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Histers PvT Immortal style. - Page 13

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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NineteenSC2
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada117 Posts
September 16 2011 23:55 GMT
#241
If you scout a ghost academy with your observer, do you think it would be wise to put down a stargate and get two pheonixes to counter the ghosts, or would that delay the push too much?
S2 & S3 Grandmaster Protoss. Justin.tv/nineteensc2 for my new stream
xdividebyzerox
Profile Joined August 2011
34 Posts
September 17 2011 00:58 GMT
#242
that would delay it by alot and there is a big chance your pheonix would'nt do anything at all
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
September 17 2011 02:58 GMT
#243
On September 17 2011 05:06 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 09:27 Keilah wrote:
How has nobody mentioned that if you drop the robo right after the stalker you can hit much sooner? On my second attempt I was attacking the terran units at 8:50 with +1 armor, 4 immortals, 4 sentries, 2 zealots, 1 stalker, with 2 extra gates morphing into warpgate mode, and 2 more gates a few seconds behind.

The crucial elements here are +1 armor, GS, and immortals, right? Can always smash thru some bunkers and back off to wait for a few warpins if that's what makes you happy but with people saying they get stim and a ghost around 9:00, seems crucial to hit hard right before that happens.


Can u supply a replay please? I def. feel that this build needs to be refined.


Not giving a replay yet cuz it isn't refined to my satisfaction, but here is what i have:
(plz note that this is assuming the terran made a gas, which means he can't be rine/scv allining, which means you don't need the early forge for a cannon)

-do as Hister says up to the point where you build a stalker

-after stalker comes a robo ASAP

-after robo is pylon + sentry (i forget which is first)... this will force a bit of a probe cut when you are at 24/26, but if you make another probe you delay your sentry which i'm pretty sure can get you killed

-build nonstop immortals once the robo is done, don't make an observer unless you feel you really need to, but that will slow your push by ~30s which is probably a big deal

-build a forge after you start your first immortal and start +1 armor ASAP, the upgrade should finish around 8:35 with no chronoboost

-build no more than 26 probes total, i'm not sure if 25 or 26 is optimal but don't go past that. I suppose if you went with an observer you could go to 27 probes since your push is delayed meaning that extra probe has time to pay for itself

-if your build is still sloppy and you have to cut something, cut gateway unit production - remember that it is crucial to have 4 immortals with +1 armor 2-shotting his bunkers ASAP, having +-1 gateway unit is meh

-once your third immortal is out, start moving across the map so you can lay down a proxy pylon in time, and rally the 4th immortal to the front.

-once your immortal #4 is started (exact same time you start moving out), start making your extra gates, and yes you do want 5 of them. I believe you can squeak in gate #2 much earlier but that shouldn't be a huge deal. The important thing is that you warp in a round of units around the time immortal #4 reaches the enemy base.

-don't make immortal #5, there is zero chance it will arrive in time to contribute and you need that money for your gateways/units.

-You should have energy for 10 chronoboosts by 8:00 (which is when immortal #4 pops out). I _think_ the correct way to boost is: 4 on probes, 1 on stalker, 4 on robo, 1 on ??? (this one i'm uncertain of, possibly use it on the forge or the robo, maybe save it to chrono your gates during the battle). I notice that if I chronoboost immortal #1 I have a bit of money problems when it's time for immortal #2, so I recommend saving the chronoboost energy for a bit, then chronoing all out once immortal #2 starts.




The build as I have it is still a tiny bit sloppy, there are moments where i'm not sure to build a zealot or a sentry, i had to cut a few seconds of gateway build time, etc etc but i'll get that sorted.

This is important: I don't play much 1v1 anymore! I mostly just theorycraft and make good builds and play team games. So I don't know when to scout, how to adapt, etc etc. For example, maybe you really do need a cannon to be safe vs 2rax. Maybe you just have to get an observer, or at least a cannon in your probes (which btw you can afford after immortal #2 starts, which should be in time for a cloaked banshee). Maybe you need to chrono immortal #1 to be safe vs rushes.

I don't really know. Better players than me can tell you how to scout/react/be safe.


Oh and one last thing: If you make only 4gates and warp in only zlots/sentries, you can afford a nexus around the time you attack, but i don't know if that's really prudent... I mean, if you still haven't expanded at 8:30 you'd better effing kill him or lose, right? Idunno, idunno.
Noheroes
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada19 Posts
September 17 2011 03:00 GMT
#244
Diamond league. Just got absolutely shit on by fast ghost build. This build is okay vs a terran who is greedy or doesn't get ghosts. Other than that, demolished by ghosts
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
September 17 2011 03:06 GMT
#245
Could also be decent to throw some chronos on +1 armor, make only 3 immortals, and hit around 8:00, again idunno.
LtLolburger
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand365 Posts
September 17 2011 03:23 GMT
#246
Perhaps after immortal #1 is finished, it would be wise to chrono out an observer to look for potential terran reactions? For example, if you scout a ghost academy you could forgo making extra gates, cut immortals, andmake a robo bay instead and expand if he has made a cc? Or one could use hallucination to avoid the stop to immortal production. I might test this out when i get a chance to play later.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane. -Philip K. Dick
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-17 04:06:57
September 17 2011 03:54 GMT
#247
seems to me like if he expands, you can kill him before he has cloak/EMP if and only if you build zero observers.

If he doesn't expand, it's probably prudent to build an observer to defend vs cloak or to scout ghosts, since a no-expo t is going to reach his target tech before you attack whether you make an obs or not.

So let's see...

expansion = nonstop immortals, go kill him pre-9:00

no expo = make an obs, then:
-1/1/1 allin = LOL and win
-cloakshee rush = cancel immortal for another obs, cannon ur probes, probably expand
-1 base ghost = 1 base colossus?
-rine/tank = LOL and win
-3rax = ???, but probably even-ish
-2rax pressure -> expo = easy defend, and then ???, probably just kill his expo at 9:30 with 4 immortals + gate units, may as well pylon+obs into his main while you're at it
-2port banshee = cannon(s), another obs, and either stargate or more gates + stalkers
-some sort of drop = defend, probably abort immortals, and do some combination of expand/blink/HT/colossus
-inbase CC = ???
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
September 17 2011 05:39 GMT
#248
For those having issues with ghosts you shouldn't be blindly doing this push w/o scouting, always make an obs initially from your robo so you can react accordingly:

vs 1-base ghost rush/push: if you scout the early ghost academy just switch over to colossi, spread your sentries at the top of the ramp and you generally can get out 1 colossi (w/o range) and should hold it easily.

vs 2-base: if they go fast ghost and then expand, just expand yourself and again switch to colossi when you scout the ghost academy. You shouldn't be behind because expo timing will match theirs. If they do an early expo then go for ghosts after that you have to decide if you think you can break them with a 1-base push or not depending on the timing of their ghosts.
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
September 17 2011 08:12 GMT
#249
did some more experimenting and this build has a glaring flaw:

T can just build nothing at all on the low ground, keep an eye out to see you coming, and float his expo + retreat his SCVs into his main when you push. Then he waits for some medivacs/ghosts/upgrades, ferries down, and kills you. You may have taken away his expo but he still was mining for a long time and still has all those SCVs + another CC.

This leads me to believe that we either find a way to make it work with MAX 3 immortals (to hit sooner, giving less benefit from his expansion), or we accept that this isn't viable.
sashamunguia
Profile Joined February 2011
Mexico423 Posts
September 17 2011 08:14 GMT
#250
i saw this build repetitively aplied against Gositerran, sixjaxMajor... winning only once, but anyways I must say It was very impressive indeed...
"only the need for meaning changes how you feel about what you see" "he who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life" "being a Rebel is as stupid as to be completely Obedient"
Autarch
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia27 Posts
September 17 2011 11:00 GMT
#251
This build is great if you are beneath high masters. Terrans are vastly confused by it and get angry. I've haad a ~30% win rate v terran forever (60% v Z and P) and today I've been rolling through every terran I played. The only time it was even close was when we spawned cross positions on Typhon and he went for a base race when I moved out. I never thought immortals could be this fucking good.
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
September 17 2011 11:29 GMT
#252
On September 11 2011 19:45 Xequecal wrote:
Unfortunately, delaying your stalker as long as you do means a single reaper will just kill you.

ummmmmmmmmm what?
If anything this stalker is early, what are you talking about?

but all in all, this is a great build, very fresh and inspirational, look forward to trying it
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
September 17 2011 11:32 GMT
#253
Mind Blown... that was so awesome

Can't wait to try that after the patch, take that 1/1/1!
chestnutcc
Profile Joined July 2011
India429 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-17 12:34:44
September 17 2011 12:21 GMT
#254
Disclaimer: Just an amateur opinion.

My two cents: One possible way to resolve the immortal/ observer dilemma could be this: assimilator first, then gateway followed up by the second assimilator and core; these are to be arranged in a sim city. Chrono the nexus four times like Keilah says, varying according to what scouting tells you. Scout after the gateway. Saturate both assimilators and pull probes off one once you have 300 gas. Research hallucination first, followed by warpgate.

Chrono out two sentries. Put probes back on gas, put down your forge. The idea is that the simcity dulls the effect a reaper has, while the sentry can take some pot shots at it (though the sentry will lose in a straight up fight). If a reaper is spotted, you could cancel the second sentry and chrono the stalker out*. Keep your scouting probe alive.

Provided things are proceeding without too much ado, chrono out a stalker, research +1 armor, plant second gateway. Once hallucination is done the sentry should have enough energy for a phoenix by around the 6 minute mark. Scout unhindered and react accordingly.

To follow hister, keep producing primarily sentries (a zealot or two is okay, but I think they are more useful when warped in right before or during the push, allowing for faster warpgate cooldown and aggression). I think the early forge+ 2 sentries is sufficient to plant one or two cannons to hold an early marine scv all in, not sure. Robo goes up after this, chrono out immortals (you should chrono out only sentries, the frequency of which I suppose will be affected by scouting information). Warpgates should be done about the same time (plant your desired number of warpgates when you can).

I would love to experiment with this with anyone; I'm a gold toss.

* I don't know how one would react to nitro reaper rushes; maybe a bunker gives you room to drop the forge a bit later for an earlier gate, and I think the phoenix should spot the reapers in time.

Possible reactions:

The phoenix can search v efficiently for proxy stargates. If you see tech labbed stargates, cut immortals and go stalkers (into blink maybe, exploiting long banshee build time). Researching tech lab, chrono out observers first.

Ghost academy: Cut immortals, go for a robo bay and chrono out rangeless colossus. Warp prism for sentries might be a good idea. Look to expo. You should know most of this in th 6-8 min gap, so the expo can be set up by forgoing the +3 extra gates you need for hister's push, going for a cannon (you have the sentries).
Uni1987
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands642 Posts
September 17 2011 13:05 GMT
#255
Haha, i just did this versus protoss and it worked. He four gated me but it failed because of the cannon and sentries. A few minutes later i slammed him with an upgraded army :D
.............
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
September 17 2011 13:53 GMT
#256
http://drop.sc/35698

http://drop.sc/35699

here are a couple fairly refined versions that hit around 8:45-50 with 4 immortals, +1 armor, some gateway units and either 5 gates or 3 gates with a freshly planted nexus

Obv the 5gate version has more power in a sustained fight but the initial punch is very close to the same and I think by making a nexus you give yourself a fighting chance if the terran retreats up his ramp to the high ground. Use whichever u please.

Next up is a faster-hitting 3-immortal version, probably with just 3 gates but i'm not sure.
Aliasisthis
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia6 Posts
September 17 2011 23:43 GMT
#257
Nice build, I like the consistency of it. It just highlights that the game is in fact balanced; there's always a way to counter a build that's perceived as imbalanced.
snowroller1
Profile Joined February 2011
99 Posts
September 18 2011 01:05 GMT
#258
im really getting sick of people adding all in stragetys to this forum, i mean anyone can do a random bo to all in and win with it, dont have to put every single strat on here

User was temp banned for this post.
hysterial
Profile Joined April 2011
United States2044 Posts
September 18 2011 02:36 GMT
#259
On September 18 2011 10:05 snowroller1 wrote:
im really getting sick of people adding all in stragetys to this forum, i mean anyone can do a random bo to all in and win with it, dont have to put every single strat on here


All-ins are part of the game, and are considered strategy. Why wouldn't people want to see every strat?

Without all-ins you would get long-boring macro games with corners cut all the time, you need these builds to stop players from being greedy and force them to scout.
Stipulation
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States587 Posts
September 18 2011 03:39 GMT
#260
More Hister <3
Looking forward to watching the reps.
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