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I'm a big fan of delayed lair in ZvP as well, as evo chambers make you basically immune to any protoss tech.
Instead of infestors, I take the drop route though, and try to go from roach/ling/corruptor to roach/ling/hydra by clearing out the collossus. After the roach ling aggression/fast third (depending on 3 gate expand or FFE), you continue to stick with roaches and lings as your primary composition, using it's speed and cost efficiency to delay their third. You get +1 melee fairly early, and then go double evo once your lair is complete and you have your third as well. Along the way, getting drop tech and roach speed and adding ovie speed a bit later to time with drop If collossus are coming, spire if HTs, roach burrow. But usually protoss goes robo, so you make sure you have corruptors available. As the protoss tries to build up their army, you use cheap lings and roaches as throwaway drops, just dumping roaches/ling in different spots to try and do damage and just generally annoy them and prevent them from moving out without investing in more cannons (and it takes quite a few cannons to stop lings and roaches together). During the harass time, you can put down your hydra den and get range, but you don't really make hydras yet.
When they do move out, I find that roach/ling/corruptor actually fares decently against a collossus based ball because lings take stalker hits decently, you have more roaches than you would with roach/hydra, lings/roaches together need more forcefields, and along with faster reinforcing, your corruptors (you get like 10+) can clear out the collossi, during which you hold down the H key and start pumping the hydras. With collossus out of the way, you can use your hydras with roach/ling support (mostly lings cause they reinforce quick) to push into the protoss and chew up the gateway units, using corruption to help out the dps as well as hunt down any collossi that get made. Meanwhile, you can do more throwaway drops and ling or roach backstabs.
http://assets2.tv.mlg-cdn.com/videos/90-losira-vs-naniwa-wb-semifinals
Basically i imitate losira's style, except i add in drop tech.
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Hey there blade, do you still use this? I haven't been having much success at all with infestors, so I was wondering if you were. If you haven't been, I'd love an update on your transitions if you don't mind.
But that aside, what about the actual build order, is it still viable or have you found pretty bad flaws/counters? Just wondering, because the last edit date is 9-08. x.x
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On October 24 2011 02:27 Mayor wrote:
Hey there blade, do you still use this? I haven't been having much success at all with infestors, so I was wondering if you were. If you haven't been, I'd love an update on your transitions if you don't mind.
But that aside, what about the actual build order, is it still viable or have you found pretty bad flaws/counters? Just wondering, because the last edit date is 9-08. x.x
I do still use this and there still isn't really any hard counters or anything to this build.
Zerg vs protoss has gotten a bit tough after the patch but what I have found being super effective lately is being super aggressive with roaches to try to keep his army count low while expanding and teching to infestors. (this is after the initial 3 bases I have saturated of course). I am finding this very effective lately and my win rate in the match up has improved doing this.
I will edit the OP of this with my newish transition out of it  .
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Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks
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On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks
for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it.
I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though).
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On November 11 2011 03:47 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it. I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though).
awesome. good info.
then what about dropping the roach warren and NOT attacking with it to fool the toss? or Just expanding behind a 7rr, old school style? what is the validity? I just tried a RR in a game in I was shocked that it worked.
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On November 11 2011 11:03 EndOfLine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:47 blade55555 wrote:On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it. I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though). awesome. good info. then what about dropping the roach warren and NOT attacking with it to fool the toss? or Just expanding behind a 7rr, old school style? what is the validity? I just tried a RR in a game in I was shocked that it worked.
A 1 base RR is pretty cheesy honestly if you don't kill him or do any damage you are very behind. Against a 1 base toss I do always get my roach warren started by 4:50-5 minutes on the slight chance he 4 gates or does some weird attack but I won't make the roaches until I see him moving out or I am positive he's going to do a 4 gate.
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On November 11 2011 11:31 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 11:03 EndOfLine wrote:On November 11 2011 03:47 blade55555 wrote:On November 10 2011 23:03 EndOfLine wrote:
Hey Blade, I have been having trouble with my zvp lately. So I have been studying your B/O'ers and your replays and feel MUCH stronger in the MO.
Question: How do you feel about 13P 15G opening compared to 14/15pool? Do you think there is only a marginal difference? Do you think at the master/gm lvl, opening early is enough of a mind game to make protoss feel less safe, and create a more defensive reaction?
Question 2: During that magical part of zvp where you are not sure if its going to be a 3 gate expand, or 1 base all in. Do you suggest conserving money/larve around 6min so you can either get back to droning or make pure units? Or do you conserve at 6:30 or not at all?
Thanks for your 1st question, 13 pool/15 gas I do not like because it won't really make toss any less safe unless you are planning a roach bust but odds are they won't over react to it. I do save larva at about 5:45-6 minutes to see if they are expanding or not (if I see sentry's I won't save as much larva though). awesome. good info. then what about dropping the roach warren and NOT attacking with it to fool the toss? or Just expanding behind a 7rr, old school style? what is the validity? I just tried a RR in a game in I was shocked that it worked. A 1 base RR is pretty cheesy honestly if you don't kill him or do any damage you are very behind. Against a 1 base toss I do always get my roach warren started by 4:50-5 minutes on the slight chance he 4 gates or does some weird attack but I won't make the roaches until I see him moving out or I am positive he's going to do a 4 gate.
awesome. thanks
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If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas.
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On November 14 2011 06:32 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas.
You don't need zergling speed fast vs a forge FE is why. You shouldn't get as late a gas as you would against forge fe as you do need zergling speed vs a non forge FE build, especially if he 4 gates so roach/ling can hold that a lot easier with speed then with not.
But vs a forge FE speed you don't need to rush for it.
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On November 14 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 06:32 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas. You don't need zergling speed fast vs a forge FE is why. You shouldn't get as late a gas as you would against forge fe as you do need zergling speed vs a non forge FE build, especially if he 4 gates so roach/ling can hold that a lot easier with speed then with not. But vs a forge FE speed you don't need to rush for it.
Sure, but how would you know if he's forge expanding or not? A lot of the time (at least for me) protoss does a non FFE on a map like taldarim and also does forge expand on for example metalopolis. Do you send an early scout to check for it?
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On November 14 2011 22:36 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:On November 14 2011 06:32 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
If you get gas when your pool finishes your zergling speed will be really late. What do you do when the protoss chrono boosts a zealot and 1/2 stalkers and rallies to your natural? You will need like 12+ lings to deal with it, and I personally have been damaged a lot by this, especially since they can just expand off that 1gate quite early (even at around 5:00 behind a zealot and stalker) because he knows there's little you can do with such late gas. You don't need zergling speed fast vs a forge FE is why. You shouldn't get as late a gas as you would against forge fe as you do need zergling speed vs a non forge FE build, especially if he 4 gates so roach/ling can hold that a lot easier with speed then with not. But vs a forge FE speed you don't need to rush for it. Sure, but how would you know if he's forge expanding or not? A lot of the time (at least for me) protoss does a non FFE on a map like taldarim and also does forge expand on for example metalopolis. Do you send an early scout to check for it?
Well I still delay gas until after spawning pool finishes regardless of forge fe or not, but I send a drone at 14 supply to scout normally.
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Nice post for macro-style ZvP, it's actually EASIER to hold the various 2-base gateway timings without a lair - you'll have a superior economy and be able to mass ling/roaches out of 3 hatcheries faster.
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EPT
