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United Kingdom12037 Posts
On August 14 2012 20:44 OneBaseKing wrote:
How many workers should i have per patch? I'm in masters but i don't even know it..
I think the optimal number is around 20 for full saturation, but you should aim for 16 per base AFAIK.
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Hey guys, does anybody know a good helion/banshee replay or vod that I can watch to steal the build?
Since I'm out of options against zerg, I want to give this a try.
Thanks in advance!
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In a 3 barracks build, how many Marines should I make before I add on my reactors and tech labs? Usually, I just do it whenever it "feels" right, but is there any set, standard, time people use and is there a philosphy behind it??
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On August 14 2012 22:51 TK42OnE wrote:
In a 3 barracks build, how many Marines should I make before I add on my reactors and tech labs? Usually, I just do it whenever it "feels" right, but is there any set, standard, time people use and is there a philosphy behind it??
More or less you will want to add on the tech lab asap so that you can start upgrades asap. Reactors can then also be added on as soon as you have the gas but while you feel safe. Because of reactors long build time it takes about 2 minutes for a reactor to have paid off and start producing more marines. So you want the reactors asap but not if under pressure.
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On August 14 2012 22:35 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 20:44 OneBaseKing wrote:
How many workers should i have per patch? I'm in masters but i don't even know it.. I think the optimal number is around 20 for full saturation, but you should aim for 16 per base AFAIK.
It is around 20 but because there are farther mineral patches away from some the normal timings are different so having those few extra scv's actually increase mineral income but they are not as efficent as the first 14 scv's
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On August 14 2012 22:15 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 20:37 Kamwah wrote:On August 14 2012 19:59 dynwar7 wrote:Does anybody have replays of a bio player winning vs mech by using nukes to force unsiege? Been searching ages but cannot find any....  Why would you need one? It's not really something that explains anything by seeing it. What are you trying to understand about it? Jst want to see and learn, people have different ways of learning, I will learn a lot by simply watching games. So, anybody has any?
Does no one on TL really have a replay of bio player using nukes vs mech to force unsiege and win? I just want to see some replays of this used by pros to have an idea... T_T
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Hey guys, I am struggling mightily vs mech in TvT. I really hate facing it, and every time I play vs mech I end up with more stuff, more bases, but I eventually spread my army, hit "T", and a move and die. I just can't stand sitting there doing nothing but macro for an hour. So I need some advice.
If you can give me tips on how to transition out of Thorzains build that would be great. What I have as far as info-structure when I find out they are meching, is 3 raxes (2 reactor, 1 tech lab), one starport (reactor), one factory (tech lab). I also have stim, combat shield, and +1 bio. What should my philosophy be here? As of now, I am adding raxes, taking 3rd/4th, and building massive bio. And I always just get hammered, because you can't drop (mech players drop a lot of turrets), and if I do attack I get bad trades.
Transition quickly to air? Make nothing but maraders? Make a few tanks and try for an early contain? I really have no direction which is my problem. This leads to massive frustration and the aforementioned giant bio army attacks that lose me the game. I feel like I did vs toss before I figured out that you can never actually fight his army straight up, and instead to hit and run constantly. Help appreciated, thanks!
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On August 15 2012 00:18 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 22:15 dynwar7 wrote:On August 14 2012 20:37 Kamwah wrote:On August 14 2012 19:59 dynwar7 wrote:Does anybody have replays of a bio player winning vs mech by using nukes to force unsiege? Been searching ages but cannot find any.... Why would you need one? It's not really something that explains anything by seeing it. What are you trying to understand about it? Jst want to see and learn, people have different ways of learning, I will learn a lot by simply watching games. So, anybody has any? Does no one on TL really have a replay of bio player using nukes vs mech to force unsiege and win? I just want to see some replays of this used by pros to have an idea... T_T
Stop spamming. Someone would have seen your last several posts on it and provided one if they were going to.
I honestly don't see how hard it is to understand that you build a ghost, get cloak, get a nuke and try and nuke his tank line from an unexpected angle(with 1 or more Ghosts) and hope he doesn't scan to pick it off. Then you move in and siege up but don't be so greedy in your positioning that he stims in and kills half your tanks.
On August 14 2012 22:43 Babyschwein wrote:
Hey guys, does anybody know a good helion/banshee replay or vod that I can watch to steal the build?
Since I'm out of options against zerg, I want to give this a try.
Thanks in advance!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972
The simplest Hellion/Banshee build is in that thread. There are variants like starting off with a reactor (after 15gas) on the rax to get more marines then expand then 2nd gas.
I find it's good for throwing off Zergs who're expecting Hellion/Banshee.
On August 15 2012 00:23 Iron_ wrote:
Hey guys, I am struggling mightily vs mech in TvT. I really hate facing it, and every time I play vs mech I end up with more stuff, more bases, but I eventually spread my army, hit "T", and a move and die. I just can't stand sitting there doing nothing but macro for an hour. So I need some advice.
If you can give me tips on how to transition out of Thorzains build that would be great. What I have as far as info-structure when I find out they are meching, is 3 raxes (2 reactor, 1 tech lab), one starport (reactor), one factory (tech lab). I also have stim, combat shield, and +1 bio. What should my philosophy be here? As of now, I am adding raxes, taking 3rd/4th, and building massive bio. And I always just get hammered, because you can't drop (mech players drop a lot of turrets), and if I do attack I get bad trades.
Transition quickly to air? Make nothing but maraders? Make a few tanks and try for an early contain? I really have no direction which is my problem. This leads to massive frustration and the aforementioned giant bio army attacks that lose me the game. I feel like I did vs toss before I figured out that you can never actually fight his army straight up, and instead to hit and run constantly. Help appreciated, thanks!
Mech vs Bio is something a lot of Terran players and casters have a skewered and wrong view on. A lot of them say Mech is a stronger playstyle than Bio which is completely wrong.
When you play bio against a mech'ing Terran you need to play like how a Zerg would.
You need to be out on the map, denying bases, harassing and most importantly try to keep him in his base and make it so he can't move out easily without you catching him unsieged and picking off a good chunk of his army.
Remember that you can reproduce much quicker and also out expand him but make sure not to overexpand.
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. An early contain isn't bad and can work but don't forget he'll have vikings so get some of your own cos you'll need dominance.
Oh and the golden rule is to always engage from multiple angles.
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On August 14 2012 22:51 TK42OnE wrote:
In a 3 barracks build, how many Marines should I make before I add on my reactors and tech labs? Usually, I just do it whenever it "feels" right, but is there any set, standard, time people use and is there a philosphy behind it??
Assuming you talk about the following of a FE you'd get 3rax/bunker then double gas, get tech lab asap and start stim. You get the other add ons while you're building your port if you go for 2TL/1reactor or while building your factory if you go for 2reactors/1tech lab. It's just to manage your gas/minerals ratio properly.
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On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode.
I don't get why you write such things.
1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio).
2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs.
3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control.
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On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control.
XD
I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well.
I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point.
He said mass marauders, not MMM.
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Russian Federation5 Posts
Can anyone list all the zerg allins up to 13-14 minute? Because as I saw them, there had been 2 layers of allins: really early ling baneling around 6.30-7.00 (they need early gas for this), then like 8.15-8.30 ling roach push (not sure if that's an allin) and 9.15-9.30 heavy ling baneling roach allin. Today I've seen 3 hatch into allin at around 10.30-11 minute mark. I'm trying to play really greedy, 3 CC double eng bay into 6 hellions and no-cloak banshee, and have really hard time against these allins. It just feels like you need to play greedy against zerg, but you got countered by any type of allin, and if you play super safe, you got countered by really early hive tech after. Anyways, the problem now is still my lack of understanding zerg allins and how to scout it perfectly, so any info on this will be really helpful, thanks!
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On August 15 2012 05:16 Kamwah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control. XD I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well. I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point. He said mass marauders, not MMM.
You can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. Barring an unusually open map that favors Bio a great deal, or some serious advantages gained in the early and mid game, eventually, yes, the bio play MUST tech up. He needs to do an air transition, because mech scales better than bio. As turrets and statics come up and the mech player becomes more and more unassailable, the advantages of bio die out.
Any pro player who goes for bio is eventually forced into an air transition, and honestly it's not a bad transition, since in TvT air units are excellent. At a low level you could probably go Bio all game, though it'd be tough, but if you want to play well you'll learn an air transition.
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On August 16 2012 05:00 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 05:16 Kamwah wrote:On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control. XD I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well. I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point. He said mass marauders, not MMM. You can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. Barring an unusually open map that favors Bio a great deal, or some serious advantages gained in the early and mid game, eventually, yes, the bio play MUST tech up. He needs to do an air transition, because mech scales better than bio. As turrets and statics come up and the mech player becomes more and more unassailable, the advantages of bio die out. Any pro player who goes for bio is eventually forced into an air transition, and honestly it's not a bad transition, since in TvT air units are excellent. At a low level you could probably go Bio all game, though it'd be tough, but if you want to play well you'll learn an air transition.
Ok then if that's what you wish to believe random GM Terran.
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On August 16 2012 05:14 Kamwah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 05:00 Blazinghand wrote:On August 15 2012 05:16 Kamwah wrote:On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control. XD I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well. I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point. He said mass marauders, not MMM. You can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. Barring an unusually open map that favors Bio a great deal, or some serious advantages gained in the early and mid game, eventually, yes, the bio play MUST tech up. He needs to do an air transition, because mech scales better than bio. As turrets and statics come up and the mech player becomes more and more unassailable, the advantages of bio die out. Any pro player who goes for bio is eventually forced into an air transition, and honestly it's not a bad transition, since in TvT air units are excellent. At a low level you could probably go Bio all game, though it'd be tough, but if you want to play well you'll learn an air transition. Ok then if that's what you wish to believe random GM Terran.
I back up my claims with the following evidences:
1) this is what all the GSL terrans do in TvT
2) this is my experience as a master league Terran player
3) it's actually quite true in general that splash damage scales as unit count rises.
I certainly don't think bio is unviable against mech, but on your typical more closed-route map, a mech player eventually becomes exceedingly hard to attack with bio units (edit:unless of course the bio player develops an advantage in the early or mid game). Air transition becomes optimal in the lategame.
You can either back up YOUR claims with evidence, or you stop discussing them. Leave your snark at the door, please.
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On August 16 2012 05:14 Kamwah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 05:00 Blazinghand wrote:On August 15 2012 05:16 Kamwah wrote:On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control. XD I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well. I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point. He said mass marauders, not MMM. You can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. Barring an unusually open map that favors Bio a great deal, or some serious advantages gained in the early and mid game, eventually, yes, the bio play MUST tech up. He needs to do an air transition, because mech scales better than bio. As turrets and statics come up and the mech player becomes more and more unassailable, the advantages of bio die out. Any pro player who goes for bio is eventually forced into an air transition, and honestly it's not a bad transition, since in TvT air units are excellent. At a low level you could probably go Bio all game, though it'd be tough, but if you want to play well you'll learn an air transition. Ok then if that's what you wish to believe random GM Terran.
Talking about Thors and small map in the same sentence about TvT is enough to discredit anything you'll say in the strategy section, no need for ad hominems. Especially when Mvp disagree with you. Every kor T say the same thing atm: mech rapes bio if you force a fight on equal supply. You claimed to be smarter than Mvp tho so I'll beg you to leave those forums, we don't deserve such a godlike insight.
On every tournament map you need to transition sooner or latter into air play against mech, wether you're playing bio or mech if you can't kill him in mid game. Tanks scale way to well and you simply can't deal with 10+ tanks on the ground. If you crippled him enough in mid game pure macro + doom drops can work.
On ladder maps I think that pure bio might work on condemned ridge and TDA. You can deny mech bases after the 3rd and with huge macro mode afford bad trades as long as you prevent the meching players from expanding. Tho an air transition is viable too and while it's riskier in term of stragtegy it's way easier to execute.
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On August 16 2012 05:22 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 05:14 Kamwah wrote:On August 16 2012 05:00 Blazinghand wrote:On August 15 2012 05:16 Kamwah wrote:On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control. XD I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well. I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point. He said mass marauders, not MMM. You can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. Barring an unusually open map that favors Bio a great deal, or some serious advantages gained in the early and mid game, eventually, yes, the bio play MUST tech up. He needs to do an air transition, because mech scales better than bio. As turrets and statics come up and the mech player becomes more and more unassailable, the advantages of bio die out. Any pro player who goes for bio is eventually forced into an air transition, and honestly it's not a bad transition, since in TvT air units are excellent. At a low level you could probably go Bio all game, though it'd be tough, but if you want to play well you'll learn an air transition. Ok then if that's what you wish to believe random GM Terran. Talking about Thors and small map in the same sentence about TvT is enough to discredit anything you'll say in the strategy section, no need for ad hominems. Especially when Mvp disagree with you. Every kor T say the same thing atm: mech rapes bio if you force a fight on equal supply. You claimed to be smarter than Mvp tho so I'll beg you to leave those forums, we don't deserve such a godlike insight. On every tournament map you need to transition sooner or latter into air play against mech, wether you're playing bio or mech if you can't kill him in mid game. Tanks scale way to well and you simply can't deal with 10+ tanks on the ground. If you crippled him enough in mid game pure macro + doom drops can work. On ladder maps I think that pure bio might work on condemned ridge and TDA. You can deny mech bases after the 3rd and with huge macro mode afford bad trades as long as you prevent the meching players from expanding. Tho an air transition is viable too and while it's riskier in term of stragtegy it's way easier to execute.
Already mentioned it was a mistype. Seeing how you read every post except the one that mentions that.
I won't bother replying to such retards that are just going to sprout crap like "You must be smarter than MVP!"
Btw Blazing, I gave some comments to someone asking for help. You're the one who claimed something first.
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On August 16 2012 05:27 Kamwah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 05:22 sAsImre wrote:On August 16 2012 05:14 Kamwah wrote:On August 16 2012 05:00 Blazinghand wrote:On August 15 2012 05:16 Kamwah wrote:On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control. XD I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well. I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point. He said mass marauders, not MMM. You can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. Barring an unusually open map that favors Bio a great deal, or some serious advantages gained in the early and mid game, eventually, yes, the bio play MUST tech up. He needs to do an air transition, because mech scales better than bio. As turrets and statics come up and the mech player becomes more and more unassailable, the advantages of bio die out. Any pro player who goes for bio is eventually forced into an air transition, and honestly it's not a bad transition, since in TvT air units are excellent. At a low level you could probably go Bio all game, though it'd be tough, but if you want to play well you'll learn an air transition. Ok then if that's what you wish to believe random GM Terran. Talking about Thors and small map in the same sentence about TvT is enough to discredit anything you'll say in the strategy section, no need for ad hominems. Especially when Mvp disagree with you. Every kor T say the same thing atm: mech rapes bio if you force a fight on equal supply. You claimed to be smarter than Mvp tho so I'll beg you to leave those forums, we don't deserve such a godlike insight. On every tournament map you need to transition sooner or latter into air play against mech, wether you're playing bio or mech if you can't kill him in mid game. Tanks scale way to well and you simply can't deal with 10+ tanks on the ground. If you crippled him enough in mid game pure macro + doom drops can work. On ladder maps I think that pure bio might work on condemned ridge and TDA. You can deny mech bases after the 3rd and with huge macro mode afford bad trades as long as you prevent the meching players from expanding. Tho an air transition is viable too and while it's riskier in term of stragtegy it's way easier to execute. Already mentioned it was a mistype. Seeing how you read every post except the one that mentions that. I won't bother replying to such retards that are just going to sprout crap like "You must be smarter than MVP!" Btw Blazing, I gave some comments to someone asking for help. You're the one who claimed something first.
Quoting yourself: Casters and players don't know how to play mech, sorry but IMMvp comments are the opposite of what you're claming, same for Polt. You pretend they're wrong and then go for ad homines, moking Blazing skill (btw his contribution to TL is a 1000times worth yours) or calling me a retard.
There is one moron here and you're unable to recognize who it is.
it's sad that such poor advices who are either made because of incompetency or pure malice are written in the Terran Help me Thread when they don't help at all.
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On August 16 2012 05:33 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 05:27 Kamwah wrote:On August 16 2012 05:22 sAsImre wrote:On August 16 2012 05:14 Kamwah wrote:On August 16 2012 05:00 Blazinghand wrote:On August 15 2012 05:16 Kamwah wrote:On August 15 2012 05:01 TheDwf wrote:On August 15 2012 01:04 Kamwah wrote:
Also on smaller maps remember that mech is at a disadvantage because he's not going to be able to get many Thors and his siege tanks are largely immobile so drops work very well (like a 10-11min TvP timing except Hellions don't tank like Zealots).
I feel that transitioning to Air is a bad move because a Mech'ing player will always have vikings because they need air dominance. Mass marauder is bad because when I see that I just throw down a few startports for PDDs and then his army is useless and it allows me to move anywhere and be caught unsieged and still have time to go into siege mode. I don't get why you write such things. 1. Smaller maps does not necessarily mean disadvantage for mech. You have to factor terrain (chokes or wide open middles, is the third/fourth hard to protect or not, etc.). Besides, I don't see any relation between map size and Thors (which are not even necessary against bio). 2. The bio → air transition is forced at some point. Some games will never reach that point, but if the mech player stabilizes while mining 8 gas, he'll be able to afford armies against which no bio army will be cost-efficient, even with sick concaves and flanking. Regardless of your midgame composition, your lategame goal should always be getting Vikings/Ravens/BCs. 3. How can mass Marauders be bad? Bio = MMM, what else would you do? Marines? You sure make Marines but you don't want to have mainly them since BFH and Tanks shut them down easily. And yes, Marauders are vulnerable to PDDs, which is why you have to transition to air because once he has enough Tanks and some Ravens MMM won't do anything. It does not matter if he already has some Vikings, you can just go double Reactor Starport to outproduce him and take back air control. XD I'd just woken up when I typed that. I meant to write that on smaller maps with short rush distances the bio player can have a considerable force to attack the Mech'ing player before he has siege tanks and good micro against hellions works well. I disagree that bio is unable to beat a mech'ing player at any point. He said mass marauders, not MMM. You can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. Barring an unusually open map that favors Bio a great deal, or some serious advantages gained in the early and mid game, eventually, yes, the bio play MUST tech up. He needs to do an air transition, because mech scales better than bio. As turrets and statics come up and the mech player becomes more and more unassailable, the advantages of bio die out. Any pro player who goes for bio is eventually forced into an air transition, and honestly it's not a bad transition, since in TvT air units are excellent. At a low level you could probably go Bio all game, though it'd be tough, but if you want to play well you'll learn an air transition. Ok then if that's what you wish to believe random GM Terran. Talking about Thors and small map in the same sentence about TvT is enough to discredit anything you'll say in the strategy section, no need for ad hominems. Especially when Mvp disagree with you. Every kor T say the same thing atm: mech rapes bio if you force a fight on equal supply. You claimed to be smarter than Mvp tho so I'll beg you to leave those forums, we don't deserve such a godlike insight. On every tournament map you need to transition sooner or latter into air play against mech, wether you're playing bio or mech if you can't kill him in mid game. Tanks scale way to well and you simply can't deal with 10+ tanks on the ground. If you crippled him enough in mid game pure macro + doom drops can work. On ladder maps I think that pure bio might work on condemned ridge and TDA. You can deny mech bases after the 3rd and with huge macro mode afford bad trades as long as you prevent the meching players from expanding. Tho an air transition is viable too and while it's riskier in term of stragtegy it's way easier to execute. Already mentioned it was a mistype. Seeing how you read every post except the one that mentions that. I won't bother replying to such retards that are just going to sprout crap like "You must be smarter than MVP!" Btw Blazing, I gave some comments to someone asking for help. You're the one who claimed something first. Quoting yourself: Casters and players don't know how to play mech, sorry but IMMvp comments are the opposite of what you're claming, same for Polt. You pretend they're wrong and then go for ad homines, moking Blazing skill (btw his contribution to TL is a 1000times worth yours) or calling me a retard. There is one moron here and you're unable to recognize who it is. it's sad that such poor advices who are either made because of incompetency or pure malice are written in the Terran Help me Thread when they don't help at all.
You are a retard, I said they had the wrong view on Bio Vs Mech. Not that they don't know how to play it. Learn to read.
You're probably one of those guys who was like "wtf why have Zergs suddenly started going Ultras?"
Just because it's the popular opinion doesn't make it correct.
Just to add, this started out as me arguing against someone who said bio was not viable against mech. I say it is and I've never once said that Bio or Mech is stronger.
User was warned for this post
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masters terran here.
I'm having trouble against zerg doing the standard fe into 4 hellion banshee because the hellion and banshee cant do anything. Is there any better build these days?
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EPT
