Update Thanks for feedback and thoughts on this build I've been messing around with a lot of different versions. My immortal style is less than 3 weeks old but has made a lot of progress I can tell a lot of you are using it on the ladder as well people now know what I'm doing. This new style I feel is better overall you can scout everything and decide what to do while being safe from all forms of terran all-ins
9 pylon 11 1st chrono 13 2nd chrono 13 gateway 15 chrono 16 pylon near your ramp so that you can cannon if need be & scout with this probe 17 build double gas with the same probe will allow you to single file every probe into gas giving you extra minerals. 18 chrono and build a cyber 21 build a stalker chorno it add a sentry 27 robo
This is were I changed the build get a observer 1st chrono it out and add 2 gateways then add a forge. This style you will be able to see what hes doing and respond to anything compared to a BO loss to something like a fake FE 1-1-1.
I'm Hister.526 NA masters this build was originally started to blindly counter 1-1-1. Then TLO stomped all over me and I realized the old style was to weak. So I changed up the composition and build order with great success this is a insanely powerful all-in.
Why use it:
This style works great vs 1-1-1, FE and all one base terrans with the exception of a terran who leaves his second oc in his main until he has a huge mmm ball.
Basic Build Order
9 pylon 11 1st chrono 13 2nd chrono 13 gateway 15 chrono 16 pylon near your ramp so that you can place a cannon that is ranged in middle of the ramp. 17 build double gas with the same probe will allow you to single file every probe into gas giving you extra minerals. 18 chrono and build a cyber 20 forge 21 build a stalker chorno it add a sentry 24 3rd pylon 27 robo
If I scout mm coming I'll get a cannon up and keep an eye out for scv rine all-ins this can stop them but you have to be on the map to see them coming.
There is no one set way to build up the best unit composition it will tend to totally depend on what your terran opponent getting. You will however want to get out at least 5 immortals and 1 observer if you cant see what hes doing.
You want to end up with 5 gateways 1 robo with +1 armor for the timing attack to be dominate around 80 food vs a FE.
If you're vs a 1-1-1 drop 2 cannons around your mineral line so you can keep your forces in the middle slowing down his push.
If he sits on one base you'll have to expo this build transition's into the late game with little effort required can chose to go +2 armor chargelot with archcons or colossus.
If you built a observer but he just went mm Fe anyway don't let it go to waste put a pylon by his cliff and when you attack warp a zealot or 2 into his main mineral line.
Can't watch replays atm, so my question is, when do you expand? Your post mentions going up to 5 gateways, which I'm assuming means there's an expand somewhere in the mix, didn't notice it in the text though.
On September 11 2011 08:47 EtherealDeath wrote: Can't watch replays atm, so my question is, when do you expand? Your post mentions going up to 5 gateways, which I'm assuming means there's an expand somewhere in the mix, didn't notice it in the text though.
On September 11 2011 08:47 EtherealDeath wrote: Can't watch replays atm, so my question is, when do you expand? Your post mentions going up to 5 gateways, which I'm assuming means there's an expand somewhere in the mix, didn't notice it in the text though.
It is an all-in as mentioned in the OP. And apparently it can defeat Fnaticrain who is #1 GM on the US server. I love the chat in that game. You tell him you're going to all in if he expands, so he expands and you all-in and win. I also love the fact the initial attack force is like 4 Immortals and 5 Sentries, not a single Zealot or Stalker moving down the map.
I also really enjoyed the game vs Picnic, his SCV-Marine all-in comes up and sees a Cannon and Sentry and backs off. Then he tries a bunker contain while you're building mass Immortals. Talk about being hard countered.
Hister, your builds are among the best I've seen, amazing work man. Thank you.
On September 11 2011 08:47 EtherealDeath wrote: Can't watch replays atm, so my question is, when do you expand? Your post mentions going up to 5 gateways, which I'm assuming means there's an expand somewhere in the mix, didn't notice it in the text though.
It is an all-in as mentioned in the OP. And apparently it can defeat Fnaticrain who is #1 GM on the US server. I love the chat in that game. You tell him you're going to all in if he expands, so he expands and you all-in and win. I also love the fact the initial attack force is like 4 Immortals and 5 Sentries, not a single Zealot or Stalker moving down the map.
I also really enjoyed the game vs Picnic, his SCV-Marine all-in comes up and sees a Cannon and Sentry and backs off. Then he tries a bunker contain while you're building mass Immortals. Talk about being hard countered.
Hister, your builds are among the best I've seen, amazing work man. Thank you.
wtf, that was really rain playing? I thought it was a joke!!
It is well known that Bczofupros is fnaticRain. Obvious smurf account, I don't think a non-pro player could ever hold #1 GM of NA, EU or KR. Maybe on SEA since it is such a small server.
Either way, look at his account on NA server (just go to the Grandmaster ladder, he is currently #1), and go to his match history. Search for 1vs1, and just 8 hours ago he lost to Hister on Xel Naga. His record is 149-24 too.
You start your WG + armor research at odd times (like after robo fac finishes, or when immortal is half way done), is this intentional? Do you really need that 50/50 and 100/100 to prioritize the robo fac? I'm actually more concerned of the WG research, thanks :D
On September 11 2011 13:50 BronzeKnee wrote: It is well known that Bczofupros is fnaticRain. Obvious smurf account, I don't think a non-pro player could ever hold #1 GM of NA, EU or KR. Maybe on SEA since it is such a small server.
Either way, look at his account on NA server (just go to the Grandmaster ladder, he is currently #1), and go to his match history. Search for 1vs1, and just 8 hours ago he lost to Hister on Xel Naga. His record is 149-24 too.
haaaa ok i see now. Before i thought that he was just kidding and pulled out a name randomly. But it all makes sense now.
...This build looks insane. Will definitely try this out!! Immortals are hardly ever used in PvT early on, my jaw dropped as ~4 immortals and a bunch of sentries with a handful of zealots slice through almost equal food of mm + bunkers....
The key is that Immortals are insanely good against bio. And thats awesome. Finally terrans will start to risk alot when fast expanding and bunkering around. Great build!
Wow. I'm a long time lurker of this site and I made an account just to reply to this thread. That's one of the nastiest builds I've seen in a long time. Great job, time for me to start laddering.
Why do we drop 2 cannons around our mineral line? is this to stop banshee harass? Wouldn't it be more useful to drop them near the other cannon or even in the middle of the base next to the gateways and robo?
P.s. Totally tried this build just a little while ago vrs a fe terran. Wrecked him. Thanks ^ ^
Gah, this looks really hard to defend against... Immortals against your marauders and bunkers, +1 armor zealots + a lot of guardian shield against your marines :S Do you have any replays where the Terran player manages to defend?
Even if he did why would he want to share it with terran players :-D kekeke
Also, I have used this against every terran matchup I have had in the last 8 games I am undefeated, I have only had to transition into middle/lategame twice and than I kind of just played on my own after that.
I am only a gold player, so I wouldn't be the best to judge this but it seems to have totally caught the terran players I played against off guard, and the ones that tried to 1/1/1 well... LOL
EDIT : Do you think this is viable against zergies?
I think this would be nice against zerg aswell, with +1 attack instead of armor and more zealot heavier comp with some sentries and immortals would rip a part spine crawlers, zerglings and roaches
No it won't work against zerg as mass speedling will crush it. You have a limited number of forcefields, a good zerg will make you use them up quickly as you advance, and immortals way overkill lings so you don't do damage fast enough.
But this build looks huuuuuuuuge against T. In fact, the only thing I could see stopping it is 2 port banshee.
-.- Don't understand how people can hate 1-1-1 so much then turn around and use this which is basically an even more retard friendly build that just encourages 1 base all in play similar to how 1-1-1 does seems hypocritical to me.
As for counters I suppose terrans will just not take their nat if they decide to get an early cc and go ghost or maybe 2 port banshee.
On September 11 2011 07:04 RobCorso wrote: What do you do if he reactors his rax and pumps marines+ banshees? Great build order, can't wait to try it.
The terran needs siege tanks with guardian shield and +1 armor stalkers have 4 hp armor makes them very effective vs the banshees. As stated you will have to be in the middle of the map fighting him especially if he has a raven need to force pdd and run.
interesting. I remember dying to this 2 patches ago in taiwan... Raged so hard, watched replay - "the fuck is 5 gate forge robo" quit sc2 for a day -_-
On September 11 2011 17:48 Elden wrote: Why do we drop 2 cannons around our mineral line? is this to stop banshee harass? Wouldn't it be more useful to drop them near the other cannon or even in the middle of the base next to the gateways and robo?
P.s. Totally tried this build just a little while ago vrs a fe terran. Wrecked him. Thanks ^ ^
V S 1-1-1 if the terran goes heavy banshee with a raven and gains position under your ramp with a few siege tanks its very hard to hold you need to meet him 1/2 way to force pdd. Also terrans tend to drop all kinds of stuff and 1 banshee can GG a game don't forget that as well.
so essentially a fast ghost will be able to deal with this then? not very common tho Imma show this to my toss friend. He refuses to believe that immortal balls are fucking strong against t bio early on and that toss allins are weak.
I'd be really happy, like my tummy if you'd include A warp prism in the push - not only you can do hot pickups, but also you can so some crazy warp in shenanigans, block pathing and be even more ahead! :D
On September 11 2011 22:40 Nibbler89 wrote: -.- Don't understand how people can hate 1-1-1 so much then turn around and use this which is basically an even more retard friendly build that just encourages 1 base all in play similar to how 1-1-1 does seems hypocritical to me. I don't doubt that a diamond protoss that learns this build will be able to beat GM terrans that decide to take their natural, especially after the patch.
As for counters I suppose terrans will just not take their nat if they decide to get an early cc and go ghost or maybe 2 port banshee.
I don't know if this particular build is going to catch on so crazily that any terran would go for ghost that early, I mean it seems kind of illogical for any type of standard play but I suppose it is possible considering the meta game keeps changing in this game for all the races.
@Nibbler89
You cannot fault people for trying to win ladder games, sure personally I hate the fact that a lot of people pick up on these gimmicky builds and than just exploit the shit out of them but that is just the nature of this game and the community, I am in gold and I don't know about other people in gold but I certanily am not sitting down and trying to be innovative and creating my own builds, i just watch pros and upper masters/gm players and mirror what I see and put my own spin on it when I see fit while I try to master my mechanics and different parts of the game.
This is just the evolution of the game though, 1-1-1 seemed OP and IMBA to some people I am assuming and for a lot it was certainly a loss until someone like Hipster sheds some light on the situation now the tables are reversed and its time for Terran to adapt.
I guess maybe I am kind of numb to this "feeling" of 1 base all ins because I play Protoss and my gold ladder is littered with them so 3 out of the 5 hours I am playing a day I am just stuck 4 gating and defending one etc..
Honestly it is probably the one thing I absolutely despise about this game how the community is like brain washed and so stubborn that they just keep bear clawing each other with the same tactics until someone higher up finds a innovative way to change the tide of battle.
I am rambling but anyways this build is solid as of now against Terran I am offically 13-0.
I have tried this 2 times against terrans now, both from master and im diamond 1. And i have lost both games. First was against some ghost marine marauder and second was against 5 sieges and mass marine (and he also expanded).
Today I won against a MM Ghost push with Stim, maybe because I had enough zealots to tank and so MM couldn't reach my Immortals. But I'm having trouble with defending the 111, mainly because of my execution I think (Did this build only around 5 times).
On September 11 2011 22:40 Nibbler89 wrote: -.- Don't understand how people can hate 1-1-1 so much then turn around and use this which is basically an even more retard friendly build that just encourages 1 base all in play similar to how 1-1-1 does seems hypocritical to me. I don't doubt that a diamond protoss that learns this build will be able to beat GM terrans that decide to take their natural, especially after the patch.
As for counters I suppose terrans will just not take their nat if they decide to get an early cc and go ghost or maybe 2 port banshee.
I have a question for you. How many terran actually play me strait on the ladder? if you answered "only on taldarim altar because they allin me on very other maps" then you are correct!!!! For the number of times I got allined by a terran, i will be GLAD to allin every other terran I meet on the ladder, because, apparently they dont want to play past 10 minutes with me, and like pushes that take 10 times the skill to hold than to do. You dont want to play a macro game with me? fine, i shall oblige. I will even be glad to throw the offensive gg in the end.
On September 12 2011 00:29 Gazape wrote: I have tried this 2 times against terrans now, both from master and im diamond 1. And i have lost both games. First was against some ghost marine marauder and second was against 5 sieges and mass marine (and he also expanded).
I'm guessing your timings and execution are pretty off. Maybe watch one of the OPs replays, then yours, and see the differences. Alternatively, post a replay and we could help.
At first glance, this build sounds pretty bad. 5gates and 1robo on one base.. isn't that too much production even for an all in? Bur after sifting through the comments and seeing the massive positive feedback, I can't wait to get to the replays (I have no internet atm, so I can't watch). It sounds pretty devastating.
Kudos sir, can't wait. Between this and the PvZ FFE into +1 Warp Prism drops, I might main Toss for a little bit! xD
yeah this is super duper easy to beat, if u go imortal heavy,,, a person going the new 1-1-1 style, would either throw down a couple more barracks and or/ an extra port massing out banshees... Ive played a guy last night who did this exact style. I scanned and noticed super early immortals, he even skipped out on a obs... to his mistake I stopped skipped out on tank production. Threw down an extra Port. got myself my raven for PDD, pushed with about 6-7 banshees and a crap ton of marines. he rage quit and called me a map hacker lol this was masters btw.
Can you post a replay of you doing this whilst taking an expansion? All the replays show the one base all-in. If it was intended as an all-in you made way too many probes (30+), and 5 gates just seems like way too much, considering you are pumping immortals as well. Feels like if this was to be a definate all-in, then it can be refined a lot more.
This looks like a great build to have ready for 1.4.
I'll probably adapt this build to work in warp prisms as well (use the immortals for immo drops to kill supply depots, not to mention the ability to micro them vs marauders and pick them up before they take damage and between attacks, etc)
I dont like this build at all. Dont get me wrong, I support innovations and love immortals but imho this build has the same 1dimensional foundation as the 1/1/1 It gets ultra-efficient upgrades (+1 Armor / Siege Mode) and masses powerunits (Immortals / Siege Tanks / Banshees) on one base for 10+ minutes and waites for a moment to strike where the opponent interrupts to do the same while relying on some cute defense (FF for P, Bunkers for T). Terrans will die horrible to it for a while, then figure out triggers, timings and compositions against it and then it will disappear as any other 1 Base Build. Like others said, MMG if you opened Multi-Rax or Banshees (+BFH?) if you already commited to the Factory seems the way to go against. If you could incorperate a solid Transition into an Expansion I would be very interested aswell.
Scrubby bronze player here who probably can't do anything near this build even though you call it a scrubby allin but I'm posting to say I LOVED those replays. For some reason they were absolutely hilarious. Especially the cannon and the "go home son"!
But... what about a 1/1/1 with banshees? Can the amount of sentries you get hold banshees, since they're essentially the only antiair you get?
I have had some succeeds with this, only lost one game for 1-1-1 all in and that was cuz terran made wall off bunkers and placed tanks behind it so I could reach tanks with my immortals straight away.
The main reason I think this build is fantastic is its a foundation. All strong openers evolve from all-ins. You just have to tweak it. The next natural step is find an evolution of this build that takes a natural. Curious to see where this goes
On one level i'm glad you provided them. On another one, i am doubting the relevance of these replays as you knew EXACTLY what he was doing. How he was going to do it and when it was going to come to your base as i figure these are laddergames(blue & red color)
But still, it is a way to beat it and the proper response.
with the immortals becomming so popular i see a return of 2 port banshees coming up. (second port proxied so they think its a 1/1/1). And with the early ghosts, i used immortals heavily some time ago. If you got their marauders down before they got your immortals down there is no problem. End the shields aren't really important against bio. It was more the range advantage on the marauders (shields were down when the immortal was in marauder range and you could use marines as a wall simply) mini amounts of Ghosts were a problem if your army was clumped up though x3 and they hit all your sentrys with (was pre emp super nerf x3) But if you have that guardian shield up marines are no problem. They do no damage to immortals. But ghosts do make it easier (don't have to snipe shields with the marines and the marauders work on the hull while marines fight the rest of the army)
Anyway seeing a early forge with me playing bio i go +1 attack or raven banshee to snipe the sentrys pre battle. Now the stargate for phoenix is missing for mule/wallin/banshee/raven sniping and i might encounter my old pvt builds . No need for forcefields if you can lift the opponent to prevent kiting
On September 12 2011 04:26 Cyro wrote: Lol, and nobody took me seriously when i talked about using immortals as the core of a PvT army a few weeks back... Nice build, thanks a ton
To be fair, there's a big difference between Immortals being the core of a PvT army and Immortals being the core of an all-in designed to hit a timing.
Amazing build. Only lost 1 game so far on ladder and its because i let the 1/1/1 get sieged up before moving in, PDD's killed me. Otherwise solid. I'd love to try out some transitions out of this, make it a bit less all-in. But otherwise its good for me
why forge so early? I think you hold marine/scv allin by chronoing your gate, delaying robo, and pulling probes. you only need forge in time for (a) cloak banshee, and (b) +armor in time for the attack to hit. for either of these you only need to put down the forge at ~6m (forge finishes at 6:45, unchronoed +1 would finish at 8:25 which is in time to defend 111). you can forge after 2-3 gates + robo and still have all this work out.
the other thing is, I don't know why you build 30 probes? I'd stop at 24 or 26 or something if you're going for this kind of timing
On September 12 2011 05:38 palanq wrote: why forge so early? I think you hold marine/scv allin by chronoing your gate, delaying robo, and pulling probes. you only need forge in time for (a) cloak banshee, and (b) +armor in time for the attack to hit. for either of these you only need to put down the forge at ~6m (forge finishes at 6:45, unchronoed +1 would finish at 8:25 which is in time to defend 111). you can forge after 2-3 gates + robo and still have all this work out.
the other thing is, I don't know why you build 30 probes? I'd stop at 24 or 26 or something if you're going for this kind of timing
1. without cannon you can't stop marine scv all in or 2rax all in with a single gate.
2. need 30 probes to support constant immortal + 4-5 gateway production. 6 are dedicated to gas
Just tried this build for the first time, executed it pretty badly but still won (Masters). The T did 3 racks expand, I had 4 immortals upon attacking and his 2 ghosts EMPed my whole army. Still won the battle then contained him and eventually pushed up his ramp for an easy win.
On September 12 2011 05:38 palanq wrote: why forge so early? I think you hold marine/scv allin by chronoing your gate, delaying robo, and pulling probes. you only need forge in time for (a) cloak banshee, and (b) +armor in time for the attack to hit. for either of these you only need to put down the forge at ~6m (forge finishes at 6:45, unchronoed +1 would finish at 8:25 which is in time to defend 111). you can forge after 2-3 gates + robo and still have all this work out.
the other thing is, I don't know why you build 30 probes? I'd stop at 24 or 26 or something if you're going for this kind of timing
1. without cannon you can't stop marine scv all in or 2rax all in with a single gate.
2. need 30 probes to support constant immortal + 4-5 gateway production. 6 are dedicated to gas
my point was that you can hold without cannon if you deviate appropriately without blindly putting down the forge
as for cutting probes earlier you can hit a stronger timing this way with almost as many units.
you can't even support 5 gates + immortal + pylons for supply off 30 probes, the extra gates are only for proxy warpin after you stop immortals
On September 12 2011 04:13 prOpSaiton wrote: On one level i'm glad you provided them. On another one, i am doubting the relevance of these replays as you knew EXACTLY what he was doing. How he was going to do it and when it was going to come to your base as i figure these are laddergames(blue & red color)
But still, it is a way to beat it and the proper response.
that's true, but this build is easily scoutable when you realize protoss hasn't taken an expansion at the 9 minute mark and when they get a forge extremely fast. i actually struggled a lot vs this build when i tried to hold it with conventional mm + bunkers (i think i lost every game) so i'm just trying to show my fellow terrans a good way to counter it ^^
I know this is a bit off topic, but I have a question for Hister: did you name yourself after the Hister in the Nostradomus predictions, who apparently stands for Hitler?
people are not getting how a 2 port, raven, banshees (cloakshee if u must), and marines crush this build. the more immortals u make the more the 2 port will LOL
I just tryed this build out on ladder, it is really really Strong vs FEing Terran, holy shit. My push was delayed by a small supply block but it still just destroyed everything T had. Great Post, Great build.
On September 12 2011 07:50 kwan84 wrote: people are not getting how a 2 port, raven, banshees (cloakshee if u must), and marines crush this build. the more immortals u make the more the 2 port will LOL
but then, he could also scout your 2 ports and not push, instead get phoenix to LOL all over your army (assuming he gets an observer to scout you). I am glad you understand how to react to immortals tho
Cool build, I'm watching the replays now...but in your game against Rain, why did you delay getting warpgate for so long? I mean as much as I can tell you weren't gas starved or anything, but you put off warpgate for a long time... On the contrary you seem to build up a lot of gas around the time you make your first immortal.
if i see sentry play i go for the 3rax ghost where you get your ghost academy around 7 min, seen a lot of koreans do that strategy so I'm assuming it would be used in the GSL as well
On September 12 2011 11:34 dgwow wrote: if i see sentry play i go for the 3rax ghost where you get your ghost academy around 7 min, seen a lot of koreans do that strategy so I'm assuming it would be used in the GSL as well
Do you expand off this? Or go for the 9-10 minute push with marine marauder ghosts?
holy shit... i read the build and thought it was a joke, a piece of crap. immortals v marines in my mind = DEAD. I tried it. I've essentially a 10% win against terran but I lost only 1 today. I LOVE YOU. though yes some replays of 1-1-1 would be nice. I miraculously only fought fe's today and felt bad for cheesing such honorable players
I just ran this build against my master's Terran friend (with no forewarning). He 2 rax expanded. I had like 3 bunkers by the time I hit his front. Wasn't even close. I just crushed through everything.
I am officially super-duper impressed with this build. Great to have in the toolbox for a best of X series, I'm sure. Unfortunately it seems like Terran probably can stop it if he knows it's coming far enough in advance though.
This is an interesting All-In build but I want to see how it stacks up against the Terran 1-1-1. None of the replays provided show a classic 1-1-1 vs Hister's Immortal based all in. In fact, all of the replays basically show a Terran player gearing up to expand and not committed to the 1-1-1.
So while this is a good build for the tool-box, I want to see how it does against the 1-1-1.
Been trying this build on ladder. It does indeed do very well vs 1-1-1. One slight change I do is research +1 weapons right after +1 armor as this lets your immortals 3-shot tanks. You can usually chrono it out before the push hits. Then you can just 1-a your army while micro'ing 3 immortals and 1-shot'ing tanks. Then use a round of warp-ins on stalkers to clean up the banshees when the tanks are gone.
Pretty impressed with the build. Much easier stomping 1-1-1 with this build compared to 1-gate FE where it seems you need a lot of things to go you way to win. The biggest thing I like about the build is that it is essentially 1-gate robo so even if the terran player is doing something else like a marine ghost push or whatever you can adjust accordingly.
On September 12 2011 14:46 Skyro wrote: Been trying this build on ladder. It does indeed do very well vs 1-1-1. One slight change I do is research +1 weapons right after +1 armor as this lets your immortals 3-shot tanks. You can usually chrono it out before the push hits. Then you can just 1-a your army while micro'ing 3 immortals and 1-shot'ing tanks. Then use a round of warp-ins on stalkers to clean up the banshees when the tanks are gone.
Pretty impressed with the build. Much easier stomping 1-1-1 with this build compared to 1-gate FE where it seems you need a lot of things to go you way to win. The biggest thing I like about the build is that it is essentially 1-gate robo so even if the terran player is doing something else like a marine ghost push or whatever you can adjust accordingly.
On September 12 2011 14:46 Skyro wrote: Been trying this build on ladder. It does indeed do very well vs 1-1-1. One slight change I do is research +1 weapons right after +1 armor as this lets your immortals 3-shot tanks. You can usually chrono it out before the push hits. Then you can just 1-a your army while micro'ing 3 immortals and 1-shot'ing tanks. Then use a round of warp-ins on stalkers to clean up the banshees when the tanks are gone.
Pretty impressed with the build. Much easier stomping 1-1-1 with this build compared to 1-gate FE where it seems you need a lot of things to go you way to win. The biggest thing I like about the build is that it is essentially 1-gate robo so even if the terran player is doing something else like a marine ghost push or whatever you can adjust accordingly.
Nothing really to see though. It's exactly how I described it above. The build is an exact copy of the OP's except I also grab +1 weapons and I simply 1-A my army into his and micro a small group of immortals to kill the tanks. That's it. That's why I was impressed with the build. Generally with a 1-gate FE going up against a 1-1-1 I feel like I have to claw tooth and nail to win whereas here I just simply roll his army with minimal micro. No flanking, nothing.
Somewhat ironic that immortals seemingly become popular again....BEFORE the range-buff. Throughout the last year I've seen quite a lot immortal/zealot/sentry all-ins, yet this is the most disgusting one (in a good way ) as it comes so late but has enough immortals to literally one-shot defensive structures. The next obvious step would be to re-design the build to allow for a quick expansion while forcing terrans into an absurd amount of defense. Which is what Kiwikaki has been doing, IIRC (there are few reps of him out there atm).
The only thing I really don't like: 5 gateways. There is mathematical proof that 5 gateways are not needed for efficient, constant production. The only build where you want to have 5 gates is the 5 gate sentry/zealot all-in as it absolutely relies on the initial "swell" of units after warpgate-tech is finished. But with this build (and all other all-ins that work together with robo and/or stargate) you will be completely fine with 4 gates.
On September 12 2011 13:20 Keilah wrote: looks like a fun build overall but i'm pretty sure a variety of smackdown counters will be out soon.
Off the top of my head:
Fast +1 attack, rine/ghost
BFH + whatever, GS gonna last about 0.5s into the battle
Many banshees
however if mass immortal can be viable, i'm happy! I always like zlot/sentry/immortal vs terran =)
proxima has allready posted several with replays.. check page 3 of the thread. he blindcountered cause he knew what was coming (dont remember, but in some of the games I dont recall him scouting in directly), but get an scv in his base 5:30 ish or use a scan if you have to (you need to find out what the toss is doing at around this time anyway if you dont see an expo) and the building forge and robo is along with the early gas scouted earlier a pretty good tell whats coming xP
On September 12 2011 17:30 sleepingdog wrote: Somewhat ironic that immortals seemingly become popular again....BEFORE the range-buff. Throughout the last year I've seen quite a lot immortal/zealot/sentry all-ins, yet this is the most disgusting one (in a good way ) as it comes so late but has enough immortals to literally one-shot defensive structures. The next obvious step would be to re-design the build to allow for a quick expansion while forcing terrans into an absurd amount of defense. Which is what Kiwikaki has been doing, IIRC (there are few reps of him out there atm).
The only thing I really don't like: 5 gateways. There is mathematical proof that 5 gateways are not needed for efficient, constant production. The only build where you want to have 5 gates is the 5 gate sentry/zealot all-in as it absolutely relies on the initial "swell" of units after warpgate-tech is finished. But with this build (and all other all-ins that work together with robo and/or stargate) you will be completely fine with 4 gates.
You can actually do Kiwikakis 2 gate robo sentry/immortal opening and hit basically the same timing. Your attack comes about 1 min later with the same army and upgrades but you also have your expo, more probes, and you can reinforce with a higher gateway count.
On September 12 2011 17:30 sleepingdog wrote: Somewhat ironic that immortals seemingly become popular again....BEFORE the range-buff. Throughout the last year I've seen quite a lot immortal/zealot/sentry all-ins, yet this is the most disgusting one (in a good way ) as it comes so late but has enough immortals to literally one-shot defensive structures. The next obvious step would be to re-design the build to allow for a quick expansion while forcing terrans into an absurd amount of defense. Which is what Kiwikaki has been doing, IIRC (there are few reps of him out there atm).
The only thing I really don't like: 5 gateways. There is mathematical proof that 5 gateways are not needed for efficient, constant production. The only build where you want to have 5 gates is the 5 gate sentry/zealot all-in as it absolutely relies on the initial "swell" of units after warpgate-tech is finished. But with this build (and all other all-ins that work together with robo and/or stargate) you will be completely fine with 4 gates.
You can actually do Kiwikakis 2 gate robo/sentry/immortal opening and hit basically the same timing. Your attack comes about 1 min later with the same army and upgrades but you also have your expo, more probes, and you can get more gateways.
Do you have any links to VODs of this or anything like that? Sounds interesting.
I have been using this build (low masters) and it seems to just roll over most fe's. You really only need 3 gates with the 4th one finishing right as your last immortal coming out, and just reinforce the attack with pure gateway units.
It seems like a bad idea to transition to Archons, as your whole midgame army will end up incredibly vulnerable to any Ghost timings. In fact it's probably smart to go Colossus every time because the logical counter to this build is to delay floating the expansion and get Ghosts and Medivacs. I think that is the best way to play TvP currently anyway and Immortal all-ins always were pretty good at punishing quirky Terran builds and fast expansions. This will definitely discourage people from 1/1/1ing every game, but I don't think Terrans have much to fear if they just play standard.
I think this build will be great until Terrans catch on. My worry is if Terran is thinking of a 1-1-1 but turtles hard in response to seeing this and goes for 2 port banshees.. then does some super all in with about 10 of them. Gonna abuse it while I can though.
On September 12 2011 17:30 sleepingdog wrote: Somewhat ironic that immortals seemingly become popular again....BEFORE the range-buff. Throughout the last year I've seen quite a lot immortal/zealot/sentry all-ins, yet this is the most disgusting one (in a good way ) as it comes so late but has enough immortals to literally one-shot defensive structures. The next obvious step would be to re-design the build to allow for a quick expansion while forcing terrans into an absurd amount of defense. Which is what Kiwikaki has been doing, IIRC (there are few reps of him out there atm).
The only thing I really don't like: 5 gateways. There is mathematical proof that 5 gateways are not needed for efficient, constant production. The only build where you want to have 5 gates is the 5 gate sentry/zealot all-in as it absolutely relies on the initial "swell" of units after warpgate-tech is finished. But with this build (and all other all-ins that work together with robo and/or stargate) you will be completely fine with 4 gates.
You can actually do Kiwikakis 2 gate robo sentry/immortal opening and hit basically the same timing. Your attack comes about 1 min later with the same army and upgrades but you also have your expo, more probes, and you can reinforce with a higher gateway count.
Kiwikaki's 2 gate robo has his forge and robo bay go up at the same time before the 3rd gate, so the +1 armor/wep is delayed for a MUCH longer time than histers. Also he throws his 3rd and 4th gate after the expo. His build is more geared towards a two base timing with a bunch of stalkers/colossus and +1 wep as well as thermal lance.
On September 12 2011 17:30 sleepingdog wrote: Somewhat ironic that immortals seemingly become popular again....BEFORE the range-buff. Throughout the last year I've seen quite a lot immortal/zealot/sentry all-ins, yet this is the most disgusting one (in a good way ) as it comes so late but has enough immortals to literally one-shot defensive structures. The next obvious step would be to re-design the build to allow for a quick expansion while forcing terrans into an absurd amount of defense. Which is what Kiwikaki has been doing, IIRC (there are few reps of him out there atm).
The only thing I really don't like: 5 gateways. There is mathematical proof that 5 gateways are not needed for efficient, constant production. The only build where you want to have 5 gates is the 5 gate sentry/zealot all-in as it absolutely relies on the initial "swell" of units after warpgate-tech is finished. But with this build (and all other all-ins that work together with robo and/or stargate) you will be completely fine with 4 gates.
You can actually do Kiwikakis 2 gate robo sentry/immortal opening and hit basically the same timing. Your attack comes about 1 min later with the same army and upgrades but you also have your expo, more probes, and you can reinforce with a higher gateway count.
Kiwikaki's 2 gate robo has his forge and robo bay go up at the same time before the 3rd gate, so the +1 armor/wep is delayed for a MUCH longer time than histers. Also he throws his 3rd and 4th gate after the expo. His build is more geared towards a two base timing with a bunch of stalkers/colossus and +1 wep as well as thermal lance.
I was just referring to more his opening style with the fast immortals and then using sentries and immortals to defend after he expands or really any 2 gate robo expand can work as well. After I expand I continue to warp in sentries and produce immortals and I add a forge as the 2nd immortal is building and then later add on gateways.
On September 13 2011 03:19 AnalThermometer wrote: I think this build will be great until Terrans catch on. My worry is if Terran is thinking of a 1-1-1 but turtles hard in response to seeing this and goes for 2 port banshees.. then does some super all in with about 10 of them. Gonna abuse it while I can though.
If so, the terran simply outplayed you? If you catch onto his switch, you can yourself switch to producing stalkers/sentries, you do after all have 5 gateways.
yeah the build needs some refinement that's for sure.
-when to scout/what to look for? -when to start warpgate (immediately after robo IMO) -should you make an observer? only in certain (which?) situations? When to make it? -how many probes? -when to start +1 armor/should we get +1 attack? -do we really need 5 gates? Are we stopping immortal production at some point? -this build frequently floats some mins/gas until the gates are up, is there a way to smooth things out or is it ok?
Wow, I have been stomping Terrans with this build in high diamond even with my sometimes poor execution. Thanks for the great build. This absolutely crushes any fast expand and makes bunkers a joke.
Immortals own roaches and spines and zealot/sentry with + 1 would own lings. You could probably hit before mutas/infestors so fast hydra's would be your only fear.
On September 13 2011 10:15 tarath wrote: I wonder if this could be adapted for PvZ?
Immortals own roaches and spines and zealot/sentry with + 1 would own lings. You could probably hit before mutas/infestors so fast hydra's would be your only fear.
On September 13 2011 10:15 tarath wrote: I wonder if this could be adapted for PvZ?
Immortals own roaches and spines and zealot/sentry with + 1 would own lings. You could probably hit before mutas/infestors so fast hydra's would be your only fear.
Cough cough banelings.
banelings only do 10 to immortals, and you would have more than enough ffs..
On September 13 2011 06:07 paintfive wrote: I've found a way to make this push even stronger.
HALLUCINATION! since you can get so many sentries, hallucinating archons with this completely roflstomps terrans. I get it sometime after my +1.
I also use a modified build that naniwa used in that vs strelok on xel naga. I think it's a better BO, i'll post it if anyone wants it.
please do.
seconded. would love to see this
BO is (not optomized fully)
12 Gate 14 Gas 18 Gas 20 Stalker - chrono 26 Sentry - chrono naniwa starts pulling probes out of gas 1 by 1 at this point to make an expansion, since this in all-in i just use those minerals for more gates / faster robo 26 Robo 26 Gate 28 Sentry - chrono Add more Gateways here as you wish.
Warpgates finish around 6:00 to 6:30, depending on how many chronos you spend on it. As you transform the Gateways to Warpgates, chrono them and warp in more units.
Since a Forge and +1 takes 3 minutes, build them in advance to match the timing you'd like to hit at. I personally don't bother choroning the Core at all.
On September 13 2011 10:15 tarath wrote: I wonder if this could be adapted for PvZ?
Immortals own roaches and spines and zealot/sentry with + 1 would own lings. You could probably hit before mutas/infestors so fast hydra's would be your only fear.
Cough cough banelings.
banelings only do 10 to immortals, and you would have more than enough ffs..
Just tried it twice and won twice, 2nd opponent even build 4 spines and I pushed up into them on shakuras.
And since I'm just learning the build my execution is horrible. So, I think there is definitely hope for it.
Banes take out the zeals/sentries, speedlings clean up the immortals. I think the zerg would really have to be incompetent to not be able to stop this push...
I think this build at the moment can chalk up a lot of its success to the shock factor as its so new. It seems very strong vs T, but I believe there are many options zerg could use to stop it. Mutas off 2 base would also do wonderfully for example.
On September 13 2011 10:15 tarath wrote: I wonder if this could be adapted for PvZ?
Immortals own roaches and spines and zealot/sentry with + 1 would own lings. You could probably hit before mutas/infestors so fast hydra's would be your only fear.
Cough cough banelings.
banelings only do 10 to immortals, and you would have more than enough ffs..
Then according to your theorycraft, lings and banelings and go around the FFs and banes kill Sentries and Zealot and lings kill Immortal. Of course i won't have perfect surround nor will you have perfect forcefield, all i am saying is that he forgot a unit call baneling, thats simply it.
On September 13 2011 06:07 paintfive wrote: I've found a way to make this push even stronger.
HALLUCINATION! since you can get so many sentries, hallucinating archons with this completely roflstomps terrans. I get it sometime after my +1.
I also use a modified build that naniwa used in that vs strelok on xel naga. I think it's a better BO, i'll post it if anyone wants it.
please do.
seconded. would love to see this
BO is (not optomized fully)
12 Gate 14 Gas 18 Gas 20 Stalker - chrono 26 Sentry - chrono naniwa starts pulling probes out of gas 1 by 1 at this point to make an expansion, since this in all-in i just use those minerals for more gates / faster robo 26 Robo 26 Gate 28 Sentry - chrono Add more Gateways here as you wish.
Warpgates finish around 6:00 to 6:30, depending on how many chronos you spend on it. As you transform the Gateways to Warpgates, chrono them and warp in more units.
Since a Forge and +1 takes 3 minutes, build them in advance to match the timing you'd like to hit at. I personally don't bother choroning the Core at all.
On September 13 2011 10:15 tarath wrote: I wonder if this could be adapted for PvZ?
Immortals own roaches and spines and zealot/sentry with + 1 would own lings. You could probably hit before mutas/infestors so fast hydra's would be your only fear.
Cough cough banelings.
banelings only do 10 to immortals, and you would have more than enough ffs..
Then according to your theorycraft, lings and banelings and go around the FFs and banes kill Sentries and Zealot and lings kill Immortal. Of course i won't have perfect surround nor will you have perfect forcefield, all i am saying is that he forgot a unit call baneling, thats simply it.
Yeah I definitely forgot about banelings.
In general I think the following:
1) this is a good counter to the 1-1-1, but has to be done blind to a large extent 2) it is a great way to get easy wins right now 3) terran (and zerg) will have no trouble finding a variety of counters very quickly, at least as the build is now. 4) given that this all-in is so strong now, it is exciting to think about the potential of the range 6 immortal.
This seems to rip through marine-tank, but I'm having some difficulties when Terran goes for a 1-1-1 with a lot of banshees. Especially with cloak. I had a game today where I beat the ground army completely but was left with 4 cloaked banshees ripping apart my base as I killed Terran's main and he floated all his buildings away.
How have you been dealing with base trade scenarios or lots of banshees when doing this?
On September 13 2011 11:49 GomJabbar wrote: This seems to rip through marine-tank, but I'm having some difficulties when Terran goes for a 1-1-1 with a lot of banshees. Especially with cloak. I had a game today where I beat the ground army completely but was left with 4 cloaked banshees ripping apart my base as I killed Terran's main and he floated all his buildings away.
How have you been dealing with base trade scenarios or lots of banshees when doing this?
when you scout he has committed hard to banshees start building stalkers and cannons.
On September 13 2011 10:15 tarath wrote: I wonder if this could be adapted for PvZ?
Immortals own roaches and spines and zealot/sentry with + 1 would own lings. You could probably hit before mutas/infestors so fast hydra's would be your only fear.
Cough cough banelings.
banelings only do 10 to immortals, and you would have more than enough ffs..
Just tried it twice and won twice, 2nd opponent even build 4 spines and I pushed up into them on shakuras.
And since I'm just learning the build my execution is horrible. So, I think there is definitely hope for it.
i've tried zlot/sentry/immortal/+1 many times vs z and it generally isn't good. You may be surprised to learn that pure sling wins handily, banes are nice, and if he reaches hydras or mutas or +1(armor or ling attack) or infestors, you are done. Really all you beat is roaches, roach/ling, and spine-heavy defenses.
IMO you won vs the guy who made spines BECAUSE he made spines, which are more or less useless vs immortals.
On September 13 2011 06:07 paintfive wrote: I've found a way to make this push even stronger.
HALLUCINATION! since you can get so many sentries, hallucinating archons with this completely roflstomps terrans. I get it sometime after my +1.
I also use a modified build that naniwa used in that vs strelok on xel naga. I think it's a better BO, i'll post it if anyone wants it.
please do.
seconded. would love to see this
BO is (not optomized fully)
12 Gate 14 Gas 18 Gas 20 Stalker - chrono 26 Sentry - chrono naniwa starts pulling probes out of gas 1 by 1 at this point to make an expansion, since this in all-in i just use those minerals for more gates / faster robo 26 Robo 26 Gate 28 Sentry - chrono Add more Gateways here as you wish.
Warpgates finish around 6:00 to 6:30, depending on how many chronos you spend on it. As you transform the Gateways to Warpgates, chrono them and warp in more units.
Since a Forge and +1 takes 3 minutes, build them in advance to match the timing you'd like to hit at. I personally don't bother choroning the Core at all.
where is the forge in this BO?
I find it that a forge and cannon so early is usually unnecessary and opt for more units and gateways.
I think from the terran perspective, medivacs are bad here. Can't outheal immortal DPS vs marauders and rines are low enough HP that they die in 1-2 volleys anyways (depending what units are hitting). Bunkers bad for the same reason, they just die too fast to be repaired and don't dish any DPS + are immobile.
So IMO take less gas, use what you have for upgrades and maybe fast ghosts instead of factory/starport/medivacs.
You cannot fault people for trying to win ladder games, sure personally I hate the fact that a lot of people pick up on these gimmicky builds and than just exploit the shit out of them but that is just the nature of this game and the community
As a general rule, your argument is supposed to come to a conclusion to make your point and/or refute the other person in the debate. You tend not to want to make grand, sweeping, absurd claims without any reasoning behind them, such as the opening of this message. Last I checked, it's not an apriori truth that you can't fault people for purposefully pathetic on the internet in order to win. Moreso when they're in the casual level leagues anyhow.
You cannot fault people for trying to win ladder games, sure personally I hate the fact that a lot of people pick up on these gimmicky builds and than just exploit the shit out of them but that is just the nature of this game and the community
As a general rule, your argument is supposed to come to a conclusion to make your point and/or refute the other person in the debate. You tend not to want to make grand, sweeping, absurd claims without any reasoning behind them, such as the opening of this message. Last I checked, it's not an apriori truth that you can't fault people for purposefully pathetic on the internet in order to win. Moreso when they're in the casual level leagues anyhow.
Yes, god forbid casual players take the game casually and do strategies they enjoy doing.
You cannot fault people for trying to win ladder games, sure personally I hate the fact that a lot of people pick up on these gimmicky builds and than just exploit the shit out of them but that is just the nature of this game and the community
As a general rule, your argument is supposed to come to a conclusion to make your point and/or refute the other person in the debate. You tend not to want to make grand, sweeping, absurd claims without any reasoning behind them, such as the opening of this message. Last I checked, it's not an apriori truth that you can't fault people for purposefully pathetic on the internet in order to win. Moreso when they're in the casual level leagues anyhow.
Did you even read what you said before you posted it, or did you just try cram as much shit and as many big words into the sentence as you could to try and sound smart? Your post makes no sense. Also, as the guy above me said, god forbid people play to win...
Though this seems like a pretty interesting build considering the current metagame, the counter that Proxima has figured out seems to be pretty solid. Once Terrans catch on this build will probably die out.
Looking to see if I can find some replays of Kiwikaki's 2 base version of this. Being able to do something similar and taken an expansion seems fantastic.
if this catches on to the point that it is recognizable, its pretty easily countered. you cant deny the terran from scouting that you are on one base, and a scan is justified in that situation to prepare for whatever 1 base craziness the toss is planning. if the terran is on one base when he scouts, you guys play an awkward standoff that benefits the terran because of mule super saturation and the inevitable floating cc. if he is on 2 i think the correct response is to retreat to natural and bunker the hell out of the ramp while tryin to get a couple ghosts out. a 1-1-1 should be able to scout multiple immortals coming with banshee harass and just not attack until ghosts. either way, cool build. insane seeing a full wall with 5 bunkers going down in a matter of seconds.
I think its a interesting build to have at your disposal. But as proxima displayed you cant just go this build everytime when your enemy knows exactly what your doing. I dislike the opening with forge as it really gives the build away. Also i have been testing and the build comes too late for a 1 base all in. If your going to attack so late you could get a expansion with a few probes with the same units but without +1.
at 9:50 i was outside his base with 4 immortal (double robo after expo to get 4 out quick enouth to hit before 10:00) 9 zealot 1 stalker 4 sentry 35 probe 2 base
Banshee isn't really the best argument. Yeah it hardcounters the build, but but that many banshees isn't that common. And when you scout it you can simply warp in stalkers. And you already have the Robo for OBs
The real issue of this build are ghost timings with MM. Which are standard play for TvP and utterly destroy this style. Unless of course you play on the lower levels where people miss their EMPs.
I really, really like this build. I wonder, though, if it could be worked into more of an opener than an all-in. The style of 1 gateway, 1 robo, and the early forge is a lot of fun, and feels a bit more BWish than a lot of toss openers. Could a couple of the warpgates be cut for an expo without creating a giant window for them to walk over and kill you? It'd be nice to have a macro opener that, while a little slow on the expo, is safe, gives you a quick leg up on upgrades and tech, and can still turn aggressive if need be by switching to the all-in version.
On September 13 2011 20:48 Haydin wrote: I really, really like this build. I wonder, though, if it could be worked into more of an opener than an all-in. The style of 1 gateway, 1 robo, and the early forge is a lot of fun, and feels a bit more BWish than a lot of toss openers. Could a couple of the warpgates be cut for an expo without creating a giant window for them to walk over and kill you? It'd be nice to have a macro opener that, while a little slow on the expo, is safe, gives you a quick leg up on upgrades and tech, and can still turn aggressive if need be by switching to the all-in version.
Well that build uses 5 gateways, so considering the costs, going for 3 gates with one less zealot in the push allows for an expo around the 8' mark I believe ? Not so bad, but if the push doesn't work, you won't be able to reinforce as efficiently.
my question would be, why do you prioritize armor over attack upgrades? immortal with +2 attack 2-shots stimmed marines and marauders, and scvs - not to speak of buildings (which just vanish instantly).
On September 13 2011 21:12 Ganseng wrote: my question would be, why do you prioritize armor over attack upgrades? immortal with +2 attack 2-shots stimmed marines and marauders, and scvs - not to speak of buildings (which just vanish instantly).
immortals already shred marauders, and every bit of armor helps tremendously against marines - going for armor is definitely the correct choice, given that your opponent wants to have a lot of marines against your composition
+armor is always better against masses as the +attack will not affect how fast you will kill the units (which is usually 1/2 shots). The longer your units live the more shots they get in. PvP for example favors +attack as you can assume he will also have a similar force of rather hard hitting units.
On September 13 2011 21:12 Ganseng wrote: my question would be, why do you prioritize armor over attack upgrades? immortal with +2 attack 2-shots stimmed marines and marauders, and scvs - not to speak of buildings (which just vanish instantly).
It seems the point of the build is to be heavily armored.
On September 13 2011 12:17 Techno wrote: Im a Terran player. I am lost in a sea of confusion. I feel like how all you guys talk about, but this time it seems so much more
Forcefields and scouting would stop a 3rax pretty well. At which point, I'd cut back on the immortal production (push with 3 instead of 5 perhaps), and increase zealot/sentry.
I feel like this build would get DEMOLISHED by the kiri Nitro reaper fast expand(which is kinda trendy ATM), or any kind of very early aggression. Its a cool all in but I cant say I would rely on this in ladder. Maybe in a set for a tournament if the player has a very passive opening style but thats really it.
ok, ive been using this general onebase robo build in my arsenal for a while, esp on close positions--- FOR ALL THOSE PROTOSS STRUGGLING TO MAKE THIS WORK: when you engage at their natural vs bunkers and mm with stim~ you HAVE to pull back when all ur zealots die, warp in more zealots/sentry and move back in (dont worry you still have an advantage aslong as ur immortals are alive), it could be a long intense battle, but you have to keep your immortals and some sentrys alive, those are your big investments in this build, just keep pulling back when your zealots die, he will keep losing units and scvs every time you engage, if you commit on your first and second engagements you will surely lose if the terran kills all ur immortals....and PLEASE MICRO IMMORTALs (it will be easier with next patch but plz micro, it means that ur zealots are up close wasting the MM+scvs)
i would be interested in a 2base or makro with kind of this build as opening or early aggression.just while being able to switch to allin if you see a greedy build.
On September 14 2011 06:01 Alsa wrote: i would be interested in a 2base or makro with kind of this build as opening or early aggression.just while being able to switch to allin if you see a greedy build.
As far as I can tell, this beats 2 rax FE -> MMM in a direct engagement around 10 minutes, apparently beats 1/1/1 handily, and I cant imagine 1 rax FE standing much of a chance. Soooo, Terrans..... is it finally our time to go crying to Blizzard? /sarcasm /cough at immortal buff
Im really digging this build, thanks alot. I have to say I like the version that was used against Techno earlier in the thread. Later forge, with an expansion.. maybe its worse at busting certain builds or holding 1/1/1 than the one base version though i dunno
On September 14 2011 09:50 Jayrod wrote: Im really digging this build, thanks alot. I have to say I like the version that was used against Techno earlier in the thread. Later forge, with an expansion.. maybe its worse at busting certain builds or holding 1/1/1 than the one base version though i dunno
It should probably be referred to as the "Vathus version". lawl.
Seriously though. Someone tell me how to beat this. XD
On September 14 2011 04:33 starbreaker10 wrote: ok, ive been using this general onebase robo build in my arsenal for a while, esp on close positions---
Thanks, Hister. I'm using this build situationally--in 2 situations.
I'm a macro player, but I have been needing a go-to build vs T on close positions. I also am tired of getting rine-SCV-all-inned. It happens every four or five games (I'm only mid/high diamond). I can hold it off, but sometimes, it is a gas less expand rather than an expo. When I misread their gasless opening, I stand to get behind economically. So I'm now using this build as my response to scouting a gasless Terran as it can defend against rine-SCV-all-in and break a gasless FE.
tl;dr I don't like all-ins as a general play style. However, for close positions, and against gasless openings, I find this to be a legitimate build that allows me to dictate early game against Terran (how rare is that!?).
On September 14 2011 11:37 gulshngill wrote: What if I decide to get +1 weapons rather than armor since the damage bonus for immortals would be insane?
Bad idea. The reason is the following:
With no armor upgrade, zealot/sentry/immortal takes 6 damage from a marine at shields and 5 damage from armor (due to the natural +1).
With guardian shield, they all take 4 damage from shields and 3 damage from armor.
With that +1 armor, they take 4 damage from shields and 2 damage from armor. Before you think this is very little, it goes from a zealot needing to take 34 hits to die to 50 hits to die. THATS A LOT OF MARINE SHOTS TO LIVE FOR.
And you don't even know want to know what goes for immortals. They take 100 hits to die now without their shields.
after trying this since the post was made, i've given up. it's too easy to stop. the only reason it works is because tons of terrans are too lazy to scout/scan and adjust their build. if a terran uses his brain even a little bit, they stop it.
or you scrubs could just 1a better and use protoss as it was meant to be used... the race of retards. Now I know how good all of you worthless pricks that think they know how to play this game by playing this game as protoss are and all but just stop. if u want to play a real race play terran. when terran gets blink thors and invisible marines and stuff that is when it's as easy to play terran. now again if u protoss kids have a problem with terran 111 just 11111A better scrubs.... duhhh??
On September 14 2011 15:12 Drinc wrote: I've played against this cannon shit, it's really, REALLY BAD since your tanks just outrange cannons while your marines/banshess defend them.
Did you actually watch any of the replays? You only get a cannon if you scout a 2rax or early marine scv all-in. You need one against these as you open robo after 1 gate. And you only get 1 cannon anyway...
On September 14 2011 15:12 Drinc wrote: I've played against this cannon shit, it's really, REALLY BAD since your tanks just outrange cannons while your marines/banshess defend them.
Did you actually watch any of the replays? You only get a cannon if you scout a 2rax or early marine scv all-in. You need one against these as you open robo after 1 gate. And you only get 1 cannon anyway...
I don't think it's necessary to get a forge if you scout a gas. The only really threatening thing is the marine/SCV all-in. Before everyone (including myself) started going one gate expo, I never died against marine/marauder-pushs by going gate robo gate. Don't think the forge is needed there.
i have only watched the youtube video that has been posted, but based on that i can't really see how this push can crush the 1/1/1 allin. according to the video the push happens at about the 10 minute mark with 5 immortals and a few sentries and zealots. at this point in time a terran going for 1/1/1 will usually have out about 3 bashees out and you don't really have any AA besides the sentries that do horrible damage. won't the terran just be able to snipe all your stuff with those bashees without you being able to do anything about it?
also, at this point in time the terran usually also has about 3 tanks out with siege mode researched, so he can just siege them somewhat behind his bunker line and your army will just be crushed by siege tank fire while it's still occupied with the bunkers (the tanks won't be in range for the immos yet)
On September 14 2011 21:18 cdd wrote: i have only watched the youtube video that has been posted, but based on that i can't really see how this push can crush the 1/1/1 allin. according to the video the push happens at about the 10 minute mark with 5 immortals and a few sentries and zealots. at this point in time a terran going for 1/1/1 will usually have out about 3 bashees out and you don't really have any AA besides the sentries that do horrible damage. won't the terran just be able to snipe all your stuff with those bashees without you being able to do anything about it?
also, at this point in time the terran usually also has about 3 tanks out with siege mode researched, so he can just siege them somewhat behind his bunker line and your army will just be crushed by siege tank fire while it's still occupied with the bunkers (the tanks won't be in range for the immos yet)
am i missing something here?
You are underestimating sentry dps wich is 6. when stalker dps is 6.9 on non armored units, so in the end diffrence isnt so huge as you may think.
On September 14 2011 21:18 cdd wrote: i have only watched the youtube video that has been posted, but based on that i can't really see how this push can crush the 1/1/1 allin. according to the video the push happens at about the 10 minute mark with 5 immortals and a few sentries and zealots. at this point in time a terran going for 1/1/1 will usually have out about 3 bashees out and you don't really have any AA besides the sentries that do horrible damage. won't the terran just be able to snipe all your stuff with those bashees without you being able to do anything about it?
also, at this point in time the terran usually also has about 3 tanks out with siege mode researched, so he can just siege them somewhat behind his bunker line and your army will just be crushed by siege tank fire while it's still occupied with the bunkers (the tanks won't be in range for the immos yet)
am i missing something here?
You are underestimating sentry dps wich is 6. when stalker dps is 6.9 on non armored units, so in the end diffrence isnt so huge as you may think.
Sentries are also slower, have less range, have only 80 health, and cost 100 gas, although they are not affected by pdd. This is why I want to test a 111 build against this
i think if the terran scouts this comming and is doing a 1/1/1 he can just put 4 bunkers on top of his (naturals) ramp, put a line of marines directly behind the bunkers and siege his tanks behind the marines (a little further away so that sieged tank range is the same as bunker range). according to the replay (the one on youtube) the push hits at around 10 minutes, at which point the terran should have around 4 siege tanks, 3 banshees and a lot of marines.
like i said, the banshees can just pick of the sentries at will and i don't see how the protoss can breach this wall of bunkers, marines and sieged tanks, all his gateway stuff will just die and the immos will never get in range of the tanks.
after the terran has held the push he can basically just keep the wallin up and take his natural (toss will be behind at this point) or (if enough of his marines survived) he can alternatively just sell his bunkers, unsiege and do the regular 1/1/1 push a little delayed. killing the toss at this point would probably be difficult because he still has his immos left and can warp in gateway stuff to hold the push, but the terran can just contain the toss by siegeing up outside of the main (and outside of immo range) and get his expo with the money from the sold bunkers.
edit: i'm not saying that this push is not strong or that my way of dealing with it would actually work, it's just what i would instinctively do when i scout it
On September 14 2011 15:12 Drinc wrote: I've played against this cannon shit, it's really, REALLY BAD since your tanks just outrange cannons while your marines/banshess defend them.
Did you actually watch any of the replays? You only get a cannon if you scout a 2rax or early marine scv all-in. You need one against these as you open robo after 1 gate. And you only get 1 cannon anyway...
I don't think it's necessary to get a forge if you scout a gas. The only really threatening thing is the marine/SCV all-in. Before everyone (including myself) started going one gate expo, I never died against marine/marauder-pushs by going gate robo gate. Don't think the forge is needed there.
Isn't the +1 and GS really beneficial for your zealots though? That's at least the feeling I get whenever I try this.
Well... I just scouted this really early and still lost to it with 4 bunkers and repairing scvs. Guess I need to get ghosts a little sooner They were like 10 secs from completion and 40ish from emp:K That +1 and gshield is gaaaaaaah!!!
What if he scouts it and gets 2port banshee? pretty sure a few sentries cant hold off 4+ banshees... Or if he scouts it and goes 1base ghost. or even marine/bfh/banshee...
Definitely a very strong build vs blind play though, be it standard or marine/tank.
On September 14 2011 09:50 Jayrod wrote: Im really digging this build, thanks alot. I have to say I like the version that was used against Techno earlier in the thread. Later forge, with an expansion.. maybe its worse at busting certain builds or holding 1/1/1 than the one base version though i dunno
It should probably be referred to as the "Vathus version". lawl.
Seriously though. Someone tell me how to beat this. XD
Seriously read the thread man.. Its posted several times, and its basically a free win if you scout it, witch isnt really hard when you know what to look for either.
Hmm, I keep crushing this with a 1 rax FE gasless.. As long as I have stim, I've never had to have more than 3 bunkers and have actually never had to bring my scvs to repair (whats the point anyways against like 300 dps against bunkers lol).
If you are doing the 1 rax gasless FE into 3 rax, get 2 tech lab and 1 reactor and just pump constant 2 marines 2 marauders while instantly researching stim. Stim will be done by 9:00, perfect timing to stop this push, and marauders actually do better against it than marines do for a few reasons.
1. Higher DPS against everything. A Marauder does 16 damage to a Immortal past its shields, even which GS, while a marine does 2. A Marauder does 6 damage to a zealot past its shields, while a marine does 2.
2. Coupled with almost 3 times the health, they are pretty sturdy against the zealot sentry (of course they do take more damage from immortals).
Don't go overboard with bunkers, as this will just spread out your units too much, and you want them bunched up. The +1 attack helps, but to be honest I almost never have it out in time for the initial push (it might finish while the fight is going on), but it's never mattered. My friend did it about 5 times to me and I didn't lose to it a single time and it's not like I specifically rushed for ghosts or anything, I was just doing my normal terran macro build.
For reference, with the finished research of stim and +1, the DPS of a marine in your army vs his army increases by 225% which is nuts. The most important upgrade is stim for sure.
Extra info, I usually put the marines in bunkers rather than the marauders, as they are the weaker units health wise, and always remember to stim your bunkers right as the engagement starts for that little extra bit of DPS.
I was analyzing my replays against this last night and every time this build would be close to hitting or hitting(the 9:30 mark), I would have 3 rax, stim done, and about 10 marauders and 17 marines with 2-3 bunkers as well as having a starport OTW for quick teching to medivacs.
I'll drop like 3 replays of this when I get home from work.
I did this 3 times to day in 3v3 :D Fun to do and did win
...then I did it a 4 time and my ally where thinking I were a big noob when the 5 gates (for fun wtf..) come up... So they stopt the teamplaying and we lost. And I am nr 1 in master (+70% win rate!) in my leage so I did think people not where that conservative to new crazy strats lol.
On September 14 2011 09:50 Jayrod wrote: Im really digging this build, thanks alot. I have to say I like the version that was used against Techno earlier in the thread. Later forge, with an expansion.. maybe its worse at busting certain builds or holding 1/1/1 than the one base version though i dunno
It should probably be referred to as the "Vathus version". lawl.
Seriously though. Someone tell me how to beat this. XD
Seriously read the thread man.. Its posted several times, and its basically a free win if you scout it, witch isnt really hard when you know what to look for either.
I've read the whole thread multiple times, can you direct me to some useful information on stopping this as terran?
I like the idea of protoss being able to beat 1-1-1 and break a terrans front(something that was previously almost impossible if they mass repair bunkers) but i'm feeling a little like day9. why make 5 gates, a robo, and a forge on one base? i play around on the ptr some and i tried this same idea out with just 3gate robo and forge and it worked out fairly well because it was easier to produce constantly on 3gates vs 5 while still getting some immortals and the armor upgrade. personally 3gate robo forge with the ability to hold attacks, go attack and potentially end the game or do damage, and then expand and easily tech and continue to get upgrades is more appealing than 5gate robo forge where you're basically all in with a higher chance of ending the game, but if you don't it might be tough to transition out.
hwangsin has been doing a 3gate robo that is something like this, but he does his a little different without the upgrade and other stuff. zeerax (i think) was uprising around the time mondragon first showed up in sc2(again don't quote me on this) and he was playing around with zealot/sentry/immortal and just killing terrans with it. this idea isn't new, but the build is definitely something nice to know how to do now
also has anyone considered +1 attack off of 3-5 gate robo instead of defense? i understand that the armor is to make marines not melt your army, but if you did an earlier smaller attack with less of everything before big numbers of marines come out, would the extra 5 damage against armored and zealots doing 2 more on top of guardian shields be better? i'd test it but school hasn't been kind
The armor almost infinitely better. Someone put the numbers earlier as 34 marine shots compared to 50 marine shots.. and something like... over 150 shots to kill an immortal. It reduces marine damage from 3 - 2, a 50% decrease. General rule of thumb, armor upgrades against fast firing units like marines. The + 1 attack would barely do anything.
Ok I did a bunch of calculations about damage/armor/etc, but it got really annoying trying to figure out all the possibilities so i'm just going to say the following: Your units all attack pretty slowly, and the +1 attack only has like a couple cases where it actually takes less shots to kill a marine or marauder. Some notable ones.. Immortals 2 shot stimmed marauders. But quite honestly, its increasing your DPS by like 20% but increasing his by 50% for his marines.
Imagine for a second that you were able somehow to rush +2 armor against his 0 attack (probably impossible but..) you would reduce his marine damage to 1.. so it would take him over 100 shots to kill a zealot, and over 250 to kill an immortal.
tldr; ARMOR over ATTACKKKKKKKK! dont waste time testing it
On September 16 2011 01:55 VassiliZaytsev wrote: The armor almost infinitely better. Someone put the numbers earlier as 34 marine shots compared to 50 marine shots.. and something like... over 150 shots to kill an immortal. It reduces marine damage from 3 - 2, a 50% decrease. General rule of thumb, armor upgrades against fast firing units like marines. The + 1 attack would barely do anything.
Ok I did a bunch of calculations about damage/armor/etc, but it got really annoying trying to figure out all the possibilities so i'm just going to say the following: Your units all attack pretty slowly, and the +1 attack only has like a couple cases where it actually takes less shots to kill a marine or marauder. Some notable ones.. Immortals 2 shot stimmed marauders. But quite honestly, its increasing your DPS by like 20% but increasing his by 50% for his marines.
Imagine for a second that you were able somehow to rush +2 armor against his 0 attack (probably impossible but..) you would reduce his marine damage to 1.. so it would take him over 100 shots to kill a zealot, and over 250 to kill an immortal.
tldr; ARMOR over ATTACKKKKKKKK! dont waste time testing it
Will +1 armor save you against banshees, thors, and tanks?
On September 16 2011 01:55 VassiliZaytsev wrote: The armor almost infinitely better. Someone put the numbers earlier as 34 marine shots compared to 50 marine shots.. and something like... over 150 shots to kill an immortal. It reduces marine damage from 3 - 2, a 50% decrease. General rule of thumb, armor upgrades against fast firing units like marines. The + 1 attack would barely do anything.
Ok I did a bunch of calculations about damage/armor/etc, but it got really annoying trying to figure out all the possibilities so i'm just going to say the following: Your units all attack pretty slowly, and the +1 attack only has like a couple cases where it actually takes less shots to kill a marine or marauder. Some notable ones.. Immortals 2 shot stimmed marauders. But quite honestly, its increasing your DPS by like 20% but increasing his by 50% for his marines.
Imagine for a second that you were able somehow to rush +2 armor against his 0 attack (probably impossible but..) you would reduce his marine damage to 1.. so it would take him over 100 shots to kill a zealot, and over 250 to kill an immortal.
tldr; ARMOR over ATTACKKKKKKKK! dont waste time testing it
Will +1 armor save you against banshees, thors, and tanks?
banshees do some insane dps, so like the guy after me stated (like i already knew and thought i said >.>) those hit more often quickly to add up, so the armor upgrade comes into effect more often. it't not the same as the marine, but it might help? thors i don't think so, but idk. tanks unseiged it again might help, but sieged wouldn't do much at all.
in my previous babble i was thinking about the bust depending on what terran has and what unit composition you have. i.e. less immortals, but more zealot/sentries vs his fe with less units and more bunkers or something weird. the idea was also by the ten minute mark and a 20food forge, i think its possible to get +1 attack and +1 armor out by the time the push hits. for another race this might seem dumb, but for protoss its cutting 2 sentries and a zealot worth of resources to get those upgrades. from OP you push with 80 food and +1 armor or 74 food with +1/1. now which is better assuming you could get it done in the same time frame? just theorycrafting some though so idk if its even possible.
banshee = 2X12 attack verse a +1 armor +guardian shield protected stalker turns that 2X12 into 2x8 instead. Yes I do believe armor over attack is awesome
Also the stalker +1 attack is lame since bonus damage gets nothing
Tanks, armor upgrade actually greatly effects the splash of tanks so its good
Isn't Hister a character prophesied by Nostradamus that turned out to be Hitler? Or something like that. I know Haggard sing about it in Awaking the centuries.
On September 16 2011 01:25 BoondockVeritas wrote: I like the idea of protoss being able to beat 1-1-1 and break a terrans front(something that was previously almost impossible if they mass repair bunkers) but i'm feeling a little like day9. why make 5 gates, a robo, and a forge on one base? i play around on the ptr some and i tried this same idea out with just 3gate robo and forge and it worked out fairly well because it was easier to produce constantly on 3gates vs 5 while still getting some immortals and the armor upgrade. personally 3gate robo forge with the ability to hold attacks, go attack and potentially end the game or do damage, and then expand and easily tech and continue to get upgrades is more appealing than 5gate robo forge where you're basically all in with a higher chance of ending the game, but if you don't it might be tough to transition out.
hwangsin has been doing a 3gate robo that is something like this, but he does his a little different without the upgrade and other stuff. zeerax (i think) was uprising around the time mondragon first showed up in sc2(again don't quote me on this) and he was playing around with zealot/sentry/immortal and just killing terrans with it. this idea isn't new, but the build is definitely something nice to know how to do now
also has anyone considered +1 attack off of 3-5 gate robo instead of defense? i understand that the armor is to make marines not melt your army, but if you did an earlier smaller attack with less of everything before big numbers of marines come out, would the extra 5 damage against armored and zealots doing 2 more on top of guardian shields be better? i'd test it but school hasn't been kind
Yeah I'm in the same boat I'm trying to figure out a way to just make it that really steady expo strat with chronoing the gateways to get a good combo of mass immo enough zeals to tank and stalkers to take out banshee's.
I'm doing something a little crazy right now though 3 gate robo stargate get 3 to 5 phenoix's then stopping and have them focus on the bansee's so I can just go pure zeal on the gate's. can anyone tell me the minimum amount of immo's I'll need to roll the tanks in a 1/1/1 ? I really like this opening but I'm at the stage where I need to cut corners and thats just difficult for a newb.
comps are changing but I want a carrier HT zeal combo and hideing the ht's around but mass carrier looks so sexy to me right now.
Yea the guy above me just answered that, armor does help vs banshees.. the only thing your attack upgrade is going to help is sentries in that composition unless you warp in stalkers gaining a +1 damage. Splash damage is lowered from tanks, and with the inclusion of Guardian shield in the new patch affecting tank damage its going to be nice. And this push is supposed to hit by 10 minutes at the latest right? No one is going to have Thor Tank and Banshee, and if they do they will have like 1 of each at most -_-.
Ok if you scout the guy going mass thor..... maybe +1 attack is better, but 2 thors hitting at like 8 minutes is still going to have a good group of marines.. so the armor going to maybe even help more than attack.
I should also add that immortals with the +1 attack are going to take only 1 less shot to kill a thor, and overkill it by 32 HP, and you generally want to specifically go for attack upgrades if they are going to do something super special like 2 shot instead of 3 shot zerglings or something like that. 8 Shotting thors instead of 9 shotting them isnt really much of a bonus, but surviving like an extra 20 marine shots PER zealot is sick. Also attack upgrades arent much good if you can't get in range.
i just can't see a +1 attack ever being more effective than a +1 armor in PvT except if you are massing blink stalkers (lolrauders) or going up against ONLY thor with chargelot or something.
On September 15 2011 23:45 VassiliZaytsev wrote: Hmm, I keep crushing this with a 1 rax FE gasless.. As long as I have stim, I've never had to have more than 3 bunkers and have actually never had to bring my scvs to repair (whats the point anyways against like 300 dps against bunkers lol).
If you are doing the 1 rax gasless FE into 3 rax, get 2 tech lab and 1 reactor and just pump constant 2 marines 2 marauders while instantly researching stim. Stim will be done by 9:00, perfect timing to stop this push, and marauders actually do better against it than marines do for a few reasons.
1. Higher DPS against everything. A Marauder does 16 damage to a Immortal past its shields, even which GS, while a marine does 2. A Marauder does 6 damage to a zealot past its shields, while a marine does 2.
2. Coupled with almost 3 times the health, they are pretty sturdy against the zealot sentry (of course they do take more damage from immortals).
Don't go overboard with bunkers, as this will just spread out your units too much, and you want them bunched up. The +1 attack helps, but to be honest I almost never have it out in time for the initial push (it might finish while the fight is going on), but it's never mattered. My friend did it about 5 times to me and I didn't lose to it a single time and it's not like I specifically rushed for ghosts or anything, I was just doing my normal terran macro build.
For reference, with the finished research of stim and +1, the DPS of a marine in your army vs his army increases by 225% which is nuts. The most important upgrade is stim for sure.
Extra info, I usually put the marines in bunkers rather than the marauders, as they are the weaker units health wise, and always remember to stim your bunkers right as the engagement starts for that little extra bit of DPS.
I was analyzing my replays against this last night and every time this build would be close to hitting or hitting(the 9:30 mark), I would have 3 rax, stim done, and about 10 marauders and 17 marines with 2-3 bunkers as well as having a starport OTW for quick teching to medivacs.
I'll drop like 3 replays of this when I get home from work.
Yeah I played this build once on ladder and just crushed it.
I think the problem is when you scout no expo at 6:00 then scan their base and see a forge + immortals you know exactly what's coming and can immediately get both +1 and ghosts (especially since I use the SlayerS 1 rax FE which already has +1 in the build) in time to stop this push.
Stim+bunkers&+1 weap+ghosts demolish this.
If there was a way for you to not have the build so obvious I think it would work better.
If you get the forge at 20 food you can get both upgrades by 9:30, which is when this push usually hits. So double forge is unnecessary, just start +1 armor immediately and +1 attack right after.
On September 16 2011 02:53 King.Crimson wrote: Isn't Hister a character prophesied by Nostradamus that turned out to be Hitler? Or something like that. I know Haggard sing about it in Awaking the centuries.
Hister is a place in the lower Danube.
"But what about the Hitler prophecy? Simply put, it is vague, and when read we find it does not refer to Hitler at all. Nostradamus talks about conflict, division, strife and war. He also specifically mentions the area in and around Germany. But of course this has been the site of countless battles and conflicts throughout history. Nostradamus said, "Most of the army will be against the lower Danube [Hister sera]. The great one shall be dragged in an iron cage when the child brother [de Germain] will observe nothing."
This is where Hitler is supposed to have been named by name. But it says "Hister sera" and not "Hitler." Besides that, "Hister sera" does not refer to a person at all, but to a place. It is amazing that people get all worked up over things like this, and never check them out to see if there is really any validity to them."
On September 15 2011 22:17 Acidictadpole wrote: I wonder if there's a way to make this safer to ghost play.
Most terrans won't have ghosts by the 10 minute mark
Didn't Proxima have them in his replays?
He played hister 3 times in a row... Don't you think HE KNEW the push was coming?
how does that matter considering that you will KNOW that this push is coming either by scanning his base once or scouting for an expo at the 8 minute mark
10 minute ghosts aren't unreasonable at all considering how easy this is to scout
hurray i sparked conversation about double upgrades and a little about expo! maybe someday someone will find a build thats more like the 1/1/1 for protoss that terran has to constantly play in fear of and not do greedy things because of it. Que terran complaining about protoss being imba imba ibma*
On September 16 2011 03:03 socommaster123 wrote: In your build you say build double gas at 17 but in the replay you get gas at 14 and 17 which is the correct way to do it!?!?
doesnt really change much actually, you still are going to get the gas you need in time
I coudn't win against masters terrans.(im mid diamond) *but won all games against diamond terrans.
But i'm not a good player, and i'm still tryng to improve and change some details... but it really dont look very promissing on > top diamond. *lets see on next patch.
A good counter for that first push, it build rax in front of the natural. Using this, a simple 3 rax stim can win... the terran make 40+ marines and that is enough to deal with 9 sentrys/9 zeas/5 immortals...
[off]And thats is normal... every BO have counters if it is scouted properly, like 1/1/1.... OW wait...[/off]
How has nobody mentioned that if you drop the robo right after the stalker you can hit much sooner? On my second attempt I was attacking the terran units at 8:50 with +1 armor, 4 immortals, 4 sentries, 2 zealots, 1 stalker, with 2 extra gates morphing into warpgate mode, and 2 more gates a few seconds behind.
The crucial elements here are +1 armor, GS, and immortals, right? Can always smash thru some bunkers and back off to wait for a few warpins if that's what makes you happy but with people saying they get stim and a ghost around 9:00, seems crucial to hit hard right before that happens.
This is a tremendously innovative build, and completely trashes anyone who doesn't know what it is. But, it's ridiculously scoutable (forge, delayed gas with no expo and no zealots) and it's got an obvious hardcounter which is pretty easy to tech to (EMP).
Has OP actually commented on fighting ghosts with this?
I am not a protoss but is it me if I say that a warp prism addition could be very very nasty? Sure, it costs some but while your friendly Terran is dealing with the push you can warp in units in the back and faceroll his economy. Another thing could be, depending per map, to drop the immortals inbase ?
Hmm I normally do a 1rax expo and add up to 4 rax, get one gas, go up to 5rax and one techlab (for stim) and pump rines and one rauder. Works well vs all the people doing twilight chargelot openings for me. I'd really like to try that vs this build - I think I'd be ok because the only things I spend my gas on are stim and +1 weapons. It's delayed but with so many minerals (only one gas) I have a ton of rines and even though marines only do the 2dmg, immortals are just terrible vs them. Might be diff with 6range immo (patch) and good FF cutting me up but from what I see, most of the sentries are for GS. What I fear the most in my opening is people who kite me with stalkers for days (no medivacs so only one stim - if they kite me from my base it gets tedious) and collusi (but if I scout that I'll add more gas and get vikes).
I'm only a low NA master though so prolly just basic mistakes in my games letting me get away. Like to try it though - msg me teamamerica.915 if anyone wants a game.
On September 16 2011 17:57 Aelonius wrote: I am not a protoss but is it me if I say that a warp prism addition could be very very nasty? Sure, it costs some but while your friendly Terran is dealing with the push you can warp in units in the back and faceroll his economy. Another thing could be, depending per map, to drop the immortals inbase ?
On September 16 2011 18:40 teamamerica wrote: Hmm I normally do a 1rax expo and add up to 4 rax, get one gas, go up to 5rax and one techlab (for stim) and pump rines and one rauder. Works well vs all the people doing twilight chargelot openings for me. I'd really like to try that vs this build - I think I'd be ok because the only things I spend my gas on are stim and +1 weapons. It's delayed but with so many minerals (only one gas) I have a ton of rines and even though marines only do the 2dmg, immortals are just terrible vs them. Might be diff with 6range immo (patch) and good FF cutting me up but from what I see, most of the sentries are for GS. What I fear the most in my opening is people who kite me with stalkers for days (no medivacs so only one stim - if they kite me from my base it gets tedious) and collusi (but if I scout that I'll add more gas and get vikes).
I'm only a low NA master though so prolly just basic mistakes in my games letting me get away. Like to try it though - msg me teamamerica.915 if anyone wants a game.
I tried it except i went for the 5 rax version. Lost horribly, he just had too many units when he hit.
I lost using this strat when the Terran dropped me right when I moved out. I had to come back to save my base, and by that time it's too late. If I leave my base he drops again.
On September 11 2011 19:55 Roynalf wrote: misread title as Hipsters PvT Immortal style
OMG me too!!! I was expecting a guide on how to go against the norm of PvT, with tips on tight jeans and rants on how bad mainstream builds are nowadays
Great build, but I don't like all-inning ;(. I really like Immortals though mid-late game. The problem though is EMP, and the fact that Colossi are 11x more valuable in this MU :o
On September 16 2011 09:27 Keilah wrote: How has nobody mentioned that if you drop the robo right after the stalker you can hit much sooner? On my second attempt I was attacking the terran units at 8:50 with +1 armor, 4 immortals, 4 sentries, 2 zealots, 1 stalker, with 2 extra gates morphing into warpgate mode, and 2 more gates a few seconds behind.
The crucial elements here are +1 armor, GS, and immortals, right? Can always smash thru some bunkers and back off to wait for a few warpins if that's what makes you happy but with people saying they get stim and a ghost around 9:00, seems crucial to hit hard right before that happens.
Can u supply a replay please? I def. feel that this build needs to be refined.
hello, i'm new user here, so please for your understanding :-) i've been lurking this site for quite a time, but this thread push me to create account and join active users ;-)
first of all, TY for this BO. with this my winratio vs T is ROCKETJUMPING TO THE SPACE =) i prefer to hit T about 10.00-10.30 with ~4-6 zets, 4 immos, (initial stalker if he wasn't sniped out) and 7-8 sentries plus additional warp ins near T bases. and, i haven't lost a single game vs T since i've started play this BO, regardless if T went for marine-scv all in, 2 rax push into fe, 1rax FE or even 1base ghost push... ...except infamous 1-1-1. i've read in another topic on TL that vs. 1-1-1 toss should go gate-robo-fe. i've tried incorporate fe to this BO, right about time second sentry and robo is on the way (it's time when my stalker hits T wall and i can scout, what units does he have). tested few times, and with FE puted down about 5min mark in 10. min i should've 4-5 zealots more, and income +250 mins over 1base play, so it should be better. but, if T isn't doing that, and prepares instead some other nasty push (becasue poking stalker that can see only few marines isn't reliable in 100% scouter), then my expo is kinda non-profitable (if i were sitting in 1base, that "other nasty push" should kiss my front door and that's it). so, what do you recommend to play, if i scout or assume that's T is going 1-1-1?
tl;dr - love this BO; what i should play or tranzit if i scout 1-1-1?
a high diamond protoss just tried it against me and it failed horribly. I did a 1 rax FE and it was a piece of cake holding this with 1fact pumping out siege tanks and mmm. immortals trade terribly against marines and if you're holding a position at your natural you can make 2 bunkers and camp him out. Don't see what the big fuss is about. Once he loses the immortals it's gg.
funny thing was the diamond blocked me right after in a fit of nerdrage ^^. Ender, I'm looking at you.
I tired this and failed miserably. But this is probably because of a combinatin of things! -
-I'm in Gold - I probably hit about 15 minutes late - I probably did the build order the opposite way round - Terran's in Gold don't know what fast expanding is, let alone another build vs P that isn't a 3 rax
I'll try again :D
And to the guy above me yeah tanks + marines are pretty good vs this.. with bunkers ofc in front of tanks. Once the range is buffed it shouldn't be a problem though.. maybe
i've only lost 1 game doing this of about 8 that was because the terran did a double hidden proxy starport cloaked banshee base trade all in, he just flew his stuff to the corner and i didn't have any anti air aside from a sentrys
edit: I just got promoted to Diamond with this :D thanks alot for the awesome build
On September 16 2011 02:53 King.Crimson wrote: Isn't Hister a character prophesied by Nostradamus that turned out to be Hitler? Or something like that. I know Haggard sing about it in Awaking the centuries.
Hister is a place in the lower Danube.
"But what about the Hitler prophecy? Simply put, it is vague, and when read we find it does not refer to Hitler at all. Nostradamus talks about conflict, division, strife and war. He also specifically mentions the area in and around Germany. But of course this has been the site of countless battles and conflicts throughout history. Nostradamus said, "Most of the army will be against the lower Danube [Hister sera]. The great one shall be dragged in an iron cage when the child brother [de Germain] will observe nothing."
This is where Hitler is supposed to have been named by name. But it says "Hister sera" and not "Hitler." Besides that, "Hister sera" does not refer to a person at all, but to a place. It is amazing that people get all worked up over things like this, and never check them out to see if there is really any validity to them."
Your interpretation of the text seems reasonable, but I can certainly empathize with the person you're responding to. The basis for my own notice of the name's significance stems from a fairly well-known 1981 documentary narrated by Orson Welles, "The Man Who Saw Tomorrow". Given that people are less likely to try to refer to a place in the lower Danube than history's worst villain, I disagree not with the interpretation of the quatrains you cite, but of the intent of the user.
As for the build itself, it's refreshing to see a build that punishes an abusive build in the metagame - albeit blindly. That it is stomped by builds other than the one it punishes *should* be expected.
If you scout a ghost academy with your observer, do you think it would be wise to put down a stargate and get two pheonixes to counter the ghosts, or would that delay the push too much?
On September 16 2011 09:27 Keilah wrote: How has nobody mentioned that if you drop the robo right after the stalker you can hit much sooner? On my second attempt I was attacking the terran units at 8:50 with +1 armor, 4 immortals, 4 sentries, 2 zealots, 1 stalker, with 2 extra gates morphing into warpgate mode, and 2 more gates a few seconds behind.
The crucial elements here are +1 armor, GS, and immortals, right? Can always smash thru some bunkers and back off to wait for a few warpins if that's what makes you happy but with people saying they get stim and a ghost around 9:00, seems crucial to hit hard right before that happens.
Can u supply a replay please? I def. feel that this build needs to be refined.
Not giving a replay yet cuz it isn't refined to my satisfaction, but here is what i have: (plz note that this is assuming the terran made a gas, which means he can't be rine/scv allining, which means you don't need the early forge for a cannon)
-do as Hister says up to the point where you build a stalker
-after stalker comes a robo ASAP
-after robo is pylon + sentry (i forget which is first)... this will force a bit of a probe cut when you are at 24/26, but if you make another probe you delay your sentry which i'm pretty sure can get you killed
-build nonstop immortals once the robo is done, don't make an observer unless you feel you really need to, but that will slow your push by ~30s which is probably a big deal
-build a forge after you start your first immortal and start +1 armor ASAP, the upgrade should finish around 8:35 with no chronoboost
-build no more than 26 probes total, i'm not sure if 25 or 26 is optimal but don't go past that. I suppose if you went with an observer you could go to 27 probes since your push is delayed meaning that extra probe has time to pay for itself
-if your build is still sloppy and you have to cut something, cut gateway unit production - remember that it is crucial to have 4 immortals with +1 armor 2-shotting his bunkers ASAP, having +-1 gateway unit is meh
-once your third immortal is out, start moving across the map so you can lay down a proxy pylon in time, and rally the 4th immortal to the front.
-once your immortal #4 is started (exact same time you start moving out), start making your extra gates, and yes you do want 5 of them. I believe you can squeak in gate #2 much earlier but that shouldn't be a huge deal. The important thing is that you warp in a round of units around the time immortal #4 reaches the enemy base.
-don't make immortal #5, there is zero chance it will arrive in time to contribute and you need that money for your gateways/units.
-You should have energy for 10 chronoboosts by 8:00 (which is when immortal #4 pops out). I _think_ the correct way to boost is: 4 on probes, 1 on stalker, 4 on robo, 1 on ??? (this one i'm uncertain of, possibly use it on the forge or the robo, maybe save it to chrono your gates during the battle). I notice that if I chronoboost immortal #1 I have a bit of money problems when it's time for immortal #2, so I recommend saving the chronoboost energy for a bit, then chronoing all out once immortal #2 starts.
The build as I have it is still a tiny bit sloppy, there are moments where i'm not sure to build a zealot or a sentry, i had to cut a few seconds of gateway build time, etc etc but i'll get that sorted.
This is important: I don't play much 1v1 anymore! I mostly just theorycraft and make good builds and play team games. So I don't know when to scout, how to adapt, etc etc. For example, maybe you really do need a cannon to be safe vs 2rax. Maybe you just have to get an observer, or at least a cannon in your probes (which btw you can afford after immortal #2 starts, which should be in time for a cloaked banshee). Maybe you need to chrono immortal #1 to be safe vs rushes.
I don't really know. Better players than me can tell you how to scout/react/be safe.
Oh and one last thing: If you make only 4gates and warp in only zlots/sentries, you can afford a nexus around the time you attack, but i don't know if that's really prudent... I mean, if you still haven't expanded at 8:30 you'd better effing kill him or lose, right? Idunno, idunno.
Diamond league. Just got absolutely shit on by fast ghost build. This build is okay vs a terran who is greedy or doesn't get ghosts. Other than that, demolished by ghosts
Perhaps after immortal #1 is finished, it would be wise to chrono out an observer to look for potential terran reactions? For example, if you scout a ghost academy you could forgo making extra gates, cut immortals, andmake a robo bay instead and expand if he has made a cc? Or one could use hallucination to avoid the stop to immortal production. I might test this out when i get a chance to play later.
seems to me like if he expands, you can kill him before he has cloak/EMP if and only if you build zero observers.
If he doesn't expand, it's probably prudent to build an observer to defend vs cloak or to scout ghosts, since a no-expo t is going to reach his target tech before you attack whether you make an obs or not.
So let's see...
expansion = nonstop immortals, go kill him pre-9:00
no expo = make an obs, then: -1/1/1 allin = LOL and win -cloakshee rush = cancel immortal for another obs, cannon ur probes, probably expand -1 base ghost = 1 base colossus? -rine/tank = LOL and win -3rax = ???, but probably even-ish -2rax pressure -> expo = easy defend, and then ???, probably just kill his expo at 9:30 with 4 immortals + gate units, may as well pylon+obs into his main while you're at it -2port banshee = cannon(s), another obs, and either stargate or more gates + stalkers -some sort of drop = defend, probably abort immortals, and do some combination of expand/blink/HT/colossus -inbase CC = ???
For those having issues with ghosts you shouldn't be blindly doing this push w/o scouting, always make an obs initially from your robo so you can react accordingly:
vs 1-base ghost rush/push: if you scout the early ghost academy just switch over to colossi, spread your sentries at the top of the ramp and you generally can get out 1 colossi (w/o range) and should hold it easily.
vs 2-base: if they go fast ghost and then expand, just expand yourself and again switch to colossi when you scout the ghost academy. You shouldn't be behind because expo timing will match theirs. If they do an early expo then go for ghosts after that you have to decide if you think you can break them with a 1-base push or not depending on the timing of their ghosts.
did some more experimenting and this build has a glaring flaw:
T can just build nothing at all on the low ground, keep an eye out to see you coming, and float his expo + retreat his SCVs into his main when you push. Then he waits for some medivacs/ghosts/upgrades, ferries down, and kills you. You may have taken away his expo but he still was mining for a long time and still has all those SCVs + another CC.
This leads me to believe that we either find a way to make it work with MAX 3 immortals (to hit sooner, giving less benefit from his expansion), or we accept that this isn't viable.
This build is great if you are beneath high masters. Terrans are vastly confused by it and get angry. I've haad a ~30% win rate v terran forever (60% v Z and P) and today I've been rolling through every terran I played. The only time it was even close was when we spawned cross positions on Typhon and he went for a base race when I moved out. I never thought immortals could be this fucking good.
My two cents: One possible way to resolve the immortal/ observer dilemma could be this: assimilator first, then gateway followed up by the second assimilator and core; these are to be arranged in a sim city. Chrono the nexus four times like Keilah says, varying according to what scouting tells you. Scout after the gateway. Saturate both assimilators and pull probes off one once you have 300 gas. Research hallucination first, followed by warpgate.
Chrono out two sentries. Put probes back on gas, put down your forge. The idea is that the simcity dulls the effect a reaper has, while the sentry can take some pot shots at it (though the sentry will lose in a straight up fight). If a reaper is spotted, you could cancel the second sentry and chrono the stalker out*. Keep your scouting probe alive.
Provided things are proceeding without too much ado, chrono out a stalker, research +1 armor, plant second gateway. Once hallucination is done the sentry should have enough energy for a phoenix by around the 6 minute mark. Scout unhindered and react accordingly.
To follow hister, keep producing primarily sentries (a zealot or two is okay, but I think they are more useful when warped in right before or during the push, allowing for faster warpgate cooldown and aggression). I think the early forge+ 2 sentries is sufficient to plant one or two cannons to hold an early marine scv all in, not sure. Robo goes up after this, chrono out immortals (you should chrono out only sentries, the frequency of which I suppose will be affected by scouting information). Warpgates should be done about the same time (plant your desired number of warpgates when you can).
I would love to experiment with this with anyone; I'm a gold toss.
* I don't know how one would react to nitro reaper rushes; maybe a bunker gives you room to drop the forge a bit later for an earlier gate, and I think the phoenix should spot the reapers in time.
Possible reactions:
The phoenix can search v efficiently for proxy stargates. If you see tech labbed stargates, cut immortals and go stalkers (into blink maybe, exploiting long banshee build time). Researching tech lab, chrono out observers first.
Ghost academy: Cut immortals, go for a robo bay and chrono out rangeless colossus. Warp prism for sentries might be a good idea. Look to expo. You should know most of this in th 6-8 min gap, so the expo can be set up by forgoing the +3 extra gates you need for hister's push, going for a cannon (you have the sentries).
Haha, i just did this versus protoss and it worked. He four gated me but it failed because of the cannon and sentries. A few minutes later i slammed him with an upgraded army :D
here are a couple fairly refined versions that hit around 8:45-50 with 4 immortals, +1 armor, some gateway units and either 5 gates or 3 gates with a freshly planted nexus
Obv the 5gate version has more power in a sustained fight but the initial punch is very close to the same and I think by making a nexus you give yourself a fighting chance if the terran retreats up his ramp to the high ground. Use whichever u please.
Next up is a faster-hitting 3-immortal version, probably with just 3 gates but i'm not sure.
Nice build, I like the consistency of it. It just highlights that the game is in fact balanced; there's always a way to counter a build that's perceived as imbalanced.
im really getting sick of people adding all in stragetys to this forum, i mean anyone can do a random bo to all in and win with it, dont have to put every single strat on here
On September 18 2011 10:05 snowroller1 wrote: im really getting sick of people adding all in stragetys to this forum, i mean anyone can do a random bo to all in and win with it, dont have to put every single strat on here
All-ins are part of the game, and are considered strategy. Why wouldn't people want to see every strat?
Without all-ins you would get long-boring macro games with corners cut all the time, you need these builds to stop players from being greedy and force them to scout.
If you wait to long to attack it can be held off pretty quickly. If you're going what you feel might be slightly to late, expo behind it because you will def cripple him to.
I'm really surprised how well this works 90% of the time. I actually got called trash for doing it. Joys of diamond haters.
I tried this build against a terran going 1-1-1 and lost. This build you have 1 stalker and a bunch of sentries. His banshee harass at like 8:00 showed I was low on stalkers. He then proceeded to make 4 more banshees and skipped on tanks and rolled me.
This build, however, will roll in lower leagues because most terrans stick to whatever build they do and do not compensate based on what their opponents are doing.
On September 19 2011 12:07 aznkukuboi wrote: I tried this build against a terran going 1-1-1 and lost. This build you have 1 stalker and a bunch of sentries. His banshee harass at like 8:00 showed I was low on stalkers. He then proceeded to make 4 more banshees and skipped on tanks and rolled me.
This build, however, will roll in lower leagues because most terrans stick to whatever build they do and do not compensate based on what their opponents are doing.
I faced an identical terran, who skimped on tanks and went for more banshees BUT, I attacked too late allowing him to get 3 or so with high energy raven for pdd, completely rolled the ground army though. If he made 4 more banshees, imo the hister push was too late (banshees take forever to make): the initial push combined with a warp in of stalkers is enough to deal with around 2 banshees, cannons in your mineral line will take care of harass.
In your new BO you delay your forge, but delaying your forge means you don't have the option for an early cannon vs things like marine/SCV all-in, plus you don't have the option for going for a fast +1/+1 either. What was the reasoning for delaying your forge?
Get earlier gates (Basically opening 3 gate robo) - Use the 300 from forge+cannon on 2 gates instead, which can set you behind economically, but it's a pretty safe opening... and, well.. we're planning on all-inning ourselves anyway, right?
Hide the true build - If the terran scans/scouts your base and sees an early forge, he'll know something weird is going on. If delayed, it just looks like 3 Gate Robo, which most terrans are comfortable with.
The upgrade still finishes in time for the push even if you delay the forge, and the 3 gate robo allows an easier transition out of the Hister build if you scout something that will counter it.
Just my thoughts after messing around with the build.
On September 21 2011 06:44 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: lmao, i told you id see you on here posting about your all ins...
why dont you do a guide on how to cheese every single zerg with 3 pylons and zealot rush?
love how once someone gets to masters they think they can go write a guide on how to play....
Somebodys mad
Protoss need a strong one base build and this guide is a good one. Loads of terrans even a few in gm rely on 1 base all ins in tvp because they are horrible.
This builds legit and forces a response out of terrans so theres nothing wrong with it.
Protoss can still do enough damage to equalize AT BEST, and instantly lose at worst.
MaNa vs DeMusliM is how I see most high level TvP "1 rax FE vs Hister build" going. Protoss may force a lift of cc, do damage; but if he expos behind it super late; the terran's counterattack will overwhelm him (and mnm+first 2 medivacs will rape face)
Hister: I noticed that in the replay with cloakshees, you plant a stargate and chrono out phoenix. In a 1/1/1 defense, would it make sense to drop a gate from the build, maybe forgo additional stalkers in favour of one or two phoenix, depending on the number of banshees scouted ?(At the lower levels at which I play, I find the banshees remain after a favourable engagement and warping in stalkers makes me vulnerable to the next push, also if the terran actually scouts the immortal count, they tend to drop a tank or two for extra banshees)
This build is phenomenal. I think it is one of the few that is capable of holding almost all Terran aggression with good micro.
111? Sure Banshees will still be an issue but Immortals will tear through the tank count almost instantly and not leave themselves too exposed thanks to the range buff of 1.4. Furthermore, Zealots should be able to cleave through marines and tank the damage well.
3 rax? Tried it against someone who opened 3 rax and after an engagement on the ramp where I tore through his MM army, particularly the Marauders that literally died in seconds to the huge Immortal count, I expanded, built up my forces more to secure my advantage, went in and killed him on 2 bases.
I think it would be a good idea to post some replays (high rank only) to histers immortal build losing to 1 1 1 banshee all in. That way we can brainstorm how to counter it. At least to me it seems that variation of the 1 1 1 gives this build the most trouble
I don't know why people keep bringing up Reapers... the Stalker should pop at a normal time and stop the Reaper. I've had people try to get a fast Reaper against me probably 5-6 times now and every time my Stalker was right there ready for it.
When I have someone going Banshees against me I cut a couple of Sentries to find gas for Stalkers. 4-5 Stalkers tends to be enough to convince the Terran player that they shouldn't make more of them after their second Banshee. 4 Sentries is usually enough too, no need for 6+ of them most of the time. Against a 1-1-1 I stop at 3 Sentries to make sure my Zealot/Stalker numbers are sufficient to deal with it. I also -always- make at least 1 Observer immediately once my Robo finishes, because I think that the information about their build and unit composition is utterly crucial. I'm finding that it doesn't delay my push (I also get my Forge later and line it up so +1 armor finishes exactly as I want to push) and lets me make little changes to my unit composition to cope with whatever they've decided to go for. I think the most important information you tend to get from the Observer is confirmation of the 1-1-1 (or Banshee play at all) and/or you discover that they've gone for early Ghosts, which can be a problem sometimes depending on when they decide to push. If they've done neither of these things then you get a very clear idea of how many Sentries you will want and how many Zealot/Stalkers you'll want. And you can definitely get more than 1 Stalker by the time you push if you need them (I like this against 1-1-1/Banshees and Marine heavy play as Stalkers outrange Marines). If I feel I need them when I push or to beat Banshees, then 4-6 seems to be enough in most normal circumstances.
I don't like this build too much against 1-1-1 as if you don't win the first engagement/battle with their first army big, then you're in trouble. The Terran player can and will outproduce you after that because you're on 1 base (and no way are you going to support 5 Gates and a Robo on 1 base, nor will you really have the time needed to get an expo up and running and paying for itself by the time the second hit comes). If you're able to start delaying their push at their base and buy yourself a minute then you can usually have enough stuff to trounce the first push with good micro though. It just feels so unstable because the economy powering it doesn't let it remacro an army as fast as the Terran player can after the first push. You've got a fighting chance against 1-1-1 though, especially if you handle their first push well.
I am only plat though so I guess take all of this with a grain of salt. I've just been playing this build a lot for the past few days (probably 15-20 games so far) as Immortals are one of my favorite units, and these are the things I've been experiencing. I've made some changes to the BO as well to help it be a little more smooth (like not dropping the Forge/Cannon that early and instead grabbing a faster second and third gateway so the infrastructure is in place if needed against early pressure), and timing +1 armor and my 4th/5th gates to finish right as I push/need my first offensive warp in. Really enjoying the build though. Can't wait to play with with patch 1.4 this evening!
On September 14 2011 15:02 darkluke wrote: or you scrubs could just 1a better and use protoss as it was meant to be used... the race of retards. Now I know how good all of you worthless pricks that think they know how to play this game by playing this game as protoss are and all but just stop. if u want to play a real race play terran. when terran gets blink thors and invisible marinesand stuff that is when it's as easy to play terran. now again if u protoss kids have a problem with terran 111 just 11111A better scrubs.... duhhh??
This build is absolutely great. I love this build a lot. If you can hold off early harass from a 2-rax or an early reaper without getting too hurt it you can just walk in and steam roll the bio army once you have 3 immortals with more coming with 3gate support.
Awesome guide and the replays show the style very well. I wanted to second what some people mentioned earlier, it looks like so much fun to break through bunkers like you did with this build, terrans who fast expand against me will soon be living in fear!
I also really liked the game on tal darim, i often lose my proxy pylons / get too caught up and forget to make one, it shows how this build can still transition into a 2 base push as long as you break their army and do significant damage, and the "death push" you made, awesome sentry use (No spoilers!)
I'll repeat, the 'counter' to this build is to build nothing on the low ground, retreat everything up your ramp, and float your CC back to your main when the protoss attacks. He's not going to be able to bust your ramp, but you'll have a big mineral advantage already + still getting MULES from that second CC. Wait for EMP/+1/medivacs, ferry down, crush his army and win the game.
On September 17 2011 05:39 Soulish wrote: a high diamond protoss just tried it against me and it failed horribly. I did a 1 rax FE and it was a piece of cake holding this with 1fact pumping out siege tanks and mmm. immortals trade terribly against marines and if you're holding a position at your natural you can make 2 bunkers and camp him out. Don't see what the big fuss is about. Once he loses the immortals it's gg.
funny thing was the diamond blocked me right after in a fit of nerdrage ^^. Ender, I'm looking at you.
can you post the replay?
On September 23 2011 16:25 Keilah wrote: I'll repeat, the 'counter' to this build is to build nothing on the low ground, retreat everything up your ramp, and float your CC back to your main when the protoss attacks. He's not going to be able to bust your ramp, but you'll have a big mineral advantage already + still getting MULES from that second CC. Wait for EMP/+1/medivacs, ferry down, crush his army and win the game.
while he has an observer watching everything? can easily put down an expansion once protoss gets you on a good contain and respond accordingly to whatever you try. a lot of my games i've gotten to the terran natural and been able to forcefield their army in.
Been testing out a build based on this that includes an expansion. You can do this only when he isn't pressuring early, but if you misread and he's attacking you, you should still be able to survive and do well by cancelling your nexus. Fast robo and a chronoboosted observer should give you the info you need.
I'm fairly certain that this basic build can be crafted into a solid PvT opening able to respond appropriately to everything, including: - 2 port banshee (get a stargate, take extra gas, stop immortals, possibly build a cannon or two) -cloaked banshees (more observers, less immortals) -standard 1/1/1 with tanks (play it like this and you'll be fine, don't try to push him, just defend and it's ezmode) -ghost/rine pushes (just 1 immortal, then colossi, untested. possibly you have to cancel the expansion nexus vs 1base ghost)
If the terran just plays passive, you hit him at around 9:20 with 4 immortals, +1 armor, 5 gates, and some (forget) gateway units. Oh, and an expansion this time =P
I practiced a bunch of games vs my brother, who TBH is better than me. He beat me a bunch until I realized you really, really need to get the observer into his base to see if he's making tanks/siege/banshees/cloak/2port/ghost. Making 4 immortals isn't always good =[
here's one where I end up losing, but it was a pretty epic game anyways =) He takes advantage of my greatest weakness, multitasking/dealing with harass, eventually he breaks my expo and wins in a base race. http://drop.sc/37450
here's one where I win vs a siege/raven/banshee/3rax. We both make some fairly big errors but I'm confident that this is close to a build order win. http://drop.sc/37447
I've been using this to great success, most terrans at my level just go mm early, this just rocks everything. Been great using this, I've lost once because of not knowing how to deal with cloacked banshees. Seems like as long as you do quite a bit of damage you can still expand. You have quite a few probes anyway with this so won't be to far behind if you can't quite kill him.
you can pull it off verse zerg....I usually pressure with 2 gate (lots of zealots 4-8) to force him to get roaches. but then go into 4 immortal with armor ( i like armor cuz it adds so much survivebilty to immortal verse zerglings) add gates as you see fit and hit him....usually win at that point. with a couple full energy sentries with your immortals makes them virtually unstoppable
It works great in low leagues atleast.. was pretty frustrated with moarauders strategies before. I'm still amazed how Immortals just demolish bunkers and tanks..
i'm predicting a nerf to immortals to what they were before b/c this build is so strong :p. it even got hister to 1700 pts because he just does this build every PvT and cheeses all of his other matchups.
On October 17 2011 16:35 DustinQQ wrote: i'm predicting a nerf to immortals to what they were before b/c this build is so strong :p. it even got hister to 1700 pts because he just does this build every PvT and cheeses all of his other matchups.
I was doing alright vs terran before the patch my PvZ improved this season why my points went up .
Just lost to a protoss doing a similar build on me and I'm zerg. I scouted it and didn't even know what to do because forcefields would stop the banelings, zealots wreck the zerglings, and immortals kill spines/roaches.
Didn't want to make a new thread unless I needed to, just wondering if any other zergs have faced this.
On November 04 2011 07:02 riverkim09 wrote: I feel like this is one of those builds that are strong at first but become uselss as time goes on and ppl adapt. Like 11/11
11/11 wins a lot of games even in GSL.. its nowhere close to being useless..
On November 04 2011 07:02 riverkim09 wrote: I feel like this is one of those builds that are strong at first but become uselss as time goes on and ppl adapt. Like 11/11
11/11 wins a lot of games even in GSL.. its nowhere close to being useless..
I don't know about the 11/11 anymore. I think that other 2rax builds, like 12/14 is still viable but 11/11 just requires that the terran do too much damage to even begin to justify going 11/11
On November 04 2011 07:00 Crazypyro1 wrote: Just lost to a protoss doing a similar build on me and I'm zerg. I scouted it and didn't even know what to do because forcefields would stop the banelings, zealots wreck the zerglings, and immortals kill spines/roaches.
Didn't want to make a new thread unless I needed to, just wondering if any other zergs have faced this.
On November 04 2011 07:00 Crazypyro1 wrote: Just lost to a protoss doing a similar build on me and I'm zerg. I scouted it and didn't even know what to do because forcefields would stop the banelings, zealots wreck the zerglings, and immortals kill spines/roaches.
Didn't want to make a new thread unless I needed to, just wondering if any other zergs have faced this.
On November 04 2011 07:00 Crazypyro1 wrote: Just lost to a protoss doing a similar build on me and I'm zerg. I scouted it and didn't even know what to do because forcefields would stop the banelings, zealots wreck the zerglings, and immortals kill spines/roaches.
Didn't want to make a new thread unless I needed to, just wondering if any other zergs have faced this.
You would have to completely rush mutas which isn't exactly safe against a 1 base protoss, considering if you scouted it too early, I feel like they could easily transition into just a strong gateway push which wrecks muta rushes.
On November 04 2011 08:27 riverkim09 wrote: but if you scout that, and its easy to do so, you should rush to mutas and defend with lings
The point is the mutas come too little, too late. At least in my opinion. Its worth a shot though. Also what if they deny scouting better than the toss did in that replay? Its not exactly easy to scout before lair.
I've recently lost to this tactic a few times as well and am currently a bit boggled as to how a Zerg stops it. I had a roach army and about 5 spines that just melted to this push - even though I knew it was coming. It's very strong.
Been dabbling with the idea of ling flanks but you have to be on the ball with that because good FFs and your flank is useless. I don't think muta are a good bet because you just won't have enough, and if they decide to just spam stalkers (like a weak 4-gate) after they see muta, you're hurting badly.
It's a strong build. Definitely going to require some thought to deal with.
These replays aren't working anymore. They download, but will not start up, could you possible upload some updated replays, this seems like a really interesting build and I would love to see it in action.
The replays worked fine for me. Just used this and busted a plat Terran. What I like is that most terrans tend to produce quite a few maraders early on in case of stalkers and this just goes against their convention.
Hey guys. I know this thread is old, but I found the tutorial on Youtube and began trying out the build today. Smashed a Terran with it, but I'm in Silver, and Silver players never make Ghosts lol. Since this build first came about several things have happened that have made it better. Terrans tend to use the 1/1/1 less, EMP got nerfed and Immortals got buffed. As far as I understand, once scouted, the only real counter to this is fast Ghosts or Banshees correct?? How do you normally react to that? For Banshees you just warp Stalkers, but how do you respond to Ghosts?? Do you take your Nexus later and be even more behind (If he expanded), do you go super all in and go one base Colossus, or do you do the attack anyway and micro better since EMP is weaker than when this build was created? Around what time in game will you find out if he's going Ghosts to counter this?? I LOVE this build, I just want to get an idea of how I should respond when I start facing better players while doing it.
On July 06 2012 15:41 Havik_ wrote: Hey guys. I know this thread is old, but I found the tutorial on Youtube and began trying out the build today. Smashed a Terran with it, but I'm in Silver, and Silver players never make Ghosts lol. Since this build first came about several things have happened that have made it better. Terrans tend to use the 1/1/1 less, EMP got nerfed and Immortals got buffed. As far as I understand, once scouted, the only real counter to this is fast Ghosts or Banshees correct?? How do you normally react to that? For Banshees you just warp Stalkers, but how do you respond to Ghosts?? Do you take your Nexus later and be even more behind (If he expanded), do you go super all in and go one base Colossus, or do you do the attack anyway and micro better since EMP is weaker than when this build was created? Around what time in game will you find out if he's going Ghosts to counter this?? I LOVE this build, I just want to get an idea of how I should respond when I start facing better players while doing it.
I believe that against ghost pushes, you will need to add several cannons at your natural for defense. Since you get the forge, it's really easy and then you'll be safe.
On July 06 2012 15:41 Havik_ wrote: Hey guys. I know this thread is old, but I found the tutorial on Youtube and began trying out the build today. Smashed a Terran with it, but I'm in Silver, and Silver players never make Ghosts lol. Since this build first came about several things have happened that have made it better. Terrans tend to use the 1/1/1 less, EMP got nerfed and Immortals got buffed. As far as I understand, once scouted, the only real counter to this is fast Ghosts or Banshees correct?? How do you normally react to that? For Banshees you just warp Stalkers, but how do you respond to Ghosts?? Do you take your Nexus later and be even more behind (If he expanded), do you go super all in and go one base Colossus, or do you do the attack anyway and micro better since EMP is weaker than when this build was created? Around what time in game will you find out if he's going Ghosts to counter this?? I LOVE this build, I just want to get an idea of how I should respond when I start facing better players while doing it.
I believe that against ghost pushes, you will need to add several cannons at your natural for defense. Since you get the forge, it's really easy and then you'll be safe.
That's if he pushes, but what if I want to attack him?? If my obs gets there and sees that he's going Ghosts, just expand and tech to a normal midgame with Colossi? Is that the best response? Or should you just try and break him anyway??
EDIT: So I think the best course of action in this case would be to Expand and hit a 2 base 1/1 Colossus timing. If he doesn't go Ghost, you just walk right in and kill them, and if they do go Ghost, expand, tech to Colossi and kill them since getting the Ghosts so fast will delay medivacs, Vikings, upgrades, etc
On July 06 2012 15:41 Havik_ wrote: Hey guys. I know this thread is old, but I found the tutorial on Youtube and began trying out the build today. Smashed a Terran with it, but I'm in Silver, and Silver players never make Ghosts lol. Since this build first came about several things have happened that have made it better. Terrans tend to use the 1/1/1 less, EMP got nerfed and Immortals got buffed. As far as I understand, once scouted, the only real counter to this is fast Ghosts or Banshees correct?? How do you normally react to that? For Banshees you just warp Stalkers, but how do you respond to Ghosts?? Do you take your Nexus later and be even more behind (If he expanded), do you go super all in and go one base Colossus, or do you do the attack anyway and micro better since EMP is weaker than when this build was created? Around what time in game will you find out if he's going Ghosts to counter this?? I LOVE this build, I just want to get an idea of how I should respond when I start facing better players while doing it.
Fast ghosts and banshees aren't the only counter. If he goes mass marines/no marauders it can be held off pretty easily by him since marines do well against immortals. You can still have a chance of winning but your FFs would have to be really good.
Cut me some slack if this has been addressed as there are >300 comments XO.
Why cut warp gate for such a long time vserus early pressures (both vs the marine/scv and the marine thor all in? The gas lines up pretty well given when you are taking the geysers, but it seems starting warp gate a little earlier would only delay either +1armor, an immortal or a sentry by ~15 seconds at the most.
I acknowledge that, given you aren't attacking until ~9 minute mark, you don't need warp gates for a while anyway, so its a good thing to cut in a tight spot. It just seems that having it start earlier may allow you to build 1 less cannon/be a little safer against fast pressures etc.
I won't be insulted if you simply quote a previous response to this same question. LIke the look of this, thanks for writing/keeping up with it.
And haha the thor all-in kid hates life so much in that game.
EPT
but I'm posting to say I LOVED those replays. For some reason they were absolutely hilarious. Especially the cannon and the "go home son"!![[image loading]](http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9926299.jpg)
