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On October 10 2011 11:21 TheWarbler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:52 MysteryHours wrote:
TvP, I'm going 1 Rax gasless FE. At 5:45 I scout a Void Ray/Stalker all-in. My CC has landed, I have 3 rax up and a bunker is finishing. What should I do at this point to prepare? When I 1rax FE After I throw down my 16 CC then depot or CC after depot depending on map. After that I Build a bunker when I can afford and then build 3Rax's as I get he 150 minerals for each one. so you have 4RAX and a bunker by like 4min or something I don't know the time. But depending on what you scout you throw down more bunkers. Sometime after I get my 4th Rax up I build a engi for a turret against DT's and if I scout VR all-in I build 3 turrets 2 at each side of my expansion 1 far from my ramp 1 near, then 1 in my base. then just defend defend defend till you get your Vikings out. I get my first gas on like 28-29 then 2nd on 43.
i've found that going 4 rax (and delaying starport tech a little more) dies to 1 base colossi timing.... ur better off holding with 3 rax AND with the right addons (either 2 reactors 1 tech if not AOE units (colossi, storm) or 2 techlabs 1 reactor in case there's AOE and the right counter (vikings or ghosts)
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On October 09 2011 18:45 Iceman16 wrote:
Hi just started playing sc2 recently and currently in top silver. For my first BO I practiced 2 rax 3 bunkers FE but found it impracticable on maps with open choked to the naturals. I decided to try 1/1/1 for a while and now I have switched to 3 rax but not entirely sure if its still a viable build. Does anyone have any general advice on BOs? I've been reading a lot on this forum and not sure if I should be sticking to the one general BO against all match ups and improving my other areas or if I need to use a different BO for each different matchup. Also can anyone comment on the viability of the 3 BOs I've been using.
I used that opening in all my games, and it took me from gold to diamond in about 2 months. I went a step further and did one gameplan in all games, all matchups.
12/14 Rax 5 marine pressure
2 Rax 3 Bunker FE (turrets instead of bunkers in TvT)
3rd Rax+Stim/Shields
2 Fact Tank/Thor (push 1/2 across map with first 2 tanks and all marines, 3/4 across with 6 tanks, force engage with 6 Tanks+2 Thors)
Ebay+Armory double attack upgrades
6 more Rax+1 Starport (1 Raven, then Vikings/Medivacs depending upon extra gas)
Big push, double expand behind it
Add 4 more Factories with techlabs for quick remax
And then from there I let myself play around in the lategame. In TvT I added Ghosts to nuke push siege lines. In TvP I swapped from Tank to Thor production, and gradualoy flushed my marines away until I build up a 200/200 army of thors and macro orbitals, calling down mules to autorepair. In TvZ I added Medivacs and dropped vulneable expansions.
When you're in a lower league I think its best to limit your BOs as much as possible so you can focus on improving your macro and mechanics. If you try to also improve your scouting and strategical decision making (practicing and choosing different BOs) you're trying to do too many things at once and you're not going to get better at any of them.
Now that I've made it into high diamond I've been playing around with some different openers and been very successful with them, but only because of my fundamental training.
However I did personalize the 2 Rax 3 Bunk FE opening a bit for myself. I use a 12/14 Rax to apply early pressure with my first 5 marines (magic number to one shot Zerglings). They're not supposed to do damage, they're just to scout if the opponent is one basing or doing some crazy tech like DT/VR. I get my double gas before I throw down the tripple bunkers at the natural, because I've found that if they are onebasing hardcore I really want to defend up my ramp instead of at my natural. I get double tech lab on my Raxes and get Stim+Combat Shield with my first 200 gas to help bridge the period between when my expo lands and the time I start cranking higher gas units. It just makes sense when you have soooo many marines from this opening.
Also, in TvT I skip the bunkers altogether and instead get a faster ebay+turrets. The only thing you need a bunker for in TvT is against an marine/scv all in, and those hit before the bunkers go down anyway. Both Banshees and Drops are bigger threats because they can move faster than your marines without stim. You can repel all other early pressure with marine+scv.
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Thanks for the advice on taking back xel'naga towers in the tvt mid to late game. One more question:
Gave some thought to ghosts in tvt and I like the idea of using nukes to help jockey for key positions on the map, especially near xel'naga towers. Does anyone have experience with this play, especially on things like the kind of upgrades would help nuke play? Can I just skip cloak and energy upgrades and just make nukes instead (how important are they)? It's not like I'm going to keep my ghosts within range of opponent tank fire when nuking them.
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On October 11 2011 16:20 halpimcat wrote:
Thanks for the advice on taking back xel'naga towers in the tvt mid to late game. One more question:
Gave some thought to ghosts in tvt and I like the idea of using nukes to help jockey for key positions on the map, especially near xel'naga towers. Does anyone have experience with this play, especially on things like the kind of upgrades would help nuke play? Can I just skip cloak and energy upgrades and just make nukes instead (how important are they)? It's not like I'm going to keep my ghosts within range of opponent tank fire when nuking them.
There are many ways to use nukes in TvT and I'm sure many are unexplored/not fully explored, but most generally they are used in split map scenarios to force unseiges.
In this case, you necessarily should have half the map, and thus plenty of resources to get cloak, energy, and lots of nukes.
Beatyqt is known for being nukehappy. If you want some solid and creative uses of nukes in all three matchups, check out his stream and I think he even posted a reppack recently.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:07 Bojas wrote:
Yo,
Just played a game on Shattered against a High Diamond Protoss I lost to his 6 gate archon chargelot push.
I went 1 rax marauder pressure into expansion. I saw him taking his second gas early which made me to believe it was some kind of void ray/dt cheese this wasn't the case.
He went for a 3g sentry expand as mostly done in PvZ.
When my expansion was saturated and his was done as well I made a reaper to see his tech I spotted a TC one upgrading forge and 4ish gateways. At that point I had already made my factory and I wasn't sure wether to get ghosts first or medivacs.
I went for ghosts being scared of early storm play. He ended up doing this push which I couldve probably defended with medivacs. But I am very unsure on trusting myself on making an decision.
My mistakes this game:
Took 4 of my gasses while I didn't needed them all
Sloppy teching -> didn't know perfectly how to react
Not having my army in a control group so I ended up having terribad micro
My questions:
What's a good way to know what the protoss is up to, cause once you have seen if hes going TC or robo there still are allot of options.
With collosus you have time to react but with zealot archon I feel they can take an earlier third, push, allin etc. Basically I am looking for timings.
Should I go for medivacs anyway and get ghosts later in this situation?
Well, there's a number of things you can do to deal with the protoss, but as a general rule, it's hard to take a 3rd base against him without doing some sort of pressure or map control play, either using quick ghosts to hit his sentries and get an advantageous fight, or (and I prefer this), quick medivacs to establish map control and keep him in his base. Chargelots and Archons are slow and bad at hitting medivacs, letting you drop indiscriminately.
A quick TC usually means Chargelot with Archon /HT support, but it can also mean blink stalkers, or quick +2/+2 (or some combination). This will rely on you scouting his composition. If he's got a lot of stalkers, he's going for blink stalkers-- otherwise he's getting upgrades or charge.
A quick Robo does NOT always mean colossus play. Almost all protoss players build a robo, even in non-colossus play, because it builds vital support units like the observer and warp prism. The tells for colossus play include a quick robo bay (obviously), but also things like quick gasses and few sentries. It's rare to see a TC and also colossi until the third base is taken, but in some cases where both players are trapped on 2 base, you'll see a tech switch.
The best response I can give I'd say is to go for medivacs anyways. Walls and bunkers are better against Chargelot/Archons than against Colossi, so you'll be a little better on the defense, and drops are stronger against a stalker-light composition. Watch out for feedback, though-- if your medivac energy gets high, you may want to stim some units to lower it.
On October 10 2011 09:27 karis wrote:
how do you counter a super turtling player who builds a ton of tanks and missle turrest and goes to BCs?
I keep getting super frustrated and can't seem to find an effective way to counter it.
TvT is pretty tough in this respect; it's usually easier to defend than to attack. Ideally, you want to use scanner sweeps to keep an eye on your opponent's army composition and stay ahead of the game in that respect (gas is usually the limiting factor in these late game situations). If you can, get a base ahead of him, or deny him one of the bases he wants to take, and go for a similar composition yourself. Air weapons and armor will be a deciding factor, as will the presence of support units like ravens and support AA like thors. Use ravens for PDD or seeker missile if you can get close enough, and if you have a thor or two, focus it into the stacked vikings where it can actually do damage.
On October 10 2011 06:58 xmikeyy17x wrote:
i'm a high gold toss wanting to learn terran. i've been working on my mechanics w/ 3-rax.
whats the standard build for tvz.
as of right now i hate z for toss and terran. idk but i can't beat them.
A standard TvZ build that I use that expands quickly, puts on pressure, and transitions smoothly into a standard midgame is the  Reactor Hellion Expand (vs. Zerg). It gets a quick factory and an expansion, and gives you some hellions to micro-- good times all around. You can swap addons back later for reactored marine production, and use the factory for tanks in the midgame.
On October 10 2011 10:19 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 07:50 Blazinghand wrote:On October 07 2011 07:33 IMOrchid wrote:
Hey guys, I was wondering when the earliest in game time a 6 pool can hit 6 pool starts making at 0:40, and is done at around 1:45 (could be a few sesconds earlier with ideal splitting, etc, or a few seconds later too). Lings finish around 2:10, and will arrive at your base as quickly as 30 seconds later (backwater gulch anticlockwise) or as late as a full minute later (tal'darim altar cross positions) depending on maps and spawns. The time range for a 6 pool to hit you is between 2:40 and 3:10, depending on rush distance and the worker split. If you're going for a 1 rax FE or a 2 rax, your wall will be up. If you're going 12 barracks 13 gas, your second depot starts, finishing your wall, at about 2:40-- coming up just in time to stop a 6 pool. If you're going 12 barracks, 13 gas, 16 OC (not cutting a third of an scv, delaying OC by a food) then things get trickier. Your supply depot starts at 17 food in this case (due to the marine making), which means on backwater gulch anticlockwise and shattered temple close positions, there's an alarming 6-7 seconds where you have no wall and the zerg is trying to get all up in your business. HOWEVER, to be entirely safe against 6 pool, you can send your scv 8 seconds early to the wall, and cancel your marine and slap down the 2nd depot if you see lings coming up the ramp. A good 6-pooler will all ways send an early scouting drone to block the wall-off. Even so, you should NEVER die to a 6 pool with terran; just use mineral stacking with your scvs to easilty kill the zerglings, get a marine, finish the wall off, and you win.
A good 6-pooler will try to block the wall-off with the scouting drone. You can usually ward this away with a few pulled scvs, and it's worth the lost mining time to stop a 6 pool.
On October 10 2011 14:27 whistle wrote:
Protoss main, offrace T for fun. Estimating my TvP and TvZ as diamond and TvT as plat. Anyways, I have a question about when to add specific buildings in my TvZ reactor hellion expand into tank/marine push. I think this is a pretty common question, but Liquidpedia didn't really answer it sufficiently and a search / ctrl-f in this thread didn't give any answers either.
I open dirt standard, 13 rax, fact @ 100 gas, etc. I pull two guys off gas at 150 gas to get a quicker CC, then immediately put them back on after the CC is started. Once my rax finishes the reactor, I make two tech labs with it (lifting off the first one). At 4 hellions, the factory goes onto the empty tech lab, and a new barracks is built on the reactor. Third barracks @ 150 minerals. I know I don't have many units with all this swapping (and not using the reactor), but I think I can adjust adequately based on scouting.
Anyways, the questions:
1) When should my second gas be added? I know I need it for stim/siege mode/tanks, but I don't know where in the order of buildings/addons it goes.
2) Is it worth waiting for combat shield before my push?
3) When should I add on my starport tech (assuming standard ling/bling/muta non-all in play from Z).
Thanks all!
1) I add on the 2nd gas after I've started my CC. My goal is to be adding workers to the 2nd gas as I do the reverse addon swap, so I can take advantage of the additional gas income to make tanks.
2) If you start combat shield early, then waiting 15-20 seconds for it can make a big difference. That being said, you often will be fighting closer to the zerg base than your own, so it's OK to move out when it's close to finished but not yet finished.
3) Usually for me this goes "by feel"... I prefer to get a quick third base on a lot of maps with defendable, chokey thirds (antiga and shattered temple come to mind)... but ideally you're looking to start a starport at about 10:30 ish. You want to have a medivac out by the time mutas reach your base, so that you can use stimpack to defend.
On October 10 2011 16:13 Zombo Joe wrote:
Is there a safe TvP expand build like the PvT 3 gate FE? I really don't like dying all the time to allins because I 1 raxed.
The worst is just dying to an Immortal bust even when I scout it.
3 gate sentry expo isn't fully safe because it doesn't get detection-- it's only good if you can tell the terran isn't going for quick banshees. You're probably thinking of the 2 Gate Robo expand for maximum safety.
I'd consider a build that's safe against any Protoss all-in (at the cost of a fair amount of economy and expansion speed) Warden's "Deathball" TvP opening, a scouting-heavy 1-1-1 expo: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753
The main disadvantage of this build is that against some fast expanding protoss builds, you have to go all in because you won't keep up economically-- but you'll always have the tools to stop the protoss all in thanks to the quick starport and factory.
On October 10 2011 16:16 BobTheLob wrote:
i need some help with defending 2 base ling/banling all-ins on taldarime after a 2 rax expo into rine tank thanks in advance :D
I think you'll need to post a replay for us to see exactly what's going on. As a general rule, I like to add on my additional rax in TvZ on tal'darim as wall at the front of my natural, and coupled with a couple depots, that completely seals me in. If I have a tank with siege mode up in time, I use it to focus-fire the banelings. That being said, I'm not sure exactly what kind of ling/bane all-in we're talking about.
If you have the time, put something on drop.sc and share the link here-- I'll be glad to take a look.
On October 11 2011 00:27 whoopingchow wrote:
So after IPLs, anyone notice the distinct lack of tank lines, mass Vikings, and Thors? Why has mech play fallen so far out of favor? Is it because everyone's doing quick timing attacks (it looked like most initial engagements occurred around 8-10 minutes)?
Are we talking about professional play, or ladder play? On the ladder, I've seen a lot of quick tank rushes/contains with a viking or medivac, but TvT goes through a lot of "phases" in terms of what builds are popular. If we're talking about a lack of full mech play, that may be due to the recent Infernal Pre-Igniter nerf-- though IMMvp seems to get by just fine regardless.
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How do you attack in TvT and how do you position your tanks to be the cover the most ground? This one TvT I played I controlled the center on Antigia Shipyard with hellion/tank/viking but he just went around it and went into my nat and main with a ton of bfh and killed me T_T
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On October 12 2011 01:17 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 16:20 halpimcat wrote:
Thanks for the advice on taking back xel'naga towers in the tvt mid to late game. One more question:
Gave some thought to ghosts in tvt and I like the idea of using nukes to help jockey for key positions on the map, especially near xel'naga towers. Does anyone have experience with this play, especially on things like the kind of upgrades would help nuke play? Can I just skip cloak and energy upgrades and just make nukes instead (how important are they)? It's not like I'm going to keep my ghosts within range of opponent tank fire when nuking them. There are many ways to use nukes in TvT and I'm sure many are unexplored/not fully explored, but most generally they are used in split map scenarios to force unseiges. In this case, you necessarily should have half the map, and thus plenty of resources to get cloak, energy, and lots of nukes. Beatyqt is known for being nukehappy. If you want some solid and creative uses of nukes in all three matchups, check out his stream and I think he even posted a reppack recently.
I'm pretty frugal with my money, even in 200/200 scenarios. But more important than that is time; ghost upgrades take over 3 minutes to complete.
I'll check out Beatyqt's games.
Edit: is that how his name is spelled? I did a search on TL and couldn't find anything.
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On October 12 2011 03:02 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 01:17 alphafuzard wrote:On October 11 2011 16:20 halpimcat wrote:
Thanks for the advice on taking back xel'naga towers in the tvt mid to late game. One more question:
Gave some thought to ghosts in tvt and I like the idea of using nukes to help jockey for key positions on the map, especially near xel'naga towers. Does anyone have experience with this play, especially on things like the kind of upgrades would help nuke play? Can I just skip cloak and energy upgrades and just make nukes instead (how important are they)? It's not like I'm going to keep my ghosts within range of opponent tank fire when nuking them. There are many ways to use nukes in TvT and I'm sure many are unexplored/not fully explored, but most generally they are used in split map scenarios to force unseiges. In this case, you necessarily should have half the map, and thus plenty of resources to get cloak, energy, and lots of nukes. Beatyqt is known for being nukehappy. If you want some solid and creative uses of nukes in all three matchups, check out his stream and I think he even posted a reppack recently. I'm pretty frugal with my money, even in 200/200 scenarios. But more important than that is time; ghost upgrades take over 3 minutes to complete. I'll check out Beatyqt's games. Edit: is that how his name is spelled? I did a search on TL and couldn't find anything.
*Beastyqt
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I got an AMAZING tip for TvP if you're struggling with it. I'm a diamond terran and I played some practice games with a masters toss because I was having a lot of trouble with the matchup, and he gave me a really great tip. Use marines until they get something with splash to counter them. I was in the mindset of getting up 3-4 rax on two base with tech labs pumping out pure marauder. You don't want this at all until they get some kind of splash unit (colossus/high templar). Zealots will rip apart marauders because they don't have very good dps vs. them, so make mostly marines until you see them going for colossus or temps. I know this might have been common sense, but I got into some weird mindset of marauders being the best thing ever when really they're not that great when compared to marines. Hope this helps some of those in lower leagues 
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On October 10 2011 16:13 Zombo Joe wrote:
Is there a safe TvP expand build like the PvT 3 gate FE? I really don't like dying all the time to allins because I 1 raxed.
The worst is just dying to an Immortal bust even when I scout it.
If you go for 2 rax reactor first you can usually get to their base before they get enough units out to defend and you can contain them from there. Here's what I use:
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas - put 3 in
15 OC
15 Marine
16/17 Depot
When marine finishes make reactor
After OC finishes morphing build an SCV and save up for another rax and build it at 150 mins
When reactor finishes 2 marines -> constant marine production
When second rax finishes immediately go tech lab
After tech lab, you should have around 200 gas.
Research conc shells and start marauders
Once you get two marauders push out and start stim on your tech lab. You should have about 10 marines and two marauders around 6-7 minutes. While pushing you can expand and put up two additional rax and transition into a normal game.
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On October 12 2011 04:24 GotTheLife wrote:I got an AMAZING tip for TvP if you're struggling with it. I'm a diamond terran and I played some practice games with a masters toss because I was having a lot of trouble with the matchup, and he gave me a really great tip. Use marines until they get something with splash to counter them. I was in the mindset of getting up 3-4 rax on two base with tech labs pumping out pure marauder. You don't want this at all until they get some kind of splash unit (colossus/high templar). Zealots will rip apart marauders because they don't have very good dps vs. them, so make mostly marines until you see them going for colossus or temps. I know this might have been common sense, but I got into some weird mindset of marauders being the best thing ever when really they're not that great when compared to marines. Hope this helps some of those in lower leagues
I wouldn't go by this purely because you won't have the infrastructure to adequately transition out of pure marine when you see this happening. A standard good mixture is to go 3 rax 1 with reactor and 2 with techlab then your next 2 rax you choose if you want to get more marines (Zealot/Archon) or more marauders (Colossi/stalker). This way you can transition vs either style without being weak to the one.
Pure marauder in most cases is almost always bad, a more balanced marine and marauder mixture normally fares better and you just have to adjust your ratio depending on the composition of the P. As a Terran player you can't think of only what unit you want now but you have to think about how will you be able to get that unit. Infrastructure and transitioning is important.
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Thanks Blazinghand, I used to do the warden 111 but that was before the 111 allin meta game. He tells you to Thor allin which is silly if they 15 nexus or 1 gate FE on most medium-large maps. Even the marine tank banshee isn't very good at that, I believe doing a slayers style hellion drop like in TvZ is the best idea since you can force him to pull all his stalkers to defend his main while I do a runby with hellions. I've seen Kas and GoOdy do it a lot, with much success.
Whats the proper response against a +1 armor Immortal bust? People say its just making a ton of marines and bunkers but Immortals are amazing against bunkers and they 2 shot marines. Couple that with Guardian Shield and it seems like its night impossible to stop unless you rush for Ghosts and stay on rax tech or do some gimmicky mass banshee build.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 12 2011 02:50 Ksquared wrote:
How do you attack in TvT and how do you position your tanks to be the cover the most ground? This one TvT I played I controlled the center on Antigia Shipyard with hellion/tank/viking but he just went around it and went into my nat and main with a ton of bfh and killed me T_T
On antiga shipyard in particular, you either need to commit forces to the side of the xel naga range to watch out for run-bys like you just described, or get closer to the shared choke between his third, main and natural so that one tank clump can cover it. Oftentimes, just camping on a xel naga tower won't shut down all attack routes. Some players use more mobile groups like hellions, or statics that don't use food to shut down these attack paths during a contain. Another strategy to spot this sort of thing before it happens is to float spare rax, or use a sensor tower to cover your blind spots, and have units in position to intercept.
On October 12 2011 04:47 Zombo Joe wrote:
Thanks Blazinghand, I used to do the warden 111 but that was before the 111 allin meta game. He tells you to Thor allin which is silly if they 15 nexus or 1 gate FE on most medium-large maps. Even the marine tank banshee isn't very good at that, I believe doing a slayers style hellion drop like in TvZ is the best idea since you can force him to pull all his stalkers to defend his main while I do a runby with hellions. I've seen Kas and GoOdy do it a lot, with much success.
Whats the proper response against a +1 armor Immortal bust? People say its just making a ton of marines and bunkers but Immortals are amazing against bunkers and they 2 shot marines. Couple that with Guardian Shield and it seems like its night impossible to stop unless you rush for Ghosts and stay on rax tech or do some gimmicky mass banshee build.
Warden's guide was written when maps were smaller-- so the Thor all-in part probably isn't the best response to a fast expand, since Thors are on par with flying rax, overlords, and sieged-up tanks in terms of speed when rushing. It should still work on Searing Crater, Backwater Glutch non-cross, Xel'Naga Caverns, Abyssal caverns non-cross and Shattered Temple close spawns. The 1/1/1 is flexible and you can use harass to damage a fast expand, as you mentioned.
Is it on one base? Sounds like Hister's build, or some variant! I run into the ghost of Hister all the time on the ladder, and he haunts PvT like the spectre of communism haunts Marx's manifesto. It really depends on when you scout it and what your opening was, as well as what map you're on. I'm going to assume you're doing a 1 rax FE into mass bio play, since that's pretty standard.
An Immortal is better than the equal cost, 2 Stalkers, against Bunkers and Marauders, but is the same against Marines, and of course can't hit air units. On some maps like Shakuras Plateau in which your natural is well-protected with high ground and a choke, you'll be pretty well off with 3 bunkers. Maps like Xel'Naga Caverns, Searing Crater and Backwater Gulch have naturals that are hard to cover with bunkers, and in situations like that if you can't get enough bunkers up you actually want to bunker the high-ground and fly inwards when he pushes out (since he'll be on 1 base). This is exceptionally true on Searing Crater.
That being said, really what you want to do is make your bunkers as late as possible while still getting them up. Making 3 bunkers earlier rather than later is cutting 2 barracks, which adds up to a huge amount of production. The later you make your bunkers, the more infrastructure and army you'll have. If you know he's 1-basing you, don't feel obligated to keep on producing scvs-- you only need about 30 to completely out-earn a 1-basing protoss, since you have double mule. Slightly overmaynard to the natural so more scvs are standing by to repair. If you take a 2nd gas, take it in your natural rather than your main so there are more workers standing by for repairs.
The Black Horse map here is Tal'Darim altar, on which you benefit from neither a ramp at your natural nor a ramp at your high ground, and you have a lot of other trickiness to worry about (blink, void rays) that happens PvT on one base on that map. I'm not entirely sure how to hold the push on Tal'Darim, but the answer definitely lies in defending your natural rather than flying into your main.
The other thing you can do is to make 2 quick ghosts and go for a 2 ghost push off of 2 bases. A ghost academy is relatively cheap, and you can make a ghost or two without the reactor upgrade and still have EMP energy in time. You can't afford to whiff the EMPs in that case. This relies on you scouting it pretty far an advance though-- and him not switching to a 1-base colossus build if he realizes you're going ghost. You can hide your ghosts in bunkers to avoid getting scouted by an observer (assuming he didn't see your ghost academy).
Quick ghosts shuts it down pretty hard.
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On October 12 2011 04:36 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:24 GotTheLife wrote:I got an AMAZING tip for TvP if you're struggling with it. I'm a diamond terran and I played some practice games with a masters toss because I was having a lot of trouble with the matchup, and he gave me a really great tip. Use marines until they get something with splash to counter them. I was in the mindset of getting up 3-4 rax on two base with tech labs pumping out pure marauder. You don't want this at all until they get some kind of splash unit (colossus/high templar). Zealots will rip apart marauders because they don't have very good dps vs. them, so make mostly marines until you see them going for colossus or temps. I know this might have been common sense, but I got into some weird mindset of marauders being the best thing ever when really they're not that great when compared to marines. Hope this helps some of those in lower leagues I wouldn't go by this purely because you won't have the infrastructure to adequately transition out of pure marine when you see this happening. A standard good mixture is to go 3 rax 1 with reactor and 2 with techlab then your next 2 rax you choose if you want to get more marines (Zealot/Archon) or more marauders (Colossi/stalker). This way you can transition vs either style without being weak to the one. Pure marauder in most cases is almost always bad, a more balanced marine and marauder mixture normally fares better and you just have to adjust your ratio depending on the composition of the P. As a Terran player you can't think of only what unit you want now but you have to think about how will you be able to get that unit. Infrastructure and transitioning is important.
Yeah I know what you mean xD I usually try to get 4 rax on 2 base, 1 with reactor 2 with tech lab and one plain, then if I scout them going colossus I switch into marauder mode and get a 3rd tech lab and extra gases up.
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hi guys, I am actually a zerg but I have a question.
What are some of the biggest drawback of not doing early hellions in TvZ?
It appears to me that other than not able to do an early marine tank push, that's about it
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What exactly is the point of the 2 hellions in reactor hellion expand? I have been following the build pretty mindlessly and wonder if they are only for clearing towers.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 12 2011 14:23 ETisME wrote:
hi guys, I am actually a zerg but I have a question.
What are some of the biggest drawback of not doing early hellions in TvZ?
It appears to me that other than not able to do an early marine tank push, that's about it
EDIT: I assumed you meant "what are some of the biggest drawback of doing early hellions in TvZ", given that you've listed one as lack of tank production (presumably because the factory is occupied making hellions). If you meant it the way you wrote it, just invert all these sentences I guess.
Early hellions are excellent in TvZ; but there are drawbacks. Hellions lack the DPS against banelings and roaches, buildings, queens (and overlords, obviously) that marines have, despite their superior mobility, and dumping minerals into hellions reduces your overall marine count, giving you less anti-air later on. Also, getting a fast factory delays your expo relative to going for a 1 rax fast expand. Hellions also use up factory time and usually require a reactor (which takes 50 seconds of production time to make) for full effectiveness. Lastly, Reactor Hellion attacks hit later than 2 Rax pressure attacks, even slow ones like 12/14, giving zerg ample opportunity to scout and react.
On October 12 2011 16:31 positron. wrote:
What exactly is the point of the 2 hellions in reactor hellion expand? I have been following the build pretty mindlessly and wonder if they are only for clearing towers.
They clear towers, deny creep tumors, and punish a zerg without units. If you detect a late gas / speed, lack of spinecrawlers, etc, there's always the option to make more of them. In general, though, you can make however many hellions you like, and pressure the zerg into making fewer drones.
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On October 12 2011 14:23 ETisME wrote:What are some of the biggest drawback of not doing early hellions in TvZ?
I don't know how right I am (Dia level), but I find defending vs. Bane busts (be it 1base or eco) kinda hard without Hellions (or making a bajillion bunkers, which is obviously not ideal, as Hellions can do the same job + they stay useful for the whole game)
The biggest drawback of DOING early Reactor Hellion, I would say, is vulnerability to any early Roach busts.
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I have some trouble planing a midgame TvZ on Taldarim Altar cross position. Attacking straight up feel very weak as the distance is so huge, Drops have a long path to go too, and they can defend 3bases pretty easy while massing Mutalisk.
Most of the time i try to expand a lot and going into lategame, but TvZ lategame is pretty hard right now.
Any tips on TvZ cross pos on big maps ?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 12 2011 18:04 Noocta wrote:
I have some trouble planing a midgame TvZ on Taldarim Altar cross position. Attacking straight up feel very weak as the distance is so huge, Drops have a long path to go too, and they can defend 3bases pretty easy while massing Mutalisk.
Most of the time i try to expand a lot and going into lategame, but TvZ lategame is pretty hard right now.
Any tips on TvZ cross pos on big maps ?
Off hand, I'd point you towards this recent Day[9] Daily, #357:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-357-p1-idra-vs-puma-game-2-5621885
Basically, rather than just attacking with drops, use drops to control the position of the mutalisk flock so you can move your army across the map safely. Use the location of your army to protect your 4th base (along the push) and prevent easy mutalisk counterattacks. Since zerg needs to use a lair tech unit to stop marine drops (to hit air), you can control the location of the important parts of his army.
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EPT
