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On October 12 2012 12:09 Billymtb wrote: i hope ver doesnt mind me putting in my input and answering questions, im a gm lvl terran.
On October 12 2012 10:45 awwnuts07 wrote: Gold level Terran here with a question. Lately, in TvT, I've been wanting to go into 1-1-1 after 1 rax FE but I'm unsure of when to start my add-ons for rax. Do I start them as soon as the Rax are done building?
Alot of builds change dependinging on scouting information and how much pressure the player is under, as a general rule of thumb, throw down double gas after cc, and after 3 marines get a reactor whilst completing the 1-1-1, how ever you wont be able to support tank production and cloak banshee and building reactors off of two gas in that early timing so thats where decisions are made.
as soon as you have enough money whilst continually producing tanks, throw down more raxes, with the 2nd rax having a tech lab and thats when you start your fundamental upgrades.
The reason you dont get tech lab first is that you need that early marine production (2 at a time) too hold off any early pressure.
Hello, I can't win a single TvZ nowadays (playing Hellion/Banshee). In every single game my opponent actually blind counters cloaked banshees, like there's always spores up when I arrive and in fact most of the time they just go for quick mutas. Can anyone suggest me another build, perhaps some kind of hellion opening with a bunch of barracks? Or I'd be happy with an all-in build as well. Actually, even a build that opens 1rax FE into hellions but foregoes the banshees completely sounds pretty good considering the zerg is going to build the spores anyway.
Note: I'm aware that hellion/banshee is still potent even if the zerg reads it like a book, it's just that when they do that it basically forces a super long macro game (I won't have a single timing in the next 15 minutes) which I honestly can't be arsed with in the current metagame.
Try looking for the thorzain 2-1-1 marine hellion double medic opening that hits at 8:30 with four hellions eight marines and stim with two medics. Its an FE build that the cc drops at 17 supply. I can post a few reps and a skeleton bo when i get home
On October 13 2012 01:39 duckmaster wrote: Hello, I can't win a single TvZ nowadays (playing Hellion/Banshee). In every single game my opponent actually blind counters cloaked banshees, like there's always spores up when I arrive and in fact most of the time they just go for quick mutas. Can anyone suggest me another build, perhaps some kind of hellion opening with a bunch of barracks? Or I'd be happy with an all-in build as well. Actually, even a build that opens 1rax FE into hellions but foregoes the banshees completely sounds pretty good considering the zerg is going to build the spores anyway.
Note: I'm aware that hellion/banshee is still potent even if the zerg reads it like a book, it's just that when they do that it basically forces a super long macro game (I won't have a single timing in the next 15 minutes) which I honestly can't be arsed with in the current metagame.
How much hellion, banshee do you build? If you only build the standard 6 hellions and 1 banshee without cloak and he´s investing in spores and overseers, that´s great for you. The big follow up of going hellion, banshee in the early game is to make a devastating push to kill the 4th base ~14 minutes before t3 from zerg is out with 2-2 for bio and +1 for tanks, while taking the own 4th base. If you invest more into hellion and banshees with cloak your timing window will be delayed and depending on the damage you could do, will be useless. So if you can´t do the multitasking, which is needed to do the hellion banshee harassment build, just do the standard with only 1 banshee and do the timing push before t3 tech and you´ll be in a great position for the macro game.
@duckmaster If you are set on an FE into reactor hellions I would like into that old Slayers build from a while back. I remember that they kicked the crap out of every Zerg in that MLG. It's not as effective as it was because of the queen buff (you don't want to run into their mineral line so much anymore) but it is still good. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Blue_Flame_Hellion_Drop_Timing
What I have the most trouble against nowadays in my ZvT is when the Terran player just goes for MMM or MMT with double engi and greedy cc's. It's very difficult to break a turtling Terran who has marauders because they destroy roaches and absorb banelings. It's not too hard to scout a Zerg all-in if you just scan at the right time and keep an eye on their third timing so you just sit back and macro up and trust in 3/3 bio.
I feel like all you have to do is make sure to scan to check the following: lair timing, choice of lair tech, hive timing, choice of hive tech. If you are playing MMM then you are perfectly safe against ultras already. As long as you don't get completely caught off guard by broodlords you should have plenty of vikings.
Mech can also be hard to stop as long as you know when to make more thors and when to make more tanks!
Sorry I can't offer you a specific opening build here as I play Zerg.
How do I deal with stalker drops or early blink stalker when going 1 rax expand into 3rax starport? I dont see any possible way to hold the stalkers off if they dont attack into my bunkers
It's not too hard to scout a Zerg all-in if you just scan at the right time and keep an eye on their third timing so you just sit back and macro up and trust in 3/3 bio.
On October 13 2012 01:39 duckmaster wrote: Hello, I can't win a single TvZ nowadays (playing Hellion/Banshee). In every single game my opponent actually blind counters cloaked banshees, like there's always spores up when I arrive and in fact most of the time they just go for quick mutas. Can anyone suggest me another build, perhaps some kind of hellion opening with a bunch of barracks? Or I'd be happy with an all-in build as well. Actually, even a build that opens 1rax FE into hellions but foregoes the banshees completely sounds pretty good considering the zerg is going to build the spores anyway.
Note: I'm aware that hellion/banshee is still potent even if the zerg reads it like a book, it's just that when they do that it basically forces a super long macro game (I won't have a single timing in the next 15 minutes) which I honestly can't be arsed with in the current metagame.
TvZ 2-1-1 marine hellion medic rush 10 depot 12 rax 15 gas -> 2 on gas 15 OC 17 CC 18 Depot 19 Rax -> 3rd on gas -> tech lab when done 20 Fac (depot scv) 21 gas 21 Reactor
Swap factory onto rax reactor, land rax make new reactor 27 2 hellion + stim 29 Depot 30 starport (lift fac make starport) ->> 7:45 2 medics pop 34 depot ~8:30 Double ebay when move out ~9 min 3rd cc -> 2 gas 3 rax
Gets a very fast 3/3, usually by 17-19 minutes if you stay on it. Flows into 5-2-1 rax/fac/sport on 2 base, 3 OC very well. Once you get third down, drop a few more barracks, and enjoy.
It's not too hard to scout a Zerg all-in if you just scan at the right time and keep an eye on their third timing so you just sit back and macro up and trust in 3/3 bio.
when would you say its the right time?
Only burn a scan if you cannot confirm a third base by like 7-8 minutes, and then you will still probably have a chance to waste a scan if they hide tech at their natural instead. A lot of all ins have lings clear the map of all scouting anything, and possibly even fake a third if you have an scv there to scout, then go all in.
On October 13 2012 05:40 heyra wrote: How do I deal with stalker drops or early blink stalker when going 1 rax expand into 3rax starport? I dont see any possible way to hold the stalkers off if they dont attack into my bunkers
I asume you are talking about 1 base plays, since 2 base stalker plays should be easily handled with you bio and stim. Handling blink stalker allins or warpprism allins is actually pretty easy. The first thing you have to do is to look for 2 gas before nexus with your scouting scv. This is a big indicator, which makes those techplays, where he can go arround your bunker possible. The next thing to look for is a nexus between 6 and 6:30. Use your scouting scv after hiding it at their 3rd or 4th base or a scan to make 100% sure you get this information. If there isn´t a nexus up by that time, your opponent is doing a heavy tech play and he will 100% attack you. Your reaction to it is to just give up your natrual. Lift your OC, salvage your bunkers and camp in your main base. Build 2 bunker on top of your ramp and stop muling, since you´ll have arround 30 scvs on your main base already. Instead safe your energy in case of dts and use it for supply calldowns. You´ll be surprised how easy it is to hold tech allins, when you are in your main base. From here you want to wait for stim and medivacs, since if you can get them, you have won the game. Even if he decides to expand after seeing you retreat and just ff your ramp, you are way ahead of your opponent once your medivacs are out and stim is ready. Just do it like this everytime you scout 2 gas and no nexus between 6 and 6:30 and you´ll win aggainst a lot of allins (dts, void rays, blink stalker, immortal) easily.
If he is expanding by that time, the only things your opponent can do are (dt expand, phönix expand, warpprism harras expand, expand into 3 gate sentry push, expand and teching defensive and other gateway timings). Everytime i see a 2 gas expand i build a blind turret in each mineral line in case of dts or phönix play and i have at least 2 bunkers up in case of sentry pushes. Scouting those gateway allins can be a little tricky and you need at least 3 bunkers to hold them of, but you can build a fast marrauder after stim for mapcontrol and with this you should be able to see sentries on the map or a probe escort, which is tell enough to build that 3rd bunker soon.
On October 13 2012 05:40 iET wrote:
when would you say its the right time?
What you want to do is to check for the 3rd base between 6:00 and 6:30. If he doesn´t have a 3rd by that time he is either teching or he is going to allin you. Now you should scan his main to see whether he is going for lair. If he does, there will be no allin, if not there is a good chance that he will go for an allin, but he could also have the lair at their natrual. However you will not get behind if you build additonal bunkers and prepare for evacuating your natrual in time of the allin in this scenario. You should be able to see the fastest allin arround 6:15 with your first 2 hellions. Any abnormal ling count (more than 8!) or roaches moving accross the map, should be tell enough. The later versionsyou can scout with the method i described above.
Guys silver league terran here, just started playing. my biggest problem i have noticed is when im scouting i have no idea what I am looking for. When ever i see gas i don't think anything of it, i feel like i am blind when i don't know what the opponent is doing/going for and they always seem to counter what i have.
What can i do to know what the opponent is doing when i scout? what do i look for?
Look at some build orders, see what kind of builds focus around getting an early gas or two, at Silver I wouldn't be bothered about using scans to get a better idea of what he's got. As there is a lot more to it than just how many gas your opponent goes for.
Check what structures he has, scout around the map with a worker or single marine for proxy's.
Also use harassment as a good idea to see what tech route he is going down.
On October 13 2012 18:22 mokumoku wrote: Guys silver league terran here, just started playing. my biggest problem i have noticed is when im scouting i have no idea what I am looking for. When ever i see gas i don't think anything of it, i feel like i am blind when i don't know what the opponent is doing/going for and they always seem to counter what i have.
What can i do to know what the opponent is doing when i scout? what do i look for?
Well scouting really depends on the matchup. While scouting you want to look for things your opponent can´t be doing or can be doing. For example if you play a TvP and see a nexus first, your opponent can´t do the 4 gate allin build, since for the allin he needs early gas to research warpgate. If you are playing aggainst zerg and you see, that he takes a gas before his natrual, that most likely means that he will have fast zergling speed for mapcontroll or that he will doing a roach or baneling allin. If you see a hatch first and no gas, he can´t do a roach attack or baneling attack since he needs gas for the build. If you are playing a TvP and you see that your opponent has 2 gas and no nexus, he can do a lot of allins like dark templar play, blink stalker or void ray play. Those are all builds, which require a lot of gas. So basically opening gas opens a lot of aggressive options for every race, while expanding without gas delays the timing for the tech by quite a bit. Basically you are looking for gas timings, expandtion timings and at the size of your opponent´s army to determine what your opponent can and can´t be doing right know. However like i said, this is very matchup specific and you need some knowledge about the other races to judge what they are doing. In silver you don´t need to focus on scouting. Just play a solid build which is safe aggainst any build your opponent can do and practice your macro. With solid i mean a build which includes early detection and a good amount of units.
On October 13 2012 18:22 mokumoku wrote: Guys silver league terran here, just started playing. my biggest problem i have noticed is when im scouting i have no idea what I am looking for. When ever i see gas i don't think anything of it, i feel like i am blind when i don't know what the opponent is doing/going for and they always seem to counter what i have.
What can i do to know what the opponent is doing when i scout? what do i look for?
Well scouting really depends on the matchup. While scouting you want to look for things your opponent can´t be doing or can be doing. For example if you play a TvP and see a nexus first, your opponent can´t do the 4 gate allin build, since for the allin he needs early gas to research warpgate. If you are playing aggainst zerg and you see, that he takes a gas before his natrual, that most likely means that he will have fast zergling speed for mapcontroll or that he will doing a roach or baneling allin. If you see a hatch first and no gas, he can´t do a roach attack or baneling attack since he needs gas for the build. If you are playing a TvP and you see that your opponent has 2 gas and no nexus, he can do a lot of allins like dark templar play, blink stalker or void ray play. Those are all builds, which require a lot of gas. So basically opening gas opens a lot of aggressive options for every race, while expanding without gas delays the timing for the tech by quite a bit. Basically you are looking for gas timings, expandtion timings and at the size of your opponent´s army to determine what your opponent can and can´t be doing right know. However like i said, this is very matchup specific and you need some knowledge about the other races to judge what they are doing. In silver you don´t need to focus on scouting. Just play a solid build which is safe aggainst any build your opponent can do and practice your macro. With solid i mean a build which includes early detection and a good amount of units.
Thanks. Yeah my the only build i have that works is cc first against protoss, need to get some builds for terran and zerg. I am focusing on scouting now, all though i am silver i am only vsing platinum players and sometimes high golds.
Should i play zerg/protoss and practice with them so i know what to do against them when i am terran?
How should I react to a 6pool with drone pull if I'm going 1rax FE with my nat CC going down before the second depot. I.e. worst case scenario where he has 6 lings + 6? drones (ish) in my main and I only have a single marine on the way and 12-13 SCVs.
I feel like an idiot when I lose to a 6pool so any tips would be great.
On October 11 2012 04:20 Ace SpadeZ wrote: Does anyone have any good strategies against colossus backed by stalkers and zealots? I normally go marine, marauder, medivacs with some vikings, but it doesnt seem to have any effect; my army gets destroyed in seconds, while I hardly damage the enemies. Am I using an ineffective build, or am I not microing properly?
MMM + Vikings + Upgrades is the right composition but the problem is that overall it's much easier to control the Protoss army which means two players of roughly equal skill level the Protoss will have an advantage. It takes a loot of good micro and great positioning to beat the Protoss army and in the Gold<->Diamond skill range most Terrans (including my self) simply aren't good enough to handle the 'delicate' Terran army well enough to come out on top.
Seems this concept remains true until you start getting into higher levels of Master where Terrans are skilled enough to maintain proper army control and positioning.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing myself, but wanted to check in case I was doing something wrong. Its a bit unfair since zealots soak up all the damage while the colossus cut marines to ribbons. Hopefully Blizzard will realise soon and nerf some of those units. Guess Ill have to struggle on until then . Thanks for clearing that up either way .
You need to keep your army out of range of the colossus by shooting and scooting back, whilst your vikings pick his colossus off, once you have kite raped the zealots and his colossus have been whittled down by your vikings, or completely destroyed (depending on what he does with his stalkers) then you can just a-move in and rape his stalkers. This is why you get conc shell in TvP.
It's by no means easy, but that is why you have to look at the problem in a different way. Instead of asking why am I losing vs Protoss Deathball? Ask yourself why are you trading with protoss deathball? Why did I let him get a deathball in the first place? Why don't I do a small drop to distract him? etc, etc :x
Thanks, thats what I normally try and do now, but occasionally I still end up with a deathball on my hands. Your micro advice is very helpful, guess im past the point of hoping to win by outmacroing and brute force
Been away for a while, and when I came back the meta game shifted and now protoss keeps dropping zealots in my mineral line every single game.
What's the best way to deal with this? Small groups of marines don't kill the WP fast enough (and zealots roflstomp marines in close combat), and turrets are expensive and very hit-and-miss. I usually lose way too much, all in (generally winning me the game, but I should by all accounts lose to more competent players).
On October 13 2012 05:40 heyra wrote: How do I deal with stalker drops or early blink stalker when going 1 rax expand into 3rax starport? I dont see any possible way to hold the stalkers off if they dont attack into my bunkers
Thanks. Yeah my the only build i have that works is cc first against protoss, need to get some builds for terran and zerg. I am focusing on scouting now, all though i am silver i am only vsing platinum players and sometimes high golds.
Should i play zerg/protoss and practice with them so i know what to do against them when i am terran?
I wouldn´t advice doing a cc first build in silver league, since you only get ~ 3-4 scvs more than with 1 rax fe and that only if you are constantly making scvs. In addition proxy or early pressure builds are hard to handle.
I also wouldn´t advice to play the other races right now. In the lower leagues the player can´t play well and it´s difficult to guess what they are doing, because it just doesn´t make sense. Just focus on practicing your macro and you´ll get more wins in the long term. Scouting comes with experience, by playing your build a lot and facing a lot of different strategies. While playing you face some builds which are hard to handle and then you just look for indicators that makes you easier to react in time to that sort of build. Play safe. Build 1 or 2 bunkers more than usual, have early detection (safe scans or build turrets around 7 min. mark) and you´ll be fine against anything that your opponents can throw at you.
On October 13 2012 23:37 BobTheSCV wrote: Been away for a while, and when I came back the meta game shifted and now protoss keeps dropping zealots in my mineral line every single game.
What's the best way to deal with this? Small groups of marines don't kill the WP fast enough (and zealots roflstomp marines in close combat), and turrets are expensive and very hit-and-miss. I usually lose way too much, all in (generally winning me the game, but I should by all accounts lose to more competent players).
Are you talking about 1 base drops or drops after an expandtion? Against warpprism drops there two very important things you have to do. 1st: Have a good spread of supply depots to always spot the warpprism in time. 2nd: Always pull your scvs away if you see a warpprism and there are no units to defend the scvs. With this you shouldn´t loose much scvs at all and you´ll end up being ahead of your opponent, since he has to delay his tech in order to do warpprism drops that early. In the midgame you can just use your vikings to take care of them. It´s all about having a good view on the minimap to see the drops in time and then pulling the scvs away from danger. It´s actually really easy, but you need some practice to get the bite of it and since it´s rarely done it´s difficult to always remind themself that drops are possible in TvP.
On October 13 2012 19:47 kuroshiroi wrote: How should I react to a 6pool with drone pull if I'm going 1rax FE with my nat CC going down before the second depot. I.e. worst case scenario where he has 6 lings + 6? drones (ish) in my main and I only have a single marine on the way and 12-13 SCVs.
I feel like an idiot when I lose to a 6pool so any tips would be great.
It is with a cc first build, but the same concept can be applied to a 16 cc build.
On October 13 2012 22:52 Ace SpadeZ wrote: Thanks, thats what I normally try and do now, but occasionally I still end up with a deathball on my hands. Your micro advice is very helpful, guess im past the point of hoping to win by outmacroing and brute force
A little tip from my side. The biggest mistake i see low league player doing is to micro with their army hotkeys. If you stutter step with your hotkey, your medivacs won´t heal and all of your army will not fire. You only use your hotkeys for moving your army around and activating the abilities, but you micro manualy. Box the part of your army, that is attacked and stutter step it back, but still let your other bio units fire to maximize your damage in battle. It´s also easier to have your opponent attacking into you than attacking into your opponent, since you can stutter step away from the aoe units and kill the zealots first and then you can use good spreading to take care of the hts and collosi. So don´t attack move into your opponent. Use little troops to force your opponent to run into your army.
On October 13 2012 19:47 kuroshiroi wrote: How should I react to a 6pool with drone pull if I'm going 1rax FE with my nat CC going down before the second depot. I.e. worst case scenario where he has 6 lings + 6? drones (ish) in my main and I only have a single marine on the way and 12-13 SCVs.
I feel like an idiot when I lose to a 6pool so any tips would be great.
It is with a cc first build, but the same concept can be applied to a 16 cc build.
Ah, thanks, this should be helpful.
Another question, TvT, I go 1 rax FE, opponent goes 1 rax 3OC. Assuming I scout this at 6 minutes with a scan, how do I approach the rest of the game if I don't want to get steamrolled by macro. 2 medivac drop at 10 mins good enough?
EPT
. Thanks for clearing that up either way 
.
