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On May 11 2012 02:48 Vulture174 wrote:
My question is for tvt I have been exploring pure bio mmm and have been having trouble with mech players that turtle supper hard with sensor towers and missile turrets to completely shut down my drop play. This is especially hard on some of the newer maps like korhal compound. Then they move out with a massive army of 20 tanks or so that I just can't engage. My question is if a player is turtling this hard should I just transition to marine tank myself or maybe sky terran? I am not sure what to do. (I am a plat lvl random player)
http://drop.sc/175072 TvT bio vs mech on korhal compound against a 900pt tank turret sensor tower turtle terran. I almost lose it with bad macro, but the key is just continual bouncing around, forcing him to move his shit and never feel 'safe' as you take bases.
On May 11 2012 04:25 IMoperator wrote:
What openers are you guys using TvZ now with the queen buff? Still reactor hellion?
Still demuslim like TvZ. It's delayed hellions, so I don't stop much creep spread or super early thirds, as is...but the push is still very effective, and you are still very, very safe to almost any bust and all in.
http://drop.sc/175669 TvZ cross map metalopolis vs ROG.MoMaN
http://drop.sc/175070 TvZ cross map metaolopis vs cafesuada a 900pt 300apm monster zerg.
http://drop.sc/175668 TvZ vs neko 750pt master Z (Lost 4 units or something this game, push outright wins)
Marine hellion 2-4 marauder stim/cs/+1 push that is just baller as shit.
Couple more for you from today on ladder.
http://drop.sc/176261 vs 800pt masters Z fast third (no gas open)
http://drop.sc/176262 vs 700pt masters Z roach ling heavy pressure -> fast third
http://drop.sc/176263 vs 900pt masters Z fast third -> mass muta to infestor hive.
When I see such a fast third with so few units, I always go out before stim cs and +1 finish. Stupid, but I almost always stop the expo and force a metric shit ton of units.
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Hi, i have two questions:
- What is the best version of the 1-1-1 right now? (in particolar which BO)
- Which is the build order for the elevetor drop (marine+hellion)?
Thank you
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can anyone recommend some vids on tvz macro type builds cause i'm kinda down in my MMR with tvz again and also if you 1 rax fe against toss what are some ideas on what how to proceed and also on Meta where should i put my bunkers at to make sure that the toss does not go around my back and attack my workers?
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On May 11 2012 12:21 Blackknight232 wrote:
can anyone recommend some vids on tvz macro type builds cause i'm kinda down in my MMR with tvz again and also if you 1 rax fe against toss what are some ideas on what how to proceed and also on Meta where should i put my bunkers at to make sure that the toss does not go around my back and attack my workers?
Two posts up dude. Check out those reps I posted. I get an early third, and go into 5 rax 2 fac 1 port double ebay armory by like 10-12 minutes in every TvZ and it's VERY strong of a push before hand.
It's a demuslim style opening.
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On May 11 2012 12:21 Blackknight232 wrote:
can anyone recommend some vids on tvz macro type builds cause i'm kinda down in my MMR with tvz again and also if you 1 rax fe against toss what are some ideas on what how to proceed and also on Meta where should i put my bunkers at to make sure that the toss does not go around my back and attack my workers?
Regarding the bunker placement on Metalopolis and the Protoss using his stalkers to hit your mineral line. If you mean that he uses just a couple of stalkers to move around and harass, then you can take them out easily if he walks into your mineral line. What you do is that you use your stalkers to block them behind your mineral line, and your marines to shot them down. The Protoss usually relies on kiting your marines, if they go behind your mineral line and you get surround or block with your SCV's; he can not kite and you will make a good trade.
Regarding TvZ. I feel that the matchup is getting quite hard now. Right now I am experimenting a lot with the reaper opening that Day9 had on this channel a few episodes ago, where he go proxy reaper into 3 bunkers to kill the zerg's hatchery. A lot of games you just win straight up with the reaper. I also think that it's OK transition out of it if it fails. I usually don't go into banshees that Day9 suggests, I prefer going barracks heavy (if I do good damage) or double expanding (if the damage I do isnt too great) to three base.
The big danger is the roach all in that could come when he see your reaper. However this can be quite easily scouted by you so that you can complete a bunker at home with a marauder in it.
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For anyone looking for some non hellion TvZ builds, I believe I have the answer.
http://drop.sc/178031 900 pt master
It's a 15cc opening into 6 naked barracks.
The idea of this build is to present a real threat of killing your opponent and force him to make something other than drones in the first 8 minutes of the game.
There are some really slick things you can do with this build.
If you scout an early 3rd base (which happens quite a bit if zerg scouts 15cc), you can pull 3 scvs and attack the 3rd with 12 or so marines and kill it.
If you notice the zerg does not have a 3rd base, you can take all 4 of your gasses at once, double e-bay, 3rd cc, 3 tech labs, 3 reactors, factory all at once. (No, I'm not kidding!).
It's very streamlined and leads nicely into whatever you want. I normally take it into straight MMM, because I'm oldschool like that.
I also like going MMM with 2 factory thor once I stabilize on 3 bases. You will notice in this game how fucking OP MMM + thor is vs zerg.
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On May 12 2012 00:15 ButtCraft wrote:For anyone looking for some non hellion TvZ builds, I believe I have the answer. http://drop.sc/178031 900 pt master It's a 15cc opening into 6 naked barracks. The idea of this build is to present a real threat of killing your opponent and force him to make something other than drones in the first 8 minutes of the game. There are some really slick things you can do with this build. If you scout an early 3rd base (which happens quite a bit if zerg scouts 15cc), you can pull 3 scvs and attack the 3rd with 12 or so marines and kill it. If you notice the zerg does not have a 3rd base, you can take all 4 of your gasses at once, double e-bay, 3rd cc, 3 tech labs, 3 reactors, factory all at once. (No, I'm not kidding!). It's very streamlined and leads nicely into whatever you want. I normally take it into straight MMM, because I'm oldschool like that. I also like going MMM with 2 factory thor once I stabilize on 3 bases. You will notice in this game how fucking OP MMM + thor is vs zerg.
Sounds awesome!
Having a way to kill quick thirds is something I've had problems with going CC first.
Would you mind uploading a couple more replays if/when you have any?
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On May 11 2012 06:24 stichtom wrote:
Hi, i have two questions:
- What is the best version of the 1-1-1 right now? (in particolar which BO)
- Which is the build order for the elevetor drop (marine+hellion)?
Thank you
Elevator Marine hellion is something like this :
13 normal gas timing
factory with first 100 gas
reactor on rax
( don't switch )
starport when factory finish
produce up to 3 hellions with the factory meanwhile ( and constant marine with the reactored rax )
move out a bit early so your medivac catch up near his base
put your CC down during the attack
If you want an example game, look for MMA vs Polt in the latest arena qualifier, on shakuras plateau ( game 2 I think )
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On May 12 2012 00:27 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 00:15 ButtCraft wrote:For anyone looking for some non hellion TvZ builds, I believe I have the answer. http://drop.sc/178031 900 pt master It's a 15cc opening into 6 naked barracks. The idea of this build is to present a real threat of killing your opponent and force him to make something other than drones in the first 8 minutes of the game. There are some really slick things you can do with this build. If you scout an early 3rd base (which happens quite a bit if zerg scouts 15cc), you can pull 3 scvs and attack the 3rd with 12 or so marines and kill it. If you notice the zerg does not have a 3rd base, you can take all 4 of your gasses at once, double e-bay, 3rd cc, 3 tech labs, 3 reactors, factory all at once. (No, I'm not kidding!). It's very streamlined and leads nicely into whatever you want. I normally take it into straight MMM, because I'm oldschool like that. I also like going MMM with 2 factory thor once I stabilize on 3 bases. You will notice in this game how fucking OP MMM + thor is vs zerg. Sounds awesome! Having a way to kill quick thirds is something I've had problems with going CC first. Would you mind uploading a couple more replays if/when you have any?
I'm glad you asked! I just found a game I played yesterday where I executed my build perfectly. Follow this replay. Not the other one.
You'll notice that just by having a presence on the map with your initial marines forces the zerg to make units, not drones. This let me have a 50 supply lead by the 14:00 mark.
http://drop.sc/178032
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I'm having a ton of trouble TvZ atm. Infestor/broodlord is the most ridiculously OP unit composition in the game. I really wish terran had some good t3 units because I hate both nonmirror matchups right now.
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On May 12 2012 04:47 IMoperator wrote:
I'm having a ton of trouble TvZ atm. Infestor/broodlord is the most ridiculously OP unit composition in the game. I really wish terran had some good t3 units because I hate both nonmirror matchups right now.
Funny, since in my last... I don't know.... 15-20 TvZ against high masters and GM I haven't had a single game reach ultralisk or broodlords effectively...meaning having the 8-10 infestors, 8-10 broods etc.
Constant aggression after initial pushes as you take extra bases and defend properly is the key. You're going to have to drop that all bio style you seem to love, and learn to go into tanks and how to split hit/drop + push at the same time. There is no way around it if you want to win high level TvZ.
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On May 12 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:47 IMoperator wrote:
I'm having a ton of trouble TvZ atm. Infestor/broodlord is the most ridiculously OP unit composition in the game. I really wish terran had some good t3 units because I hate both nonmirror matchups right now. Funny, since in my last... I don't know.... 15-20 TvZ against high masters and GM I haven't had a single game reach ultralisk or broodlords effectively...meaning having the 8-10 infestors, 8-10 broods etc. Constant aggression after initial pushes as you take extra bases and defend properly is the key. You're going to have to drop that all bio style you seem to love, and learn to go into tanks and how to split hit/drop + push at the same time. There is no way around it if you want to win high level TvZ.
Yeah I have no idea what to open with now, because I did reaper expo before but with the queen buff I can't even scout their base with it.
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On May 12 2012 05:39 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 12 2012 04:47 IMoperator wrote:
I'm having a ton of trouble TvZ atm. Infestor/broodlord is the most ridiculously OP unit composition in the game. I really wish terran had some good t3 units because I hate both nonmirror matchups right now. Funny, since in my last... I don't know.... 15-20 TvZ against high masters and GM I haven't had a single game reach ultralisk or broodlords effectively...meaning having the 8-10 infestors, 8-10 broods etc. Constant aggression after initial pushes as you take extra bases and defend properly is the key. You're going to have to drop that all bio style you seem to love, and learn to go into tanks and how to split hit/drop + push at the same time. There is no way around it if you want to win high level TvZ. Yeah I have no idea what to open with now, because I did reaper expo before but with the queen buff I can't even scout their base with it.
Look at the reps I posted. It's a stim cs +1 push, that is VERY fucking strong, and gets an early third still, and goes into a very safe/strong 5/2/1 building lay out.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694¤tpage=221#4401
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On May 12 2012 06:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:39 IMoperator wrote:On May 12 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 12 2012 04:47 IMoperator wrote:
I'm having a ton of trouble TvZ atm. Infestor/broodlord is the most ridiculously OP unit composition in the game. I really wish terran had some good t3 units because I hate both nonmirror matchups right now. Funny, since in my last... I don't know.... 15-20 TvZ against high masters and GM I haven't had a single game reach ultralisk or broodlords effectively...meaning having the 8-10 infestors, 8-10 broods etc. Constant aggression after initial pushes as you take extra bases and defend properly is the key. You're going to have to drop that all bio style you seem to love, and learn to go into tanks and how to split hit/drop + push at the same time. There is no way around it if you want to win high level TvZ. Yeah I have no idea what to open with now, because I did reaper expo before but with the queen buff I can't even scout their base with it. Look at the reps I posted. It's a stim cs +1 push, that is VERY fucking strong, and gets an early third still, and goes into a very safe/strong 5/2/1 building lay out. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694¤tpage=221#4401
Ok I'll check them out thanks man.
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I'm going 1-rax FE into 3-1-1 with a Marine/Tank/Medivac timing push before Spire gets out. My only question is what do you do against Zergs who don't get an early 3rd and goes quick Lair for Muta? The timing push usually gets facerolled whenever I attempt it.
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On May 11 2012 03:06 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 02:32 kranten wrote:On May 11 2012 01:38 Targe wrote:Ok, I'm a relatively high Bronze Player (IMO) and I'm unsure of what to do late game. Mainly due to the fact that matches at my level never actually reach there. Now, I know my macro isn't great, and micro could use some work; but could anyone take the time to take a look at this replay? Would be a great help! http://drop.sc/176088As you can see from the replay, I try to trade with his armies and drop a little but when it comes to the end he suddenly steamrolls me with a couple archons. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling OP or IMBA, I don't actually care what is imba etc. I believe I was just unprepared for a situation I've never been in before. Again, thanks in advance to anyone who can help. ~Targe You have to focus on scv production and economy, you had 37 at 10 minutes, when you could have had 50 (it's pretty hard though). You also didn't saturate your 3rd and 4th base. This was because you didn't have scvs but in case you didn't know: you'll want 16 scvs on minerals per base. I suggest you take a look at this youtube channel: (there's a TL thread too but I couldn't find it http://www.youtube.com/user/filtersc If you're close to those benchmarks you'll easily roll every protoss in bronze. Thanks for the advice, the whole SCV thing is actually one of the things I've been working on (And I've been using that guide you just linked ! Theyre really helpful and Ive been working on those benchmarks.) Thing is, when practicing, I can hit the benchmark, however when I get into a proper game, I slip. I guess just more practice is needed, one of the reasons I started taking it to more competitive games, to try and get into the habit of keeping the SCVs up even when under pressure. 16 SCVs? I'm guessing this is referring to more late game? As early game I thought it was in the mid high twenties? Thanks again for the help. `
Yes I believe full saturation is like 20,24? I'm not 100% sure. just spread the scvs evenly between your bases you'll be fine.
What helped me when I was bronze/silver was scouting way less, just scout his location and that's it. This lets you focus on pure macro. You can add 1 or 2 bunkers to be safe.
You might die to a void ray all in, warp prism or other dumb stuff, but so be it. You won't be able to read what they're doing anyway as their build order doesn't really make sense. (and if it did they would get promoted very quickly)
Also if you mess up because you're nervous, just play tons of games  Good luck!
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Full saturation is 24 workers per mineral line plus 3 per vespene geyser. Optimal saturation is 16 workers per mineral line.
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As long as you scout a Zerg delaying third base there's no particular reason to actually push, just scout what you can, defend, and expand; until you can put together a strong enough push with sufficient defence at home (turrets and rallied barracks production) - like, 2-2 infantry and +1 tanks is often a reasonable timing.
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What's the build order for reactor hellion into 3 CC for ZvT?
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What do you guys feel about the queen buff? I feel that Zerg hold reapers, hellions and banshee. I feel that I can not do anything earlygame... Queens pick off SCV's at bunkers so easily, they both block and range hellions so you can not kite. Also the creepspread is insane.
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EPT
