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Hi fellow terrans,
I'm a mid-high master player on the korean ladder having trouble against muta/ling/bling in TvZ, especially on Cloud Kingdom. I can't seem to move out of my 3 bases without getting crushed. I've tried dropping to draw the zerg back but mutas and good overlord spread don't make this a viable option (i'm also scared to drop in case I don't have enough units to hold a huge ling bling muta bust). I've also tried sitting till 3/3 and max but zerg would have creep across the map, below my 4th. The resulting trade when I move out ends up cost efficient for me if I control well but his larger bank would allow him to remax faster and I would not be able to pressure him further, allowing him to get his hive units up easily (and the game slides downhill from there).
I've uploaded 2 replays against zergs going muta/ling/bling, both played today:
http://drop.sc/281855
http://drop.sc/281856
On the other hand, I find it much easier to play against infestors despite all the QQ about them as I'm not as confined to my 3 bases and can hit a 2/2 push before his hive tech kicks in to at least deny his 4th.
I go for a 1 rax double expand, with the 3rd CC in the main base into hellion banshee and then standard bio/tank play. I go mostly bio with 3-4 tanks until the 13/14 min mark when I add my factories and 3rd base. (I adapted this build from Taeja/Demuslim) Wondering if my relatively low tank count is a problem here against muta ling bling.
Thanks!
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Are there any good builds for putting pressure on a Protoss who fast expands and uses a lot of sentries for defense?
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On December 05 2012 21:52 Poltergeist- wrote:
Are there any good builds for putting pressure on a Protoss who fast expands and uses a lot of sentries for defense?
I've been doing a marauder/conc shells expand recently which has been earning a nexus cancel/kill against protoss who use their 1 gate for sentry production. Otherwise I'm finding it a bit tricky to get much done though.
A marine/hellion/medivac drop sounds like it might work pretty well too.
All this comes with the caveat that I'm only plat so I might be spouting shit without realising it.
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1 rax fe into 5 rax marine check is what I do recently again. Cut the 2nd depot and drop rax 2-5 at same time, then depot + OC at natural. Two marines then bunker then third marine. Leave at like 6:45 and hit by 7:15 with ~15 marines. If they play greedy and a wider ramp theres your pressure. If I do damage I drop a third then 3 gas. If I dont I get three gas and just churn marines out + get a fac and addons.
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On December 05 2012 05:56 saaaa wrote:
After watching the IPL 5 i recognize that there are exist 3 different types of 1st CC builds and how to execute them.
1) create a Wall with CC and Rax at the highground
2) build CC at the lowground minerals and throw down the bunker before the factory
3) build CC at the lowground minerals and throw down the bunker after the factory
Whats in your opinion the best way to execute it?
1. Safest.
2. Standard.
3. You can delay the Bunker if you scout third before Pool or Zerg doesn't make more than 4 Zerglings.
There is no “best way” per se, it depends whether your opponent (a) Drone scouts or not, (b) is likely to go 10 Pool or not and (c) goes 6+ Zergling pressure or not. It also depends on you: are you willing to take some risks or not?
On December 05 2012 19:41 netherDrake wrote:Hi fellow terrans, I'm a mid-high master player on the korean ladder having trouble against muta/ling/bling in TvZ, especially on Cloud Kingdom. I can't seem to move out of my 3 bases without getting crushed. I've tried dropping to draw the zerg back but mutas and good overlord spread don't make this a viable option (i'm also scared to drop in case I don't have enough units to hold a huge ling bling muta bust). I've also tried sitting till 3/3 and max but zerg would have creep across the map, below my 4th. The resulting trade when I move out ends up cost efficient for me if I control well but his larger bank would allow him to remax faster and I would not be able to pressure him further, allowing him to get his hive units up easily (and the game slides downhill from there). I've uploaded 2 replays against zergs going muta/ling/bling, both played today: http://drop.sc/281855http://drop.sc/281856On the other hand, I find it much easier to play against infestors despite all the QQ about them as I'm not as confined to my 3 bases and can hit a 2/2 push before his hive tech kicks in to at least deny his 4th. I go for a 1 rax double expand, with the 3rd CC in the main base into hellion banshee and then standard bio/tank play. I go mostly bio with 3-4 tanks until the 13/14 min mark when I add my factories and 3rd base. (I adapted this build from Taeja/Demuslim) Wondering if my relatively low tank count is a problem here against muta ling bling.
Yes. Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks armies have no problem winning against low Tank counts, even offcreep. In the CK game you need to add a second Factory way earlier, say between the 9' and the 10' mark. Marauders are OK against Infestors but not that useful against Mutalisk play, you should skip them. Consider getting a Sensor Tower somewhere between your natural and your third. Once you reach 8+ Tanks things look better against mass Banelings.
In the Daybreak game you would have been OK with a slightly earlier second Factory and better Tank production out of your first Factory. Be careful not to overproduce Medivacs against Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks; if you make too many of them and not enough Tanks, Banelings wipe out your Marines and there is nothing left to heal. (Saying this because at some point you had 13 Medivacs but a low Tank count.)
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--moving to pro-terran q&a thread for more exposure--
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I have a really quick question with hopefully a really quick response.
My issue is my control of large sized bio clumps towards the end of TvP. I know I'm supposed to be setting my bio up in an arc for engagements but are there any tips for mid-battle micro for arcing my units? Most streams appear to just box the back half, send left, box the back right half and send right. Not sure if I'm missing something else.
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On December 06 2012 01:49 Fission wrote:
What's the game plan goal behind a Flash-style 1 rax FE -> 3rax (2 reactor, 1 tech) against P?
The opening hits the P base at 10:20-10:25 with a large number of marines, 1-2 rauders, 2 medivacs, +1, and combat shields, and Flash will often take his 3rd before adding additional rax. The part I don't understand is what you're trying to do in the long term with this build, because here's what I'm finding:
Arrive at 10:00 with my units, break down any rocks (if applicable), wait until CS finishes & medivacs arrive, and poke in, with results falling into a couple categories:
a) Protoss has done some kind of 3 gate robo opening with 1-2 forges, low unit count, but 1st collosus is out at ~9:30, so by the time I press @ 10:30 ish there is only about 10-15 seconds before the second collosus comes out, and they will also often have a 1 upgrade advantage - so no damage is really done, maybe I trade a few marines for a sentry. At this point I just try to delay their 3rd as long as possible while saturating mine.
b) Protoss has done a fast forge -> templar opening. Storm finishes around 10:30, completely deflects my attack because it's marine heavy. Again, I try to deny their 3rd to prevent them from taking a 5th/6th gas and ramping up templar production as long as possible, will throw down a ghost academy asap.
c) Protoss did something ridiculous like 2 forge, fast templar, robo bay, 4 expos, and just dies to 1a and the game ends.
Now, my problem is that in scenarios a) and b), even though I usually get my 3rd up 4-5 minutes before the P, one of two things happens: either they take their third and turtle up forever till 3/3 and mass collo/templar, in which case I almost always lose, or they take their 3rd and counter with the units off 2 bases and kill me because they have either an upgrade advantage, a tech advantage, or both.
So my +1 finishes @10:20 with this build, +1 armor finishes @ 13:00, and then earliest it's possible to have 2/2 is just after 16 mins. But for the P, they can often have 2/2 by 14 mins or even earlier if they went something like 1 gate double forge into robo and I don't kill them - they might even be on 3/3 before I'm on 2/2. So I don't have a really clean 200/200 2/2 push that can hit them before they get templar+storm up (if they open robo) or collosus (if they open templar). Once the game goes into 3-4 base mode I almost never win, and I rarely see professional T players win this way either - they usually win before that. So what gives?
For reference, I was masters KR T last season, and am getting back into playing again.
If you want to have an upgrade advantage and hit a timing in TvP, you can go for +2/+1 instead of +1 armor first. I´m not sure how your resources will be affected by that(i guess you have to take a faster 4th gas or cut a round of units in order to do it), but i did it a couple of times against diamond and master players with good success and mostly against forge expand or nexus first builds. You can even only go for +2 and do +1 armor later. The most important upgrade in battle is the attack upgrade and if you can get an advantage in that category the battles may shift into your favor more often.
Against a 3 base turtle player you can get your 4th really fast and get a huge amount of barracks like 12 or more and 2 or 3 starports. Then you can basically slowly cripple him to pieces if you get good or ok engagements and your macro is on top. However that´s really hard and i´m often just loose a ton of units to storm and colossi splash or forget to macro, because the splitting requires so much attention.
Maybe after the patch the raven is a good adition. Don´t know how well a hsm could deal with zealots.
Hope the tips helped a bit.
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Hi everyone.
The last couple of days Ive met alot of zergs that puts on early pressure with alot of lings early game (I go 1rax Fe, dbl gas, fac). This is irritating, because I dont have any wall up at my nat in time, and the zerg delay my mining quite a bit. So to my question. Have anyone here gone 12 rax, 13 gas, and then expo? so you get your hellions out a bit faster and so on, if yes, is it ok build to use ?
dia player
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On December 06 2012 05:48 zeh_ripper wrote:
Hi everyone.
The last couple of days Ive met alot of zergs that puts on early pressure with alot of lings early game (I go 1rax Fe, dbl gas, fac). This is irritating, because I dont have any wall up at my nat in time, and the zerg delay my mining quite a bit. So to my question. Have anyone here gone 12 rax, 13 gas, and then expo? so you get your hellions out a bit faster and so on, if yes, is it ok build to use ?
dia player
No. If you want 4 marines instead of 2, then what you can do is go 1 rax fe, 1 gas then instead of getting a factory straight away, get a reactor on the rax, make 2 more marines, then swap the rax with factory and away you go.
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On December 06 2012 06:05 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 05:48 zeh_ripper wrote:
Hi everyone.
The last couple of days Ive met alot of zergs that puts on early pressure with alot of lings early game (I go 1rax Fe, dbl gas, fac). This is irritating, because I dont have any wall up at my nat in time, and the zerg delay my mining quite a bit. So to my question. Have anyone here gone 12 rax, 13 gas, and then expo? so you get your hellions out a bit faster and so on, if yes, is it ok build to use ?
dia player No. If you want 4 marines instead of 2, then what you can do is go 1 rax fe, 1 gas then instead of getting a factory straight away, get a reactor on the rax, make 2 more marines, then swap the rax with factory and away you go.
You can get 4 marines doing 1 rax fe -> 2 gas -> reactor hellion -> (cloak) banshee.
4 marines is also timed just as bunker at your natural is finished, so unless he goes for >6 lings, it's quite safe.
You just need to micro a bit. Building your 3rd / 4th supply depot to wall off your natural also helps 
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On December 06 2012 01:49 Fission wrote:
So my +1 finishes @10:20 with this build, +1 armor finishes @ 13:00, and then earliest it's possible to have 2/2 is just after 16 mins.
What prevents you from making a second EB and an Armory after you start your third / once +1 attack completes? The window in which Protoss has the avantage upgrade over you needs to be as short as possible, don't expect to win fights against 3-0-3 Zealots unless you have a massive supply advantage.
On December 06 2012 03:56 Sianos wrote:
Maybe after the patch the raven is a good adition.
No, it's still as awful as before. Why would you make Ravens with bio play when Feedback outranges and instantly destroys any Raven with 140+ energy? Not to mention you need Starport production for Vikings/Medivacs and you don't have spare gas anyway.
On December 06 2012 05:48 zeh_ripper wrote:
Hi everyone.
The last couple of days Ive met alot of zergs that puts on early pressure with alot of lings early game (I go 1rax Fe, dbl gas, fac). This is irritating, because I dont have any wall up at my nat in time, and the zerg delay my mining quite a bit. So to my question. Have anyone here gone 12 rax, 13 gas, and then expo? so you get your hellions out a bit faster and so on, if yes, is it ok build to use ?
dia player
No need to do that, just make a Bunker after second Supply Depot (CC-Gas-Gas-Depot-Bunker) and you shall be fine against Zerglings poke with your 3 Marines in the Bunker, which starts around 4'15 and is ready when Zerglings arrive.
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Hi in TvT when it gets to super late game and i have a maxed out air army, how do i control my bcs,viking, and ravens?
Do i focus more on seeker missiles or using the yamato cannon? Also how many ravens and bcs should i get or does it depend on the situation.Thank you.
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Hi, glad to see there are such threads helping people 
If I scout a protoss that has high nexus energy, gateway, core and a single gas, are these all the possible follow ups? (so far I've encountered these 5:
a) Standard expand
b) 4 gate
c) 4 gate prism
d) 3/4 gate zealot void ray
e) Proxied early 2nd gateway
Some questions regarding scouting and responses, I'm not too knowledgeable about protoss builds so I need some help here:
1) Is it safe to say that if I only see one pylon in his main after going an entire round, it is most likely going to be a proxy? (situations c, d, e)
2) If I see a third pylon go up (assuming he does not cancel), can I rule out the possibility of any one base play and know it's an expand build?
3) What should I do with my scouting SCV after 4:10, which is when the stalker pops up to deny scouting?
4) What are the optimal reponses to c), d) and e)? I've lost alot to c) and d) because I always guess that it's a standard 4 gate going to bust my ramp but in fact it is not.
Thanks.
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Canada8157 Posts
On December 07 2012 00:38 FireFlyInTheSky wrote:Hi, glad to see there are such threads helping people If I scout a protoss that has high nexus energy, gateway, core and a single gas, are these all the possible follow ups? (so far I've encountered these 5: a) Standard expand b) 4 gate c) 4 gate prism d) 3/4 gate zealot void ray e) Proxied early 2nd gateway Some questions regarding scouting and responses, I'm not too knowledgeable about protoss builds so I need some help here: 1) Is it safe to say that if I only see one pylon in his main after going an entire round, it is most likely going to be a proxy? (situations c, d, e) 2) If I see a third pylon go up (assuming he does not cancel), can I rule out the possibility of any one base play and know it's an expand build? 3) What should I do with my scouting SCV after 4:10, which is when the stalker pops up to deny scouting? 4) What are the optimal reponses to c), d) and e)? I've lost alot to c) and d) because I always guess that it's a standard 4 gate going to bust my ramp but in fact it is not. Thanks.
1) Yes, either that or he is saving up for an expansion.
2) Not quite, it could be a delayed push, so you will have to confirm with another scout of the natural/his main base.
3) Normally you would want to send in another scout before the 5:10 minute mark and get it to at least the natural, so that if you do see an expansion you don't have to immediately throw up a bunker, and if there is no expansion you can assume a 4 gate or at least some early pressure and throw up bunkers in time before it hits. If you can get the scout in his main base without it dying to the stalker that's just gravy on the fries.
4)
c. Supply depots at the extremities of your base for that extra bit of vision, with 2 bunkers protecting your natural. Don't be afraid to pull scvs to kill off the warp prism units, you will be ahead on eco anyways. If he warps in from the warp prism, unload your units from your bunkers and use them to help kill off the warp prism aggression, if you do not see a warp in from the warp prism, keep your units in your bunkers at the natural and assume that there will be gateway units walking up your ramp. Pull 5-6 scvs for auto repair on the bunkers.
d. Scouting that 2nd gas is extremely important to know if its a 3 gate stargate build. If you do not know for sure what he is doing you should scan the main base for gasses and potentially any buildings in there. Also send either a marine or an scv and scout normal proxy locations for anything that could be there. As for the actual hold, don't be afraid to drop an extra bunker or 2, and try to position your scvs as best you can around your bunkers for the repair. You will probably have to focus fire down the void rays as well with marines.
e. I always wall off in every matchup, so unless it's in your base you should have to problem expanding in your base anyways.
On a side note, what i don't see any terran player do at all is build a barracks for scouting. The cost is 150 minerals compared to the potential 300 mineral income from a mule, and you can scout much more then a scan would. What i recommend is building a barracks around the 4:00 minute mark somewhere close to the enemy base but where they wont scout (say the 4th base on cloud kingdom), and then when its done just float it in their base and scout around. It probably wont die to 2 stalkers and you will see absolutely everything in their base + natural base.
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On December 07 2012 11:04 Jer99 wrote:
On a side note, what i don't see any terran player do at all is build a barracks for scouting. The cost is 150 minerals compared to the potential 300 mineral income from a mule, and you can scout much more then a scan would. What i recommend is building a barracks around the 4:00 minute mark somewhere close to the enemy base but where they wont scout (say the 4th base on cloud kingdom), and then when its done just float it in their base and scout around. It probably wont die to 2 stalkers and you will see absolutely everything in their base + natural base.
Actually, the cost is higher since that scv isn't mining, and if you proxy it, you might get caught and lose the rax+mining time for nothing. Generally as terran you don't need to scan in the early game anyways.
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Canada8157 Posts
On December 07 2012 11:36 Abstinence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 11:04 Jer99 wrote:
On a side note, what i don't see any terran player do at all is build a barracks for scouting. The cost is 150 minerals compared to the potential 300 mineral income from a mule, and you can scout much more then a scan would. What i recommend is building a barracks around the 4:00 minute mark somewhere close to the enemy base but where they wont scout (say the 4th base on cloud kingdom), and then when its done just float it in their base and scout around. It probably wont die to 2 stalkers and you will see absolutely everything in their base + natural base. Actually, the cost is higher since that scv isn't mining, and if you proxy it, you might get caught and lose the rax+mining time for nothing. Generally as terran you don't need to scan in the early game anyways.
Regardless I still do believe that the potential scouting information from a barracks as opposed to a very limited area from a scan would be worth the extra loss mining time. And it's not only for the early game, this can also be used in the mid-game to scout infrastructure
Here are some build locations on some of the maps in the 1v1 map pool.
Cloud kingdom: http://i.imgur.com/E8r6A
Daybreak: http://i.imgur.com/0F0HZ
Ohana: http://imgur.com/bp5Yv
A side benefit to this aswell is it could move some units out of position for the enemy, allowing for an attack on the expansion or elsewhere.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On December 07 2012 11:59 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 11:36 Abstinence wrote:On December 07 2012 11:04 Jer99 wrote:
On a side note, what i don't see any terran player do at all is build a barracks for scouting. The cost is 150 minerals compared to the potential 300 mineral income from a mule, and you can scout much more then a scan would. What i recommend is building a barracks around the 4:00 minute mark somewhere close to the enemy base but where they wont scout (say the 4th base on cloud kingdom), and then when its done just float it in their base and scout around. It probably wont die to 2 stalkers and you will see absolutely everything in their base + natural base. Actually, the cost is higher since that scv isn't mining, and if you proxy it, you might get caught and lose the rax+mining time for nothing. Generally as terran you don't need to scan in the early game anyways. Regardless I still do believe that the potential scouting information from a barracks as opposed to a very limited area from a scan would be worth the extra loss mining time. And it's not only for the early game, this can also be used in the mid-game to scout infrastructure Here are some build locations on some of the maps in the 1v1 map pool. Cloud kingdom: http://i.imgur.com/E8r6ADaybreak: http://i.imgur.com/0F0HZOhana: http://imgur.com/bp5YvA side benefit to this aswell is it could move some units out of position for the enemy, allowing for an attack on the expansion or elsewhere.
Scout Rax is actually a fine idea, it's just that typically as Terran you don't get surprised by stuff anyways. I rarely use scans anyways except in certain situations early game (such as I think a 1-base all-in is coming but I don't know what type, and I need to know right away for whatever reason).
I go mech a fair amount, and whenever I do I use a scout rax-- it's hilarious against Zerg and reasonably effective against Terran if for whatever reason you're going mech but don't have air units. But in this case, I'm not building an extra rax, I'm just flying over my first rax once it's done building marines. Most of the time you can fly it in, see what's up, and fly it out without losing it, and if you do lose it-- well, it was only 150 minerals to rebuild anyways.
Part of the issue with Scout Rax though is that many early game terran builds rely on constant marine production and don't have room for a scan or a proxied rax without slowing down infrastructure, cutting a bunker, or cutting marines. A lot of time all a scout rax will tell you in the early game is "you need an extra bunker" when instead of spending 150 minerals on a scout rax you could have just blindly made a bunker and been ahead. By the late game, either it's hard to proxy due to creep spread or whatever, or you have other ways of scouting (drops, hellions, whatever) that are more effective.
The biggest reason though, is that a Scout Rax has a 65 second build time, which means you need to start building it probably... 90-100 seconds before you get info. Most of the time when a Terran scans it's like "oh, suddenly something has come up and I need scouting NOW" like if you sneak an scv into his nat and there's no expo and an all-in could be coming in 30 seconds, and you totally misread the build. Scout Rax is "my build relies on this to scout at a specific time" and can't really be done as a reaction. There is a time and a place for a Scout Rax, but it's not quick on its feet and even if it's cheaper than a scan and gives you more information, it's slow and most people don't scan anyways.
A good thing to keep in the back pocket, and to do when meching.
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On December 07 2012 11:04 Jer99 wrote:
c. Supply depots at the extremities of your base for that extra bit of vision, with 2 bunkers protecting your natural. Don't be afraid to pull scvs to kill off the warp prism units
Pulling SCVs against Warp Prism 4g is a do or die, not a “don't be afraid” thing. It's an absolute imperative, you'd better pull 20+ SCVs if you want to survive [assuming 1 rax FE → 3 rax].
On December 07 2012 11:04 Jer99 wrote:
d. Scouting that 2nd gas is extremely important to know if its a 3 gate stargate build.
He's talking about the 1 gas variant which gets one VR and only Zealots.
On December 07 2012 11:04 Jer99 wrote:
On a side note, what i don't see any terran player do at all is build a barracks for scouting.
And for good reasons, it just kills your build order—not to mention that if you scout standard play, you just managed to end up behind for nothing.
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What is current TvZ Standard macro that doesn't rely on banshees harass
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EPT
