EPT[G]Zerg vs Protoss delayed Lair - Page 3
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Sleight
2471 Posts
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ExquisiteRed
396 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 30 2011 23:27 VanillaSky wrote: First of all thanks for making the guide, I've been struggling with my zvp in masters league in the last couple of days. I'd like to ask few question. 1) I'm confused on when to get what upgrade. In the guide you specify to get carapace which makes sense since all protoss go for first +1. However, I'm not sure what upgrade to get next. Do I want to get the +2 carapace upgrade as precaution of +2? or maybe I want to upgrade my zerglings, maybe the roachs? 2) How well does roach hydra infestor fare with colossus vr deathballs from your experience? 3) If protoss goes for air, when is queens+spore enough and when do I need hydras? 4) If I go hydras vs air how I counter the inevitable colossus switch? 5) What is your endgame ideal army? Protoss can tech switch really easily when it comes to 4+ bases so its hard to respond to their army. Thank you very much. Ok I'll answer! 1. I would get +2 carapace and melee unless I am going some sort of roach/hydra play due to either early air or I am going to go for a bust. 2. Hmmmm Its actually not to bad because infestors are really strong vs that composition as long as you micro correctly but I would still prefer roach/ling/infestor with a few hydra's to kill the void rays. 3. Pretty much for any voidray play I make hydra's, if they are doing 2 stargate phoenix where they are just making 8+ phoenixes I actually just get my spire and get corruptors as hydra's can be picked off easily and what not. If its not so much air I get hydra's. By not much air I mean not to many phoenixes. 4. You shouldn't make to many hydra's, just enough to be able to take out the air or at least make it so you could if you engaged. You should either be going for infestors, or you can try for old roach/hydra/corruptors that choice is up to you. I personally go for infestors and go to roach/ling/infestor as my main composition and stop hydra production normally unless I am going for a bust. 5. Yes a 4 base protoss is really hard to play vs in general. What I do is I start off broodlords, with roach/ling/infestor/broodlord. If he holds I normally try again (while getting ultra's ready) then do an ultra/ling/broodlord/infestor attack or just ultra/ling/infestor once the broodlords die. Ultra's are actually a decent transition unit after broodlords as they do good vs colossi/stalker as long as you have fungels and all the upgrades. Hope this answers your questions .On August 31 2011 00:08 Beyond Magic wrote: heya, really helpful guide. im still kinda skeptic about 15 hatch against forge fastexpand, i watched the replay and you lost a lot of drones and coul've lost even more with cannon micro =(. well, im only diamond player so i wouldn't know that well. you did great job in blocking the spot between the pylons to stop that cannon from being started. from my experience toss kinda successfully manage to cover 2 cannon with pylons which is enough for your expansion to get kinda fucked =(. Ah you can hold off a lot better, I made some mistakes but luckily he did to so thats why I was able to live. I normally can hold cannon rushes off without taking to much drone losses. I had a couple but I can't find them anymore and I played those a couple days ago >>. I played a cannon rush yesterday where I lost 0 drones and held off but it was a really bad cannon rush but i'll upload anyway. But you can't make mistakes vs it or you do instant lose normally. I would never hatch first in a bo1 situation against protoss only bo3/5. On August 31 2011 00:20 Sleight wrote: One thing to consider with cannon rushes is how much they have to spend and delay their tech. I'd say if you lose only 1/2 to 3/4ths their mineral value investment, I think you are still comfortable. I 14 pool 16 hatch because I don't have someone good to cannon rush me again and again, so i like to avoid the issue, but that's also because the probe always seems to get to me by 15 anyways. Yeah if you don't take to much damage and they invest alot you are normally in a good situation. Normally probes get to me by 15 anyway so I 15 pool most of the time, but this week I have been hatch firsting a lot more because that probe has been so late which is weird. On August 31 2011 00:21 ExquisiteRed wrote: Hey Blade great guide as usual. I have a question thats unrelated to the build (which I've been using for a while since I watch your stream), since we hotkey hatcheries the same way I was wondering if you rebind the 8,9,0 keys to something else or if you just reach your fingers over/shift your hand closer to hit them. Because they're so far away I've been having problems accurately hitting those those keys and was just curious what you do. Also, unrelated do you keep the base of your left hand static on the table or should you let it move around a bit? Love the stream, keep up the good work .Thanks! Oh I just press ctrl +8/9/0 once those hatcheries are made I don't do anything special like prebind or prebind or anything (unless the drones on the way or something and I have nothing to do). Errr not really sure about the left hand question but I think my left hand moves around alot and not stuck on the table but not sure lol. Glad you enjoy the stream and guide thanks ^_^. | ||
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nehcnhoj
United States213 Posts
Just a few clarifications, I understand +1 Cara is simply a preference for you, though is there any reason behind it besides some Ps getting quick +1s? I've never tried cara, always gotten +1 melee. I actually get really greedy, if I have solid scouting in his base at the start and at his natural I'll actually put down my third before ling speed (differs map to map of course). I get gas roughly the same time you do, but put 2 drones in it and get speed when gas hits 100. I similarly don't believe investing 100/100 in ling speed too early is good. My slightly later ling speed gives me slightly more minerals really early, but I get lair and +1 attack a little faster than in your build (also depends on when I put a 3rd drone back in and when I get my 2nd gas and so forth). Transitions wise, I always make a mad dash to hive tech, I will get at most 4 infestors to stall and get a 4th base while trading with massive amounts of upgraded 2melee/2 ling roach. Infestors, I feel, are amazing defensive, but tend to be less effective and micro'd very sloppily when on the offensive. If the toss doesn't do 2 base 6-8gate heavy pressure or makes the mistake of being too passive because he's rushing up and turtling to a deathball I will throw down a bane nest and do bane drops, while rushing to hive tech and taking my 4th and 5th myself. My Ideal endgame depending on how the mid-game plays out is either where I'm ahead significantly in bases where the Toss feels he has to make 1 deathball push against me and I have broodlords roach ling infestor ready for an army trade where i transition into roach ling ultra for the kill, or I have broodlords ready to deny his 4th/5th or any base that will let him feel that he is on even econ with me, which forces him into the 1st scenario. I guess I'm focusing more on transition here, but then again, the ability to have this clear direction for mid-endgame all stems from the heavy mineral advantage from this awesome build though. Nice work. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:34 nehcnhoj wrote: Wonderful build, I've been doing a slightly varied version myself ZvP. Just a few clarifications, I understand +1 Cara is simply a preference for you, though is there any reason behind it besides some Ps getting quick +1s? I've never tried cara, always gotten +1 melee. I actually get really greedy, if I have solid scouting in his base at the start and at his natural I'll actually put down my third before ling speed (differs map to map of course). I get gas roughly the same time you do, but put 2 drones in it and get speed when gas hits 100. I similarly don't believe investing 100/100 in ling speed too early is good. My slightly later ling speed gives me slightly more minerals really early, but I get lair and +1 attack a little faster than in your build (also depends on when I put a 3rd drone back in and when I get my 2nd gas and so forth). Transitions wise, I always make a mad dash to hive tech, I will get at most 4 infestors to stall and get a 4th base while trading with massive amounts of upgraded 2melee/2 ling roach. Infestors, I feel, are amazing defensive, but tend to be less effective and micro'd very sloppily when on the offensive. If the toss doesn't do 2 base 6-8gate heavy pressure or makes the mistake of being too passive because he's rushing up and turtling to a deathball I will throw down a bane nest and do bane drops, while rushing to hive tech and taking my 4th and 5th myself. My Ideal endgame depending on how the mid-game plays out is either where I'm ahead significantly in bases where the Toss feels he has to make 1 deathball push against me and I have broodlords roach ling infestor ready for an army trade where i transition into roach ling ultra for the kill, or I have broodlords ready to deny his 4th/5th or any base that will let him feel that he is on even econ with me, which forces him into the 1st scenario. I guess I'm focusing more on transition here, but then again, the ability to have this clear direction for mid-endgame all stems from the heavy mineral advantage from this awesome build though. Nice work. Yeah i'm not a fan of a fast dive to hive tech unless they take a fast third base and you cant pressure it due to the architecture of the map and Force field. But yeah you can do whatever you want with the build I just wrote the transition I prefer and find strongest but I know other people who prefer ling/bane/infestor and stuff even though I well never do it I know others well This is just a really good start out :D | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 04 2011 13:02 TolEranceNA wrote: Blade, i hate to annoy you with so many questions, but, how would you react to alot of warp prism harasses play? Do you leave some army at base to deal with them? Yeah i'll send some roaches to stay back and defend where I think he's hitting or use queens if possible to kill them. If its later game where I have a spire because i'm going broodlords i'll make some corruptors and kill it then morph them into bl's. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
I have 3 new replays added that are not vs forge FE, there is a zealot/cannon rush in 2 of them and third game is kind of messy after 10 minutes but I believe he 1 or 3 gate expo'd can't remember off the top of my head. So here is the link: http://www.mediafire.com/?2te7h5nuhqnznqz | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
Do you think you can spend the first 100 gas on lair instead of speed, and defend with slow lings and spines, and then detection via overseer is only 50 gas? i think this is what zergs in the GSL are now doing | ||
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Gen_Syntax
25 Posts
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Brainiak
Germany91 Posts
When i see a fast third, i go double stargate after ffe. That is usually an auto win for me, unless i really mess up. How can you stop a double stargate with 4 voids + rallied phoenixes? I asked a friend of mine, a high level zerg and he said he stopped doing a super fast third because of double stargate. FYI: hydras arent really the solution, because the 6-8 phoenixes make short work of the lonely hydralisks | ||
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Gen_Syntax
25 Posts
On September 23 2011 22:37 Brainiak wrote: Just one question: When i see a fast third, i go double stargate after ffe. That is usually an auto win for me, unless i really mess up. How can you stop a double stargate with 4 voids + rallied phoenixes? I asked a friend of mine, a high level zerg and he said he stopped doing a super fast third because of double stargate. FYI: hydras arent really the solution, because the 6-8 phoenixes make short work of the lonely hydralisks this...can somebody give advise on the proper response? I really have trouble in dealing with this...i know a quick third is the response for toss forge first FE but I feel so contained when they go stargate... | ||
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alphaQ
14 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 23 2011 18:06 firehand101 wrote: Hey u dont have to bump this i read all of your posts! Do you think you can spend the first 100 gas on lair instead of speed, and defend with slow lings and spines, and then detection via overseer is only 50 gas? i think this is what zergs in the GSL are now doing Err I personally don't like not having speed ever especially vs 6 gate all in or something I think speedlings are quite good once the zealots are dead. On September 23 2011 22:37 Brainiak wrote: Just one question: When i see a fast third, i go double stargate after ffe. That is usually an auto win for me, unless i really mess up. How can you stop a double stargate with 4 voids + rallied phoenixes? I asked a friend of mine, a high level zerg and he said he stopped doing a super fast third because of double stargate. FYI: hydras arent really the solution, because the 6-8 phoenixes make short work of the lonely hydralisks Well I have held it by making spores and quiet a few queens. Sacrificing 2 overlords at the same time in locations so you can see most if not all the base so you can properly react to it. When toss goes 2 stargates they won't have a lot of anti air to kill the overlords fast enough so you should see both stargates if that is what they are doing. I have had this done to me a few times and I make extra spores + queens (again with this build you get a lot of minerals so this doesn't hurt also the 2 stargate heavy voidray/phoenix play is pretty all in if it fails you are guaranteed a win unless you mess up). I have only faced this like times and I won 2 out of the 3 times. Once was vs thewind (which I believe is one of the replays I didn't even scout and he did quiet a bit of damage killing my main hatchery to). On September 27 2011 00:18 alphaQ wrote: What are your thoughts on building drops into this build? I feel like especially vs FFE builds Zerg get to near full supply really fast, but are unable to put any kind of pressure because of how effective robo+ sentry turtle can be against roach ling. While you could just sit back and go straight to hive at this point, I feel it could be equally effective to just throw your cheap tier 1 roach ling armies at them with drops, to delay their expansions, while focusing on getting a stronger economy but delayed hive. Well drop play is never bad I don't see a problem with it but I would rather get a fasterish hive (again minerals won't be a problem so droning/expanding while going hive won't hurt and delay economy really) instead of drop. You can do lots of things after the initial opening but if toss is taking a third you can normally be aggressive to try and deny it or at least trade armies (which goes in favor of you heavily if you can kill most if not all of his you pretty much win). You could do that and drop play which would be good. Depends how you want to play you don't have to go a decent hive speed ^^. | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On September 27 2011 07:00 blade55555 wrote: Don't care for checking on forums on how good my grammar is. You shouldn't have to check. But whatever | ||
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