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[G] Darkgrid Layout - Page 18

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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RemarK
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States452 Posts
February 18 2012 00:24 GMT
#341
Trying it out - top masters Protoss. Everything seems pretty straightforward except getting used to select warp gates. Does anyone have a better / more convenient key than 6?
I <3 StarCraft.
Impsux
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1 Post
February 18 2012 01:05 GMT
#342
On February 18 2012 09:24 soLremarK wrote:
Trying it out - top masters Protoss. Everything seems pretty straightforward except getting used to select warp gates. Does anyone have a better / more convenient key than 6?

try capslock
RemarK
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States452 Posts
February 18 2012 02:40 GMT
#343
hmmm, overall pretty cute idea but I don't think it's worth it, especially for anyone more than a month into the game.

Your average player (Protoss at least) is better off just readjusting standard keys a bit
I <3 StarCraft.
sondrizzle
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway15 Posts
February 19 2012 01:45 GMT
#344
On February 18 2012 11:40 soLremarK wrote:
hmmm, overall pretty cute idea but I don't think it's worth it, especially for anyone more than a month into the game.

Your average player (Protoss at least) is better off just readjusting standard keys a bit

Did you even put an effort into trying it? It's miles ahead the standard layout, especially the layered base cameras.
uoeahtns
Profile Joined February 2012
52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-19 04:13:52
February 19 2012 04:13 GMT
#345
My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.

Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.

NTTemplar
Profile Joined August 2011
609 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-19 13:01:18
February 19 2012 12:50 GMT
#346
On February 18 2012 11:40 soLremarK wrote:
hmmm, overall pretty cute idea but I don't think it's worth it, especially for anyone more than a month into the game.

Your average player (Protoss at least) is better off just readjusting standard keys a bit


I can only assume the reason you're saying it isn't worth it for anyone more than a month into the game, is because you assume relearning hotkeys is hard. Which 99.99% of players think they could never do.

But it is all just about relearning muscle memory which will take a week with a few hours each day of practice.
I just switched to it from a modified standard setup and I have played since start of beta, and I notice it is far better than any modified standard alleready, reason I am never afraid of changing hotkeys is because I am used to many and vastly changed hotkey setups from WoW.
Where I bound every bandage, drink, spell, pets abilities and what not, if it in any remote way could be used in PvP it was bound. And many times I completely changed the position of everythiing for various reasons.

Realizing hotkeys can always be relearned in a shorttime is always important for making a switch.
"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"
NTTemplar
Profile Joined August 2011
609 Posts
February 19 2012 12:58 GMT
#347
On February 19 2012 13:13 uoeahtns wrote:
My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.

Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.



How is f1 faster than alt-q? alt-q is done in one motion, and is a shorter distance than F1. With many modern gaming keyboards the F keys even got a gap between them and rest of the keys like on my steelseries 7g.

NOTE: Despite alt-q being faster it takes a ton of practice to get it down, and I am looking for a way to swap my alt and space keys into different shapes (where the keys are changed to an alt key that takes up the left 1/4 of the space). For gaming in general I want this change though, no need for that small of an alt and that big a space. Many games currently use the alt in some rather significant way.

However f-f I agree is not optimal hence why I customized it for myself to be different, but that is the kind of feedback the creator wants I feel as to make it even better.

All building hotkeys should in my opinion be "building hotkey+a different hotkey" as it is just far faster and less straining on the body to do.
"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"
uoeahtns
Profile Joined February 2012
52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-19 16:41:35
February 19 2012 16:41 GMT
#348
On February 19 2012 21:58 NTTemplar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 13:13 uoeahtns wrote:
My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.

Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.



How is f1 faster than alt-q? alt-q is done in one motion, and is a shorter distance than F1. With many modern gaming keyboards the F keys even got a gap between them and rest of the keys like on my steelseries 7g.


I think usage of F1-F8 for location hotkeys will vary between different people. I for one find it much easier to simply extend my middle finger and hit F1 ( People with smaller hands than me will find trouble with this) than it is to bring in my thumb and press two keys instead of one.

NTTemplar
Profile Joined August 2011
609 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-21 17:22:19
February 21 2012 17:21 GMT
#349
On February 20 2012 01:41 uoeahtns wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 21:58 NTTemplar wrote:
On February 19 2012 13:13 uoeahtns wrote:
My take on the darkgrid hotkey setup is that there are parts of it that are flat out better than other hotkey setups, but it seems to have been designed to be easy/convenient as opposed to fast. For example, It is much faster to press f1 than alt-q, but alt-q requires less hand movement and is more friendly to a newer player. Another example is building gases, It is much faster to press f-x than f-f, but pressing f-f requires less finger movement.

Also, the idea behind shifting all of the building unit production hotkeys to the left side and using r,t,g,v,and space as hotkeys 1,2,6,7,and 8 was a very interesting concept. I personally have a completely personalized hotkey setup, but many of the ideas came from darkgrid.



How is f1 faster than alt-q? alt-q is done in one motion, and is a shorter distance than F1. With many modern gaming keyboards the F keys even got a gap between them and rest of the keys like on my steelseries 7g.


I think usage of F1-F8 for location hotkeys will vary between different people. I for one find it much easier to simply extend my middle finger and hit F1 ( People with smaller hands than me will find trouble with this) than it is to bring in my thumb and press two keys instead of one.



The motion is simpler, not faster.

It takes a greater amount of practice to be faster with alt+q can F1, true. But after practicing you are doing less motion for the same result, which makes it reverse of what you claimed it to be, making it F1 would be friendly towards newer players, alt+q is less friendly, but with practice faster.

Having long fingers I know pressing Fkeys is easy, but having played piano for many years I know that the less movement, the faster it is, but some less comfortable motions take practice to achieve that benefit from when compared to the easier choices, that at first does better but fails to keep up in the longer run.
"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
February 21 2012 21:26 GMT
#350
Amazing setup.

I'm a mid zerg player on EU, and I've been using this for a month or so.
I really like the inject system, and hotkey setup in general.
control+alt+qwdfas is just so fluent, my injects have gotten so much better lategame where before I wouldn't have the time, now it only takes about a second to inject (usually for me) 4 hatches.

The only problem I still have (mainly my fault) is when I'm trying to have multiple control groups of ling/bane to deal with drops or whatever, my brain has trouble not using R for everything. I haven't used the 1 and 2 keys for camera much yet, but that's something that I'll be working on soon.

Thanks alot! gl hf gg
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
sondrizzle
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway15 Posts
February 21 2012 23:03 GMT
#351
On February 22 2012 02:21 NTTemplar wrote:
The motion is simpler, not faster.

It takes a greater amount of practice to be faster with alt+q can F1, true. But after practicing you are doing less motion for the same result, which makes it reverse of what you claimed it to be, making it F1 would be friendly towards newer players, alt+q is less friendly, but with practice faster.

Having long fingers I know pressing Fkeys is easy, but having played piano for many years I know that the less movement, the faster it is, but some less comfortable motions take practice to achieve that benefit from when compared to the easier choices, that at first does better but fails to keep up in the longer run.

I really disagree with you, and I've played piano for a lot of years.

First off, the biggest issue I have is with the whole speed thing. Mostly because speed isn't everything, sure, it might help, but in this case it really is. Furthermore, the amount of reach you have to do to reach the F-keys is a lot for people who aren't that used to long movements. And I think your claim that F1 is faster than Alt+Q is really far out, I know for sure that I can press Alt+Q faster than F1 simply because I do a lot less movement pressing it compared to F1. You are allowed to use more than one finger at all times you know

And the other thing is that when you reach out to press F1 you are putting your hands of the "command keys", moving your entire hand away from the position were the rest of the keys are. And this just comes back to the fact that the motion for pressing F1 requires more movement than pressing Alt+Q.

I don't know what kind of keyboard you use for typing and piano for playing, because I think you are dead on wrong. The difference in speed is minuscule, and I wager that Alt+Q is faster than F1. Furthermore, speed isn't everything. Alt+Q stays true to the whole everything under one hand design that Darkgrid has. The amount of movement required for F1 is more than Alt+Q. All in all, I think the current solution is a lot, lot better than using F1. Mostly because you cannot do the layered base cams the same way on the F1 keys that you can with Alt+#. Sure, maybe you could move 1 & 2 to F1 and F2, but I don't feel it would even be beneficial.
uoeahtns
Profile Joined February 2012
52 Posts
February 22 2012 02:44 GMT
#352
As a response to the above post, I stand by my statement that different people will be faster with different hotkeys. For me, personally, I credit F1 being faster for me simply due to the way I position my hand on the keyboard. The number hotkeys are at my normal hand position and I reach down to press shortcuts and up to reach the F keys.

I think that you guys are right, less movement is faster, but for me, pressing F1 is less movement that alt-q, although It may not be the case for many others.

However, Pressing something like F6 is much harder than alt-f, and I realize that, but I find F1-F3 more convenient than alt-q-d and I find being able to use the first three base cams more conveniently is more beneficial than the last three.

Just to be sure, I am not saying that alt-q in general is slower than F1, I am just saying that with the way I position my hand on the keyboard F1 is faster than alt-q. I would liken it to the fact that pressing a is faster than pressing p, but not if your hand is on the right side of the keyboard. (Although not as extreme, of course!)
sondrizzle
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway15 Posts
February 22 2012 04:00 GMT
#353
In that case I agree, it really depends upon the person as to what works best. I didn't really consider the way you positioned your hand considering I think most people place their hands directly below the number keys. Anyways, it's a good thing we can modify this to our liking then. Cheers mate!
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
February 22 2012 08:56 GMT
#354
On February 22 2012 11:44 uoeahtns wrote:
As a response to the above post, I stand by my statement that different people will be faster with different hotkeys. For me, personally, I credit F1 being faster for me simply due to the way I position my hand on the keyboard. The number hotkeys are at my normal hand position and I reach down to press shortcuts and up to reach the F keys.

I think that you guys are right, less movement is faster, but for me, pressing F1 is less movement that alt-q, although It may not be the case for many others.

However, Pressing something like F6 is much harder than alt-f, and I realize that, but I find F1-F3 more convenient than alt-q-d and I find being able to use the first three base cams more conveniently is more beneficial than the last three.

Just to be sure, I am not saying that alt-q in general is slower than F1, I am just saying that with the way I position my hand on the keyboard F1 is faster than alt-q. I would liken it to the fact that pressing a is faster than pressing p, but not if your hand is on the right side of the keyboard. (Although not as extreme, of course!)


Just because two fingers move instead of one doesn't mean you should add the movement of both fingers together.

The whole idea is though that your setup in general is much much faster, instead of "action y in this setup is slower than then action y I do."
The reason the screen hotkeys work so well, is because its amazing for injects with zerg for example.
If you're T or P, it's still less motion, and therefore once you get used to it, faster.
alt q-w-d feels better because with this hotkey setup, your hands are already in place to do this, since your thumb is on space all game. Don't cherry pick one idea of the setup and explain why it doesn't work for you.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
February 22 2012 15:54 GMT
#355
If his hands are not in the recommended positions, then much of the layout does not work optimally, The layered cameras worst of all. It makes sense that he would single them out.

This thread has made a fun read when I get a chance to check it (travelling at the moment.) Carry on, Gents!
NTTemplar
Profile Joined August 2011
609 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 20:47:29
February 22 2012 20:33 GMT
#356
On February 22 2012 08:03 sondrizzle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2012 02:21 NTTemplar wrote:
The motion is simpler, not faster.

It takes a greater amount of practice to be faster with alt+q can F1, true. But after practicing you are doing less motion for the same result, which makes it reverse of what you claimed it to be, making it F1 would be friendly towards newer players, alt+q is less friendly, but with practice faster.

Having long fingers I know pressing Fkeys is easy, but having played piano for many years I know that the less movement, the faster it is, but some less comfortable motions take practice to achieve that benefit from when compared to the easier choices, that at first does better but fails to keep up in the longer run.

I really disagree with you, and I've played piano for a lot of years.

First off, the biggest issue I have is with the whole speed thing. Mostly because speed isn't everything, sure, it might help, but in this case it really is. Furthermore, the amount of reach you have to do to reach the F-keys is a lot for people who aren't that used to long movements. And I think your claim that F1 is faster than Alt+Q is really far out, I know for sure that I can press Alt+Q faster than F1 simply because I do a lot less movement pressing it compared to F1. You are allowed to use more than one finger at all times you know

And the other thing is that when you reach out to press F1 you are putting your hands of the "command keys", moving your entire hand away from the position were the rest of the keys are. And this just comes back to the fact that the motion for pressing F1 requires more movement than pressing Alt+Q.

I don't know what kind of keyboard you use for typing and piano for playing, because I think you are dead on wrong. The difference in speed is minuscule, and I wager that Alt+Q is faster than F1. Furthermore, speed isn't everything. Alt+Q stays true to the whole everything under one hand design that Darkgrid has. The amount of movement required for F1 is more than Alt+Q. All in all, I think the current solution is a lot, lot better than using F1. Mostly because you cannot do the layered base cams the same way on the F1 keys that you can with Alt+#. Sure, maybe you could move 1 & 2 to F1 and F2, but I don't feel it would even be beneficial.


Wait.. what just happened? First I thought you miss quoted me, but then you go on to relate to my piano playing, since the other guy didn't mention piano I can only assume you ment to quote me.. But my entire post means the same as yours, I do not quite understand what you are disagreeing on.

You just said the same as me in only slightly different words.

However I disagree on the difference in speed being minuscule, I believe alt+q got a significant speed advantage over F1, the amount of times the hotkey is used in a normal game easily gains you seconds of time over the other (which is significant, even more so considering how small a thing it is, for such a small thing to gain you seconds in a game is a big deal, hell it is the whole point of an optimized hotkey setup).
"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"
NTTemplar
Profile Joined August 2011
609 Posts
February 22 2012 20:44 GMT
#357
On February 22 2012 11:44 uoeahtns wrote:
As a response to the above post, I stand by my statement that different people will be faster with different hotkeys. For me, personally, I credit F1 being faster for me simply due to the way I position my hand on the keyboard. The number hotkeys are at my normal hand position and I reach down to press shortcuts and up to reach the F keys.

I think that you guys are right, less movement is faster, but for me, pressing F1 is less movement that alt-q, although It may not be the case for many others.

However, Pressing something like F6 is much harder than alt-f, and I realize that, but I find F1-F3 more convenient than alt-q-d and I find being able to use the first three base cams more conveniently is more beneficial than the last three.

Just to be sure, I am not saying that alt-q in general is slower than F1, I am just saying that with the way I position my hand on the keyboard F1 is faster than alt-q. I would liken it to the fact that pressing a is faster than pressing p, but not if your hand is on the right side of the keyboard. (Although not as extreme, of course!)



It is just not defendable too say Fkeys are faster than alt+q,w,e,a,s,d (or well q,w,d,a,s,f), at least on any keyboard I have seen.

Your hand moves far away from the center of keys, even if you manage to make that single action of F1 equally fast as alt+q you will still be slower when we add in subsequent actions since you are suddenly going up to F1 and then back down again compared to alt+q staying in the center all the time.

As indicated, I have no doubt that you do Fkeys faster than alt+x, but that is due to lack of practice with alt+x not because Fkeys are faster.

A simple and slightly extreme example would be for someone to say one drop is better than two, because when he only drops one place he can micro those units so much better and get a lot more done, but when he drops two places he doesn't manage to properly micro either, hence 1 drop is better. But as is well known, the more places you can drop at once the better, but it takes practice to reach the ability to do so.
"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"
sondrizzle
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway15 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-23 01:25:11
February 23 2012 00:46 GMT
#358
On February 23 2012 05:33 NTTemplar wrote:
Wait.. what just happened? First I thought you miss quoted me, but then you go on to relate to my piano playing, since the other guy didn't mention piano I can only assume you ment to quote me.. But my entire post means the same as yours, I do not quite understand what you are disagreeing on.

You just said the same as me in only slightly different words.

However I disagree on the difference in speed being minuscule, I believe alt+q got a significant speed advantage over F1, the amount of times the hotkey is used in a normal game easily gains you seconds of time over the other (which is significant, even more so considering how small a thing it is, for such a small thing to gain you seconds in a game is a big deal, hell it is the whole point of an optimized hotkey setup).

Uh. I thought you were the one that answered directly below me. I are confused.

I read your post in a different way than you intended, so well, sorry. I thought you were saying that F1 was faster than Alt+#, not the other way around. I think the difference is small, unless you are doing injects or quickly looking at multiple bases. Selecting just one base, at least for me, has very little difference between F1 and Alt+Q. Anyways, seems we agree either way.

Edit: thought, not taught
MalditoKyo
Profile Joined October 2010
France76 Posts
February 25 2012 15:24 GMT
#359
Hi there!

I'm trying to make this work but my keyboard is a "azerty" one and i'm struggling to get everything as you described!

Can you please make a azerty one? It will help a lot of other players i think!

Thank you very much for your awesome work!
lukasdesign
Profile Joined April 2011
Switzerland93 Posts
February 27 2012 12:44 GMT
#360
If I may make one suggestion: remove stim from f.

F is the most pressed button in this layout and it is just a matter of time until u stim all your marines by accident. this mistake may very well cost you an entire game.

Or if you select a couple of workers and by accident a lonely marine left behind in the workerline after a muta harrass...your workers will not start building after hitting F but your poor marine will be overdosed with stim.

I think a great layout also has to forgive missclicks!
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