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Zurich15329 Posts
On September 15 2011 00:44 theonlyshaft wrote:
lcl, the series is about abusing the meta-game, and shifts within it. For example, the meta-game at one point was hellion-centric in TvZ, so I did an episode on roach openings. Sometimes, we'll diverge from a strictly meta-game sense, however, that's to be expected beyond a certain volume of episodes.
There, fixed that for you.
You are talking about the game, why don't you just call it the game. There is nothing meta about it.
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That's a very simple definition, and doesn't apply in all senses. In any case, it applies here, as quoted from your very own thread Zatic:
"Example of metagaming: Players all agree that unit A is too strong. Many players are winning games by only making A. To react, opponents have been rushing for unit B, which is a counter to A. Knowing this, a player has developed a build which is weak against everything but a rush to B.
Why is this metagaming? The rules state the statistics of the units; however, they make no comment on which are overpowered or what should be the standard strategy. By taking information from outside the game, this player is affecting the outcome of the game with information from outside of the ruleset."
The TvZ I was referring to then, which you marked out, was indeed meta-game. It helps to know what you're talking about, before randomly posting crap. Had you actually viewed the show before posting, you'd understand why, with the exception of the episode dealing with spine crawlers, every episode has dealt with some aspect of a true meta-game. I could list it for you, but why do your work for you?
My entire series is on thinking outside of the box, and exploiting shifts in popular unit compositions; it's about staying ahead of the learning curve, and doing what you can to make the best of a given situation. It is, by very definition, a discussion of the meta-game. To refer to something as "the game," can be non-specific, seeing as each episode has 4-6 games within. I could be referring to a specific ZvT game, in the ZvT episode, the game as a whole, or a wide variety of other concepts. Words are representational systems representing complex ideas; as long as each member of the communication can understand the systems being represented and comprehend the ideas being passed to them, what do semantics matter? Clarity is far more important to me.
In any case, this is terribly off-topic; if you care to discuss my word choice, do it in a PM, so I can ignore it in peace.
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Great videos but blip.tv sucks, could you upload them on youtube as well? :-)
For example you can't fast forward on blip.tv with many videos.
P.S.: I tried that roach build but he scouted the roach warren and proceeded to kill me with a one base marauder hellion attack which killed my roach/spinecrawler/slowling army. What should I do if my roach warren gets scouted, abandon making roaches then?
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if you are rushing to roaches because helions are popular then you are the one who doesnt know what he is talking about. Surely if you intend to teach others you should teach proper scouting? rushing to roaches doesnt help vs a fast banshee or a marauder marine push. Its not that hard to scout a helion build either. If in fact your build is just scouting a factory and making roaches then that isnt meta game because its based on the scouting information within the game.
Additionally, roaches ARE good against all ground based terran units in the early game so its the same as calling making marines meta gaming because zerg makes mutas rather than because they are just good.
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YouTube has a limit on the length of videos. 10 minutes is the maximum  I don't know of many other video sites that will allow hour-2 hour long broadcasts.
I tried that roach build but he scouted the roach warren and proceeded to kill me with a one base marauder hellion attack which killed my roach/spinecrawler/slowling army.
It sounds to me like something happened you didn't think to mention. I'd need to see the replay to be certain (feel free to hijack this thread with replays, as long as they pertain to the show  ) but it sounds to me like you didn't attack him with those 6 roaches. It's only 6 roaches, then you go back to droning.
Because you keep some speedlings on the map, you can counter him when he pushes out, to buy time/punish. Marauders do incredibly well against Spines, by the way. I would have made a lot of lings upon seeing the army move out, and use maybe 4-6 roaches to individually fire down hellions. It's kind of micro-intensive, seeing as I'm referring to 1) counter attack lings 2) defense lings and 3) roach micro in addition to macro, but it can be done.
Like I said, I could give you a lot more information with a replay. To be honest, everytime I've ever encountered a marauder hellion composition, I used the counter to punish, and used spines, roaches, and ling reinforcements to hold off until mutalisks were out. I'm pretty sure I took some damage to my natural during these times, but nothing too serious -- mutalisks tear marauder hellion a new one 
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lcl, are you still crying about semantics? Please stop trolling. It's obvious at this point you haven't actually watched the show, so hush. It's a freaking title, dude.
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i've watched the first half of the episode w/ sheth, and i've gotta say, i'm pretty impressed so far, i'll definitely keep watching if the rest are like this
thanks a bunch!
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On September 15 2011 00:53 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:44 theonlyshaft wrote:
lcl, the series is about abusing the meta-game, and shifts within it. For example, the meta-game at one point was hellion-centric in TvZ, so I did an episode on roach openings. Sometimes, we'll diverge from a strictly meta-game sense, however, that's to be expected beyond a certain volume of episodes. There, fixed that for you. You are talking about the game, why don't you just call it the game. There is nothing meta about it.
Educate yourself and stop making shitty posts.
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Metagame
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On September 15 2011 00:44 theonlyshaft wrote:
Anmois, I've been trying to put together a ZvZ VoD, but the problem is getting comprehensive replays. There are so many nuances to ZvZ that it's hard to follow all of the different divergent paths for one strategy, much less every strategy, so I'd end up teaching my own style. I do my best never to do that, as I'm only a diamond player, and I really don't think anyone gives a shit about my personal play. But it's looking like that's exactly what I'm going to have to do.
Soon however, I'm building to purchasing time with coaches, so we'll see a lot higher-level thoughts about the game.
lcl, the series is about abusing the meta-game, and shifts within it. For example, the meta-game at one point was hellion-centric in TvZ, so I did an episode on roach openings. Sometimes, we'll diverge from a strictly meta-game sense, however, that's to be expected beyond a certain volume of episodes.
That makes sense. I watched a couple of the VODs. Your analysis is commendable considering you're starting out and I'm looking forward as you continue with the series.
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Thank anmolsing, and namaste.
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lulz shaft, whatcha doing here? I remember you say you hate me and the whole TL-community, you're such a hypocrite!
Anmois, I've been trying to put together a ZvZ VoD, but the problem is getting comprehensive replays. There are so many nuances to ZvZ that it's hard to follow all of the different divergent paths for one strategy, much less every strategy, so I'd end up teaching my own style. I do my best never to do that, as I'm only a diamond player, and I really don't think anyone gives a shit about my personal play. But it's looking like that's exactly what I'm going to have to do.
I loled at you faking modesty ^^, we all know you like telling people what to do.
What happened to you owning up tournaments and beating masters players? You're not 'just' a diamond player, right? I was pretty certain you made it clear to us that you feel like a bawz.
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Hey Shaft, remember me? ^^
This is playing to your strengths I gotta say compared to back at EAT.
You can talk a lot more about things than execute them.
Why not just use SC2casts to get those replays? There is currently a NesTea vs NosLoki but plenty of other ZvZ's, admitably they are mostly IdrA/Destiny/Nerchio.
The only other ZvZ with NesTea is NesTea vs Promise, shame there aren't many replays from him floating about from ladder. And the GSL is just gonna be NesTea vs Some Random Terran.
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Huh, thanks Clove! Gonna check out SC2casts. The hardest part of finding the replays is looking at them and finding themes. In tournaments, which is what a lot of these replays tend to be from, players intentionally switch things up. I like to find ladder replays of the player doing the same strategy, with different variations based on the situation. That's where you can find the most information.
I loled at you faking modesty ^^, we all know you like telling people what to do.
What happened to you owning up tournaments and beating masters players? You're not 'just' a diamond player, right? I was pretty certain you made it clear to us that you feel like a bawz.
Sorry SMD. I can be arrogant, if you prefer. Yeah, I beat Masters players. Yes, I've beaten a GM player (admittedly, it was 1 out of like 7 games, but still). So what? A coach doesn't have to be able to execute things, as long as he understands the game. If anyone benefits from seeing these VoDs, or my coaching, then I'm happy to help.
It's easy to criticize, bro. Seems like a fairly positive review, however, from the people who watch my stuff. Apparently I can't be doing it all wrong. Trolling is cool, though
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Sorry guys no show tonight. I work. All day
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On September 16 2011 16:05 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:53 zatic wrote:On September 15 2011 00:44 theonlyshaft wrote:
lcl, the series is about abusing the meta-game, and shifts within it. For example, the meta-game at one point was hellion-centric in TvZ, so I did an episode on roach openings. Sometimes, we'll diverge from a strictly meta-game sense, however, that's to be expected beyond a certain volume of episodes. There, fixed that for you. You are talking about the game, why don't you just call it the game. There is nothing meta about it. Educate yourself and stop making shitty posts. http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Metagame
Lol did zatic just get utterly destroyed? Ha.
Please dont ban me.....
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I think a video or two about the metagame at different levels of ladder would be good. I have found that more complex tactics and scouting methods don't work until you can stop assuming your opponent is retarded. For instance, I found that two-base ling/hydra agression rolls over bronze league players and when I got to silver league, my strategy stopped working so it changed to just completely out expanding other opponents because they did not know to apply pressure to Zerg until I got to the upper silver league where it stopped working. A guide covering the topic of meta game at different ladder levels would be EXTREMELY helpful to most players hoping to get better, as, like I have said, cool little tricks that you pick up from pros don't work if your opponent is retarded like most lower-league players.
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On September 15 2011 00:53 zatic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 15 2011 00:44 theonlyshaft wrote:
lcl, the series is about abusing the meta-game, and shifts within it. For example, the meta-game at one point was hellion-centric in TvZ, so I did an episode on roach openings. Sometimes, we'll diverge from a strictly meta-game sense, however, that's to be expected beyond a certain volume of episodes. There, fixed that for you. You are talking about the game, why don't you just call it the game. There is nothing meta about it.
If you're gonna be a smartass and make a post correcting a quote of something someone said, and then link a post explaining why you're right and they're wrong, at least be right about what you say, and read the post you link.
Third Example:
+ Show Spoiler +
Example of metagaming: Players all agree that unit A is too strong. Many players are winning games by only making A. To react, opponents have been rushing for unit B, which is a counter to A. Knowing this, a player has developed a build which is weak against everything but a rush to B.
Why is this metagaming? The rules state the statistics of the units; however, they make no comment on which are overpowered or what should be the standard strategy. By taking information from outside the game, this player is affecting the outcome of the game with information from outside of the ruleset.
Example of non-metagaming: A player luckily scouts his opponent early and guesses from his buildings that he is making a large amount of X. From this he makes the decision to build only the direct counter to X. This isn't metagaming because all decisions and information were from within the game.
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I would imagine from the way that third example is phrased, using absolutes ("This isn't metagaming because all decisions and information were from within the game") leaving one to freely interpret that even though one scouts (decision/information from within the game), one is also applying outside knowledge (pre-disposition towards "too strong" [loosely stated, I don't want to get into a topic of balance, but it's a quote of a quote of a quote you linked to] blue flame hellions in the present meta) and is thus also a meta-game.
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Sorry about the delay in putting out a show guys, lots of stuff going on in real life, including my step dad getting back surgery. Everything's smooth now, though, so on Thursday at 1 PM EST (8 PM CET) I'll be bringing to you a ZvZ lesson between myself and Chaosvujste, the writer of the ultimate ZvZ guide found on TL @ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256461
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EPT
