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On February 07 2012 01:02 Borskey wrote:
First off, what's the actual difference between the T&P vs Z hotkey files? I plan to not only adapt to your new hotkeys but also learn Zerg and Protoss (which I've never played before) so I can play as random. Looking through I haven't been able to figure out what the difference between the two setups actually is. I mean mechanically as in which keys do what: I can see that you have different recommendations for how to make use of the control groups. Is there any reason I shouldn't just use the T&P hotkey file with Zerg as well?
Get the Terran/Toss file and you're good, I haven't noticed any differences and if you do, you can change those things manually. Doesn't seem to be anything mutually exclusive in the setups.
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I'm a terran player and I've just started using darkgrid today, my first time using a new layout. So far I'm very impressed with the macro efficiency and accessibility of the control groups. I have 2 questions.
In the newest video you mentioned changing the attack command to W. When attempting to do this I've found that build SCV cannot be bound properly because of the attack command on the Planetary Fortress. I like having build SCV on W and the only solution I can come up with is to leave attack on A. Is there a reason that attack is moved to Q or W rather than A?
Also, I've noticed I am having trouble keeping track of what each control group is for, is there an easier way to remember these?
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Hi, I play random and have been using grid hotkeys in every RTS that allows you to edit hotkey configurations (inc. WC3). It appears as though there is one hotkey setup for Z and a different one for T and P. Assuming I have Mouse 4 and 5 available to be mapped:
Which should I download if I play R and why?
What sorts of modifications would I have to make to make it play well for all three races?
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Like 3 (colossi) back, shift, attack, and other groups, because ur hand is angled towards the inner of your keyboard (like advised and because of they hotkeys of course). My pinky is very agile already, never the less its quite difficult... Or am I doing something wrong? You should only tip your hand inward 3-8 degrees, ie, not very much. Find what lets you reach shift comfortably and use that.
It is strongly recommended that you use your layered cameras any time you're moving between bases. Faster, and better map awareness.
On February 07 2012 01:02 Borskey wrote:
First off, what's the actual difference between the T&P vs Z hotkey files? Extractor is placed on W, instead of F, in the zerg layout. ...Aaand that's it. F (build) W is much easier to strike than FF, so gateways and Rax (the most frequent P and T structures) are assigned there, with gasses on FF. But since the zerg don't make that many roach warrens, it's better to have gas on F W for them.
So yes, the T and P layout is for random players.
Jengo, this one is for your question, too:Also, is there any good reason why Q is attack? I've switched it to W as suggested in your Terran interview. I had to switch SCVs to Q though, because otherwise it overloads the keys for the Planetary Fortress. Your fingers rest on Q and W (as well as E and F). Since abilities are on E and F, and attack is the most frequently used unit command, so it should be on Q and W to reduce movement necessary, increasing speed and lowering strain. I personally find attack on Q very comfortable, but I use hold position stutter step for marine micro (which, not that I think about it, I could use stop to and it might be a bit better). In any case, stop or hold, using those so stutter step is about twice as efficient.
In a normal attack move stutter step you:
1)Click a move location
2)Select attack
3)Click an attack location
And then repeat. With stop micro you:
1)Click a move location.
2)Stop.
And then repeat. But that's only a third less steps! you say. Yes, but since you have to execute less steps in than short amount of time, it makes it much easier, and much less straining, especailly if, when using the attack move stutter step, you're clicking the attack location toward the enemy and the move loocation away from the enemy. With stop, this happens automatically: nearby enemies aggro (make themselves a target to be attacked) by the marines out of firing range. So now all you do is keep your mouse on the retreating side of the marines and alternate clicking your mouse and stop.
It will take a about 20 minutes of practice to get used to, since it's so much easier you'll start and stop faster than your marines can fire.
One last thing: any progress on those tutorial videos "That's so raven" is going to make? I don't have his youtube channel or anything. He hasn't updated me on any progress. When they are done there will be an announcement post and red text in the OP saying so.
Edit: ok, real last thing: Do you know how "final" this setup is? I mean, is there stuff you're already thinking about changing, like making more use of mouse buttons? Most people don't have more than five mouse buttons, and I don't like using the mouse wheel click for anything. It seriously reduces accuracy. Though I think everyone who can should place ctrl and alt on their mouse for this layout.
As for how final thing are, the following changes are in review:
1) Swiching Hold Possition and Stop commands. Stop on S is a hangover from when I was trying to make Darkgrid easier to switch to. Since I've abandoned that in favor of maximum efficiency, swappins it's possition to W may be optimal. Likely.
2) Moving command structures (CC, Nexus, Hatchery) construction to FF, and putting all gas construction on F Q. This removes the need for seperate zerg hotkeys, and since command structures are produced less frequetly than gas structures, is more efficent. However, misclicking FF is much easier than FQ, and an accidently produced command structure has a very high cost, (75-100 minerals), where gas structures cannot be misplaced -- unless you're incredibly dense. Likely.
3) Swiching attack from Q to W. Unlikely, instead avocating the use of stop stutter step micro.
4) Reaserching a) whether or not it is possible, and b) whether or not it is benificial to battle micro to layer the arrow keys into the layout. When microing lategame armies that span more than the screen, one has to move their mouse all the way to the edge of the screen to adjust their view, and then move the mouse back to center to resume micro. Placing the burden of viewport adjustmenton the left hand, as we do now with camera commands for base management, may allow for improved performance in occasional lategame scenarios. Unlikely (due to the limits of the keyboard, but if I find a way to overcome it...).
5) Trying to find a better place for the warpgate key. Kind of ticks me off that protoss gets an extra hotkey  . I mean, before it didn't matter since practically no protoss used all of their control groups, but man oh man what I could do with an extra control group for terran (zergs don't really need it, what with only one production facility. It's exactly like having one more. Wow, I guess it's pretty much terran with the short stick here.) But, the best place to put warpgates is on the mouse, and that means creating a protoss specific layout, or all protoss having an extra mouse key. Were trying to go for unification, here...
I will continue to make improvements as I find them, but most will probably be small optimizations, and not worth the effort to relearn. The only thing right now keeping 1.3 from being "official" is those likely changes and getting good training vids up.
I made one modification: I bound my mousewheel click (I've got another button if that's inconvenient) to alt, because I find holding alt+ctrl kind of awkward sometimes. I fing using the mousewheel click sugnificantly reduces accuracy. Have you overcome this somehow? If so, this will be a great addition.
I hope these aren't stupid questions; it's just that you've obviously put a lot of thought into this and I don't want to screw up some subtlety that I didn't even notice. No, they aren't, and I'm glad you asked! I'm also very glad you're wary of screwing up unseen subtleties, that really makes me smile.
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4) Reaserching a) whether or not it is possible, and b) whether or not it is benificial to battle micro to layer the arrow keys into the layout. When microing lategame armies that span more than the screen, one has to move their mouse all the way to the edge of the screen to adjust their view, and then move the mouse back to center to resume micro. Placing the burden of viewport adjustmenton the left hand, as we do now with camera commands for base management, may allow for improved performance in occasional lategame scenarios. Unlikely (due to the limits of the keyboard, but if I find a way to overcome it...).
Mm, the original use of the mousewheel click makes it so that you don't have to move your mouse to the edge of the screen. Simply hold it down, and then moving your mouse instantly moves your screen around. Since you hate that button though, you could try binding that function to, say, ctrl+z? I never got used to using that function, but I always figured that it would be marginally faster.
Edit: Or just B? with the layered cameras, is there any need for "Cycle Base Cam"?
I fing using the mousewheel click sugnificantly reduces accuracy. Have you overcome this somehow? If so, this will be a great addition.
I've used mouse buttons for a long time in games, so I'm probably more used to it than others. I've never played a game that required super accuracy with the mouse though, and since I haven't really played much with this setup (I have a splinter under my left index fingernail right now) I can't say whether it's a huge pain or not. It is a little bit awkward to hold it down and left-click since I'm used to pressing it with my index finger, but I can click it with my middle finger just as quickly. It just feels a little awkward doing it. I might switch alt to be my mouse4 though, and the put cc/tech on mousewheel click. The only thing is, my right thumb is a little fucked up and holding it down feels uncomfortable for me. Pressing with it is just fine though.
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On February 07 2012 05:42 FoxyMayhem wrote:Show nested quote +Like 3 (colossi) back, shift, attack, and other groups, because ur hand is angled towards the inner of your keyboard (like advised and because of they hotkeys of course). My pinky is very agile already, never the less its quite difficult... Or am I doing something wrong? You should only tip your hand inward 3-8 degrees, ie, not very much. Find what lets you reach shift comfortably and use that. It is strongly recommended that you use your layered cameras any time you're moving between bases. Faster, and better map awareness.
Thanks for the tip.
I have another idea looking at players who use Snipiing via mouse-scroll-leftclick:
Why not use mousewheel-up and -down for more hotkeys? Every mouse has this function, and you realy don't need to zoom in or out in starcraft 2 unless you are playing the campaign and want to enjoy the grafics, hmm and sometimes you zoom in to detect observers but I personally don't use that I just look on the screen).
So for example put Robo on Mouse-up and Stargate on Mouse-down. ?
And if you are one of the guys who like to use scroll-leftclick-sniping then just use mousewheel-up for the sniping and -down for production facilities, that's a whole new key freed up. The advantage here is. You don't need accuracy for production facilities so pressing this doesn't disable you at all.
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I tried using B and I really liked it. Really good idea.
But with testing, it took the mouse out of operation, even hiding it, which is less than ideal in a battle micro situation. And, since the cursor doesn't move while you're manipulating the view port location, afterward, moving my hand to what used to bring me to the minimap no longer did. Use this method enough times and you have to pick up the mouse from the pad and recenter it. My mouse handles this exceptionally well, but not all mice will. The accuracy loss, the dislocation of the cursor relative to the mouse, the time where the cursor cannot be aimed, and the strain of lifting and recentering the mouse for CT suffers forces me to rule this option out.
However, I found that increasing my edge-of-screen scroll speed to 100 (from 75) works quite well, and avoids all the issues that the other method presents. It also works well in tandem with the base cams.
I find alt very difficult to bind on my mouse... testing is delayed. I worry for whether others will have the same problem. I can't provide support for every mouse.
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Feedback Regarding your discussion about the middle-mousebutton: I don't use it for camera moving neither (as foxymayhem) I find moving my cam to the edge of the screen faster. .. ok I should do my real life work now.. this hotkey layout is too interesting :S
However, I found that increasing my edge-of-screen scroll speed to 100 (from 75) works quite well, and avoids all the issues that the other method presents. It also works well in tandem with the base cams.
Yes I am watching streams regularly. And one big advantage I see was in destinies playstyle - he has a very high edge-of-screen scroll speed. He was soo fast. Then I watched a terran playing and he was soo slow - I think it was Jinro - I tried to contact him to increase the play... I realy think people should try to find their max speed here. I have 82 atm. 88 is a little bit too much.
Btw I posted one second before you..
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On February 07 2012 14:24 FoxyMayhem wrote:
The accuracy loss, the dislocation of the cursor relative to the mouse, the time where the cursor cannot be aimed, and the strain of lifting and recentering the mouse for CT suffers forces me to rule this option out.
I always figured it would be the sort of thing that would feel really clumsy at first, but eventually would feel even more natural than "scooting" the screen around.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't scrolling to the edge of the screen prevent you from using your mouse in any way other than navigating the screen? Does it not also affect your accuracy? Does it not also decenter your mouse slightly? (you hit the edge, and then keep moving your mouse to scoot the screen over but the cursor doesn't move with it)
There is an option to turn up the sensitivity for the "drag-scrolling" as well.
Like I said, it's not something I've used at all, but I think I'm going to switch to it while I am learning the hotkeys, just to try it out. I suspect it's something you might have to spend a long time getting used to.
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If you have your queens all in the same controlgroup and injects all hatcherys and one queen is dead, you can forget that the queen in your main goes to your natural or something like that? I dislike this.
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Extractor is placed on W, instead of F, in the zerg layout. ...Aaand that's it. F (build) W is much easier to strike than FF, so gateways and Rax (the most frequent P and T structures) are assigned there, with gasses on FF. But since the zerg don't make that many roach warrens, it's better to have gas on F W for them.
When I try the T&P layout it seem like zerg still builds their extractor with W, so wouldn't the two layout files be exactly the same? Or am I missing something?
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@dabosaur Of course you can forget your queen not being there. I don't know the exact method, thou have to wait for foxymayhem to be sure.
But from my experience you will still see wether you have a queen there, if not, just don't click on the hatch (seems to be your habit to fast click on it). When you don't have the good memory or are under pressure just slow down a bit in your "gameplay". Thinking > fast clicking  But I can't evaluate your situation fully. maybe using the idra-method is better for you..
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Hey FoxyMayhem I wanted to ask you one thing.
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I'm astonished about the optimization and well thought out habits you would train wiht your DarkGrid 1.3. But I also notced that the anatomie of my hand And/Or my keyboard are not well suit for this layout... So I am going to do my own layout but using your ideas (). Could you give me some starter tipps how you developed your grid and how you explored all the priorities? There is alot of obvious stuff but it's not that easy to find the best combination.. Actually I read you were talking about the difficulties quite a bit. For example you could enlarge how you found F as optimal center ability-key and created all the groups around it..
I'm expecting alot of tying and changing after developing such stuff as you did here with player feedback.
I also read that you realy recommend using ctrl and alt on the mouse (if it would be "allowed") could you explain the advantages of using strg / alt on the mouse over using it for nexus and production, which seems to be pretty good too?
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On February 07 2012 15:21 Borskey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 14:24 FoxyMayhem wrote:
The accuracy loss, the dislocation of the cursor relative to the mouse, the time where the cursor cannot be aimed, and the strain of lifting and recentering the mouse for CT suffers forces me to rule this option out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't scrolling to the edge of the screen prevent you from using your mouse in any way other than navigating the screen? Does it not also affect your accuracy? Does it not also decenter your mouse slightly? (you hit the edge, and then keep moving your mouse to scoot the screen over but the cursor doesn't move with it) ...
If you are used to it it doesn't limit you at all. the only thing that limits you is the scroll speed on-edge-of-the screen in the matter you can't be scrolling fast enough (using 82% though). It is just like 50ms that you are using edge-scrolling after that your mouse is ready. I feel like using the mouse-wheel takes more time.
But missing scientific evidence I'd say it's personal feeling and mainly a mouse thingy (!! I think there are quite good middle-key mouses, and alot are not) although there may be more reasons .. You would need a few players who tried out both equally for an extended time, setup statistics for certain macroing and microing situations and evaulate the results.
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That sounds like a conversation for a skype call. Introduce yourself as from the forums or I'll probably block you.
psalm.of.fire
I'd prefer to figure out why it's not working for you, and resolve that, but we can go into design philosophy as well.
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Realy nice offer... I'd prefer maybe some hints here in the forum. Need to think about it a bit (which needs some time)!
"I'd prefer to figure out.." Looks like you want DarkGrid to be perfect.. OR want to know why s.o.'s not pleased and of course you want to help.
I'm also just interested about the design process just not for myself but about you. Because I like optimzing and people who do that and not go with the default all day. But some Hints here for a start are enough. I'm still trying to figure out my issue by myself.
Ps: Feedback about the #1 Post. I'd like to see an introduction what DarkGrid is generally. I was kind of confused when first visiting this thread
Ps: I want to recommend "Uncel Micro test" as best micro training map that I know (setup any army in seconds vs ai or player). Realy good for those many group hotkeys recommended.
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Uh, you want me to give you "hints" about design, but not actually explain it, and you want to know about me personally?
I take it English is your second language, so perhaps you're against a skype call because your verbal comprehension is a little low? I can understand that, but with my wrist problems, I don't want to type it all out.
Here's the main goals when I designed: 1) Minimize hand movement, 2) alteration, or, when doing several common actions, design the layout so you use the same fingers or hands one after the other (I don't but barracks on F F because that's slower than F W). The actions that need to be done faster, even if they're not common, are made easy. That has to be balanced with the most common actions, which also have to be easy.
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Are there any pro's who have given feedback on this? As an aspiring pro-gamer myself i don't want to be learning a whole new hotkey layout only to find that it is in-adequate for professional play.
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No pros have tried it, but I have clear data that this is better (injection speeds, drop response, two-pronged attack execution, all easily measurable and show clear improvement). You'll be giving yourself an edge if you learn it. And beside, just think it through: all the controls are on the left size of the keyboard, which means you don't have to reach for them. That alone means it's better than standard, and it's only of a dozen major design improvements.
Most of the controls rest directly under the fingers, which reduces click time from 320-600 miliseconds down to 20-80.
The layout uses alliteration, which reduces spell execution time (selecting a ghost, selecting EMP, aiming, firing) from approximately 800 miliseconds down to approximately 340 miliseconds (assuming your very fast at aiming, making the major execution bottleneck is finger travel time). How many camera keys do you regularly use? Amaterasu used to use none, but since switching, he now averages 5-8 in a macro game. These keys can literally cut off 1300 miliseconds of response time, assuming you were fast to begin with. If you are slow, then it shaves off even more.
And control groups, terran and protoss benefit amazingly from full use of their control groups. Micro, according to masters players, is soooo much easier.
It's up to you to decide if you want to play it, but if you practice well and push the layout to its full potential, you bet your ballsack (assuming you have one) this will make you a better player.
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Chiming in on using the middle mouse button:
Day9 absolutely recommends that you use the middle-mouse button scrolling instead of edge scrolling. Not that his word is the absolute truth, but he does have some merit because of his experience. Also, I really dislike using the screen edge for scrolling around, it takes away my cursor from the center of action to the edge and I keep having to move it all over just to look at things instead of having it more or less constantly centered and ready for action.
Speed is not really a problem as it is affected by the speed of your mouse, which is my case is pretty high. It really is personal preference though, but I use it and for me it is by far superior to screen edge scrolling because of the accuracy. I always know where my cursor is relative to the position on the screen.
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Hi, this is an interesting read.
For Protoss layout 1.3 mouseless separate production there is no hotkey for Colossus anymore, while the other layouts do? How would you handle Colossus movement using this method?
Also, for the same layout, why is R = Stalker, T = Templar, Y = zealot? I would have thought T = zealot, Y = Templar instead since you use zealots more often? Many games you don't even get to use Templar since its late game? What is your reasoning behind that setup?
Thanks!!
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EPT
