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Introduction:
I'm Hister.526 NA scrub High Masters Protoss and have been for a few seasons now. I enjoy looking for holes in the game that can be used to find new builds. Sadly most of the time I'm just losing to 4 gate.
This build is a intense early game pressure not a all in with a duel intent of killing FE and forcing mass lings. I want to say now I do this on every map vs zerg. I've gotten shut down a few times doing this and I back it up with a timing push that I won't explained now . This is just to show my fellow Brotoss how to pressure higher level zerg consistently.
Build Order
9 pylon
11 1st chrono
12 gateway
13 2nd chrono
14 gas
15 pylon
16 stop building probes here put just 2 probes on gas add
Build zealot with chrono
Then drop cyber and scout with that probe
resume probe production
20 second zealot chrono it half way through add 3rd probe to gas
22 stalker chrono it asap get warp gate than get second stalker and 3rd stalker
You can either use 2 gateway into 4 gate or forge really a preference I like cannons more myself
When to attack
+ Show Spoiler +
Once you hit 2 zealots send them out with 2 probes and keep the stalkers coming. The goal here is to pylon block under the ramp or make a grid of pylons making zerglings ineffective vs your stronger units most the time however I just win and go on the next game
Notes;
+ Show Spoiler +Always build your gateway on the side you will leave open makes you immune to anything other than 6 pool.
When facing gasless style you can abuse them bad with stalkers even vs outrageous zergling numbers keep fighting him with the stalkers and deny creep spread.
If he sent his queen down and has broken out of the ramp keep running away from the queen while killing as many zergling as you can. Meanwhile put down more cannons farther away with pylons covering them.
On maps where you can easily block the natural build down there.
If you stopped his expo and hes not attempting to get it back hes probably doing nydus play go back home if you feel uneasy.
All replays are vs current GM players
http://replayfu.com/r/c0Zjbn EGLzGamEr
http://replayfu.com/r/B5h22r EGStrifeCro
http://replayfu.com/r/dQzLDq nGenJazBas
http://replayfu.com/r/Qhhghq VPChAnCe
http://replayfu.com/r/6B6G6d birdkicker This shows the macro style if you don't kill them
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+ Show Spoiler +I can't watch replays right now, so all my opinions will be formed purely by reading the thread.
Any good Zerg will be able to see the count of chronoboosts you are using and will prepare adequately for it. Especially making this many units early will put you so behind in economy. I don't see how this build could ever stop any FE, especially since most Zergs gas-pool or hatch-gas-pool now for early speedlings. As well, you aren't making any sentries. How do you expect to expand without sentry forcefield? And correct me if I'm wrong, but you're using pylons to narrow his ramp? Won't the creep be already spread there by then? IMO, this doesn't seem viable at all.
User was warned for this post
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On August 10 2011 18:09 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:02 GenesisX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I can't watch replays right now, so all my opinions will be formed purely by reading the thread. Any good Zerg will be able to see the count of chronoboosts you are using and will prepare adequately for it. Especially making this many units early will put you so behind in economy. I don't see how this build could ever stop any FE, especially since most Zergs gas-pool or hatch-gas-pool now for early speedlings. As well, you aren't making any sentries. How do you expect to expand without sentry forcefield? And correct me if I'm wrong, but you're using pylons to narrow his ramp? Won't the creep be already spread there by then? IMO, this doesn't seem viable at all. So the OP provides replays against players like EGLzGamEr and EGStrifeCo and your argument is, "any good zerg will... prepare adequately for it"? Well played =/
Thanks for reading my spoiler! ^o^
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On August 10 2011 18:16 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:12 GenesisX wrote:On August 10 2011 18:09 Sated wrote:On August 10 2011 18:02 GenesisX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I can't watch replays right now, so all my opinions will be formed purely by reading the thread. Any good Zerg will be able to see the count of chronoboosts you are using and will prepare adequately for it. Especially making this many units early will put you so behind in economy. I don't see how this build could ever stop any FE, especially since most Zergs gas-pool or hatch-gas-pool now for early speedlings. As well, you aren't making any sentries. How do you expect to expand without sentry forcefield? And correct me if I'm wrong, but you're using pylons to narrow his ramp? Won't the creep be already spread there by then? IMO, this doesn't seem viable at all. So the OP provides replays against players like EGLzGamEr and EGStrifeCo and your argument is, "any good zerg will... prepare adequately for it"? Well played =/ Thanks for reading my spoiler! ^o^ I can see without watching the replays who they are against. It's written in the thread. Also: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=234002
Ah, ok. Will stop doing that then. Still doesn't change my opinions in the first post.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Please explain to me how that is not an all-in? Unless you kill the zerg's expansion, you're terribly behind, in the game vs Strifecro you didn't get an expansion until like 13:00, the other 2 games are just a variation of a cannon rush, with the exception you produce GW units first.
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Heya,
Some questions about the replay vs LzGamer around 7:30 you got a cannon at your wall in, I saw that he had lzgamer made 4 drones at that time that could have been more roaches, do you advise always getting the cannon there just in case he'd go all in with roach ling? Also at around 6:30 I feel like you could have chosen to expand behind the contain in stead of trying to break him, do you think this would be a good idea? aka not go for the 2nd and 3d gateway but going for a nexus at that time. It feels to me that if you can get your nat up and he doesn't have a base that he has to do a great amount of damage to just even out, what do you think about this?
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On August 10 2011 18:50 Linz wrote:
Please explain to me how that is not an all-in? Unless you kill the zerg's expansion, you're terribly behind, in the game vs Strifecro you didn't get an expansion until like 13:00, the other 2 games are just a variation of a cannon rush, with the exception you produce GW units first.
Sorry to say I didn't save the replays where I was unable to do damage but the goal is to force a lot of lings and go with a timing push before infestors are out.
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On August 10 2011 18:51 Morga wrote:
Heya,
Some questions about the replay vs LzGamer around 7:30 you got a cannon at your wall in, I saw that he had lzgamer made 4 drones at that time that could have been more roaches, do you advise always getting the cannon there just in case he'd go all in with roach ling? Also at around 6:30 I feel like you could have chosen to expand behind the contain in stead of trying to break him, do you think this would be a good idea? aka not go for the 2nd and 3d gateway but going for a nexus at that time. It feels to me that if you can get your nat up and he doesn't have a base that he has to do a great amount of damage to just even out, what do you think about this?
When I dropped that cannon I already won the game same reason I didn't expo my composition dominates roach ling there was nothing he could do to beat my army. The cannon cost as much as 1 sentry so it was there in-case he did a base trade.
I just played this game a minute ago showing how useful that cannon can be.
http://replayfu.com/r/NgQxGd
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Creative all-in. Have a nice time abusing people on the ladder with it.
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Thanks for the fast reply  I think I'll be trying this out in the near future !
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On August 10 2011 19:22 Lobotomist wrote:
Creative all-in. Have a nice time abusing people on the ladder with it.
Have you played high level PvZ lately? Obviously not. Have you tried to play a completely straight game in PvZ lately? Of curse not. Have you saw the win rates graphics of PvX of the last moth? Let me guess...
On topic: Nice pressure build, too bad that like any other build the race has to offer nowadays in PvZ, is just another gimmick that once it get figured, it will be useless. I hope i'm wrong.
Still, nice build!!
User was warned for this post
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very nice build, the attack come very early
and it doesn't seem easy to scout
thank you for sharing
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Russian Federation63 Posts
Well, there is a reason that burrowed supply depot is there in all the big tournament maps.
I'm unlikely to ever use this tactic, because easy wins with a tactic that likely not ever be usable in any sort of professional tournament is not what i'm after.
But if climbing ladder is your only intention, sure why not ). Good source of fast wins. Not many zergs know how to 1-base properly in current metagame. Some even consider it impossible.
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On August 11 2011 02:02 Anfi wrote:
Well, there is a reason that burrowed supply depot is there in all the big tournament maps.
I'm unlikely to ever use this tactic, because easy wins with a tactic that likely not ever be usable in any sort of professional tournament is not what i'm after.
But if climbing ladder is your only intention, sure why not ). Good source of fast wins. Not many zergs know how to 1-base properly in current metagame. Some even consider it impossible.
wrong. 2 plyonos are enough if you close the gap with zealots.
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Is there a reason you don't do this with a 10pylon 10gate? Is it because then it'd "look" more aggressive?
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i watched first rep - i dont understand why u say its not an all in - 15 minutes game and u never expand or build probes. It's smart all-in which from zerg point of view looks like a standart opening unless he will drone scout u. It's not possible to kill scouting drone fast enough and he will see chrono on gate and second zealot being produced.
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Thank you so much for posting this. The earlier I can end a PvZ, the better. Tagging for later review.
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I tried the build aganist a friend. Is really interesting because takes the Z out of their game.
I used it aganist a mid masters friend with a similar level of mine and the firsts games were not even close, even when i was executing the build awfuly.
Also is an amazing build to practice out of the ordinary builds we usually do, to help us improve as players. Thx!
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A totally creative new style. I will look into this. Great Job.
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I have a question; on one of the new ladder maps (not sure which one) the natural's creep extends all the way to the ramp in between the z natural and the z main, which makes it impossible to build the pylons to wall their ramp. What does one do in this case? Did I just get to his ramp too late?
Edit: The map in question is Abyssal Caverns.
Edit: Tried it 3 more times, but I lost all 3 times. Mostly from falling behind after executing this build and taking out the natural.
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This sure looks quite interesting... I don't like the fact that any kind of expands are really, really late, but it will sure be something to try.
Gonna give it a shot tonight, I'll probably come back here to let you know how it turned out.
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Lololol, this looks hilarious, gotta try it out. :D
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What happens if the zerg anticipates this strategy, and uses their first queen to plant a tumor to deny the pylons?
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Ok, so I showed this to my friend, and he says this is just bronze league cheese and that he could easily beat it with 1 base nydus or something. How cause I explain to him that, that's not what it is? O_o
(he says he could win with 1 base infestors)
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On August 12 2011 03:42 pwadoc wrote:
What happens if the zerg anticipates this strategy, and uses their first queen to plant a tumor to deny the pylons?
What would the zerg see that would prompt this? Even if they see you build a second zealot, I don't think the regular zerg reaction is, "oh that 2nd zealot must mean he's going to build pylons at my ramp!
On August 12 2011 06:22 Fierco wrote:
Ok, so I showed this to my friend, and he says this is just bronze league cheese and that he could easily beat it with 1 base nydus or something. How cause I explain to him that, that's not what it is? O_o
(he says he could win with 1 base infestors)
Why don't you try the build vs him? or show him the replays of it working vs high level players.
Also: question to OP, what do you do if the zerg drone scouts, do you try to prevent him from seeing the second zealot? I'm just wondering how this would affect your build.
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very creative.you have the ability to write build orders.
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that game against strifecro was so cool! Sick game/strat
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United States15275 Posts
I think it's a very nice pressure build that exploits the standard PvZ metagame. If Z scouts the second zealot he will assume some sort of incoming tech and drone hard until he needs to defend it. This will catch him completely offguard. Personally I believe that Protoss players need to embrace soft pressure builds if they want to return PvZ to an even playing field, as macro openings like FFE are not working anymore.
On that note have you considered the possible transitions into a macro game?
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Oh very interesting idea, I like it! Something I'm probably ganna whip out from my big 'ol bag 'o tricks every now and then. Very cool.
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On August 12 2011 00:43 DeathIncarna wrote:
I have a question; on one of the new ladder maps (not sure which one) the natural's creep extends all the way to the ramp in between the z natural and the z main, which makes it impossible to build the pylons to wall their ramp. What does one do in this case? Did I just get to his ramp too late?
Edit: The map in question is Abyssal Caverns.
Edit: Tried it 3 more times, but I lost all 3 times. Mostly from falling behind after executing this build and taking out the natural.
I don't play that map 1-1-1 is too strong on it so I avoid it. You can still build the pylon block just get the first pylon closest to hatchery building before the hatch has time to spread creep there.
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On August 12 2011 06:34 ~Maverick~ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:42 pwadoc wrote:
What happens if the zerg anticipates this strategy, and uses their first queen to plant a tumor to deny the pylons? What would the zerg see that would prompt this? Even if they see you build a second zealot, I don't think the regular zerg reaction is, "oh that 2nd zealot must mean he's going to build pylons at my ramp! Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 06:22 Fierco wrote:
Ok, so I showed this to my friend, and he says this is just bronze league cheese and that he could easily beat it with 1 base nydus or something. How cause I explain to him that, that's not what it is? O_o
(he says he could win with 1 base infestors) Why don't you try the build vs him? or show him the replays of it working vs high level players. Also: question to OP, what do you do if the zerg drone scouts, do you try to prevent him from seeing the second zealot? I'm just wondering how this would affect your build.
I don't try to hide it to often when the zerg scouts me they seem to believe I'm doing a FE and steal my gas which makes my rush even stronger. Now on Shakuras I build my gateway closest to the middle on my ramp so if he gets fast overlord scout he wont see me crono my gateway.
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On August 12 2011 06:22 Fierco wrote:
Ok, so I showed this to my friend, and he says this is just bronze league cheese and that he could easily beat it with 1 base nydus or something. How cause I explain to him that, that's not what it is? O_o
(he says he could win with 1 base infestors)
I had a game where the zerg canceled his expo before I got there and just turtled all game with spines, speedlings and infestors. I hunted down all the overlords on the map took my expo built a lot of cannons down his ramp and even more at my natural. He couldn't do any damage with archon, HT, cannons, zealots and sentrys all over the map.
Basically 1 base Protoss > 1 base Zerg so just play very safe until its 2 base Protoss.
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On August 12 2011 07:47 CosmicSpiral wrote:
I think it's a very nice pressure build that exploits the standard PvZ metagame. If Z scouts the second zealot he will assume some sort of incoming tech and drone hard until he needs to defend it. This will catch him completely offguard. Personally I believe that Protoss players need to embrace soft pressure builds if they want to return PvZ to an even playing field, as macro openings like FFE are not working anymore.
On that note have you considered the possible transitions into a macro game?
Good to see you understand it the overall goal of this is just to be like a 2 rac bunker push into expo. However, its much stronger because zealots dominate drones and zerglings and Stalkers are a mobile 6 range unit vs slow queens.
I really do feel this has a place in the higher levels where players like Huk and MC with great FF micro will be able to expo behind this.
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This is just so disgusting! I love it! Will definitely try it out.
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I just saw your name and remembered that I might have played against this build and found the replay
imo it doesnt work too well against gasless expo build?
http://replayfu.com/r/9K3mxm (Hister vs RoyalFlush)
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On August 12 2011 17:48 RoyalFlush wrote:I just saw your name and remembered that I might have played against this build and found the replay imo it doesnt work too well against gasless expo build? http://replayfu.com/r/9K3mxm (Hister vs RoyalFlush)
If you look at the replay I ruined my rush minute 4:45 I had 2 stalkers qued as I was about to drop a cannon and another pylon but I didnt have the money. I remember this reviewing this replay thinking where is my money?
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So unorthodox, so to speak. Love that!!!! Thank you for a nice weird build. I guess I will try it out and post latter if I have questions
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Ah this is just DISGUSTING...
ly effective - Great work, I always felt toss could be more creative then doing 2 zealot pressure in the start people should really try this
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I tried this build and in plat league zergs will make a ton of lings and deny my probe plotting those 2-3 pylons. Then they have speed and take down my incoming stalkers. It works if you catch them offgaurd.
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I just got promoted to plat with this ( was tethering on the brink of plat for a while). PvZ my most hated matchup has become fun again I think more often than not you can plant the pylons and put down some cannons, by the time he breaks the contain with roaches and spines his econ will be far too behind to catch up if you don't fuck up
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edited: sorry wrong thread :S
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the problem with this build is mid master zergs always scout with tenth drone which pro gamers dont do.
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Wrote your name down to the 7 pool list. 
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On August 13 2011 23:43 ssregitoss wrote:
the problem with this build is mid master zergs always scout with tenth drone which pro gamers dont do.
yes? and how does that matter?
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I'm finding it really frustrating trying this build and haven't won with it yet. every zerg sees that i'm doing something a little nonstandard with the early scout and then just builds an extra queen and more early zerlings. The pylon grid doesn't help with 2 queens and 8 zerlings against 2 zealots, a stalker, and 2 probes.
Must be yet another build that only work in the master/GM metagame where zergs are gentlemanly and generally just don't build early attacking units unless they're hit over the head with a hammer.
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Very interesting and creative, well done.
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Seems like one hella hard thing to deal with while trying to keep your hatch alive.
I have one question: how does this fare against Zerg players who open speedling expand? the LZgamer replay showed its effectiveness vs that kind of opener, but I'm rather skeptical about this replay demonstrating its effectiveness vs a speedling expand. LzGamer did NOT play optimally in any way shape or form. I'm just worried because this early in the game, forgetting an overlord on 9 and not doing an extractor trick can set Zerg behind. With something like this, I'm worried that it drastically altered his timings. You can already see that his speed was VERY VERY late. Do you happen to have replays of a normally timed sling expand?
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Any zerg who early scouts and actually checks what building is being warped in will be 100% safe from this. Lings can intercept the probes early and he should be able to get a queen/ enough ling/drone no problem.
I wish the zergs I played against didnt scout so I could get away with stuff like this.
However, if you are lucky enough to not have it scouted and have Z react poorly it puts you in a VERY strong position, so long as you do not over commit up his ramp and die to his all in.
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hey it's me :o
You were suppose to get ht 
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On August 14 2011 01:46 Farkinator wrote:
Seems like one hella hard thing to deal with while trying to keep your hatch alive.
I have one question: how does this fare against Zerg players who open speedling expand? the LZgamer replay showed its effectiveness vs that kind of opener, but I'm rather skeptical about this replay demonstrating its effectiveness vs a speedling expand. LzGamer did NOT play optimally in any way shape or form. I'm just worried because this early in the game, forgetting an overlord on 9 and not doing an extractor trick can set Zerg behind. With something like this, I'm worried that it drastically altered his timings. You can already see that his speed was VERY VERY late. Do you happen to have replays of a normally timed sling expand?
I can still block and delay the FE even with speedlings. However I go back to my base and get ready for another timing push rather than try to hold his natural all game. If I've played someone whose seen me do this I basically just fake it and force 20 lings early and get a scout on his gas to see his speed timing so I know when to run.
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Just wanted to jump on and say thanks! I'm a high platinum Protoss player that has been struggling very badly with PvZ. I always feel like I'm on the back foot, behind from the start. I tried this a few times on the ladder and it works a treat.
I usually kill the hatch and set up a couple cannons as a contain, then expand behind it. Feels really good to not lose every PvZ I play now!
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So what is the proper zerg response? And at what point should a zerg realise this is happening?
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Thank you. I have been practicing this and it is working great Even when I fail (50%) I can still recover and win.
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This is a pretty sick build. They key, I think, is to delay probes after gate completes and chrono out that 1 zealot right away. Never stop chrono until your 2nd zeal is out. Then grab another probe (or 2 if you lost the 1st) and head to zerg base while chrono on the stalker. Throw down a forge, research warpgate. You'll get there and rarely will they have more than 6 lings if not just 2 or 4.
Don't think it's necessary to expand behind this. Just 5 gate for the most part and take it down. Don't skimp on the zealots as they are the key obv to beating a bunch of speedlings as well as keeping your army somewhat bunched up.
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wow this is very interesting! I like how you think on your toes with the pylon wallin to protect your units quite innovative. This is definitely something that will be game changing in pvz because zergs have to be much more weary of just producing only 2-4 lings now if they want a chance to hold this off. But my question to you is, have any zergs held this off before? and if so how did they hold it off? Secondly, you open gateway first on tal darim, so in the case where the zerg goes any pool under 10 pool how do you deal with it? cuz if he goes straight for the pylon that could be a problem I can see that might be quite tough to deal with. Regardless this is a very good timing you've found because I noticed that the expo hatch has just finished in most cases where the zerg CAN'T utilize their fresh expansion. Props to you Hister.
EDIT: oh yea when I ask have zergs held this off before, I mean against zergs who haven't played against you doing this strat before.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I swear I read this as "Hipster's PvZ Pylon Pressure" and I was thoroughly alarmed. Having read through it, though, I could see how these pylons could help you gain an advantage against a zerg player whose real goal is to get the hatch up and spam only drones and no units.
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On August 12 2011 03:42 pwadoc wrote:
What happens if the zerg anticipates this strategy, and uses their first queen to plant a tumor to deny the pylons?
fortunately, lol the first tumor doesn't spread that fast unless the zerg wants to sac his first inject I don't think thats the solution to stop this strat
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On August 17 2011 07:50 Cloudshade wrote:
wow this is very interesting! I like how you think on your toes with the pylon wallin to protect your units quite innovative. This is definitely something that will be game changing in pvz because zergs have to be much more weary of just producing only 2-4 lings now if they want a chance to hold this off. But my question to you is, have any zergs held this off before? and if so how did they hold it off? Secondly, you open gateway first on tal darim, so in the case where the zerg goes any pool under 10 pool how do you deal with it? cuz if he goes straight for the pylon that could be a problem I can see that might be quite tough to deal with. Regardless this is a very good timing you've found because I noticed that the expo hatch has just finished in most cases where the zerg CAN'T utilize their fresh expansion. Props to you Hister.
EDIT: oh yea when I ask have zergs held this off before, I mean against zergs who haven't played against you doing this strat before.
I've been totally crushed a lot doing this but it usually ends up 28 probes vs 22 drones with a delayed fe which makes it well wroth it.
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First of all, nice timing you figured out here. I've personally been experimenting a lot with early game cb unit pressure out of one gateway until ling speed is out (2zealots + stalkers) following it up with a fast nexus and 2 more gates or 1 gate and forge at my natural which has been fine in repelling the lings he had to make beforehand, giving me a safe and quick expo as well as stop him from droning up hardcore. Often times i'm able to not only force quite some lings, usually i get at least the queen at his natural and some drones (sniping the queen with stalkers is not too hard if he has no ling speed yet if the zealots don't get it).
Since you cut probe production at 16 supply to get your cyber down without any delay and don't delay your zealots as well combined with forge (pylon + canon block) or even more gates - depending on your flavor) however did quite more dmg, can't be compared.
I've watched all your replays and have been left with some questions I hope you could provide us some insight with. First of all, I totally loved your low ground pylon + gate as well as finishing your block at your natural to follow your aggression up with quite a quick nexus instead of a one base play followup. You showed this in your matches on shakuras as well as tal darim. I'm curious now though how this fares vs a 6pool (you wrote "Always build your gateway on the side you will leave open makes you immune to anything other than 6 pool." in your notes). What's your reaction to a 6pool? Can you wall of with forge + another gate or even just gate+ cyber (let it finish + forge and another pylon in the front? What's your response in that case and how far behind do you end up? Do you maybe have a replay showing this? I'm especially about tal darim when you scout him last with your gateway scout.
Another thing I was curious about. What if had faced the opponent beforehand already and did the very same thing. Apart from him bumping more lings and you being able to pull back when you see it with your 1st probe and being fine that he spent so much larvae on lings i was thinking about, what if he started a roach warren right after your scouting probe left his base (after checking his gas/pool timings) and then get his expo? Usually this indicates a 3RR+ lings/5RR/7RR or something like that and people who go for 1gate fe into nexus + 2 more gates (or one more gates + forge) at their natural always check again for that roach warren. I couldn't see you doing it. Getting a roach warren that early delays his expo and a normal macro zerg won't do this, however, like I said above, would fast roaches screw you? Did you run into this sometime? Maybe you could share us here also some insight or maybe even have a replay.
Do you have any replays showing how do you vs 9/10 pools maybe with a low ground pylon? (with high ground pylon i can't imagine you having any problems at all starting a cb zealot asap after a 12gate).
The replay I liked most is the one on shakuras vs birdkicker, where he scouted your cb gateway and asap went for more lings (unlike other zergs who went for like 2-4 more lings and some more drones first ... greedy zergs :-)) as well as starting a spine in his main asap (his natural had no creep yet) thereby being able to repell your attack. He didn't let you get your 3 pylon block up (just 2 pylons) and denied your canon. Still you managed to get a bit of a lead here checking the worker count/expo timing. I think this match shows the beauty of this build, you are able to apply nice pressure, which you can follow up easily with a nice macro game going into a midgame with a much better eco than compared to a normal fe opening.
Last but not least, your innovative usage of plyons in the match on shattered temple vs EGStrifeCro and then blocking the high ground again wiping out his whole main was really sweet, nice job.
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This is sort of a mix of a zealot rush and a natural cannon contain, with optional cannons  It looks amazing, I'll have to try this tomorrow when I'm coherent, thanks for sharing!
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The first two times i tried this I failed pretty hard with the cannon contain but the zergs pulled a lot of drones and made a ton of lings. The immortal/sentry/zealot push absolutely demolished them anyways. After 3 immortals I like pushing out and chronoing out a warp prism to warp in zealots on the creep, works nicely with the push.
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On August 18 2011 15:38 Fairwell wrote:
First of all, nice timing you figured out here. I've personally been experimenting a lot with early game cb unit pressure out of one gateway until ling speed is out (2zealots + stalkers) following it up with a fast nexus and 2 more gates or 1 gate and forge at my natural which has been fine in repelling the lings he had to make beforehand, giving me a safe and quick expo as well as stop him from droning up hardcore. Often times i'm able to not only force quite some lings, usually i get at least the queen at his natural and some drones (sniping the queen with stalkers is not too hard if he has no ling speed yet if the zealots don't get it).
Since you cut probe production at 16 supply to get your cyber down without any delay and don't delay your zealots as well combined with forge (pylon + canon block) or even more gates - depending on your flavor) however did quite more dmg, can't be compared.
I've watched all your replays and have been left with some questions I hope you could provide us some insight with. First of all, I totally loved your low ground pylon + gate as well as finishing your block at your natural to follow your aggression up with quite a quick nexus instead of a one base play followup. You showed this in your matches on shakuras as well as tal darim. I'm curious now though how this fares vs a 6pool (you wrote "Always build your gateway on the side you will leave open makes you immune to anything other than 6 pool." in your notes). What's your reaction to a 6pool? Can you wall of with forge + another gate or even just gate+ cyber (let it finish + forge and another pylon in the front? What's your response in that case and how far behind do you end up? Do you maybe have a replay showing this? I'm especially about tal darim when you scout him last with your gateway scout.
Another thing I was curious about. What if had faced the opponent beforehand already and did the very same thing. Apart from him bumping more lings and you being able to pull back when you see it with your 1st probe and being fine that he spent so much larvae on lings i was thinking about, what if he started a roach warren right after your scouting probe left his base (after checking his gas/pool timings) and then get his expo? Usually this indicates a 3RR+ lings/5RR/7RR or something like that and people who go for 1gate fe into nexus + 2 more gates (or one more gates + forge) at their natural always check again for that roach warren. I couldn't see you doing it. Getting a roach warren that early delays his expo and a normal macro zerg won't do this, however, like I said above, would fast roaches screw you? Did you run into this sometime? Maybe you could share us here also some insight or maybe even have a replay.
Do you have any replays showing how do you vs 9/10 pools maybe with a low ground pylon? (with high ground pylon i can't imagine you having any problems at all starting a cb zealot asap after a 12gate).
The replay I liked most is the one on shakuras vs birdkicker, where he scouted your cb gateway and asap went for more lings (unlike other zergs who went for like 2-4 more lings and some more drones first ... greedy zergs :-)) as well as starting a spine in his main asap (his natural had no creep yet) thereby being able to repell your attack. He didn't let you get your 3 pylon block up (just 2 pylons) and denied your canon. Still you managed to get a bit of a lead here checking the worker count/expo timing. I think this match shows the beauty of this build, you are able to apply nice pressure, which you can follow up easily with a nice macro game going into a midgame with a much better eco than compared to a normal fe opening.
Last but not least, your innovative usage of plyons in the match on shattered temple vs EGStrifeCro and then blocking the high ground again wiping out his whole main was really sweet, nice job.
I've been able to stop 6 pool on close positions on tal darim altar pulling most of my probes of course. What to do after you hold off the first wave of lings though is extremely technical you don't want to get a nexus and have 20 lings kill you but you don't want him to have made 10 lings then fe behind this so the only thing you can do is keep making units and scouting his ling numbers to see if you can counter or atleast look like you're going to attack him to force more lings.
I've done this same build to the same players several times in the ladder if they can't deal with it and no else does it how do they learn to counter it. However, the best way to work on this though is I join 1v1 metaloplis obs games in the custom list and will just keep doing this rush over and over again. From doing this I've found a better way to cannon that doesn't involve using ramp block but a pylon wall with single holes in it near the ramp this optimizes the wall size, makes zerglings very ineffective and removes the queen from the fight.
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Can you post replays of your new style that doesn't involve blocking the ramp but instead leaving holes?
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I cant seem to download any of the replays...
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Calgary25977 Posts
Whoa, I've never thought of this. Sounds strong in theory. Excited to try it out!
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Well i guess protoss has nothing but all-ins up there sleeves, hf allining people on ladder and then complain about 1/1/1 all in, it is karma
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I think replayfu.com is down...
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Weird. I clicked on the links but can't view the reps...hmmmm.
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On September 10 2011 04:12 TolEranceNA wrote:Well i guess protoss has nothing but all-ins up there sleeves, hf allining people on ladder and then complain about 1/1/1 all in, it is karma
2 things....
#1. It's not an all-in, according to the OP.
#2. People tell Protoss to try new builds, and when we try new tactics of pressure, etc. we get called gimmicky and cheesy? I don't get people sometimes.
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yeah, the replays are down, could you host them somewhere else? I really want to study this because my PvZ is atrocious right now
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On September 10 2011 04:31 ma70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:12 TolEranceNA wrote:Well i guess protoss has nothing but all-ins up there sleeves, hf allining people on ladder and then complain about 1/1/1 all in, it is karma 2 things.... #1. It's not an all-in, according to the OP. #2. People tell Protoss to try new builds, and when we try new tactics of pressure, etc. we get called gimmicky and cheesy? I don't get people sometimes.
stop being so sensitive, i believe it was all said in good humor. I hope i never run into this... It's so frustrating dying to pylons.
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I'm not really being sensitive, it was just a response to a post.....
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On September 10 2011 04:01 AEsgaims wrote:
I cant seem to download any of the replays...
Same. Would love to see replays, thank you for the post!
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I watched the replay vs EGStrifeCo from his perspective and I like the idea. It has the capacity to rapidly change the game and doesn't necessarily have an easy tell.
To me, at least, it's a clear tell that SOMETHING is up when you leave the ramp with 2 zealots, a stalker, and a probe. But it seems weird for 4gate even with the gas steal.
Do you have any replays of you losing to this build, and what has stopped it so far?
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You're such a bastard (you know in a good way). I love everything about this. Personaly i will be focusing on refining your idea to get a quicker expansion. Thanks for posting this
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...But why? Tournaments don't allow you to wall off the bottom of a ramp, so what's the point in practicing this?
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EPT
