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On March 16 2012 19:31 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 19:15 asdir wrote:
Couldn't find the answer somewhere in this thread, so here goes:
With this layout, am I supposed to handle my groups on R and V both with the index finger or is it R with the middle and V with the index finger?
If the second, wouldn't that mean there are three different hand positions for this layout? One where I have my thumb on space and the others on QWEF, a second where I have thumb on alt and others on QWD while pinky free for shift and a third where I have my hand even more tilted so that index and middle can reach R and V at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I know what feels better for me. I am just wondering about the concept. I use index for both R and V, that's how you do it with touch typing so it makes perfect sense... why would you ever want to press them at the same time?
The whole point of it being R and V is to easily control both groups at the same time, and they definetely should be taken by seperate fingers, that is a huge jump for a single finger to make and way slower than using middle and index.
So yes asdir, middle on R and index on V.
EDIT: I believe I was wrong about this part, edited out.
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Hm, I never thought about it before, but you are right, there are three hand possitions. A use my index for R and V most of the time, keeping the QWEFSpace possition, and switch over to Middle on R index on V when executing a two-pronged harass. You can switch back and forth between two drops ungodly fast.
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Hi, i just switchted to darkgrid and i really like it. is there any reasoning behind the camera hotkeys being qwasdf, in my opion e and r is much more comfortable than a and s, so i changed that
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On March 18 2012 01:26 oberheini wrote:
Hi, i just switchted to darkgrid and i really like it. is there any reasoning behind the camera hotkeys being qwasdf, in my opion e and r is much more comfortable than a and s, so i changed that
The reason why the location hotkeys are qwdasf is because r is a hotkey, and the way your hand is supposed to be positioned it would be better to use alt to assign hotkeys instead of control. The problem with e, for zerg players, is that e is the larva inject shortcut and putting e as a location hotkey might cause problems with the inject system that darkgrid uses.
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On March 18 2012 05:03 uoeahtns wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 01:26 oberheini wrote:
Hi, i just switchted to darkgrid and i really like it. is there any reasoning behind the camera hotkeys being qwasdf, in my opion e and r is much more comfortable than a and s, so i changed that The reason why the location hotkeys are qwdasf is because r is a hotkey, and the way your hand is supposed to be positioned it would be better to use alt to assign hotkeys instead of control. The problem with e, for zerg players, is that e is the larva inject shortcut and putting e as a location hotkey might cause problems with the inject system that darkgrid uses.
I actually changed it from qwdasf to qweasd, no problems with inject being E, didn't even think about it before you mentioned it 
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I can already tell this will effect my play positively. Although I have a razer naga this will improve mouse accuracy and help with apm due to how I've changed the camera functions to the side buttons (they're on the num pad mode). So now I'll develop my habits and use camera buttons effectively  . For Injects I've been holding shift after pressing e, centering my mouse and then holding b and clicking like a mad man. Once I'm done I use my cameras to return to where I want to be looking. This is of course with a queen on every base, I'm planning on using your method once I get to having to deal with queen less bases.
And thanks to switching to Dvorak keyboards in the past this is a cake walk in comparison to re-learning my keys. The only thing I don't like is using caps lock for workers. I have a fear I'll accidentally leave it on when chatting, but its a very minor issue.
Thanks for the amazing set up, I'll come update with my progress in a few weeks.
Edit: Three days of playing against the A.I. at my leisure has resulted in a leap from 140 apm (old apm) to 168.
Also using cameras like your supposed to now and that apm wasn't even close to how far I'll be soon.
I know the keys very well and don't have to think about it or look for 90% of the hotkeys. You just have to use a musician's trick and go as fast as you can handle without mistakes until your ready, so playing against an easy A.I. for a few games is important. Then just speed up.
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Hi all.
I play random and i am trying to learn dark grid at the moment.
Is there any obvious reason for why for zerg and terran the hatches and command center are on mouse 5 where for protos the nexus is on mouse 4 ?
I think it would be more easy to remember for random players if all the "command centers" are on the same button for all races.
Just my thoughts.
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They were meant to all be on the same mouse button, that's an error.
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Oh, at one point I mentioned to you off site that I thought it would be a good idea to have raise/lower supply depots on separate hotkeys just like you already have burrow/unborrow.
You wanted me to post it here, but I forgot about it until now. This is me posting it here.
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I'm still interested in the small changes/optimizations you have planned for the next version.
Three inconsistencies I wanted to mention (I mentioned some of this on skype, but I wanted to remind you): for zerg and protoss you have harassy stuff on R and V, but for terran you have it on 3 and 4 (with production on R)
And for terran and zerg you have main army on G with units requiring special micro on Space, but for Protoss you have main army on Space with special micro units on G
Lastly, you have terran keep barracks on a separate hotkey from starport/fact, but for protoss you have gates/stargate/robo all on the same key
One minor thing I was thinking about changing is moving stim from F to E, because I've had some times where I fat-finger stim when trying to select my units (or the reverse, when stimming a drop group accidentally selecting my main army). But that's something that goes away with practice.
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I'm thinking of moving most of the abilities from F to E, since the pointer is already so busy with control group selection. What do you guys think of this?
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I haven't played around with Zerg or Protoss enough to know if it would make anything awkward for them, but I think it's a good idea at least for Terran.
I just now looked through the hotkeys for units (didn't check through buildings) and noted some things that seem odd to me, keeping in mind your general setup rules for having importand stuff on EFD:
Zealots, sentries, and high templar all use C for abilities that could be on F E or D. Is there any reason for using C?
Tanks, Vikings, Corruptors, Banelings (why is disable building attack on 7?) have their stuff on F and D rather than F and E. Is there any reason why you aren't using E (which generally takes priority over D) for these units? It's easier to avoid fat fingering mistakes (say, half your vikings are landed and you want them to fly) with FE instead of FD.
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I wanted to post this somewhere, but wasn't really sure if it's worth a thread.
I found out how to get rid of doubleclicking. Any time I ever want to select all X units, I always ctrl-click, so there's no use for doubleclick. Getting rid of it lets you spam clicks for snipe as fast as you can without accidentally selecting your opponent's unit (thus deselecting your ghosts and making it so you do absolutely nothing). There's a workaround for that problem outlined in a TL thread that involves hold position, hold fire, and shift-queueing snipes (and then un-hold-fire) (and with this method if your ghosts get hit they move despite the hold position, which completely stops them from doing their queued up snipe commands, so it doesn't work under fire). Without doubleclick, you can just hold down F and spam leftclick as fast as you can. It also prevents you from accidentally selecting all your workers when you mean to select just 1.
Anyways, to do it, open regedit and find "DoubleClickSpeed" in HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Mouse
Lower numbers mean you have to click faster for windows to count it as a "doubleclick" rather than 2 clicks. The fastest setting in the mouse properties is 200. Setting it to 50 or less makes it such that I physically can't execute a doubleclick.
Whenever you want doubleclicking back, set it to some number 200 or above
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Hello.
So after playing on standard layout forever, I've finally decided to change my hotkey setup. Initially I was thinking I'd just modify the current standard hotkey setup to move everything within range and simplify it a bit, but just thinking about that gave me shudders. I immediately remembered the DarkGrid setup and thought it would be worth checking out.
Your vids just about sold me, but I still had some concerns: I like to have hatches individually hotkeyed, and then have one hotkey for all the hatches. Additionally the 4+5 buttons on my Death Adder are kinda uncomfortable to get to, and my right thumb doesn't have the greatest muscle memory.
So I've altered it a little bit, resetting control groups 1-4 to 1-4 on the keyboard, with 5 = r, 6 = t, 7 = g and 8 = v. I think I might swap patrol and attack around, but in all likelihood I'll just get used to the current setup. Other than that comparitively minor adjustment, I've found the rest of the setup heavenly to use and I've only played about 5 or 6 games vs AI. Everything feels so much snappier and quicker, and the setup feels extremely natural and easy to use.
So I'd like to thank you for this, it's evident that you've put a lot of thought into it and it shows. Honestly I'm not sure how I managed the old standard setup. It always seemed to me like a really small deal - that a good hotkey setup might give you a slight advantage against a very equally matched opponent - but after only a few games I can see this benefitting me far more than I ever imagined.
Than you sir!
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On January 23 2012 18:42 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 18:38 Czarnodziej wrote:On January 23 2012 17:20 Tobberoth wrote:On January 23 2012 09:00 Czarnodziej wrote:On January 23 2012 04:23 besneeze wrote:
The ideal position for this layout is Q, W,E, F, SPACE if I'm not mistaken. Isn't it little counterproductive? I tried it and pressing ctrl + any other key led me to twisting my whole hand to the side. Well, it's actually not that uncommon in RTS to play with the hand tilted. A way of making it easier is to tip the actual keyboard so you don't have to tilt your hand all that much. Also, with darkgrid, you shouldn't use ctrl all that much, it has binds to create controlgroups with alt, so alt+g creates a control group on g, same as ctrl+g. Using alt with this setup is way easier, but harder to get used to. As for the question on pros, I mentioned darkgrid on Snutes channel and he said he finds it interesting. He's not using it though ^^ Alt + space is not a good idea mechanically. True, toss setup isn't really optimal in this case. Then again, creating a control group is something you do very seldomly, most of the time you'll be using shift anyway.
This is my first day using darkgrid however the alt + space method has already become easy to me. I simply use my thumb to press both alt and space. Basically you hit alt with your thumb then slide your thumb sideways and more down alt using your thumbs knuckle to hit space. It's sounds harder than it is. I got very quick at it very fast.
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@FoxyMayhem Thanks for this great layout! I just switched to this, and I'm practicing with the Trainer and custom games. I play Zerg and, for anyone who finds it useful I've made a ![[image loading]](http://www.maartendejager.nl/sc2/cheatsheat.jpg) cheatsheet (not sheat) as an overview of the layouts for what I found were the most important buildings/units/abilities. If anyone wants the images seperately, or the PSD, pls message me!
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On February 19 2012 10:45 sondrizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 11:40 soLremarK wrote:
hmmm, overall pretty cute idea but I don't think it's worth it, especially for anyone more than a month into the game.
Your average player (Protoss at least) is better off just readjusting standard keys a bit Did you even put an effort into trying it? It's miles ahead the standard layout, especially the layered base cameras.
This is a bit of a late reply, but I spent a while learning it, in customs by myself and ladder on smurf accounts and eventually ladder on my main account. The conclusions I came to are that overall, some of the motions feel awkward (not in an "I'm unfamiliar with this layout, muscle memory blabla" way, but in terms of very strange combinations of keys. Multiple spells and abilities + the hotkeys don't syenergize nearly as well as the Blizzard defaults do, and with very simple tweaks for that, you can have 6 camera hotkeys easily available, 7 army control groups, and a substantially lower learning curve. I don't know why any Protoss player at least would have any incentive to try this out
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Sirath, what a layout! Very Nice.you're very welcome, and the appreciation means a lot. I have put a massive amount of time into this.sorry for the delay in replying.if you update your image to account for the new changes, I'll put it on the front page.
Alright guys, I've updated some of the spell layouts and swapped the barracks And Command Center., Gateway and Nexis production hotkeys. I've also moved unload to E, making the R and V multiple drop control a bit more natural. Overall, it's a small update, but it should help bring everything to be a bit smoother and a bit snappier. Also, there is only one version now for all three races.
So tomorrow is newbie Tuesday on day9, and is asking people to submit a game where you lost and then you talk about the control groups you used. Oh how I wish we could get darkgrid into the discussion somehow! I don't think submitting a replay of a master player playing like a total boss with darkgrid would help, too bad…
Remark, can you be specific about what positions feel unnatural? What spell combinations have a poor flow? The generalizations don't really help me solve the issue, but specific feedback is great.
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Darkgrid 1-3c doesn't seem to have the mouse buttons enabled...
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On March 20 2012 09:32 FoxyMayhem wrote:
I'm thinking of moving most of the abilities from F to E, since the pointer is already so busy with control group selection. What do you guys think of this?
Hi Fox
I ve been using the dargrid since 2 months and i feel now that i have faster macro mechanics than before. By the way i still make huge missclick when microing tanks but i am sure i am going through that.
The only thing if think that should be updated is the stimpack shortcut usally i overstim
- by selecting my army : i want to click "g" but i press "f" and stim once more
- by macroing : i forget to press mouse button for rax and spam dfdfdfdd... And so i overstim my rines.
So i think you should exchange E and F button to avoid that.
Thanks anyway for this great work you have done for the community
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EPT
