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On August 17 2011 07:50 Cloudshade wrote:
wow this is very interesting! I like how you think on your toes with the pylon wallin to protect your units quite innovative. This is definitely something that will be game changing in pvz because zergs have to be much more weary of just producing only 2-4 lings now if they want a chance to hold this off. But my question to you is, have any zergs held this off before? and if so how did they hold it off? Secondly, you open gateway first on tal darim, so in the case where the zerg goes any pool under 10 pool how do you deal with it? cuz if he goes straight for the pylon that could be a problem I can see that might be quite tough to deal with. Regardless this is a very good timing you've found because I noticed that the expo hatch has just finished in most cases where the zerg CAN'T utilize their fresh expansion. Props to you Hister.
EDIT: oh yea when I ask have zergs held this off before, I mean against zergs who haven't played against you doing this strat before.
I've been totally crushed a lot doing this but it usually ends up 28 probes vs 22 drones with a delayed fe which makes it well wroth it.
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First of all, nice timing you figured out here. I've personally been experimenting a lot with early game cb unit pressure out of one gateway until ling speed is out (2zealots + stalkers) following it up with a fast nexus and 2 more gates or 1 gate and forge at my natural which has been fine in repelling the lings he had to make beforehand, giving me a safe and quick expo as well as stop him from droning up hardcore. Often times i'm able to not only force quite some lings, usually i get at least the queen at his natural and some drones (sniping the queen with stalkers is not too hard if he has no ling speed yet if the zealots don't get it).
Since you cut probe production at 16 supply to get your cyber down without any delay and don't delay your zealots as well combined with forge (pylon + canon block) or even more gates - depending on your flavor) however did quite more dmg, can't be compared.
I've watched all your replays and have been left with some questions I hope you could provide us some insight with. First of all, I totally loved your low ground pylon + gate as well as finishing your block at your natural to follow your aggression up with quite a quick nexus instead of a one base play followup. You showed this in your matches on shakuras as well as tal darim. I'm curious now though how this fares vs a 6pool (you wrote "Always build your gateway on the side you will leave open makes you immune to anything other than 6 pool." in your notes). What's your reaction to a 6pool? Can you wall of with forge + another gate or even just gate+ cyber (let it finish + forge and another pylon in the front? What's your response in that case and how far behind do you end up? Do you maybe have a replay showing this? I'm especially about tal darim when you scout him last with your gateway scout.
Another thing I was curious about. What if had faced the opponent beforehand already and did the very same thing. Apart from him bumping more lings and you being able to pull back when you see it with your 1st probe and being fine that he spent so much larvae on lings i was thinking about, what if he started a roach warren right after your scouting probe left his base (after checking his gas/pool timings) and then get his expo? Usually this indicates a 3RR+ lings/5RR/7RR or something like that and people who go for 1gate fe into nexus + 2 more gates (or one more gates + forge) at their natural always check again for that roach warren. I couldn't see you doing it. Getting a roach warren that early delays his expo and a normal macro zerg won't do this, however, like I said above, would fast roaches screw you? Did you run into this sometime? Maybe you could share us here also some insight or maybe even have a replay.
Do you have any replays showing how do you vs 9/10 pools maybe with a low ground pylon? (with high ground pylon i can't imagine you having any problems at all starting a cb zealot asap after a 12gate).
The replay I liked most is the one on shakuras vs birdkicker, where he scouted your cb gateway and asap went for more lings (unlike other zergs who went for like 2-4 more lings and some more drones first ... greedy zergs :-)) as well as starting a spine in his main asap (his natural had no creep yet) thereby being able to repell your attack. He didn't let you get your 3 pylon block up (just 2 pylons) and denied your canon. Still you managed to get a bit of a lead here checking the worker count/expo timing. I think this match shows the beauty of this build, you are able to apply nice pressure, which you can follow up easily with a nice macro game going into a midgame with a much better eco than compared to a normal fe opening.
Last but not least, your innovative usage of plyons in the match on shattered temple vs EGStrifeCro and then blocking the high ground again wiping out his whole main was really sweet, nice job.
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This is sort of a mix of a zealot rush and a natural cannon contain, with optional cannons  It looks amazing, I'll have to try this tomorrow when I'm coherent, thanks for sharing!
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The first two times i tried this I failed pretty hard with the cannon contain but the zergs pulled a lot of drones and made a ton of lings. The immortal/sentry/zealot push absolutely demolished them anyways. After 3 immortals I like pushing out and chronoing out a warp prism to warp in zealots on the creep, works nicely with the push.
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On August 18 2011 15:38 Fairwell wrote:
First of all, nice timing you figured out here. I've personally been experimenting a lot with early game cb unit pressure out of one gateway until ling speed is out (2zealots + stalkers) following it up with a fast nexus and 2 more gates or 1 gate and forge at my natural which has been fine in repelling the lings he had to make beforehand, giving me a safe and quick expo as well as stop him from droning up hardcore. Often times i'm able to not only force quite some lings, usually i get at least the queen at his natural and some drones (sniping the queen with stalkers is not too hard if he has no ling speed yet if the zealots don't get it).
Since you cut probe production at 16 supply to get your cyber down without any delay and don't delay your zealots as well combined with forge (pylon + canon block) or even more gates - depending on your flavor) however did quite more dmg, can't be compared.
I've watched all your replays and have been left with some questions I hope you could provide us some insight with. First of all, I totally loved your low ground pylon + gate as well as finishing your block at your natural to follow your aggression up with quite a quick nexus instead of a one base play followup. You showed this in your matches on shakuras as well as tal darim. I'm curious now though how this fares vs a 6pool (you wrote "Always build your gateway on the side you will leave open makes you immune to anything other than 6 pool." in your notes). What's your reaction to a 6pool? Can you wall of with forge + another gate or even just gate+ cyber (let it finish + forge and another pylon in the front? What's your response in that case and how far behind do you end up? Do you maybe have a replay showing this? I'm especially about tal darim when you scout him last with your gateway scout.
Another thing I was curious about. What if had faced the opponent beforehand already and did the very same thing. Apart from him bumping more lings and you being able to pull back when you see it with your 1st probe and being fine that he spent so much larvae on lings i was thinking about, what if he started a roach warren right after your scouting probe left his base (after checking his gas/pool timings) and then get his expo? Usually this indicates a 3RR+ lings/5RR/7RR or something like that and people who go for 1gate fe into nexus + 2 more gates (or one more gates + forge) at their natural always check again for that roach warren. I couldn't see you doing it. Getting a roach warren that early delays his expo and a normal macro zerg won't do this, however, like I said above, would fast roaches screw you? Did you run into this sometime? Maybe you could share us here also some insight or maybe even have a replay.
Do you have any replays showing how do you vs 9/10 pools maybe with a low ground pylon? (with high ground pylon i can't imagine you having any problems at all starting a cb zealot asap after a 12gate).
The replay I liked most is the one on shakuras vs birdkicker, where he scouted your cb gateway and asap went for more lings (unlike other zergs who went for like 2-4 more lings and some more drones first ... greedy zergs :-)) as well as starting a spine in his main asap (his natural had no creep yet) thereby being able to repell your attack. He didn't let you get your 3 pylon block up (just 2 pylons) and denied your canon. Still you managed to get a bit of a lead here checking the worker count/expo timing. I think this match shows the beauty of this build, you are able to apply nice pressure, which you can follow up easily with a nice macro game going into a midgame with a much better eco than compared to a normal fe opening.
Last but not least, your innovative usage of plyons in the match on shattered temple vs EGStrifeCro and then blocking the high ground again wiping out his whole main was really sweet, nice job.
I've been able to stop 6 pool on close positions on tal darim altar pulling most of my probes of course. What to do after you hold off the first wave of lings though is extremely technical you don't want to get a nexus and have 20 lings kill you but you don't want him to have made 10 lings then fe behind this so the only thing you can do is keep making units and scouting his ling numbers to see if you can counter or atleast look like you're going to attack him to force more lings.
I've done this same build to the same players several times in the ladder if they can't deal with it and no else does it how do they learn to counter it. However, the best way to work on this though is I join 1v1 metaloplis obs games in the custom list and will just keep doing this rush over and over again. From doing this I've found a better way to cannon that doesn't involve using ramp block but a pylon wall with single holes in it near the ramp this optimizes the wall size, makes zerglings very ineffective and removes the queen from the fight.
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Can you post replays of your new style that doesn't involve blocking the ramp but instead leaving holes?
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I cant seem to download any of the replays...
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Calgary26003 Posts
Whoa, I've never thought of this. Sounds strong in theory. Excited to try it out!
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Well i guess protoss has nothing but all-ins up there sleeves, hf allining people on ladder and then complain about 1/1/1 all in, it is karma 
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I think replayfu.com is down...
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Weird. I clicked on the links but can't view the reps...hmmmm.
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On September 10 2011 04:12 TolEranceNA wrote:Well i guess protoss has nothing but all-ins up there sleeves, hf allining people on ladder and then complain about 1/1/1 all in, it is karma
2 things....
#1. It's not an all-in, according to the OP.
#2. People tell Protoss to try new builds, and when we try new tactics of pressure, etc. we get called gimmicky and cheesy? I don't get people sometimes.
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yeah, the replays are down, could you host them somewhere else? I really want to study this because my PvZ is atrocious right now
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On September 10 2011 04:31 ma70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:12 TolEranceNA wrote:Well i guess protoss has nothing but all-ins up there sleeves, hf allining people on ladder and then complain about 1/1/1 all in, it is karma 2 things.... #1. It's not an all-in, according to the OP. #2. People tell Protoss to try new builds, and when we try new tactics of pressure, etc. we get called gimmicky and cheesy? I don't get people sometimes.
stop being so sensitive, i believe it was all said in good humor. I hope i never run into this... It's so frustrating dying to pylons.
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I'm not really being sensitive, it was just a response to a post.....
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On September 10 2011 04:01 AEsgaims wrote:
I cant seem to download any of the replays...
Same. Would love to see replays, thank you for the post!
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I watched the replay vs EGStrifeCo from his perspective and I like the idea. It has the capacity to rapidly change the game and doesn't necessarily have an easy tell.
To me, at least, it's a clear tell that SOMETHING is up when you leave the ramp with 2 zealots, a stalker, and a probe. But it seems weird for 4gate even with the gas steal.
Do you have any replays of you losing to this build, and what has stopped it so far?
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You're such a bastard (you know in a good way). I love everything about this. Personaly i will be focusing on refining your idea to get a quicker expansion. Thanks for posting this
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...But why? Tournaments don't allow you to wall off the bottom of a ramp, so what's the point in practicing this?
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EPT
