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United States4883 Posts
On August 31 2012 19:42 Rasputincz wrote:
guys i have a question. I just switched to terrans and right now i think my level is around mid plat (atleast from what i have been playing). I have been thinking a lot about late tvz. Why nobody uses ghosts? I mean it sounds as a silly question they are useless with snipes but lets say you will make one or two rax with techlabs anyway cuz of threat of ultras. However the biggest problem i have been dealing in late game were infestors. I have been able to make enough marauders to kite ultras or enough vikings and ravens to smash corruptors and broods but the biggest problem comes with a lot of infestors. I thought it might be reasonable to make ghost academy and make like 2-3 ghosts with cloak and just emp as much infestors as possible and after that just attack. I know ghosts in general are expensive as hell but still i think its not completely silly idea.
Thoughts?
Well, the general way TvZ works now is that terran just splits marines and marauders out REALLY well to deny big fungals. In addition, terran players will try to focus down infestors with tanks/thors as well as lead their army with 3-4 marauders for infestor sniping. All of these techniques deal effectively with infestors without having to add extra tech.
If you want to try out ghosts for EMP, it's certainly viable though. I just think that if you go the ghost route, you either have to win engagements hands down or start utilizing nuking as well to justify going an additional tech path. Ghosts are certainly under-utilized these days, perhaps you can come up with a good way of solving lategame engagement problems with just some simple adjustments.
Good luck and happy experimenting!
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I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio
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On September 01 2012 03:01 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio You need vikings to engage broodlords. But TvZ has never been a deathball vs deathball matchup, it's all about skirmishes, harass and cost-effective trades.
yeah but what if the zerg gets that huge late game death ball then
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On September 01 2012 03:05 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:02 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 03:01 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio You need vikings to engage broodlords. But TvZ has never been a deathball vs deathball matchup, it's all about skirmishes, harass and cost-effective trades. yeah but what if the zerg gets that huge late game death ball then You can't fight that up front really. A Zerg deathball army is an army that is less capable of dealing with harass, compared to a midgame muta ling baneling army, or a ling infestor army. So you need to use tactics. Double drops, e.g. a couple of dropships to lure the infestors away, and then a doom-drop in another place. Broodlords are not good for counter-attacks, and ultralisks are actually not either. Vs lategame zerg you want to force a counter-attack which you are capable of defending. Attacking up front is suicide. Unless you're meching you can't actually trade cost-effective vs Zerg T3 army with infestors.
I tried that, but I guess I had too many workers or something. Lings took care of my 2 medivac drop and then my doom drop just died to the rest of the army 
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On September 01 2012 03:09 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:05 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 03:02 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 03:01 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio You need vikings to engage broodlords. But TvZ has never been a deathball vs deathball matchup, it's all about skirmishes, harass and cost-effective trades. yeah but what if the zerg gets that huge late game death ball then You can't fight that up front really. A Zerg deathball army is an army that is less capable of dealing with harass, compared to a midgame muta ling baneling army, or a ling infestor army. So you need to use tactics. Double drops, e.g. a couple of dropships to lure the infestors away, and then a doom-drop in another place. Broodlords are not good for counter-attacks, and ultralisks are actually not either. Vs lategame zerg you want to force a counter-attack which you are capable of defending. Attacking up front is suicide. Unless you're meching you can't actually trade cost-effective vs Zerg T3 army with infestors. I tried that, but I guess I had too many workers or something. Lings took care of my 2 medivac drop and then my doom drop just died to the rest of the army
The whole idea is that Broodlords are really slow, and they tie up a good portion of his army into something that can't fight drops. Also, broodlords NEED to be babysat. If he, say, sends his infestors to deal with the drops, you can go and crap on his corruptor/broodlord with your vikings since he has no fungals or ITs. It's hard to say what exactly went wrong with your game, but basically your goal is to make Zerg really sad he went for BLs.
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On September 01 2012 03:12 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:09 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 03:05 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 03:02 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 03:01 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio You need vikings to engage broodlords. But TvZ has never been a deathball vs deathball matchup, it's all about skirmishes, harass and cost-effective trades. yeah but what if the zerg gets that huge late game death ball then You can't fight that up front really. A Zerg deathball army is an army that is less capable of dealing with harass, compared to a midgame muta ling baneling army, or a ling infestor army. So you need to use tactics. Double drops, e.g. a couple of dropships to lure the infestors away, and then a doom-drop in another place. Broodlords are not good for counter-attacks, and ultralisks are actually not either. Vs lategame zerg you want to force a counter-attack which you are capable of defending. Attacking up front is suicide. Unless you're meching you can't actually trade cost-effective vs Zerg T3 army with infestors. I tried that, but I guess I had too many workers or something. Lings took care of my 2 medivac drop and then my doom drop just died to the rest of the army The whole idea is that Broodlords are really slow, and they tie up a good portion of his army into something that can't fight drops. Also, broodlords NEED to be babysat. If he, say, sends his infestors to deal with the drops, you can go and crap on his corruptor/broodlord with your vikings since he has no fungals or ITs. It's hard to say what exactly went wrong with your game, but basically your goal is to make Zerg really sad he went for BLs.
a lot of things went wrong with my game. Sadly I don't have the replay. I guess I was just curious what the hell to do when he gets that late game ball
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On September 01 2012 03:14 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:12 Blazinghand wrote:On September 01 2012 03:09 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 03:05 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 03:02 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 03:01 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio You need vikings to engage broodlords. But TvZ has never been a deathball vs deathball matchup, it's all about skirmishes, harass and cost-effective trades. yeah but what if the zerg gets that huge late game death ball then You can't fight that up front really. A Zerg deathball army is an army that is less capable of dealing with harass, compared to a midgame muta ling baneling army, or a ling infestor army. So you need to use tactics. Double drops, e.g. a couple of dropships to lure the infestors away, and then a doom-drop in another place. Broodlords are not good for counter-attacks, and ultralisks are actually not either. Vs lategame zerg you want to force a counter-attack which you are capable of defending. Attacking up front is suicide. Unless you're meching you can't actually trade cost-effective vs Zerg T3 army with infestors. I tried that, but I guess I had too many workers or something. Lings took care of my 2 medivac drop and then my doom drop just died to the rest of the army The whole idea is that Broodlords are really slow, and they tie up a good portion of his army into something that can't fight drops. Also, broodlords NEED to be babysat. If he, say, sends his infestors to deal with the drops, you can go and crap on his corruptor/broodlord with your vikings since he has no fungals or ITs. It's hard to say what exactly went wrong with your game, but basically your goal is to make Zerg really sad he went for BLs. a lot of things went wrong with my game. Sadly I don't have the replay. I guess I was just curious what the hell to do when he gets that late game ball
It's kinda rough honestly. You want a decent engage, and you want to punish him for making slow-moving BL/Infestor. Even moving across the map should be hard for him. After he's been whittled down a bit, either you have a big advantage and you attack into him, or you have a small advantage and he thinks he can take you (or can't retreat, or is forced to attack due to losing econ from drops). Depending on the engagement you either win or lose.
Don't forget vikings.
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On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio
I've personally just started to use 2 base Marauder / Hellion all-in every single game against zerg, it's still providing decent win rations thanks to the current meta-game.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On September 01 2012 03:20 Rokoz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio I've personally just started to use 2 base Marauder / Hellion all-in every single game against zerg, it's still providing decent win rations thanks to the current meta-game.
Lol actually this is also what I do ;_; I talk a big game but yeah I all in like half the time so my TvZ winrate doesn't get too low.
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what's the 2 base Marauder hellion build?
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On September 01 2012 03:31 Chaggi wrote:
what's the 2 base Marauder hellion build?
12 rax
13 gas
normal OC timing
@ 100 gas: factory
@ 50 gas: reactor on rax
Start Natural CC @ 400 minerals (since you are not making marines right now, you bank up for it)
swap, start hellion production
@25 gas: tech lab on rax
begin constant marauder and hellion production, get stimpack. Some versions of this build get medivacs, some get more rax for more bio units, but basically you get a lot of maruaders and hellions and attack.
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On September 01 2012 03:02 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:01 monkybone wrote:On September 01 2012 02:59 Chaggi wrote:
I have no idea how to play TvZ anymore. Been doing mech, dying to tech switches. Doing bio, dying to lol late game. How do you even engage a late game army with broods/infestors/lings/corruptor as bio You need vikings to engage broodlords. But TvZ has never been a deathball vs deathball matchup, it's all about skirmishes, harass and cost-effective trades. yeah but what if the zerg gets that huge late game death ball then
Some kind of Marine/Thor/Tank/Ghost/Viking/Raven army with 4 extra arms should do. BCs are great on maps allowing 5-bases turtle play but there are not many of them in the ladder pool.
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On September 01 2012 03:36 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:31 Chaggi wrote:
what's the 2 base Marauder hellion build? 12 rax 13 gas normal OC timing @ 100 gas: factory @ 50 gas: reactor on rax Start Natural CC @ 400 minerals (since you are not making marines right now, you bank up for it) swap, start hellion production @25 gas: tech lab on rax begin constant marauder and hellion production, get stimpack. Some versions of this build get medivacs, some get more rax for more bio units, but basically you get a lot of maruaders and hellions and attack.
Are you supposed to pressure after the 2nd maruader or do you wait for stim and push out?
Assuming you push when zerg starts their 3rd (stim), you would still push for the nat as this build is created to flat out kill your opponent, correct? As in, if you don't inflict enough dmg, you can't really transition out of it?
What about concussion?
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On August 31 2012 23:02 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 19:42 Rasputincz wrote:
guys i have a question. I just switched to terrans and right now i think my level is around mid plat (atleast from what i have been playing). I have been thinking a lot about late tvz. Why nobody uses ghosts? I mean it sounds as a silly question they are useless with snipes but lets say you will make one or two rax with techlabs anyway cuz of threat of ultras. However the biggest problem i have been dealing in late game were infestors. I have been able to make enough marauders to kite ultras or enough vikings and ravens to smash corruptors and broods but the biggest problem comes with a lot of infestors. I thought it might be reasonable to make ghost academy and make like 2-3 ghosts with cloak and just emp as much infestors as possible and after that just attack. I know ghosts in general are expensive as hell but still i think its not completely silly idea.
Thoughts? Well, the general way TvZ works now is that terran just splits marines and marauders out REALLY well to deny big fungals. In addition, terran players will try to focus down infestors with tanks/thors as well as lead their army with 3-4 marauders for infestor sniping. All of these techniques deal effectively with infestors without having to add extra tech. If you want to try out ghosts for EMP, it's certainly viable though. I just think that if you go the ghost route, you either have to win engagements hands down or start utilizing nuking as well to justify going an additional tech path. Ghosts are certainly under-utilized these days, perhaps you can come up with a good way of solving lategame engagement problems with just some simple adjustments. Good luck and happy experimenting!
Hi,
yea i know that about the splitting but i was more considered about the situation when zerg gets mass broods, couple corruptors and a lot of infestors. In that situation you will probably have some medivacs, tons of marines, maybe even some marauders, tanks and such and you will probably making vikings as a mad man. The biggest threat for me is actually not spliting the ground army but splitting the vikings which i found much much more difficult but maybe i just need to practice it more. However with making 1-3 ghosts with mobius reactor and cloak i think you have big chance to emp all those infestors and just roll over the zerg army with stimmed marines and most importantly vikings which will have to deal only with corruptors without the fungal support. I know that its just a theory and the biggest problem is the fact how gas heavy those lets say three ghosts are and all upgrades included. I still think it worth a try and i will try that in my ladder games. If it will work i will post some D topic about it with replays. Its still just idea though 
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On September 01 2012 05:19 Rasputincz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:02 SC2John wrote:On August 31 2012 19:42 Rasputincz wrote:
guys i have a question. I just switched to terrans and right now i think my level is around mid plat (atleast from what i have been playing). I have been thinking a lot about late tvz. Why nobody uses ghosts? I mean it sounds as a silly question they are useless with snipes but lets say you will make one or two rax with techlabs anyway cuz of threat of ultras. However the biggest problem i have been dealing in late game were infestors. I have been able to make enough marauders to kite ultras or enough vikings and ravens to smash corruptors and broods but the biggest problem comes with a lot of infestors. I thought it might be reasonable to make ghost academy and make like 2-3 ghosts with cloak and just emp as much infestors as possible and after that just attack. I know ghosts in general are expensive as hell but still i think its not completely silly idea.
Thoughts? Well, the general way TvZ works now is that terran just splits marines and marauders out REALLY well to deny big fungals. In addition, terran players will try to focus down infestors with tanks/thors as well as lead their army with 3-4 marauders for infestor sniping. All of these techniques deal effectively with infestors without having to add extra tech. If you want to try out ghosts for EMP, it's certainly viable though. I just think that if you go the ghost route, you either have to win engagements hands down or start utilizing nuking as well to justify going an additional tech path. Ghosts are certainly under-utilized these days, perhaps you can come up with a good way of solving lategame engagement problems with just some simple adjustments. Good luck and happy experimenting! Hi, yea i know that about the splitting but i was more considered about the situation when zerg gets mass broods, couple corruptors and a lot of infestors. In that situation you will probably have some medivacs, tons of marines, maybe even some marauders, tanks and such and you will probably making vikings as a mad man. The biggest threat for me is actually not spliting the ground army but splitting the vikings which i found much much more difficult but maybe i just need to practice it more. However with making 1-3 ghosts with mobius reactor and cloak i think you have big chance to emp all those infestors and just roll over the zerg army with stimmed marines and most importantly vikings which will have to deal only with corruptors without the fungal support. I know that its just a theory and the biggest problem is the fact how gas heavy those lets say three ghosts are and all upgrades included. I still think it worth a try and i will try that in my ladder games. If it will work i will post some D topic about it with replays. Its still just idea though
Yes, using some Ghosts is good if you have spare resources for them. If Zerg doesn't have Overseers you might as well use Snipe rather than EMP on Infestors, though, because one Cloaked Ghost with full energy can now kill 3 Infestors on its own. If you hid your Ghosts from the Zerg player, you should be able to capitalize on the effect surprise to dispose of Infestors. You may watch KawaiiRice's stream if you're interested in this kind of Ghost play.
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I 1 rax FE in all of my matchups, with a different transition to each, and if I scout correctly and react properly, which I'm learning to do better, I can read cheese and rushes about ~65% of the time now, I can defend properly, or survive, and still be able to play.
But the problem is some maps and MU's I don't really want to 1 rax FE. The only cheese I know is TvP 2 rax all in, but thats' the only build I know and if it gets scouted I lose, and I barely use it because of the chance of losing if he has a defense.
I look on TL wiki, but it hasn't been updated, and I don't really like the builds, cheeses, and rushes that they have and they don't really work for me.
What are some cheeses and/or rushes, hopefully one of each for each race, that I can use, that have chances of winning if not recognized or scouted? It would be nice to use another build in some matchups.
P.S. and are there other FE builds (not Banshee expand TvT, or hellion expand) that I can use that aren't 1 rax FE? Would also be nice to use more FE builds so when playing with friends, and doing friendly casual tourneys, it would be nice that my opponents get thrown off by another build. Thanks!
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EPT
