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On August 28 2011 04:17 Sithelin123 wrote:
Do you think that if a player is still learning how to play Zerg (im a plat player that switched to Z like a week ago and am still having some trouble even with fundamentals) that this build would be better to use than that Destiny timing attack into double expand?
I don't know destiny's build as I don't pay attention to him, but if you are just learning zerg I would try learning a macro oriented build whether thats this build or some other build.
You will probably lose more doing this build as games are longer then if you do that whatever destiny's timing attack is. I imagine its an attack that can win the game, but if it fails you are probably far behind even though double expanding but again don't know much about it so can't comment to much on it  .
But to work on macro, larva injects and stuff yes this build would be good to work on some of those fundamentals.
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I think this build also looks safer to me because of the roach warren so I think I might start using it. Destiny's ling/infestor basically auto-loses to 6 gate, at least at my skill level. Its impossible to hold off for me with just lings and spines and still not get far behind.
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Great write up, but why do you discourage lings against a 3 gate push? The lings seem to offer great map control and can even discourage that push.
and whats the name of your stream? blade5555?
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On August 28 2011 04:33 Sithelin123 wrote:
I think this build also looks safer to me because of the roach warren so I think I might start using it. Destiny's ling/infestor basically auto-loses to 6 gate, at least at my skill level. Its impossible to hold off for me with just lings and spines and still not get far behind.
Oh yeah its not very possible unless you make like a ton of spines to hold 6 gate all in with just lings. I also find roach/infestor way way stronger then ling/infestor ^^.
On August 28 2011 05:01 sgtjimmy wrote:
Great write up, but why do you discourage lings against a 3 gate push? The lings seem to offer great map control and can even discourage that push.
and whats the name of your stream? blade5555?
yeah same as my username when streaming or you can search Tl for "blade stream" to get the direct stream which has vods of all my play :p.
thanks for the feedback guys and kind comments ^^.
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Bumping this to let people know about the new replay.
http://www.mediafire.com/?i9hpugjl67lnoxs
Its a 3 gate expand and all that. Only 3 gate expo I have faced today out of the 8 zvp's i played or something like that so enjoy!
I"ll start using a different site eventually but to lazy to right now as I don't have to register to upload this 
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Solid guide. Many strong Z players still do not do safe builds to take an early 3rd base, even at high masters GM level.
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The korean you played on Backwater Gulch is NsPSP from heoseo. The other one means something like "kill you with one hand".
I have a question not related to your guide, but it's about your inject method. Why do you not bind your queens? I noticed Nestea does the same thing. Can you explain to me why this is and why you believe it to be superior to binding queens to 5/6/7 or binding them all on the same key?
My other question (and I read your zvp guide as well) is how do you have the balls to always 15hatch vs protoss? Your game on tal'darim showed some interesting micro with the drone on hold position at the choke and another chasing. Do you feel like given all this as a precautionary response to what protoss might or might not do, that it's still worth it to hatch first instead of say, 15pool 16hatch?
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Thanks very much for the guide and replays blade. They really help out, especially for myself who switched from Protoss to Zerg and is still trying to learn macro orientated builds to help improve mechanics. I have 1 question though, it's kind of a what if question but I just want to hear your opinion.
With the new immortal 6 range coming out in the new patch, I'm starting to envision a lot of zealot/immortal timing attacks from Protoss when the patch comes out. The Immortals will be at a safer distance and will not able to be picked off by roaches as easy with the zealot front imo. The zealots will wreck Zerglings while the immortals pick at the roaches from behind the zealots. I know know as Zerg were used to dealing with 5-7 gate timing attacks which, ling/roach can hold off but I'm worried about zealot/Immortal timing attacks. Do you think your build with a slow lair tech, can adapt to fend off such an attack with roach/ling? Or am I just over speculating the whole situation and not seeing the timings very clear.
Thanks again!
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I was watching the mlg yesterday, and a protoss did a heavy double stargate VR build against a zerg. What worries me is that scouting information is quite hard to get hold of before lair tech, and with a delayed lair a double stargate build could cause this build real trouble.
Do you think that this 2xstargate stuff could be dealt with by a delayed lair build? Is it just better slowverlord saccing neeeded, or if this stargate play becomes popular will we just have to change it up to get lair quicker to see what's going on?
In reply to SlightReturn, imo immo/zealot pushes should be reasonably easy to handle with roach/ling. The immos and zeals will naturally separate from each other and then all you have to do is come in from the back with lings and take out the immortals. If the toss chooses to stay balled up then it's just the same as pre-patch and roaches can shoot over the heads of the zealots at the immortals.
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blade many thanks for the thorough guide! <3 its going to help many zergs struggling with protoss.
What about 3 gate expand to 6 gate timings? Is it possible to hold without the upgrades for roaches (burrow, speed) ?
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On August 28 2011 20:19 michaelhasanalias wrote:
The korean you played on Backwater Gulch is NsPSP from heoseo. The other one means something like "kill you with one hand".
I have a question not related to your guide, but it's about your inject method. Why do you not bind your queens? I noticed Nestea does the same thing. Can you explain to me why this is and why you believe it to be superior to binding queens to 5/6/7 or binding them all on the same key?
My other question (and I read your zvp guide as well) is how do you have the balls to always 15hatch vs protoss? Your game on tal'darim showed some interesting micro with the drone on hold position at the choke and another chasing. Do you feel like given all this as a precautionary response to what protoss might or might not do, that it's still worth it to hatch first instead of say, 15pool 16hatch?
ah thanks for the translation of the names .
Hi, heh I get that while streaming alot on why I don't bind keys.
Part of it is a habbit from bw where you always had to hotkey individual hatcheries. I really prefer this method because when I want to jump to a hatch, I want to jump to it not the queen. I feel I have more control over what I do rather then pressing the queen hotkey and then pressing backspace vvvvv. I don't like it just something I don't like to do at all.
I know DRG does it as well I believe and I imagine they have the same reasoning, habbit from bw, and you just have more control to where you want your camera to be. Most players prefer the queen method obviously but I am one who doesn't as reasons explained.
I practiced with a couple protosses (vvvtime being one) and had them literally cannon rush me like 20 times in a row. It is possible to hold contrary to popular belief but you really do have to hold correctly. If you mess up a little bit its instant loss. I do have cannon rushes that were used against me recently that I well upload for those curious on ones that actually do. but I feel its fine, in a tournament bo1 situation I would never hatch first, if it was a player like WBC who only cannon rushes I wouldn't do it either.
but overall I find its worth it, but if I see a probe at all I 15 pool, if I see no probe I hatch first on most maps ^^.
On August 28 2011 21:32 SlightReturn wrote:
Thanks very much for the guide and replays blade. They really help out, especially for myself who switched from Protoss to Zerg and is still trying to learn macro orientated builds to help improve mechanics. I have 1 question though, it's kind of a what if question but I just want to hear your opinion.
With the new immortal 6 range coming out in the new patch, I'm starting to envision a lot of zealot/immortal timing attacks from Protoss when the patch comes out. The Immortals will be at a safer distance and will not able to be picked off by roaches as easy with the zealot front imo. The zealots will wreck Zerglings while the immortals pick at the roaches from behind the zealots. I know know as Zerg were used to dealing with 5-7 gate timing attacks which, ling/roach can hold off but I'm worried about zealot/Immortal timing attacks. Do you think your build with a slow lair tech, can adapt to fend off such an attack with roach/ling? Or am I just over speculating the whole situation and not seeing the timings very clear.
Thanks again!
The short answer is, yes you will be able to hold off a zealot/immortal timing attack with just roach/ling. I mean zealots really are terrible vs mass roaches, and with a bunch of lings you can surround the immortals. This is the least of my worries in terms of the immortal buff. But that is just speculating its possible it could but I really don't see how as of right now.
On August 28 2011 22:03 Zrana wrote:
I was watching the mlg yesterday, and a protoss did a heavy double stargate VR build against a zerg. What worries me is that scouting information is quite hard to get hold of before lair tech, and with a delayed lair a double stargate build could cause this build real trouble.
Do you think that this 2xstargate stuff could be dealt with by a delayed lair build? Is it just better slowverlord saccing neeeded, or if this stargate play becomes popular will we just have to change it up to get lair quicker to see what's going on?
In reply to SlightReturn, imo immo/zealot pushes should be reasonably easy to handle with roach/ling. The immos and zeals will naturally separate from each other and then all you have to do is come in from the back with lings and take out the immortals. If the toss chooses to stay balled up then it's just the same as pre-patch and roaches can shoot over the heads of the zealots at the immortals.
Yes it can be dealt with by delayed lair, yes you have to sacrifice a slow overlord. If you can't for whatever reason then you need to build blind spores at least 1 at each base. You get a ton of minerals so this shouldn't be a big deal as stargate play you see the air by about 7:30 I think the timing is so you should be prepared no matter what. Off of a forge FE I face some sort of stargate play 9 times out of 10.
On August 29 2011 00:10 Bleez wrote:
blade many thanks for the thorough guide! <3 its going to help many zergs struggling with protoss.
What about 3 gate expand to 6 gate timings? Is it possible to hold without the upgrades for roaches (burrow, speed) ?
Yes it is possible to hold without the upgrades of speed/burrow. But you do want to try to engage in a more open choke so that FF's don't just roll through you.
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Thanks a lot blade, I love your guides so far and I'm going to start trying this build tomorrow. Definitely going to start tuning into your stream as much as possible.
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i do this style a lot, but not on maps with rocks covering the close third. i was wondering how you deal with air on taldarim and shattered? in one of the games on tda, i see you took the far one next to your natural. are you sure you can hold that against void rays/phoenix + gateway units, or 2stargate voids?
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On August 29 2011 14:23 akalarry wrote:
i do this style a lot, but not on maps with rocks covering the close third. i was wondering how you deal with air on taldarim and shattered? in one of the games on tda, i see you took the far one next to your natural. are you sure you can hold that against void rays/phoenix + gateway units, or 2stargate voids?
Taldarim I take the base where you would take as a 4'th I guess? Most zergs take it, by your main normally or the one farther away from there's.
Yes you can hold vs stargate play as long as you have spores and the 1 queen at each base you should be fine as long as you react properly and don't cut defense.
If he's going for a gateway/voidray all in or something that takes a lot of time and you should be able to hold it fine as long as you are making units and stuff.
In one of the replays I posted you'll notice I lose my third to void rays which was because I played kind of greedy and didn't sac overlord and assumed he wasn't going voids or anything due to his 1 gate expo. So that is an example of me losing my third to being cocky I guess you could say.
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On August 29 2011 13:51 blade55555 wrote:
Hi, heh I get that while streaming alot on why I don't bind keys.
Part of it is a habbit from bw where you always had to hotkey individual hatcheries. I really prefer this method because when I want to jump to a hatch, I want to jump to it not the queen. I feel I have more control over what I do rather then pressing the queen hotkey and then pressing backspace vvvvv. I don't like it just something I don't like to do at all.
I know DRG does it as well I believe and I imagine they have the same reasoning, habbit from bw, and you just have more control to where you want your camera to be. Most players prefer the queen method obviously but I am one who doesn't as reasons explained.
Do you not use camera hotkeys? In watching your replays it seems like you bind all your locations to camera hotkeys. Why then the redundancy of individually binding the hatches? How do you produce en masse? Say you want to remax on roach after an engagement. Do you hit 5---->RRRR 6--> RRRRRRR 7----> RRRRRRR 8----> RRRRRRR 9----> RRRRRR ??
Also, if you have creep connecting your first, second and third (say on daybreak or metal) and you have to deal with heavy stargate aggression, how do you get your queens around? would you jut hit 55 (select queen) 66 (select queen) and then 77 and attack with 3-4 queens then?
I ask because as a player who has been using the towncamera injection method for several months, I'm fed up with it and want to find a new way to inject. I've seen a few pros and now you as well doing this hotkey-less queen method, and I'm curious if you believe it's actually equal or better, or whether it's just an old bad habit that you've never felt like changing.
Thanks for your response, and yes if you wouldn't mind please upload some 15hatch v cannon rush videos if you have some on hand.
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Nice guide as always. I'm curious how being forced to pool first affects your subsequent timings? For example when do you take your 3rd against an FE when you have to 15 pool?
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On August 29 2011 17:45 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 13:51 blade55555 wrote:
Hi, heh I get that while streaming alot on why I don't bind keys.
Part of it is a habbit from bw where you always had to hotkey individual hatcheries. I really prefer this method because when I want to jump to a hatch, I want to jump to it not the queen. I feel I have more control over what I do rather then pressing the queen hotkey and then pressing backspace vvvvv. I don't like it just something I don't like to do at all.
I know DRG does it as well I believe and I imagine they have the same reasoning, habbit from bw, and you just have more control to where you want your camera to be. Most players prefer the queen method obviously but I am one who doesn't as reasons explained.
Do you not use camera hotkeys? In watching your replays it seems like you bind all your locations to camera hotkeys. Why then the redundancy of individually binding the hatches? How do you produce en masse? Say you want to remax on roach after an engagement. Do you hit 5---->RRRR 6--> RRRRRRR 7----> RRRRRRR 8----> RRRRRRR 9----> RRRRRR ?? Also, if you have creep connecting your first, second and third (say on daybreak or metal) and you have to deal with heavy stargate aggression, how do you get your queens around? would you jut hit 55 (select queen) 66 (select queen) and then 77 and attack with 3-4 queens then? I ask because as a player who has been using the towncamera injection method for several months, I'm fed up with it and want to find a new way to inject. I've seen a few pros and now you as well doing this hotkey-less queen method, and I'm curious if you believe it's actually equal or better, or whether it's just an old bad habit that you've never felt like changing. Thanks for your response, and yes if you wouldn't mind please upload some 15hatch v cannon rush videos if you have some on hand.
I do use f2-f4 for camera locations, I only use 1-2 normally but am trying to get myself into a habbit of using all of them. I just press 5/rrrrrr, etc. Takes maybe 2 seconds longer but normally I remax on just my main + macro hatch at main due to always having a ton of stock piled larva. usually don't have to use all my hatcheries to max.
I just hit 55 and select all my queens and move them over. Or I use camera f2-f4 and use those to get my queens, select them and bring them to the third.
I well upload some cannon replays in a little bit after I get back from school. I do not feel it is a bad habit to do this method at all. Although I know some people would disagree but if I felt it was really hindering my play I would change it but I know its not at all ^^
On August 30 2011 03:07 Shadrak wrote:
Nice guide as always. I'm curious how being forced to pool first affects your subsequent timings? For example when do you take your 3rd against an FE when you have to 15 pool?
Doesn't affect me at all as I don't hatch first most zvp's. Once I see the probe I throw down a pool and don't even attempt to hatch first.
You still get the third about same food, 19-21 food your third should be thrown down.
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http://www.mediafire.com/?g68v3nl54sexdnx
analysis: Cannon rush!
Sorry guys I seem to have somehow lost a couple replays of cannon rushes i might have deleted them accidentally but here is one, I make a little mistake but still hold fine. I well upload more once I get more sorry xD
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First of all thanks for making the guide, I've been struggling with my zvp in masters league in the last couple of days.
I'd like to ask few question.
1) I'm confused on when to get what upgrade. In the guide you specify to get carapace which makes sense since all protoss go for first +1. However, I'm not sure what upgrade to get next. Do I want to get the +2 carapace upgrade as precaution of +2? or maybe I want to upgrade my zerglings, maybe the roachs?
2) How well does roach hydra infestor fare with colossus vr deathballs from your experience?
3) If protoss goes for air, when is queens+spore enough and when do I need hydras?
4) If I go hydras vs air how I counter the inevitable colossus switch?
5) What is your endgame ideal army? Protoss can tech switch really easily when it comes to 4+ bases so its hard to respond to their army.
Thank you very much.
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heya, really helpful guide.
im still kinda skeptic about 15 hatch against forge fastexpand, i watched the replay and you lost a lot of drones and coul've lost even more with cannon micro =(.
well, im only diamond player so i wouldn't know that well.
you did great job in blocking the spot between the pylons to stop that cannon from being started.
from my experience toss kinda successfully manage to cover 2 cannon with pylons which is enough for your expansion to get kinda fucked =(.
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EPT
