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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On October 03 2011 23:43 Noocta wrote:
Just a general question.. How do you deal with being behind in upgrades in TvZ ?
I feel like the zerglings are way too potent when they out upgrade marines in my tank marine attacks. And if i stay defensive while catching up, the zerg develop way too much to handle it. :/
To clarify, they get quicker upgrades and delay Muta, and when on spire tech, they get just as many muta it need to deflect drops with massive upgraded zergling baneling if i attack with my whole army.
Delaying spire tech for upgrades can open up big windows to do good pressure with dropship play. From personal experience, well executed drop play makes it very difficult for zerg players without mutas or infestors to hold a 3rd base, which seriously cuts into later muta production and upgrades.
At the very least you can definitely force tons of zerglings/banelings/spines.
Also, make sure your timing attacks are built around when you finish upgrades so that the difference in ups is minimized.
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What is your guys timing on the third in TvP? Ive recently watched some korean Terrans, and it seems like they take very late thirds. (around 15 minutes). Whats the reasoning behind this? Is it more important to deny Protoss a easy third than take your own? Sounds kinda logical because protoss army is more gas intensive. What do you guys think about it?
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On October 05 2011 02:25 Diderick wrote:
What is your guys timing on the third in TvP? Ive recently watched some korean Terrans, and it seems like they take very late thirds. (around 15 minutes). Whats the reasoning behind this? Is it more important to deny Protoss a easy third than take your own? Sounds kinda logical because protoss army is more gas intensive. What do you guys think about it?
I've had most success in TvP with early 2nd base late 2 base timings (Expand with push).
If I wait and try to macro a 3rd things tend not to go well. Let's say that I scout a Toss FE and I drop a 3rd. I tend to lose so much to their 2 base push that even with 3 OC and mule income, defending is hard.
I recommend 2 base stim push with medivacs, send some scvs to buffer damage (I dont care if thats considered "all in", terran units get pulverzized otherwise) and if that attack fails it will at least do enough daamge to put you ahead.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 05 2011 02:25 Diderick wrote:
What is your guys timing on the third in TvP? Ive recently watched some korean Terrans, and it seems like they take very late thirds. (around 15 minutes). Whats the reasoning behind this? Is it more important to deny Protoss a easy third than take your own? Sounds kinda logical because protoss army is more gas intensive. What do you guys think about it?
You can take a late 3rd if you're all in on 2 base. Taking a 15 minute third base basically means you're taking a 3rd in time to maynard your scvs over from your main as it gets mined out, letting you have another 6-7 minutes of 2-base economy. I usually get a couple dropships in the air and into the Protoss airspace so he can't move out, clearing out towers etc for map control, and slap down my 3rd during that time.
In theory you don't need a 3rd unless the Protoss has one-- on a 2 base vs 2 base situation, neither player inherently has an advantage (this is true of most matchups). However, the more bases there are on both sides of the field, the more options open up for both players. On 3+ bases the Protoss player can invest into a tech switch to a different form of splash (archons/HTs or Colossi), making his army substantially more dangerous. However, as the Protoss gets more spread out, he's more susceptible to Terran drops, and on large number of bases, the possibility of a Terran deathball of 10-15 Ghosts becomes reality, making even the smallest micro error by the Protoss instantly punished with the ineffectiveness of his sentries, archons, and HTs.
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2base all-ins are superior to 3base play IMO.
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On October 05 2011 07:05 Klyberess wrote:
2base all-ins are superior to 3base play IMO.
>2 base play makes me lose my focus so much XD It's really bad XD I float recources like air floats on water, unbelievably much!
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 05 2011 07:05 Klyberess wrote:
2base all-ins are superior to 3base play IMO.
I must respectfully disagree. Early in the game, protoss has a variety of strong timing attacks and all-ins, and fighting in someone's natural or main means you're more susceptible to forcefields. As the game goes on, bases become more spread out, making drop play substantially more powerful. I think that terran DOES have good 2 base all-ins in TvP, but I think that a 2 base all-in takes a lot of risks, whereas if the game goes into the late game, the better player will usually win as APMs get taxed.
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Who is the best Terran player right now? SlayersMMA? Is he the best in every matchup?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 05 2011 10:15 KenDM wrote:
Who is the best Terran player right now? SlayersMMA? Is he the best in every matchup?
By ELO (Korean), MVP has the best TvT and TvZ, but Bomber outdoes him in TvP. Overall ELO, MVP is the highest.
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On October 05 2011 11:14 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 10:15 KenDM wrote:
Who is the best Terran player right now? SlayersMMA? Is he the best in every matchup? By ELO (Korean), MVP has the best TvT and TvZ, but Bomber outdoes him in TvP. Overall ELO, MVP is the highest.
What is ELO exactly? I only know that SlayersMMA recently beat IMMVVP in a bunch of TvT's  Doesn't that make him better?
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Hello,
I'm a high platinum player who is trying his hardest to get into diamond and I'm really starting to struggle. I have been reading through this thread and soaking in all the tips I see and I finally decided that it was time I grab a replay and ask for help. TvZ has been giving me nightmares. I feel like scared to do anything. It's as if they (the zergs) are everywhere at once, just waiting for me to start some kind of push so that they can throw crazy amounts of lings and banelings at me.
So here is a replay of a game that I could have won? I'm not sure because I can only guess what would have been different about this game had a few things gone different.
Here is the replay - http://drop.sc/40776
Let's say that I had dropped my marines at each overlord I saw instead of moving to his base to kill them off, and lets say that I didn't walk onto baneling landmines, would you think that's a game that I was on my way to winning? I've played some bad games, but this one was one that I thought I was playing great until it all just disappeared.
Thank you.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 05 2011 11:25 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 11:14 Blazinghand wrote:On October 05 2011 10:15 KenDM wrote:
Who is the best Terran player right now? SlayersMMA? Is he the best in every matchup? By ELO (Korean), MVP has the best TvT and TvZ, but Bomber outdoes him in TvP. Overall ELO, MVP is the highest. What is ELO exactly? I only know that SlayersMMA recently beat IMMVVP in a bunch of TvT's Doesn't that make him better?
ELO is the tournament-based ranking system that TLPD uses to sort professionals. You can find the list of terran players here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?section=sc2-korean&race=T
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On October 05 2011 11:43 MrErikM wrote:Hello, I'm a high platinum player who is trying his hardest to get into diamond and I'm really starting to struggle. I have been reading through this thread and soaking in all the tips I see and I finally decided that it was time I grab a replay and ask for help. TvZ has been giving me nightmares. I feel like scared to do anything. It's as if they (the zergs) are everywhere at once, just waiting for me to start some kind of push so that they can throw crazy amounts of lings and banelings at me. So here is a replay of a game that I could have won? I'm not sure because I can only guess what would have been different about this game had a few things gone different. Here is the replay - http://drop.sc/40776Let's say that I had dropped my marines at each overlord I saw instead of moving to his base to kill them off, and lets say that I didn't walk onto baneling landmines, would you think that's a game that I was on my way to winning? I've played some bad games, but this one was one that I thought I was playing great until it all just disappeared. Thank you.
TLDR incoming
Just off the bat a small thing I love to do. Whenever I see Zergs going pool first (which is rare but still) I always block their expo with an almost completed engi bay. This either forces them to all in with roaches which is easily stoppable by building one bunker and/or scouting, or it severely slows down their economy, and then you just cancel the engi bay when it's about to die.
On to the game -
- I don't see the reason for getting more rax after you go reaper expand. The reaper expand build is nice because it allows you to tech relatively quickly to tanks and medivacs, so by getting 2 rax you nullify the point of that.
- Good reaper harass, but you should also scout the Zerg main if you can. Scouting is huge in any match up, and people seriously underestimate the power of it.
- If you're floating a lot of minerals just drop a CC, double engi bay, and some production facilities. Reactored rax are ofc the best way to make sure you never float a lot of minerals. You could also drop 3+ supply depots at a time and that will also help your supply blocks.
-get reactors on barracks asap. As the game goes on and you build more rax with reactors your marine production will be ridiculous.
-If possible, keep a unit right on the Zerg's usual 3rd position. The 3rd base is CRUCIAL in the TvZ match up, and I find that in my games everything revolves around the Zerg getting his third base. Not only will you scout that he wants to get it, but also be able to kill the drone until his units show up.
- Start Scanning the Zerg main at about 16 minutes. This is about the time where most Zergs will have or start their Hive, and you HAVE TO know that Blords are coming.
By far your biggest problems this game were - a) you were floating too many resources and b) you didn't have any map control after you reapers died. You can fix this by always dropping rax with reactors whenever your minerals climb too high and getting CCs at appropriate time.
On to the map control issue. I actually had the exact same issue (im high masters) versus Zerg for the longest time, and 99% of the time I found myself stuck on 2 bases with mutas harassing me, moving out to take my third, and by that time Zerg was already all over the map and the game was lost.
To help this, I started doing reactor hellion FE opening almost every game. It's ridiculous how good hellions are for map control and in the early/mid game in general. They give you map vision, give you the opportunity to kill a TON of drones if Zerg isn't responding properly, force zerg to get mutas or roaches, and completely shut down Zerg's attempts to get a third base until he gets roaches or mutas to drive your hellions out. By the time they do, you're already on equal economic footing and can start building units to respond to mutas/ roaches.
Anyway I already wrote too much but I hope this helps
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On October 05 2011 16:50 Scila wrote:+ Show Spoiler +TLDR incoming Just off the bat a small thing I love to do. Whenever I see Zergs going pool first (which is rare but still) I always block their expo with an almost completed engi bay. This either forces them to all in with roaches which is easily stoppable by building one bunker and/or scouting, or it severely slows down their economy, and then you just cancel the engi bay when it's about to die. On to the game - - I don't see the reason for getting more rax after you go reaper expand. The reaper expand build is nice because it allows you to tech relatively quickly to tanks and medivacs, so by getting 2 rax you nullify the point of that. - Good reaper harass, but you should also scout the Zerg main if you can. Scouting is huge in any match up, and people seriously underestimate the power of it. - If you're floating a lot of minerals just drop a CC, double engi bay, and some production facilities. Reactored rax are ofc the best way to make sure you never float a lot of minerals. You could also drop 3+ supply depots at a time and that will also help your supply blocks. -get reactors on barracks asap. As the game goes on and you build more rax with reactors your marine production will be ridiculous. -If possible, keep a unit right on the Zerg's usual 3rd position. The 3rd base is CRUCIAL in the TvZ match up, and I find that in my games everything revolves around the Zerg getting his third base. Not only will you scout that he wants to get it, but also be able to kill the drone until his units show up. - Start Scanning the Zerg main at about 16 minutes. This is about the time where most Zergs will have or start their Hive, and you HAVE TO know that Blords are coming. By far your biggest problems this game were - a) you were floating too many resources and b) you didn't have any map control after you reapers died. You can fix this by always dropping rax with reactors whenever your minerals climb too high and getting CCs at appropriate time. On to the map control issue. I actually had the exact same issue (im high masters) versus Zerg for the longest time, and 99% of the time I found myself stuck on 2 bases with mutas harassing me, moving out to take my third, and by that time Zerg was already all over the map and the game was lost. To help this, I started doing reactor hellion FE opening almost every game. It's ridiculous how good hellions are for map control and in the early/mid game in general. They give you map vision, give you the opportunity to kill a TON of drones if Zerg isn't responding properly, force zerg to get mutas or roaches, and completely shut down Zerg's attempts to get a third base until he gets roaches or mutas to drive your hellions out. By the time they do, you're already on equal economic footing and can start building units to respond to mutas/ roaches. Anyway I already wrote too much but I hope this helps
Wow, thank you for taking the time to write all that up. After I posted this I logged on to win 2 games against Zerg, once of which was a diamond player. So I was feeling pretty good when I saw this and I am going to try and keep these tips in mind!
Once again, thank you!
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I was reading this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 and I got to thinking about the viability of these kinds of builds. I was also sort of inspired by Terran's position in between the tech-heavy Protoss and the swarm of the Zerg, and T's ability to play both styles. I like the Raven's potential for harassment and I think treating Marines like lings would be a really interesting way to play. Maybe with a couple of tanks for defense?
Against Protoss and Terran, what do you think about the feasibility of using mass Marauders and Vikings, with a couple of Ravens for defense? A giant ball of Marauders and Vikings sounds absolutely indestructible, especially if you can put down a wall of turrets in front of chargelots, or even use Vikings to tank damage.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 06 2011 12:13 whoopingchow wrote:
Against Protoss and Terran, what do you think about the feasibility of using mass Marauders and Vikings, with a couple of Ravens for defense? A giant ball of Marauders and Vikings sounds absolutely indestructible, especially if you can put down a wall of turrets in front of chargelots, or even use Vikings to tank damage.
Against Protoss. Marauder/Viking is considered pretty normal if he's going colossus/gateway. As he adds other things like templar, archons etc you're going to need ghosts. You'll also want medivacs to heal between fights and to allow you to drop. Also, massing ravens is dangerous given the effectivness and mobility of the protoss air units-- but a few wouldn't hurt. This brings us to the standard, MMMVG, but supplemented by ravens.
Against Terran, massing marauders with air units (don't forget medivacs!) is ok against full mech, but against marine/tank, you'll have a lot of trouble, since he can match your mobility with strong barracks units.
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Yo,
Just played a game on Shattered against a High Diamond Protoss I lost to his 6 gate archon chargelot push.
I went 1 rax marauder pressure into expansion. I saw him taking his second gas early which made me to believe it was some kind of void ray/dt cheese this wasn't the case.
He went for a 3g sentry expand as mostly done in PvZ.
When my expansion was saturated and his was done as well I made a reaper to see his tech I spotted a TC one upgrading forge and 4ish gateways. At that point I had already made my factory and I wasn't sure wether to get ghosts first or medivacs.
I went for ghosts being scared of early storm play. He ended up doing this push which I couldve probably defended with medivacs. But I am very unsure on trusting myself on making an decision.
My mistakes this game:
Took 4 of my gasses while I didn't needed them all
Sloppy teching -> didn't know perfectly how to react
Not having my army in a control group so I ended up having terribad micro
My questions:
What's a good way to know what the protoss is up to, cause once you have seen if hes going TC or robo there still are allot of options.
With collosus you have time to react but with zealot archon I feel they can take an earlier third, push, allin etc. Basically I am looking for timings.
Should I go for medivacs anyway and get ghosts later in this situation?
Replay: http://drop.sc/41216
Other trivial info:
SQ: 84 (What is SQ)
EAPM: 92
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Hey guys, I was wondering when the earliest in game time a 6 pool can hit
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 07 2011 07:33 IMOrchid wrote:
Hey guys, I was wondering when the earliest in game time a 6 pool can hit
6 pool starts making at 0:40, and is done at around 1:45 (could be a few sesconds earlier with ideal splitting, etc, or a few seconds later too). Lings finish around 2:10, and will arrive at your base as quickly as 30 seconds later (backwater gulch anticlockwise) or as late as a full minute later (tal'darim altar cross positions) depending on maps and spawns.
The time range for a 6 pool to hit you is between 2:40 and 3:10, depending on rush distance and the worker split.
If you're going for a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax, your wall will be up. If you're going 12 barracks 13 gas, your second depot starts, finishing your wall, at about 2:40-- coming up just in time to stop a 6 pool.
If you're going 12 barracks, 13 gas, 16 OC (not cutting a third of an scv, delaying OC by a food) then things get trickier. Your supply depot starts at 17 food in this case (due to the marine making), which means on backwater gulch anticlockwise and shattered temple close positions, there's an alarming 6-7 seconds where you have no wall and the zerg is trying to get all up in your business. HOWEVER, to be entirely safe against 6 pool, you can send your scv 8 seconds early to the wall, and cancel your marine and slap down the 2nd depot if you see lings coming up the ramp.
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Hi just started playing sc2 recently and currently in top silver. For my first BO I practiced 2 rax 3 bunkers FE but found it impracticable on maps with open choked to the naturals. I decided to try 1/1/1 for a while and now I have switched to 3 rax but not entirely sure if its still a viable build. Does anyone have any general advice on BOs? I've been reading a lot on this forum and not sure if I should be sticking to the one general BO against all match ups and improving my other areas or if I need to use a different BO for each different matchup. Also can anyone comment on the viability of the 3 BOs I've been using.
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EPT
