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Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair
hi guys here is my second zerg vs protoss guide except this will be a specific build that I have been doing in zvp sense I saw losira/nestea do it in the last gsl (not the august/september one). I love macro oriented play it is how I love to play (anyone who watches my stream knows this or any of my replay packs). While I am not a very creative player, I can see ideas and make slight adjustments that I like and that is what I did when I saw losira/nestea do this style of play  .
So pretty much I thank those high level zergs who can come up with builds I like that I can just make slight adjustments to fit what I like  .
my other guides
zerg vs zerg guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583)
Zerg vs Protoss overall guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
I have been messing with it sense I saw them do it and have got it to work very well for me and finding it so much stronger then any other zvp style I have tried. I have been messing around with it for at least a month now and as I said have finally got my timings and stuff to where I want them and decided its time to write the guide.
I am not updating the other zvp guide as this is a different style and the other guide is a more over view of zvp strategies. There will be a good amount of replays, and most of them will come from the Korean server as that is where most of my games are played but there will be 1-2 games from NA that I did in the zotac tournament last Saturday (august 20'th).
Overview
+ Show Spoiler +
Against a forge fast expand build you should have a third by about 20 supply.
Against 3 gate expand you should take a third either right when he starts his expo (which can be risky if he cancels and is really 4 gating) or you can take your 3rd when his expo finishes, when you start lair, when you feel you can do it. I have been doing it when he starts his expansion, and if he cancels his expo I will cancel my third and make pure units to hold off a 4 gate canceled nexus.
So the point of this build is to pretty much not go lair until about 8-8:30 minutes. That is when you start it. This gives you a really good economy and amazing production. Of course there are variations depending on what you see, and what your protoss opponent is doing.
This is great if your protoss opponent decides to 6-7 gate all in as you really can produce so much more then a "normal" zvp build where you get a decently fast lair. This is a great way to get like I have said, a very good economy to produce a ton of units and can put pressure on him if he decides to take a greedy third.
You can go into whatever tech path you wish whether that be muta's, infestors, ling/bane, etc. I will put what I personally prefer to do, but again you can do pretty much any unit composition you want.
Basic build order
9 - overlord
15 - pool/hatch (your preference)
18-19 - gas (your choice, normally after spawning pool finishes is my timing)
leave only 1 guy on gas after you start metabolic boost
18-21 - third base (only vs forge expand, can be put down after protoss starts his natural read overview for a more detailed view)
27-35 - Roach warren (this is very dependent on if he is 3 gate fe'ing/4gate if he forge fast expands make it same time you start lair)
6:15-6:20 - make an evo chamber
7:15-7:45 - start +1 carapace
7:30-7:45 - put both drones back on gas, Get your 2nd gas at main, + 1 at natural
8:00-8:30 - Go lair
Overview of why I do it this way
+ Show Spoiler +Ok so that's the basic build order. Now to explain some things. For starters I put the time in the build order because I can't remember the supply, and many things can happen to make the supply different like if he does pressure and you lose say 1-2 drones or you lose some lings, can mess up so just put the time I do stuff.
Ok so my first explanation is the ling speed, you want to get ling speed but not rush for it. You just want it to really deny scouting, or if he happens to be 4 gating you will have roaches and speedlings. If he is doing some blink stalker all in you have speedlings and can make roaches. Speedlings are also good to look for sneaky pylons and what not.
The roach warren timing can be delayed if he forge fast expands (like you can get it at like 7-8 minutes if you want).
The evo chamber is for possible DT/Voidray/Phoenix. If he forge fast expands and my sacrificial overlord see's nothing I well blindly make spore crawlers. You get a lot of minerals with this build so again if you lose it will not be because you made a spore at each base. If I see voidray/phoenix after I blindly make 1 at each base I will make another 1 at each base.
If he 3 gate expands and I see you know 5-6 sentries you know he's not fast teching to dt's or void rays so then I won't make spores.
I get the +1 carapace because this effects both roaches and lings. These 2 are the core unit for awhile so why not have both be affected by an upgrade rather then just one of them. If you dislike this you can do melee or ranged that is of course your choice.
My Transition
+ Show Spoiler +So after lair tech finishes I get roach speed, +2 carapace and start +1 melee normally, get an infestation pit. You should be able to afford getting a macro hatch while going to lair so do that as well. I then go roach/ling/infestors for awhile and if I can't kill him due to him successfully defending, then I will tech to hive and get broodlords. I will normally get a hydra den so that I can add in hydra's if I see he is making void rays to try to counter broodlords. If the game goes long enough and he's going stalker/colossi I'll add in ultra's with the broodlords and infestors. That is my main strategy. Even with the infestor nerf, I do not believe it well be that bad at all and from what I saw from people doing the statistics, the patch nerf won't affect this at all (well ultra's come out faster ). I get carapace/melee upgrades as it affects broodlings and of course ultra's as well.
Replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?cdc0ty8jcp39kw8 (blade vs obsidian)
Analysis: Shakuras plateau, he forge fast expands and takes a fast third, showcases the build vs Forge Fast Expand.
http://www.mediafire.com/?bsitlq372qtkfdb (Blade vs oGsTheWind)
Analysis: Showcases the build vs another forge fast expand oh shattered temple. This game is a bit long but showcases how many drones I get and how fast (believe I had 70 by 9 minutes).
http://www.mediafire.com/?162ipbhlycl4www (Blade vs RGNPerfect)
Analysis: This showcases the build vs Forge Fast Expand on taldarim where he 9 gate all ins. I have 64 drones at 9 minutes, make a bad engagement but due to my good economy can still hold. If I hadn't been cocky with my army early I could have held this a lot easier so remember that!
http://www.mediafire.com/?mxm1bdftbpvgjgy (Blade vs SoulMvP)
Analysis: I don't know if this guy is actually in MVP I doubt it so don't think thats why I chose this game. This game showcases this build vs a blink stalker all in on taldarim. Showcases the amount of spines I can make while producing units to eventually hold this off.
http://www.mediafire.com/?u3i5p28hjheqqhp (Blade vs korean name)
Analysis: He goes heavy phoenixes, cross positions taldarim, he forge fast expands and then proceeds to go all in with mostly blink stalkers with the phoenixes.
http://www.mediafire.com/?77qyozv07156t51 (Blade vs winStorm)
Analysis: He goes voidray expand/3 gate. He goes fast air but this shows the build vs a non forge fast expand map.
If I get requests I will add more 3 gate expand replays I just haven't faced that much at all recently, mainly forge FE's.
http://www.mediafire.com/?i9hpugjl67lnoxs (Blade vs korean name)
analysis: He goes 1 gate expand vs my hatch first into 3 gate stargate. He kills my third, but I have a lot of minerals so thats fine. This showcases the build vs a non forge fast expand.
http://www.mediafire.com/?g68v3nl54sexdnx
analysis: Cannon rush!
http://www.mediafire.com/?2te7h5nuhqnznqz
2 forge/zealot cannon rushes and a long macro game. 3 replays.
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Seeing how the IM team has so much success with this build, I'd gladly try it out. However, after watching coca vs Huk on Xelnaga caverns g2, I think his fast lair + bane drop was really creative and strong. As a zerg player, I'm really tempted to try it because there seems to be no counter to his build except for the timing pushes protoss makes. Thoughts on it?
Thanks for the replays ^_^
btw loving your guides, improved my play a lot.
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Blade, i feel like making you a fanclub. Your Zerg guides are amazing. Bonus: You're the only non featured streamer i watch. Anyway, that's enough ass-kissing from me.
Awesome post as always. Gonna go watch replays. thanks!
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On August 27 2011 17:26 Jaxtyk wrote:
Seeing how the IM team has so much success with this build, I'd gladly try it out. However, after watching coca vs Huk on Xelnaga caverns g2, I think his fast lair + bane drop was really creative and strong. As a zerg player, I'm really tempted to try it because there seems to be no counter to his build except for the timing pushes protoss makes. Thoughts on it?
Thanks for the replays ^_^
btw loving your guides, improved my play a lot.
Not trying to be a dick, but did you watch the same game as I did? The game where Huk lost to coca on xelnaga had little to do with coca's build being 'unbeatable'. Huk lost like literally 11 sentries going in with an overaggressive little push when he got ling surrounded outside of coca's natural. That's 1100 gas gone for a handful of lings, any protoss would lose to the baneling drops that followed such a heavy loss. Don't get me wrong, the build coca chose enabled him to get the ling surround and then bling drop, my point is simply that it seemed so effective only due to huk playing aggressively instead of keeping his sentries at home. The guide that blade has typed up here is a far less gimmicky build and will help you learn mechanics and a really solid and scary way to play zvp, Nestea and Losira wouldn't favor a similar style if it didn't work extremely well.
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On August 27 2011 17:39 RabidSeagull wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 17:26 Jaxtyk wrote:
Seeing how the IM team has so much success with this build, I'd gladly try it out. However, after watching coca vs Huk on Xelnaga caverns g2, I think his fast lair + bane drop was really creative and strong. As a zerg player, I'm really tempted to try it because there seems to be no counter to his build except for the timing pushes protoss makes. Thoughts on it?
Thanks for the replays ^_^
btw loving your guides, improved my play a lot. Not trying to be a dick, but did you watch the same game as I did? The game where Huk lost to coca on xelnaga had little to do with coca's build being 'unbeatable'. Huk lost like literally 11 sentries going in with an overaggressive little push when he got ling surrounded outside of coca's natural. That's 1100 gas gone for a handful of lings, any protoss would lose to the baneling drops that followed such a heavy loss. Don't get me wrong, the build coca chose enabled him to get the ling surround and then bling drop, my point is simply that it seemed so effective only due to huk playing aggressively instead of keeping his sentries at home. The guide that blade has typed up here is a far less gimmicky build and will help you learn mechanics and a really solid and scary way to play zvp, Nestea and Losira wouldn't favor a similar style if it didn't work extremely well.
Coca intended to be aggressive from the start. Isn't that why he got a lair so fast? And I'm sure you know that sentries melt to banes as well as zealots. Say HuK had played defensive with his 11 sentries back home and warped in a couple of zealots. How would things be different?
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Hmmm.. alright I'll question a couple of things here.
First of all, the fast Roach Warren. Now I know you say that this depends on what you scout ( personally I never get a Roach warren before my evolution chamber, even after my lair in case he is forge expanding ) but still. If you want to do a roach-ling allin timing on his natural if he is 3gate expanding, this is all neat. But I preffer to go for a lot of zerglings to slip between his sentries and punish mistakes that way rather than investing in gas-costing roaches ( which will delay my upgrades and other tech if I make them this early ). In my personal experience, I would only go for a Roach warren that fast if I knew he was going for a 4 gate.
Secondly, the +1 carapace. You start it too late to counter a 4 gate, but its probably in time to be helpful in defending a +1 ground attack 6+ gate all in. But in other cases, the carapace won't actually help your zerglings much. The main damage dealers to zerglings are zealots, which take them out in 3 shots without any upgrades. But even if you get a +1 carapace upgrade, they still get 3 shotted. If stalkers are shooting at your zerglings and his zealots are attacking your roaches, you will win regardless of that upgrade because roaches can kite the zealots. So it will only be beneficial if you are attacking into zealots that happen to be +1 attack with zerglings. If you want to be aggressive with your play but you have gotten an +1 range or a +1 melee upgrade before your carapace upgrade, you can be MUCH more cost-efficient in your engagements. I like the upgrade, but not before any offensive upgrades because it doesn't open any timings and it is only really great against a 6gate +1 all in ( which it will do absolutely great against, no doubt ).
Lastly, you say you take out 2 drones out of gas, which means you won't have enough gas to get a ton of roaches out in the odd case of a 4 gate. It also means that your carapace upgrade will be delayed by a TON if you have to build roaches. So it would actually be beneficial to your opponent to attack you now, force a few roaches and pull back knowing that he delayed your tech for some time. I would leave 2 drones in gas and get your evolution chamber up before your Roach warren gets built. This speeds up the upgrade, strengthening your midgame, while the slightly delayed Roach warren will be in time to slowly but surely defend against a 4 gate all-in.
Just my two cents.
Edit: Whoops, got two paragraphs switched around.
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On August 27 2011 17:57 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Hmmm.. alright I'll question a couple of things here.
First of all, the fast Roach Warren. Now I know you say that this depends on what you scout ( personally I never get a Roach warren before my evolution chamber, even after my lair in case he is forge expanding ) but still. If you want to do a roach-ling allin timing on his natural if he is 3gate expanding, this is all neat. But I preffer to go for a lot of zerglings to slip between his sentries and punish mistakes that way rather than investing in gas-costing roaches ( which will delay my upgrades and other tech if I make them this early ). In my personal experience, I would only go for a Roach warren that fast if I knew he was going for a 4 gate.
Lastly, you say you take out 2 drones out of gas, which means you won't have enough gas to get a ton of roaches out in the odd case of a 4 gate. It also means that your carapace upgrade will be delayed by a TON if you have to build roaches. So it would actually be beneficial to your opponent to attack you now, force a few roaches and pull back knowing that he delayed your tech for some time. I would leave 2 drones in gas and get your evolution chamber up before your Roach warren gets built. This speeds up the upgrade, strengthening your midgame, while the slightly delayed Roach warren will be in time to slowly but surely defend against a 4 gate all-in.
Just my two cents.
Secondly, the +1 carapace. You start it too late to counter a 4 gate, but its probably in time to be helpful in defending a +1 ground attack 6+ gate all in. But in other cases, the carapace won't actually help your zerglings much. The main damage dealers to zerglings are zealots, which take them out in 3 shots without any upgrades. But even if you get a +1 carapace upgrade, they still get 3 shotted. If stalkers are shooting at your zerglings and his zealots are attacking your roaches, you will win regardless of that upgrade because roaches can kite the zealots. So it will only be beneficial if you are attacking into zealots that happen to be +1 attack with zerglings. If you want to be aggressive with your play but you have gotten an +1 range or a +1 melee upgrade before your carapace upgrade, you can be MUCH more cost-efficient in your engagements. I like the upgrade, but not before any offensive upgrades because it doesn't open any timings and it is only really great against a 6gate +1 all in ( which it will do absolutely great against, no doubt ).
The roach warren timing I do is only vs 3 gate expand (or possible 4 gate). I'll explain why I think this is way superior to just lings. If you are droning and he pushes out and you are only making lings, you are dead. The 3 gate expand into 4-5 gate pressure will kill you (this comes at about 7 minutes I believe).
Sure he can send an army like he's going to attack to force roaches, but the same would be said to a player making lings except you will be making more then a few lings as lings are very larva inefficient so the result is the same.
also if he does a 3 gate expo, but moves out with his army and you are droning again, lings are not very larva efficient. This is why I prefer roaches as roaches are much stronger and don't require as much larva. This is why (imo) this is way superior to stasying pure ling as you have to blindly make lings which could easily be drones.
I take 2 guys out of gas mainly vs forge FE, vs 3 gate (until I see the expansion) I will keep 2 on for a little bit and take 1 out most of the time unless I just have a feeling he's going to do an attack.
the +1 carapace is not meant to come before 4 gate. Never said it was supposed to I just prefer it. This build isn't meant to be aggressive early, it can be later but mainly if he's taking a greedy third, you don't want to attack until infestors are out (which your +2 carapace will be almost done by the time you are going to attack if you are keeping up on upgrades).
Also unless the protoss is map hacking or something there is no way he'll know if you are only keeping 1 drone on gas or not even with taking a fast third if he Forge fast expands. That would be a risky thing to assume and there's no way he will scout that until hallucination finishes or he gets an obs out (which by then you will have started lair and already mining gas).
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On August 27 2011 18:05 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 17:57 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Hmmm.. alright I'll question a couple of things here.
First of all, the fast Roach Warren. Now I know you say that this depends on what you scout ( personally I never get a Roach warren before my evolution chamber, even after my lair in case he is forge expanding ) but still. If you want to do a roach-ling allin timing on his natural if he is 3gate expanding, this is all neat. But I preffer to go for a lot of zerglings to slip between his sentries and punish mistakes that way rather than investing in gas-costing roaches ( which will delay my upgrades and other tech if I make them this early ). In my personal experience, I would only go for a Roach warren that fast if I knew he was going for a 4 gate.
Lastly, you say you take out 2 drones out of gas, which means you won't have enough gas to get a ton of roaches out in the odd case of a 4 gate. It also means that your carapace upgrade will be delayed by a TON if you have to build roaches. So it would actually be beneficial to your opponent to attack you now, force a few roaches and pull back knowing that he delayed your tech for some time. I would leave 2 drones in gas and get your evolution chamber up before your Roach warren gets built. This speeds up the upgrade, strengthening your midgame, while the slightly delayed Roach warren will be in time to slowly but surely defend against a 4 gate all-in.
Just my two cents.
Secondly, the +1 carapace. You start it too late to counter a 4 gate, but its probably in time to be helpful in defending a +1 ground attack 6+ gate all in. But in other cases, the carapace won't actually help your zerglings much. The main damage dealers to zerglings are zealots, which take them out in 3 shots without any upgrades. But even if you get a +1 carapace upgrade, they still get 3 shotted. If stalkers are shooting at your zerglings and his zealots are attacking your roaches, you will win regardless of that upgrade because roaches can kite the zealots. So it will only be beneficial if you are attacking into zealots that happen to be +1 attack with zerglings. If you want to be aggressive with your play but you have gotten an +1 range or a +1 melee upgrade before your carapace upgrade, you can be MUCH more cost-efficient in your engagements. I like the upgrade, but not before any offensive upgrades because it doesn't open any timings and it is only really great against a 6gate +1 all in ( which it will do absolutely great against, no doubt ). The roach warren timing I do is only vs 3 gate expand (or possible 4 gate). I'll explain why I think this is way superior to just lings. If you are droning and he pushes out and you are only making lings, you are dead. The 3 gate expand into 4-5 gate pressure will kill you (this comes at about 7 minutes I believe). Sure he can send an army like he's going to attack to force roaches, but the same would be said to a player making lings except you will be making more then a few lings as lings are very larva inefficient so the result is the same. also if he does a 3 gate expo, but moves out with his army and you are droning again, lings are not very larva efficient. This is why I prefer roaches as roaches are much stronger and don't require as much larva. This is why (imo) this is way superior to stasying pure ling as you have to blindly make lings which could easily be drones. I take 2 guys out of gas mainly vs forge FE, vs 3 gate (until I see the expansion) I will keep 2 on for a little bit and take 1 out most of the time unless I just have a feeling he's going to do an attack. the +1 carapace is not meant to come before 4 gate. Never said it was supposed to I just prefer it. This build isn't meant to be aggressive early, it can be later but mainly if he's taking a greedy third, you don't want to attack until infestors are out (which your +2 carapace will be almost done by the time you are going to attack if you are keeping up on upgrades). Also unless the protoss is map hacking or something there is no way he'll know if you are only keeping 1 drone on gas or not even with taking a fast third if he Forge fast expands. That would be a risky thing to assume and there's no way he will scout that until hallucination finishes or he gets an obs out (which by then you will have started lair and already mining gas).
Fair enough, I can see why you would want to get out that Roach warren if you are going for larvae efficiency. And thanks for the explanation of the choice between 1 drone or two drones on gas depending on what you scout.
My own ZvP play relies heavily on aggression in the early and the midgame. And as such I prefer a lot of lings because they can attempt to deny the natural in the case that he is trying for a greedy 1gate expand or mismicros with his forcefields and zealots. Because delaying or denying the natural for the protoss will QUICKLY make the game spiral out of his control. With two queens up at my natural and main I can also drone up a lot behind the attack ( and get a proportionate amount of drones vs units ) because I can scout everything his army consists of and can base my future decisions on that.
This play completely turns around if I scout a forge fast expand ( which I generally find a much harder to deal with opening if he decides to turtle up to a third base because I can't get my lings to pressure him much. ) but in either case, a quicker +2 melee or +2 range in the midgame will work wonders against any 6gate pressure afterwards where you really need roaches to defend.
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Thanks for the guide. Just what I need for my ZvP as it hasn't been to good lately.
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Could you please upload more reps against non-forge expand when you get them?
Also, with this late lair if he goes dts or even stargate with his expo (1-2 gate stargate expo etc.) he will be able to deny your third because you have late lair...what do you do in this case?
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When do you take ur 3rd.
That is my single question.
I have also been messing around with this build a bit and I have been trying to do 4 hatch (3 bases, 1 macro) before lair while blindly throw up spine/spores, but the timing feels awkward. So when do you take a 3rd?
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I see no reason not to take your third instead of throwing down a macro hatch when you tech lair. This is of course map dependant, but in most cases protoss cant really threaten a roachling army with just pure gateway units, so you should be safe to expand.
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Many many thanks for this
i was wondering; i saw you start lair at about 8minutes, which is when a lot of timing pushes happen. If you see some kind of strong timing coming would you delay lair for more units, or do you feel the benefits of lair tech are still necessary at that point?
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Blade you're a boss and I love your guides. But PLEASE start using a site like drop.sc or sc2rep.com for your replays! Downloading <1mb files from mediafire one a time is such a bitch T_T Alternatively put them in a zip file with names that clearly tie them to your analysis. Thanks a lot for the insight though! Will definitely try using this in the next few days <3
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I do think this is likely the correct overall way to play vs FFE's, but I am not sure so sure vs. other builds. I think the late Lair is particularly good because there is nothing you "need" to stop the 9:30-10 6/7/9 gate all ins, 7:30 DTs, or 8 min VR/Phoenix.
I want to talk about +1 armor though... The problem is this: It ONLY helps Lings vs Zealots in a noticeable way and ONLY if they get +1. Sure it will improve Ling vs Sentry dmg a bit, but come on, that is not a concern even with +1 Protoss Attack. +1 Melee, however, ALWAYS helps Lings vs everything and will stack in faster +3 Melee for BLs or Ultras. +1 Missile is awesome if you want to transition Ling Roach to Roach Infestor Hydra against the standard Death Ball.
Furthermore, if you do NOT start the upgrade for any Zerg Level 1 +1 BEFORE 7 minutes it will NOT finish in time for a nice crisp 6 gate +1, or 7 gate or anything except the delayed Blink Stalker push or a badly executed big push. Cutting 50 gas off of the upgrade cost means the upgrade can start 28 in game seconds sooner! Which means your 7:15 upgrade is not a 6:50 upgrade and WILL finish in time almost no matter what.
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United States8476 Posts
Just a few spelling mistakes I'd like to point out.
Intro:
Idea's should be ideas
Overview:
patch should be path
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Update:
If you start your gas at 3 min, and at 100 gas you pull out 2 guys, and build an Evo chamber at 6 minutes, you will have 100 gas at 6:45 for +1 Missile/Melee. Lingspeed finishes at 6:15, good for 4 gates, and +1 finishes just before 9:30.
This gas timing accounts for both 4 gate and 6 gate/similar idea pushes, while allowing you money for a 3rd hatch around 7 minutes, HUGE creep spread (both of your 2 Queens can put down Tumors with first 25 energy).
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From what I read in your post, you didn't go over when you take your thirds. Now I do know if you play this style against FFE you're suppose to take a third right before your natural hatch finishes. But what's the timing for your third against 3 gate expos?
It'd be nice to see a little note in your post of when that third goes up.
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On August 27 2011 18:24 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
Could you please upload more reps against non-forge expand when you get them?
Also, with this late lair if he goes dts or even stargate with his expo (1-2 gate stargate expo etc.) he will be able to deny your third because you have late lair...what do you do in this case?
Yeah I well when I face some, really I am surprised lately at how rare i play that build. I almost only play against Forge expand now of days so I'll surely do that .
On August 27 2011 18:34 evanthebouncy! wrote:
When do you take ur 3rd.
That is my single question.
I have also been messing around with this build a bit and I have been trying to do 4 hatch (3 bases, 1 macro) before lair while blindly throw up spine/spores, but the timing feels awkward. So when do you take a 3rd?
I guess I did forget to mention the third. Against forge expand you should have a third by 20 supply about. I always get my third as fast as I can if I see forge expand.
vs 3 gate expand the third timing can go down either right when he starts his expansion (which can be risky if he cancels and 4 gates), or after you start lair. I do normally take my third pretty fast against 3 gate expo unless he opens 1 base void rays then you have to kind of delay till lair (or if you kill his voidray and he never made another).
I'll add it into the OP thanks for that!
On August 27 2011 19:06 Zrana wrote:Many many thanks for this i was wondering; i saw you start lair at about 8minutes, which is when a lot of timing pushes happen. If you see some kind of strong timing coming would you delay lair for more units, or do you feel the benefits of lair tech are still necessary at that point?
Well normally the timing attacks happen at about 8:45-9 minutes I believe when the attacks actually start. So your lair should be almost done or done by the time he does attack. But if he is doing that super fast 5-6 gate push after forge expand (which I believe hits at about 7:30-8 minutes) then yes I would delay lair to make more units. Even though you could probably still afford the 150/100 and hold just fine.
On August 27 2011 19:45 igLeX wrote:
Blade you're a boss and I love your guides. But PLEASE start using a site like drop.sc or sc2rep.com for your replays! Downloading <1mb files from mediafire one a time is such a bitch T_T Alternatively put them in a zip file with names that clearly tie them to your analysis. Thanks a lot for the insight though! Will definitely try using this in the next few days <3
Thanks, I can do that never used either of the sites drop.sc or sc2rep.com I can't ever figure out how to upload or it never shows up.
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Do you think that if a player is still learning how to play Zerg (im a plat player that switched to Z like a week ago and am still having some trouble even with fundamentals) that this build would be better to use than that Destiny timing attack into double expand?
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On August 28 2011 04:17 Sithelin123 wrote:
Do you think that if a player is still learning how to play Zerg (im a plat player that switched to Z like a week ago and am still having some trouble even with fundamentals) that this build would be better to use than that Destiny timing attack into double expand?
I don't know destiny's build as I don't pay attention to him, but if you are just learning zerg I would try learning a macro oriented build whether thats this build or some other build.
You will probably lose more doing this build as games are longer then if you do that whatever destiny's timing attack is. I imagine its an attack that can win the game, but if it fails you are probably far behind even though double expanding but again don't know much about it so can't comment to much on it .
But to work on macro, larva injects and stuff yes this build would be good to work on some of those fundamentals.
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I think this build also looks safer to me because of the roach warren so I think I might start using it. Destiny's ling/infestor basically auto-loses to 6 gate, at least at my skill level. Its impossible to hold off for me with just lings and spines and still not get far behind.
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Great write up, but why do you discourage lings against a 3 gate push? The lings seem to offer great map control and can even discourage that push.
and whats the name of your stream? blade5555?
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On August 28 2011 04:33 Sithelin123 wrote:
I think this build also looks safer to me because of the roach warren so I think I might start using it. Destiny's ling/infestor basically auto-loses to 6 gate, at least at my skill level. Its impossible to hold off for me with just lings and spines and still not get far behind.
Oh yeah its not very possible unless you make like a ton of spines to hold 6 gate all in with just lings. I also find roach/infestor way way stronger then ling/infestor ^^.
On August 28 2011 05:01 sgtjimmy wrote:
Great write up, but why do you discourage lings against a 3 gate push? The lings seem to offer great map control and can even discourage that push.
and whats the name of your stream? blade5555?
yeah same as my username when streaming or you can search Tl for "blade stream" to get the direct stream which has vods of all my play :p.
thanks for the feedback guys and kind comments ^^.
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Bumping this to let people know about the new replay.
http://www.mediafire.com/?i9hpugjl67lnoxs
Its a 3 gate expand and all that. Only 3 gate expo I have faced today out of the 8 zvp's i played or something like that so enjoy!
I"ll start using a different site eventually but to lazy to right now as I don't have to register to upload this
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Solid guide. Many strong Z players still do not do safe builds to take an early 3rd base, even at high masters GM level.
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The korean you played on Backwater Gulch is NsPSP from heoseo. The other one means something like "kill you with one hand".
I have a question not related to your guide, but it's about your inject method. Why do you not bind your queens? I noticed Nestea does the same thing. Can you explain to me why this is and why you believe it to be superior to binding queens to 5/6/7 or binding them all on the same key?
My other question (and I read your zvp guide as well) is how do you have the balls to always 15hatch vs protoss? Your game on tal'darim showed some interesting micro with the drone on hold position at the choke and another chasing. Do you feel like given all this as a precautionary response to what protoss might or might not do, that it's still worth it to hatch first instead of say, 15pool 16hatch?
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Thanks very much for the guide and replays blade. They really help out, especially for myself who switched from Protoss to Zerg and is still trying to learn macro orientated builds to help improve mechanics. I have 1 question though, it's kind of a what if question but I just want to hear your opinion.
With the new immortal 6 range coming out in the new patch, I'm starting to envision a lot of zealot/immortal timing attacks from Protoss when the patch comes out. The Immortals will be at a safer distance and will not able to be picked off by roaches as easy with the zealot front imo. The zealots will wreck Zerglings while the immortals pick at the roaches from behind the zealots. I know know as Zerg were used to dealing with 5-7 gate timing attacks which, ling/roach can hold off but I'm worried about zealot/Immortal timing attacks. Do you think your build with a slow lair tech, can adapt to fend off such an attack with roach/ling? Or am I just over speculating the whole situation and not seeing the timings very clear.
Thanks again!
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I was watching the mlg yesterday, and a protoss did a heavy double stargate VR build against a zerg. What worries me is that scouting information is quite hard to get hold of before lair tech, and with a delayed lair a double stargate build could cause this build real trouble.
Do you think that this 2xstargate stuff could be dealt with by a delayed lair build? Is it just better slowverlord saccing neeeded, or if this stargate play becomes popular will we just have to change it up to get lair quicker to see what's going on?
In reply to SlightReturn, imo immo/zealot pushes should be reasonably easy to handle with roach/ling. The immos and zeals will naturally separate from each other and then all you have to do is come in from the back with lings and take out the immortals. If the toss chooses to stay balled up then it's just the same as pre-patch and roaches can shoot over the heads of the zealots at the immortals.
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blade many thanks for the thorough guide! <3 its going to help many zergs struggling with protoss.
What about 3 gate expand to 6 gate timings? Is it possible to hold without the upgrades for roaches (burrow, speed) ?
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On August 28 2011 20:19 michaelhasanalias wrote:
The korean you played on Backwater Gulch is NsPSP from heoseo. The other one means something like "kill you with one hand".
I have a question not related to your guide, but it's about your inject method. Why do you not bind your queens? I noticed Nestea does the same thing. Can you explain to me why this is and why you believe it to be superior to binding queens to 5/6/7 or binding them all on the same key?
My other question (and I read your zvp guide as well) is how do you have the balls to always 15hatch vs protoss? Your game on tal'darim showed some interesting micro with the drone on hold position at the choke and another chasing. Do you feel like given all this as a precautionary response to what protoss might or might not do, that it's still worth it to hatch first instead of say, 15pool 16hatch?
ah thanks for the translation of the names .
Hi, heh I get that while streaming alot on why I don't bind keys.
Part of it is a habbit from bw where you always had to hotkey individual hatcheries. I really prefer this method because when I want to jump to a hatch, I want to jump to it not the queen. I feel I have more control over what I do rather then pressing the queen hotkey and then pressing backspace vvvvv. I don't like it just something I don't like to do at all.
I know DRG does it as well I believe and I imagine they have the same reasoning, habbit from bw, and you just have more control to where you want your camera to be. Most players prefer the queen method obviously but I am one who doesn't as reasons explained.
I practiced with a couple protosses (vvvtime being one) and had them literally cannon rush me like 20 times in a row. It is possible to hold contrary to popular belief but you really do have to hold correctly. If you mess up a little bit its instant loss. I do have cannon rushes that were used against me recently that I well upload for those curious on ones that actually do. but I feel its fine, in a tournament bo1 situation I would never hatch first, if it was a player like WBC who only cannon rushes I wouldn't do it either.
but overall I find its worth it, but if I see a probe at all I 15 pool, if I see no probe I hatch first on most maps ^^.
On August 28 2011 21:32 SlightReturn wrote:
Thanks very much for the guide and replays blade. They really help out, especially for myself who switched from Protoss to Zerg and is still trying to learn macro orientated builds to help improve mechanics. I have 1 question though, it's kind of a what if question but I just want to hear your opinion.
With the new immortal 6 range coming out in the new patch, I'm starting to envision a lot of zealot/immortal timing attacks from Protoss when the patch comes out. The Immortals will be at a safer distance and will not able to be picked off by roaches as easy with the zealot front imo. The zealots will wreck Zerglings while the immortals pick at the roaches from behind the zealots. I know know as Zerg were used to dealing with 5-7 gate timing attacks which, ling/roach can hold off but I'm worried about zealot/Immortal timing attacks. Do you think your build with a slow lair tech, can adapt to fend off such an attack with roach/ling? Or am I just over speculating the whole situation and not seeing the timings very clear.
Thanks again!
The short answer is, yes you will be able to hold off a zealot/immortal timing attack with just roach/ling. I mean zealots really are terrible vs mass roaches, and with a bunch of lings you can surround the immortals. This is the least of my worries in terms of the immortal buff. But that is just speculating its possible it could but I really don't see how as of right now.
On August 28 2011 22:03 Zrana wrote:
I was watching the mlg yesterday, and a protoss did a heavy double stargate VR build against a zerg. What worries me is that scouting information is quite hard to get hold of before lair tech, and with a delayed lair a double stargate build could cause this build real trouble.
Do you think that this 2xstargate stuff could be dealt with by a delayed lair build? Is it just better slowverlord saccing neeeded, or if this stargate play becomes popular will we just have to change it up to get lair quicker to see what's going on?
In reply to SlightReturn, imo immo/zealot pushes should be reasonably easy to handle with roach/ling. The immos and zeals will naturally separate from each other and then all you have to do is come in from the back with lings and take out the immortals. If the toss chooses to stay balled up then it's just the same as pre-patch and roaches can shoot over the heads of the zealots at the immortals.
Yes it can be dealt with by delayed lair, yes you have to sacrifice a slow overlord. If you can't for whatever reason then you need to build blind spores at least 1 at each base. You get a ton of minerals so this shouldn't be a big deal as stargate play you see the air by about 7:30 I think the timing is so you should be prepared no matter what. Off of a forge FE I face some sort of stargate play 9 times out of 10.
On August 29 2011 00:10 Bleez wrote:
blade many thanks for the thorough guide! <3 its going to help many zergs struggling with protoss.
What about 3 gate expand to 6 gate timings? Is it possible to hold without the upgrades for roaches (burrow, speed) ?
Yes it is possible to hold without the upgrades of speed/burrow. But you do want to try to engage in a more open choke so that FF's don't just roll through you.
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Thanks a lot blade, I love your guides so far and I'm going to start trying this build tomorrow. Definitely going to start tuning into your stream as much as possible.
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i do this style a lot, but not on maps with rocks covering the close third. i was wondering how you deal with air on taldarim and shattered? in one of the games on tda, i see you took the far one next to your natural. are you sure you can hold that against void rays/phoenix + gateway units, or 2stargate voids?
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On August 29 2011 14:23 akalarry wrote:
i do this style a lot, but not on maps with rocks covering the close third. i was wondering how you deal with air on taldarim and shattered? in one of the games on tda, i see you took the far one next to your natural. are you sure you can hold that against void rays/phoenix + gateway units, or 2stargate voids?
Taldarim I take the base where you would take as a 4'th I guess? Most zergs take it, by your main normally or the one farther away from there's.
Yes you can hold vs stargate play as long as you have spores and the 1 queen at each base you should be fine as long as you react properly and don't cut defense.
If he's going for a gateway/voidray all in or something that takes a lot of time and you should be able to hold it fine as long as you are making units and stuff.
In one of the replays I posted you'll notice I lose my third to void rays which was because I played kind of greedy and didn't sac overlord and assumed he wasn't going voids or anything due to his 1 gate expo. So that is an example of me losing my third to being cocky I guess you could say.
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On August 29 2011 13:51 blade55555 wrote:
Hi, heh I get that while streaming alot on why I don't bind keys.
Part of it is a habbit from bw where you always had to hotkey individual hatcheries. I really prefer this method because when I want to jump to a hatch, I want to jump to it not the queen. I feel I have more control over what I do rather then pressing the queen hotkey and then pressing backspace vvvvv. I don't like it just something I don't like to do at all.
I know DRG does it as well I believe and I imagine they have the same reasoning, habbit from bw, and you just have more control to where you want your camera to be. Most players prefer the queen method obviously but I am one who doesn't as reasons explained.
Do you not use camera hotkeys? In watching your replays it seems like you bind all your locations to camera hotkeys. Why then the redundancy of individually binding the hatches? How do you produce en masse? Say you want to remax on roach after an engagement. Do you hit 5---->RRRR 6--> RRRRRRR 7----> RRRRRRR 8----> RRRRRRR 9----> RRRRRR ??
Also, if you have creep connecting your first, second and third (say on daybreak or metal) and you have to deal with heavy stargate aggression, how do you get your queens around? would you jut hit 55 (select queen) 66 (select queen) and then 77 and attack with 3-4 queens then?
I ask because as a player who has been using the towncamera injection method for several months, I'm fed up with it and want to find a new way to inject. I've seen a few pros and now you as well doing this hotkey-less queen method, and I'm curious if you believe it's actually equal or better, or whether it's just an old bad habit that you've never felt like changing.
Thanks for your response, and yes if you wouldn't mind please upload some 15hatch v cannon rush videos if you have some on hand.
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Nice guide as always. I'm curious how being forced to pool first affects your subsequent timings? For example when do you take your 3rd against an FE when you have to 15 pool?
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On August 29 2011 17:45 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 13:51 blade55555 wrote:
Hi, heh I get that while streaming alot on why I don't bind keys.
Part of it is a habbit from bw where you always had to hotkey individual hatcheries. I really prefer this method because when I want to jump to a hatch, I want to jump to it not the queen. I feel I have more control over what I do rather then pressing the queen hotkey and then pressing backspace vvvvv. I don't like it just something I don't like to do at all.
I know DRG does it as well I believe and I imagine they have the same reasoning, habbit from bw, and you just have more control to where you want your camera to be. Most players prefer the queen method obviously but I am one who doesn't as reasons explained.
Do you not use camera hotkeys? In watching your replays it seems like you bind all your locations to camera hotkeys. Why then the redundancy of individually binding the hatches? How do you produce en masse? Say you want to remax on roach after an engagement. Do you hit 5---->RRRR 6--> RRRRRRR 7----> RRRRRRR 8----> RRRRRRR 9----> RRRRRR ?? Also, if you have creep connecting your first, second and third (say on daybreak or metal) and you have to deal with heavy stargate aggression, how do you get your queens around? would you jut hit 55 (select queen) 66 (select queen) and then 77 and attack with 3-4 queens then? I ask because as a player who has been using the towncamera injection method for several months, I'm fed up with it and want to find a new way to inject. I've seen a few pros and now you as well doing this hotkey-less queen method, and I'm curious if you believe it's actually equal or better, or whether it's just an old bad habit that you've never felt like changing. Thanks for your response, and yes if you wouldn't mind please upload some 15hatch v cannon rush videos if you have some on hand.
I do use f2-f4 for camera locations, I only use 1-2 normally but am trying to get myself into a habbit of using all of them. I just press 5/rrrrrr, etc. Takes maybe 2 seconds longer but normally I remax on just my main + macro hatch at main due to always having a ton of stock piled larva. usually don't have to use all my hatcheries to max.
I just hit 55 and select all my queens and move them over. Or I use camera f2-f4 and use those to get my queens, select them and bring them to the third.
I well upload some cannon replays in a little bit after I get back from school. I do not feel it is a bad habit to do this method at all. Although I know some people would disagree but if I felt it was really hindering my play I would change it but I know its not at all ^^
On August 30 2011 03:07 Shadrak wrote:
Nice guide as always. I'm curious how being forced to pool first affects your subsequent timings? For example when do you take your 3rd against an FE when you have to 15 pool?
Doesn't affect me at all as I don't hatch first most zvp's. Once I see the probe I throw down a pool and don't even attempt to hatch first.
You still get the third about same food, 19-21 food your third should be thrown down.
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http://www.mediafire.com/?g68v3nl54sexdnx
analysis: Cannon rush!
Sorry guys I seem to have somehow lost a couple replays of cannon rushes i might have deleted them accidentally but here is one, I make a little mistake but still hold fine. I well upload more once I get more sorry xD
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First of all thanks for making the guide, I've been struggling with my zvp in masters league in the last couple of days.
I'd like to ask few question.
1) I'm confused on when to get what upgrade. In the guide you specify to get carapace which makes sense since all protoss go for first +1. However, I'm not sure what upgrade to get next. Do I want to get the +2 carapace upgrade as precaution of +2? or maybe I want to upgrade my zerglings, maybe the roachs?
2) How well does roach hydra infestor fare with colossus vr deathballs from your experience?
3) If protoss goes for air, when is queens+spore enough and when do I need hydras?
4) If I go hydras vs air how I counter the inevitable colossus switch?
5) What is your endgame ideal army? Protoss can tech switch really easily when it comes to 4+ bases so its hard to respond to their army.
Thank you very much.
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heya, really helpful guide.
im still kinda skeptic about 15 hatch against forge fastexpand, i watched the replay and you lost a lot of drones and coul've lost even more with cannon micro =(.
well, im only diamond player so i wouldn't know that well.
you did great job in blocking the spot between the pylons to stop that cannon from being started.
from my experience toss kinda successfully manage to cover 2 cannon with pylons which is enough for your expansion to get kinda fucked =(.
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One thing to consider with cannon rushes is how much they have to spend and delay their tech. I'd say if you lose only 1/2 to 3/4ths their mineral value investment, I think you are still comfortable. I 14 pool 16 hatch because I don't have someone good to cannon rush me again and again, so i like to avoid the issue, but that's also because the probe always seems to get to me by 15 anyways.
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Hey Blade great guide as usual. I have a question thats unrelated to the build (which I've been using for a while since I watch your stream), since we hotkey hatcheries the same way I was wondering if you rebind the 8,9,0 keys to something else or if you just reach your fingers over/shift your hand closer to hit them. Because they're so far away I've been having problems accurately hitting those those keys and was just curious what you do. Also, unrelated do you keep the base of your left hand static on the table or should you let it move around a bit? Love the stream, keep up the good work .
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On August 30 2011 23:27 VanillaSky wrote:
First of all thanks for making the guide, I've been struggling with my zvp in masters league in the last couple of days.
I'd like to ask few question.
1) I'm confused on when to get what upgrade. In the guide you specify to get carapace which makes sense since all protoss go for first +1. However, I'm not sure what upgrade to get next. Do I want to get the +2 carapace upgrade as precaution of +2? or maybe I want to upgrade my zerglings, maybe the roachs?
2) How well does roach hydra infestor fare with colossus vr deathballs from your experience?
3) If protoss goes for air, when is queens+spore enough and when do I need hydras?
4) If I go hydras vs air how I counter the inevitable colossus switch?
5) What is your endgame ideal army? Protoss can tech switch really easily when it comes to 4+ bases so its hard to respond to their army.
Thank you very much.
Ok I'll answer!
1. I would get +2 carapace and melee unless I am going some sort of roach/hydra play due to either early air or I am going to go for a bust.
2. Hmmmm Its actually not to bad because infestors are really strong vs that composition as long as you micro correctly but I would still prefer roach/ling/infestor with a few hydra's to kill the void rays.
3. Pretty much for any voidray play I make hydra's, if they are doing 2 stargate phoenix where they are just making 8+ phoenixes I actually just get my spire and get corruptors as hydra's can be picked off easily and what not. If its not so much air I get hydra's. By not much air I mean not to many phoenixes.
4. You shouldn't make to many hydra's, just enough to be able to take out the air or at least make it so you could if you engaged. You should either be going for infestors, or you can try for old roach/hydra/corruptors that choice is up to you. I personally go for infestors and go to roach/ling/infestor as my main composition and stop hydra production normally unless I am going for a bust.
5. Yes a 4 base protoss is really hard to play vs in general. What I do is I start off broodlords, with roach/ling/infestor/broodlord. If he holds I normally try again (while getting ultra's ready) then do an ultra/ling/broodlord/infestor attack or just ultra/ling/infestor once the broodlords die. Ultra's are actually a decent transition unit after broodlords as they do good vs colossi/stalker as long as you have fungels and all the upgrades.
Hope this answers your questions .
On August 31 2011 00:08 Beyond Magic wrote:
heya, really helpful guide.
im still kinda skeptic about 15 hatch against forge fastexpand, i watched the replay and you lost a lot of drones and coul've lost even more with cannon micro =(.
well, im only diamond player so i wouldn't know that well.
you did great job in blocking the spot between the pylons to stop that cannon from being started.
from my experience toss kinda successfully manage to cover 2 cannon with pylons which is enough for your expansion to get kinda fucked =(.
Ah you can hold off a lot better, I made some mistakes but luckily he did to so thats why I was able to live. I normally can hold cannon rushes off without taking to much drone losses. I had a couple but I can't find them anymore and I played those a couple days ago >>. I played a cannon rush yesterday where I lost 0 drones and held off but it was a really bad cannon rush but i'll upload anyway.
But you can't make mistakes vs it or you do instant lose normally. I would never hatch first in a bo1 situation against protoss only bo3/5.
On August 31 2011 00:20 Sleight wrote:
One thing to consider with cannon rushes is how much they have to spend and delay their tech. I'd say if you lose only 1/2 to 3/4ths their mineral value investment, I think you are still comfortable. I 14 pool 16 hatch because I don't have someone good to cannon rush me again and again, so i like to avoid the issue, but that's also because the probe always seems to get to me by 15 anyways.
Yeah if you don't take to much damage and they invest alot you are normally in a good situation. Normally probes get to me by 15 anyway so I 15 pool most of the time, but this week I have been hatch firsting a lot more because that probe has been so late which is weird.
On August 31 2011 00:21 ExquisiteRed wrote:Hey Blade great guide as usual. I have a question thats unrelated to the build (which I've been using for a while since I watch your stream), since we hotkey hatcheries the same way I was wondering if you rebind the 8,9,0 keys to something else or if you just reach your fingers over/shift your hand closer to hit them. Because they're so far away I've been having problems accurately hitting those those keys and was just curious what you do. Also, unrelated do you keep the base of your left hand static on the table or should you let it move around a bit? Love the stream, keep up the good work .
Thanks!
Oh I just press ctrl +8/9/0 once those hatcheries are made I don't do anything special like prebind or prebind or anything (unless the drones on the way or something and I have nothing to do).
Errr not really sure about the left hand question but I think my left hand moves around alot and not stuck on the table but not sure lol. Glad you enjoy the stream and guide thanks ^_^.
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Wonderful build, I've been doing a slightly varied version myself ZvP.
Just a few clarifications, I understand +1 Cara is simply a preference for you, though is there any reason behind it besides some Ps getting quick +1s? I've never tried cara, always gotten +1 melee.
I actually get really greedy, if I have solid scouting in his base at the start and at his natural I'll actually put down my third before ling speed (differs map to map of course). I get gas roughly the same time you do, but put 2 drones in it and get speed when gas hits 100. I similarly don't believe investing 100/100 in ling speed too early is good. My slightly later ling speed gives me slightly more minerals really early, but I get lair and +1 attack a little faster than in your build (also depends on when I put a 3rd drone back in and when I get my 2nd gas and so forth).
Transitions wise, I always make a mad dash to hive tech, I will get at most 4 infestors to stall and get a 4th base while trading with massive amounts of upgraded 2melee/2 ling roach. Infestors, I feel, are amazing defensive, but tend to be less effective and micro'd very sloppily when on the offensive. If the toss doesn't do 2 base 6-8gate heavy pressure or makes the mistake of being too passive because he's rushing up and turtling to a deathball I will throw down a bane nest and do bane drops, while rushing to hive tech and taking my 4th and 5th myself.
My Ideal endgame depending on how the mid-game plays out is either where I'm ahead significantly in bases where the Toss feels he has to make 1 deathball push against me and I have broodlords roach ling infestor ready for an army trade where i transition into roach ling ultra for the kill, or I have broodlords ready to deny his 4th/5th or any base that will let him feel that he is on even econ with me, which forces him into the 1st scenario.
I guess I'm focusing more on transition here, but then again, the ability to have this clear direction for mid-endgame all stems from the heavy mineral advantage from this awesome build though.
Nice work.
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On August 31 2011 04:34 nehcnhoj wrote:
Wonderful build, I've been doing a slightly varied version myself ZvP.
Just a few clarifications, I understand +1 Cara is simply a preference for you, though is there any reason behind it besides some Ps getting quick +1s? I've never tried cara, always gotten +1 melee.
I actually get really greedy, if I have solid scouting in his base at the start and at his natural I'll actually put down my third before ling speed (differs map to map of course). I get gas roughly the same time you do, but put 2 drones in it and get speed when gas hits 100. I similarly don't believe investing 100/100 in ling speed too early is good. My slightly later ling speed gives me slightly more minerals really early, but I get lair and +1 attack a little faster than in your build (also depends on when I put a 3rd drone back in and when I get my 2nd gas and so forth).
Transitions wise, I always make a mad dash to hive tech, I will get at most 4 infestors to stall and get a 4th base while trading with massive amounts of upgraded 2melee/2 ling roach. Infestors, I feel, are amazing defensive, but tend to be less effective and micro'd very sloppily when on the offensive. If the toss doesn't do 2 base 6-8gate heavy pressure or makes the mistake of being too passive because he's rushing up and turtling to a deathball I will throw down a bane nest and do bane drops, while rushing to hive tech and taking my 4th and 5th myself.
My Ideal endgame depending on how the mid-game plays out is either where I'm ahead significantly in bases where the Toss feels he has to make 1 deathball push against me and I have broodlords roach ling infestor ready for an army trade where i transition into roach ling ultra for the kill, or I have broodlords ready to deny his 4th/5th or any base that will let him feel that he is on even econ with me, which forces him into the 1st scenario.
I guess I'm focusing more on transition here, but then again, the ability to have this clear direction for mid-endgame all stems from the heavy mineral advantage from this awesome build though.
Nice work.
Yeah i'm not a fan of a fast dive to hive tech unless they take a fast third base and you cant pressure it due to the architecture of the map and Force field.
But yeah you can do whatever you want with the build I just wrote the transition I prefer and find strongest but I know other people who prefer ling/bane/infestor and stuff even though I well never do it I know others well This is just a really good start out :D
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Blade, i hate to annoy you with so many questions, but, how would you react to alot of warp prism harasses play? Do you leave some army at base to deal with them?
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On September 04 2011 13:02 TolEranceNA wrote:
Blade, i hate to annoy you with so many questions, but, how would you react to alot of warp prism harasses play? Do you leave some army at base to deal with them?
Yeah i'll send some roaches to stay back and defend where I think he's hitting or use queens if possible to kill them.
If its later game where I have a spire because i'm going broodlords i'll make some corruptors and kill it then morph them into bl's.
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Hey guys bumping this again (god I really hate doing this sometimes >>).
I have 3 new replays added that are not vs forge FE, there is a zealot/cannon rush in 2 of them and third game is kind of messy after 10 minutes but I believe he 1 or 3 gate expo'd can't remember off the top of my head. So here is the link: http://www.mediafire.com/?2te7h5nuhqnznqz
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I love your guides thanks. I like the fact you cover many scenarios and provide replays for it.
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Thanks for the new replays, I'm a big fan
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Hey u dont have to bump this i read all of your posts!
Do you think you can spend the first 100 gas on lair instead of speed, and defend with slow lings and spines, and then detection via overseer is only 50 gas?
i think this is what zergs in the GSL are now doing
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thanks for help man...I really have trouble with toss FFE then stargate to pressure, then deathball follow. I feel I have to allin during the time collosi is not in high numbers...I know I've got to improve positioning roaches and infestors, I find it so darn hard...then 1.4 came its even worse with the NP nerf....I got to practice more...
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Just one question:
When i see a fast third, i go double stargate after ffe. That is usually an auto win for me, unless i really mess up. How can you stop a double stargate with 4 voids + rallied phoenixes? I asked a friend of mine, a high level zerg and he said he stopped doing a super fast third because of double stargate.
FYI: hydras arent really the solution, because the 6-8 phoenixes make short work of the lonely hydralisks
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On September 23 2011 22:37 Brainiak wrote:
Just one question:
When i see a fast third, i go double stargate after ffe. That is usually an auto win for me, unless i really mess up. How can you stop a double stargate with 4 voids + rallied phoenixes? I asked a friend of mine, a high level zerg and he said he stopped doing a super fast third because of double stargate.
FYI: hydras arent really the solution, because the 6-8 phoenixes make short work of the lonely hydralisks
this...can somebody give advise on the proper response? I really have trouble in dealing with this...i know a quick third is the response for toss forge first FE but I feel so contained when they go stargate...
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What are your thoughts on building drops into this build? I feel like especially vs FFE builds Zerg get to near full supply really fast, but are unable to put any kind of pressure because of how effective robo+ sentry turtle can be against roach ling. While you could just sit back and go straight to hive at this point, I feel it could be equally effective to just throw your cheap tier 1 roach ling armies at them with drops, to delay their expansions, while focusing on getting a stronger economy but delayed hive.
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On September 23 2011 18:06 firehand101 wrote:
Hey u dont have to bump this i read all of your posts!
Do you think you can spend the first 100 gas on lair instead of speed, and defend with slow lings and spines, and then detection via overseer is only 50 gas?
i think this is what zergs in the GSL are now doing
Err I personally don't like not having speed ever especially vs 6 gate all in or something I think speedlings are quite good once the zealots are dead.
On September 23 2011 22:37 Brainiak wrote:
Just one question:
When i see a fast third, i go double stargate after ffe. That is usually an auto win for me, unless i really mess up. How can you stop a double stargate with 4 voids + rallied phoenixes? I asked a friend of mine, a high level zerg and he said he stopped doing a super fast third because of double stargate.
FYI: hydras arent really the solution, because the 6-8 phoenixes make short work of the lonely hydralisks
Well I have held it by making spores and quiet a few queens. Sacrificing 2 overlords at the same time in locations so you can see most if not all the base so you can properly react to it. When toss goes 2 stargates they won't have a lot of anti air to kill the overlords fast enough so you should see both stargates if that is what they are doing.
I have had this done to me a few times and I make extra spores + queens (again with this build you get a lot of minerals so this doesn't hurt also the 2 stargate heavy voidray/phoenix play is pretty all in if it fails you are guaranteed a win unless you mess up). I have only faced this like times and I won 2 out of the 3 times. Once was vs thewind (which I believe is one of the replays I didn't even scout and he did quiet a bit of damage killing my main hatchery to).
On September 27 2011 00:18 alphaQ wrote:
What are your thoughts on building drops into this build? I feel like especially vs FFE builds Zerg get to near full supply really fast, but are unable to put any kind of pressure because of how effective robo+ sentry turtle can be against roach ling. While you could just sit back and go straight to hive at this point, I feel it could be equally effective to just throw your cheap tier 1 roach ling armies at them with drops, to delay their expansions, while focusing on getting a stronger economy but delayed hive.
Well drop play is never bad I don't see a problem with it but I would rather get a fasterish hive (again minerals won't be a problem so droning/expanding while going hive won't hurt and delay economy really) instead of drop. You can do lots of things after the initial opening but if toss is taking a third you can normally be aggressive to try and deny it or at least trade armies (which goes in favor of you heavily if you can kill most if not all of his you pretty much win). You could do that and drop play which would be good. Depends how you want to play you don't have to go a decent hive speed ^^.
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Off topic but why is your grammar so dodgy? Aren't you from America
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Don't care for checking on forums on how good my grammar is.
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On September 27 2011 07:00 blade55555 wrote:
Don't care for checking on forums on how good my grammar is.
You shouldn't have to check. But whatever
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I'm a big fan of delayed lair in ZvP as well, as evo chambers make you basically immune to any protoss tech.
Instead of infestors, I take the drop route though, and try to go from roach/ling/corruptor to roach/ling/hydra by clearing out the collossus. After the roach ling aggression/fast third (depending on 3 gate expand or FFE), you continue to stick with roaches and lings as your primary composition, using it's speed and cost efficiency to delay their third. You get +1 melee fairly early, and then go double evo once your lair is complete and you have your third as well. Along the way, getting drop tech and roach speed and adding ovie speed a bit later to time with drop If collossus are coming, spire if HTs, roach burrow. But usually protoss goes robo, so you make sure you have corruptors available. As the protoss tries to build up their army, you use cheap lings and roaches as throwaway drops, just dumping roaches/ling in different spots to try and do damage and just generally annoy them and prevent them from moving out without investing in more cannons (and it takes quite a few cannons to stop lings and roaches together). During the harass time, you can put down your hydra den and get range, but you don't really make hydras yet.
When they do move out, I find that roach/ling/corruptor actually fares decently against a collossus based ball because lings take stalker hits decently, you have more roaches than you would with roach/hydra, lings/roaches together need more forcefields, and along with faster reinforcing, your corruptors (you get like 10+) can clear out the collossi, during which you hold down the H key and start pumping the hydras. With collossus out of the way, you can use your hydras with roach/ling support (mostly lings cause they reinforce quick) to push into the protoss and chew up the gateway units, using corruption to help out the dps as well as hunt down any collossi that get made. Meanwhile, you can do more throwaway drops and ling or roach backstabs.
http://assets2.tv.mlg-cdn.com/videos/90-losira-vs-naniwa-wb-semifinals
Basically i imitate losira's style, except i add in drop tech.
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Hey there blade, do you still use this? I haven't been having much success at all with infestors, so I was wondering if you were. If you haven't been, I'd love an update on your transitions if you don't mind.
But that aside, what about the actual build order, is it still viable or have you found pretty bad flaws/counters? Just wondering, because the last edit date is 9-08. x.x
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On October 24 2011 02:27 Mayor wrote:
Hey there blade, do you still use this? I haven't been having much success at all with infestors, so I was wondering if you were. If you haven't been, I'd love an update on your transitions if you don't mind.
But that aside, what about the actual build order, is it still viable or have you found pretty bad flaws/counters? Just wondering, because the last edit date is 9-08. x.x
I do still use this and there still isn't really any hard counters or anything to this build.
Zerg vs protoss has gotten a bit tough after the patch but what I have found being super effective lately is being super aggressive with roaches to try to keep his army count low while expanding and teching to infestors. (this is after the initial 3 bases I have saturated of course). I am finding this very effective lately and my win rate in the match up has improved doing this.
I will edit the OP of this with my newish transition out of it .
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Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks
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On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks
for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it.
I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though).
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On November 11 2011 03:47 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it. I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though).
awesome. good info.
then what about dropping the roach warren and NOT attacking with it to fool the toss? or Just expanding behind a 7rr, old school style? what is the validity? I just tried a RR in a game in I was shocked that it worked.
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On November 11 2011 11:03 EndOfLine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:47 blade55555 wrote:On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it. I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though). awesome. good info. then what about dropping the roach warren and NOT attacking with it to fool the toss? or Just expanding behind a 7rr, old school style? what is the validity? I just tried a RR in a game in I was shocked that it worked.
A 1 base RR is pretty cheesy honestly if you don't kill him or do any damage you are very behind. Against a 1 base toss I do always get my roach warren started by 4:50-5 minutes on the slight chance he 4 gates or does some weird attack but I won't make the roaches until I see him moving out or I am positive he's going to do a 4 gate.
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On November 11 2011 11:31 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 11:03 EndOfLine wrote:On November 11 2011 03:47 blade55555 wrote:On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it. I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though). awesome. good info. then what about dropping the roach warren and NOT attacking with it to fool the toss? or Just expanding behind a 7rr, old school style? what is the validity? I just tried a RR in a game in I was shocked that it worked. A 1 base RR is pretty cheesy honestly if you don't kill him or do any damage you are very behind. Against a 1 base toss I do always get my roach warren started by 4:50-5 minutes on the slight chance he 4 gates or does some weird attack but I won't make the roaches until I see him moving out or I am positive he's going to do a 4 gate.
awesome. thanks
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If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas.
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On November 14 2011 06:32 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas.
You don't need zergling speed fast vs a forge FE is why. You shouldn't get as late a gas as you would against forge fe as you do need zergling speed vs a non forge FE build, especially if he 4 gates so roach/ling can hold that a lot easier with speed then with not.
But vs a forge FE speed you don't need to rush for it.
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On November 14 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 06:32 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas. You don't need zergling speed fast vs a forge FE is why. You shouldn't get as late a gas as you would against forge fe as you do need zergling speed vs a non forge FE build, especially if he 4 gates so roach/ling can hold that a lot easier with speed then with not. But vs a forge FE speed you don't need to rush for it.
Sure, but how would you know if he's forge expanding or not? A lot of the time (at least for me) protoss does a non FFE on a map like taldarim and also does forge expand on for example metalopolis. Do you send an early scout to check for it?
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On November 14 2011 22:36 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:On November 14 2011 06:32 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas. You don't need zergling speed fast vs a forge FE is why. You shouldn't get as late a gas as you would against forge fe as you do need zergling speed vs a non forge FE build, especially if he 4 gates so roach/ling can hold that a lot easier with speed then with not. But vs a forge FE speed you don't need to rush for it. Sure, but how would you know if he's forge expanding or not? A lot of the time (at least for me) protoss does a non FFE on a map like taldarim and also does forge expand on for example metalopolis. Do you send an early scout to check for it?
Well I still delay gas until after spawning pool finishes regardless of forge fe or not, but I send a drone at 14 supply to scout normally.
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Nice post for macro-style ZvP, it's actually EASIER to hold the various 2-base gateway timings without a lair - you'll have a superior economy and be able to mass ling/roaches out of 3 hatcheries faster.
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EPT
