sitting under the ravens and if they waste all their energy spamming ravnes with fungals then they risk not having enough to deal with the mass marines.
Typically though when I get to this point in the game (20minutes) I am already quite a bit ahead.
I usually only take 3 geysers, maybe 4, and just focus on minerals at every base past the natural. By 20 minutes infantry ups should be done or almost done so all gas can go into medivacs and ghosts. Ghosts seem pretty important in my experience, fast infestors and ultras can make pure marines kinda tough but snipe is insane.
I've been having insane success with mass marines on ladder. Most zergs are pretty upset and bm about it though
On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote: - around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta?
Erm, I keep on producing lots of marines, but usually, I cant produce anymore on all my barracks because 4 factories dump 1200 minerals (4*300) for each cycle. When I say "I switch to thor", I mean that thors have higher priority now.
Pure thors lose hard to ling/bling/muta (especially because the Z will only engage with zerglings), but the marine support just gives an incredible composition advantage.
So, in clear, I keep on dropping while I build the factories, and thus losing marines and medivacs to do damage and freeing supply. With a bit of luck, you can do 2 rounds of thors unnoticed. Usually, around the beginning/middle of the second round of thors, the Z must be wondering what you're doing.
Then you push without thinking, straight to the third/fourth/fifth, with the marines ready to stim and run behind the thors when banelings are on sight. Usually, it ends the game. (Remember that normally, you are pushing allll the way on his creep, I usually can't deal with creep tumors during the first 20 minutes, so watch out!)
Hi guys, I still use this build for my TvZ and I love it, it's simple, fun and effective (well so far for me at Silver!)
I was just wondering if any of you guys have tried opening fast cloak banshee and then transferring into this if they don't GG from the first 2 banshees (no spores up in time). I feel like this would help with bling bust and fast roaches. I haven't really tried this out yet but I know some people consider fast cloak banshee to be a bit all-in. idk.
^What does fast cloak banshee have to do anything with this build o_o Bling bust and fast roaches can both be countered by just scouting it and reacting properly (bunkers)
An important thing I have noticed with this build is that you have to constantly trade with zerg early-game (marines for lings) so zerg can't get a big drone count (constant aggression!) and your gas goes into fast 3/3 upgrades, because marines tear through zerglings (then banelings) with fast upgrades. Dropping is really nice though ^.^
On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote: - around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta?
not really. a good zerg player will magicbox your thors when they're out of position, and then baneling the crap out of your marines
On January 09 2012 07:49 Marathi wrote: Hi guys, I still use this build for my TvZ and I love it, it's simple, fun and effective (well so far for me at Silver!)
I was just wondering if any of you guys have tried opening fast cloak banshee and then transferring into this if they don't GG from the first 2 banshees (no spores up in time). I feel like this would help with bling bust and fast roaches. I haven't really tried this out yet but I know some people consider fast cloak banshee to be a bit all-in. idk.
uhhh yeah? lol. cloaked banshees are super common. transitioning into mass marine/medivac is also super common. this doesn't help out against roach and bling busts lol, banshees can't kill roaches fast enough, and banelings in your base are pretty hard to deal with.
On November 14 2011 01:33 fezvez wrote: - around the 15th-20th minute, if the game is not over, it's time to make a tech switch : thors! Basically, they counter really hard the ling/baneling/mutas composition that the zerg has. Usually, I build at the same time 3 factories (for a total of 4) and armory (for a total of 2). It's a bit counterproductive as you used your armory for the +1 air armor, but hardcounter still remains hardcounter.
Do you mean sticking with mass marine but mixing some thors in, or switching entirely to thors? Do thors really 'hard counter' ling-bling-muta?
not really. a good zerg player will magicbox your thors when they're out of position, and then baneling the crap out of your marines
Magic box makes marines that much better vs mutas.
Holy crap dude, work on your marine splits! I'm gonna be using this style because it fits my playstyle really well, constant aggression and micro makes the build more effective. I just finished watching the game on shakuras plateau vs sox, and the game would have been over like 10 minutes earlier if your marine splitting was decent. I really like this style as my marine splits are pretty good, and this style makes full use of that.
Only marines has been my go-to for a long time in TvZ. I just haven't put the work in to get my tank macro good - though the actual micro during a push seems fairly straightforward. Multiple medivac drops are just tons of fun. The strategy does tend to slow and get more difficult when either mutas start shutting down your drops, or infestors start shutting down your pushes.
This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling.
On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote: This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling.
Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast.
On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote: This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling.
Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast.
No, he doesn't even need to add Ultras.
3/3 Crackling/Infestor will beat 3/3 Marine/Medivac. And if you add maurauders, he simply won't make Ultras and maurauders eat into your supply.
Mutas are key just to prevent the terran picking up again every time. Banelings require some really good micro vs. drops, or the terran will just drop marines into your stack of banelings while you aren't looking. Even I can do this, and I've got APM < 100.
On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote: This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling.
Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast.
So you're basically saying that no, infestor is not the counter to mass marine, mutas are? That makes no sense. Make infestors, force you to get marauders THEN POSSIBLY get mutas.
On January 09 2012 17:33 Tobberoth wrote: This is definitely the easiest way to get to a high win rate vs zerg. Marines are OP as is, but when building nothing but, you can constantly pressure the zerg which breaks the zerg mechanic to drone when not under pressure. Microing well enough to make marine-bling trades cost-efficient is really easy since a bling needs to hit about 4-5 marines to be cost efficient, and it takes too long to get enough blings. The only real counter to it is infestors, which is really hard to tech to when constantly being attacked and dropped since you need to spend so much larva on ling/bling.
Infestors are a great way to lose to this. You need Muta/Ling/Bling. Trust me, I've been using this strat almost exclusively for months. Infestors only worked against me if the zerg turtles on three base with static D and quick ups and tech to quick hive to get Ultras before I can add Marauders. If he adds Marauders in time though, you still lose with that style. I've been adding Marauders to my composition if the Zerg goes for Infestor anyway, since Marauders need more fungal to kill and snipe Infestors, Ultras, and buildings really fast.
So you're basically saying that no, infestor is not the counter to mass marine, mutas are? That makes no sense. Make infestors, force you to get marauders THEN POSSIBLY get mutas.
I've tried going mass muta ling baneling, and it gets utterly destroyed. The problem with muta is because of the constant pressure you need to use your muta to help defend as its taking up larva / supply that would of otherwise been lings, which in the long run makes it almost impossible to keep growing your muta ball as it constantly keeps getting widdled down. I think they best way to defend this is to go 3rd macro hatch inside your base and focus on base defense with ling bane with fast upgrades till you get infestors. Once you get a few infestors 7+ then start transitioning into muta to help deal with marine balls as rauders get mixed in.
The biggest problem with going just ling bane infestor is it takes a stupid amount of FG's to kill the Medivac packs and if you can kill the medivac packs you will just utterly loose as they heal faster then FG can damage. This is where muta later on helps. Unless you get lucky with a few fg's early on
If anyone has a better way to deal with this, i'd love to know as i'm a zerg who has come across this a fair bit and haven't found a great away around it as of yet other then what I just posted
On January 10 2012 03:50 rustypipe wrote: I've tried going mass muta ling baneling, and it gets utterly destroyed. The problem with muta is because of the constant pressure you need to use your muta to help defend as its taking up larva / supply that would of otherwise been lings, which in the long run makes it almost impossible to keep growing your muta ball as it constantly keeps getting widdled down. I think they best way to defend this is to go 3rd macro hatch inside your base and focus on base defense with ling bane with fast upgrades till you get infestors. Once you get a few infestors 7+ then start transitioning into muta to help deal with marine balls as rauders get mixed in.
The biggest problem with going just ling bane infestor is it takes a stupid amount of FG's to kill the Medivac packs and if you can kill the medivac packs you will just utterly loose as they heal faster then FG can damage. This is where muta later on helps. Unless you get lucky with a few fg's early on
If anyone has a better way to deal with this, i'd love to know as i'm a zerg who has come across this a fair bit and haven't found a great away around it as of yet other then what I just posted
This. Then again, I was the terran on the other side of a couple of these games (hey rusty!) so my opinion might be redundant .
You want a few mutas to intercept drops/make sure his medivacs die with mass muta you just counter yourself, good static defense in at least one base because its hard to be everywhere at once, good upgrades on your lings and then get a decent amount of infestors and kill. Just a few banelings early.
still loving this build but what could I have done better in this game to have won. I felt like I was shitting all over him then he jus went mass bling and took out like loads of my CCs with them and SCVs I already thought I had the game won but he managed to hang in there and get his macro back on track whilst I was fucked.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft2units.org/wp-content/uploads/marine.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/5/57/MedivacDropship_SC2_DevRend2.jpg)
), ~16 minutes for your 3/3. Usually see a large window for constant aggression between 11 and 17 minutes.
