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I've been recently knocking on Master League doors and am now facing serious problem with my TvT builds. I used to always go for 1 rax no gas FE into 3 rax double gas, got good at it, but for the last 2 days I've been falling terribly to various 1 base allins. The problem isn't my lack of scouting, I pretty much always know what to expect, I simply don't know the answer. When facing 1 base allin what should I do? -Add 1 tech lab, get stim/combat shields+teching to factory and starport? -Add 1 tech lab, 2 reactors?
The allin I hate the most is cloak banshee with siege tank followup. Any ideas what to do in TvT since every TvT i play nowadays is a 1 base allin from my opponent?
Just make second CC inbase, take two gass and go for a factory and a starport. Than you just skill it out and take the macro advantage.
This is one of those mini-requests that I hate to see but in an act of hypocrisy am going to make anyway =p
Does anyone have some good replays of standard (long) Mech vZ games to share (either personal or pro (pref the latter))?
Decided to try meching (in every match up) for a while to mix things up and learn something I never learnt outside TvT, and goddamn I just die to roaches over and over despite having what I feel is reasonable harass and decent positioning/siege timings.
So far it's actually going better vs Toss haha, though I suspect that's more down to people reacting sub-optimally to seeing it.
On May 03 2012 07:17 Asha` wrote: This is one of those mini-requests that I hate to see but in an act of hypocrisy am going to make anyway =p
Does anyone have some good replays of standard (long) Mech vZ games to share (either personal or pro (pref the latter))?
Decided to try meching (in every match up) for a while to mix things up and learn something I never learnt outside TvT, and goddamn I just die to roaches over and over despite having what I feel is reasonable harass and decent positioning/siege timings.
So far it's actually going better vs Toss haha, though I suspect that's more down to people reacting sub-optimally to seeing it.
lastshadow also did some vlogs on TvZ mech.... although it only goes up to hive tech, and not what he considers lategame (early-mid game TvZ mech... he includes hive tech (when bl's come out/etc) as midgame)
You get bonerized on the scv scout. You don't check for the 2nd gas, and you don't count his pylons. Catching the 2nd gas or the fact that he hid his 2nd pylon would have helped you enormously. 2nd gas means "delayed expo or all in) which would have tipped you off.
Secondly, as soon as you scout the proxy, you begin a retreat to the high-ground. Don't salvage the bunker for this, though-- if you're already bunkered up on the lowground with walling depots like that, you're better off trying to add additional bunkers on the low ground.
An extra replacement depot anticipating the lowground depot dying would hav been good.
Your barracks (and hence tech lab) is too close to the ramp, stopping optimal bunker placement and inhibiting your concave.
Given all that happened, and the sureness that your opponent is all in off 1 base, I'd actually go for tanks behind a wall instead of quick medivacs, but honestly you could have held with the medivacs as well if your army wasnt' so cramped wandering around your sim city.
In any case, this sort of attack is much easier to hold with a 1 rax FE, since you recover from the expo more quickly. With a gasless 2rax, you sacrifice economy and it's hard to recover. Still holdable though.
What is that I see the pros do to their scvs to make it so the opponent can't attack the scvs and get blocked? I'm not sure if that's exactly what it does, but I see pros do it all the time with their scvs. They like, hit the hold position command and it causes the opponent's units to ignore the scvs or something and try to go for your offensive units, which allows the scvs to survive and block the enemy. I think that's how it works anyways.
Can anyone clarify this and explain what they're doing with their scvs and how to do it?
On May 03 2012 11:34 Hexadecimal wrote: What is that I see the pros do to their scvs to make it so the opponent can't attack the scvs and get blocked? I'm not sure if that's exactly what it does, but I see pros do it all the time with their scvs. They like, hit the hold position command and it causes the opponent's units to ignore the scvs or something and try to go for your offensive units, which allows the scvs to survive and block the enemy. I think that's how it works anyways.
Can anyone clarify this and explain what they're doing with their scvs and how to do it?
Yeah this is typically done via hold position. you could spam stop as well.
If you use Hold Position on your SCVs in such a way that your marines can't be reached, unmicroed zerglings and zealots will wander around helplessly without attacking-- they prioritize attacking units over non-combat units, even if they can't reach them. A skilled player will micro his lings to attack, however.
Question about Tank/MM in TvZ. Should I be keeping constant pressure if I open up with 3 OC? I find it hard to move out otherwise because when I do I just get swarmed by massive amounts of lings and die. Are there any suggestions/guides as to how to approach late game after opening 3 OC into TankMM?
ALSO (EDIT)
I've been having really really difficult times in TvZ. I tried opening with 3 OC into Tank/MM but I scouted a lot of Roaches so played defensively. He held off his first attack, then came at me with a lot of Banelings. I held that reasonably well, but then it just came again after he secured his third.
I ended up with more Marauders than I would have liked since I rushed to defend against Roaches, but wound up with not enough Tanks to hold the next push.
First off, you lost a bunch of mining time in the beginning by chasing the drone for no reason and scouting the north of the map for, again, no reason. Don't do that. Look for overlords with first marines, if that's what you were doing with that SCV. So you've scouted nothing and are sitting behind your wall in which is just pointless at this stage.
Building one engineering bay before a third barracks is just strange. You completely scout the roaches and his hatchery, yet you just sit in your base. On Cloud Kingdom of all maps you should take your natural and put your tank on the high ground when you get siege mode. Sitting on one base gains you nothing, you didn't see so many roaches that you couldn't defend with a bunker in your natural.
After getting +1 weapons your upgrades are idle; again, building one engineering bay at that time does not make much sense - it makes zero sense if you get +1 then do nothing with it.
You do not have enough production by the 12 minute mark; making bio off of only 2 barracks is not sufficient. This is probably one of the main reasons you failed to defend him busting your front with slow banelings. I'll reiterate that you should have put a tank on the high ground. Abuse the map!
Amusingly you wouldn't really have been far behind after the bust if you had constantly been making SCVs and made your third CC into an orbital much earlier. Didn't have anywhere near enough units, again, to defend the second bust because of the lack of production.
Build more barracks earlier, refine your upgrade timings...
Thanks! Any guides to better upgrade timings? When should I be upgrading?
Not too sure on the guides, but I always, always see pros upgrade heavily when they are certain they won't be attacked (like as a response to upgrades from their opponent or after some failed attack.) Also, I have noticed they will cancel upgrades when they are under really heavy pressure or an all in.
Also if you plan on attacking or notice you tend to pressure at the same exact time during a particular build I would recommend trying to fit an upgrade or two into the build, perhaps in place of building a unit during a specific time. Hope that helps.
On May 03 2012 11:34 Hexadecimal wrote: What is that I see the pros do to their scvs to make it so the opponent can't attack the scvs and get blocked? I'm not sure if that's exactly what it does, but I see pros do it all the time with their scvs. They like, hit the hold position command and it causes the opponent's units to ignore the scvs or something and try to go for your offensive units, which allows the scvs to survive and block the enemy. I think that's how it works anyways.
Can anyone clarify this and explain what they're doing with their scvs and how to do it?
Yeah this is typically done via hold position. you could spam stop as well.
If you use Hold Position on your SCVs in such a way that your marines can't be reached, unmicroed zerglings and zealots will wander around helplessly without attacking-- they prioritize attacking units over non-combat units, even if they can't reach them. A skilled player will micro his lings to attack, however.
Thanks for the detailed response. Cleared things up really well.
I'm meching in TvZ platinum league and having alot of success. But when I make a mistake and fall behind have a hard time getting back into the game.
What is the best way to come back from a situation where I have a 3 base economy with 7 factorys and 3 starports but my 200/200 push gets beaten bad without taking out any expansions?
I'm meching in TvZ platinum league and having alot of success. But when I make a mistake and fall behind have a hard time getting back into the game.
What is the best way to come back from a situation where I have a 3 base economy with 7 factorys and 3 starports but my 200/200 push gets beaten bad without taking out any expansions?
Thanks.
...You lose? That's what mech is about. You have to trade efficiently, or do damage. Otherwise, you just cannot remake your army fast enough.
Mech isn't bio, or marine tank, that out of 5-10 rax and 2-4 fac can make a new army of 20-40 marines and 4 tanks and 2-4 medics in a heartbeat, and actually defend.
What do you think about this strat? Can this be the new metagame, CC first? Because you can get very interesting timings using this build like 6rax as in this link.
What do you think about this strat? Can this be the new metagame, CC first? Because you can get very interesting timings using this build like 6rax as in this link.
What level do you play it? It's a build that is better against better players since it requires them to read into things like CC first, and know that you can still hold some kind of all in with heavy rax play and bunkers. That said, it requires immense scouting, and reactionary ability, and a lot of noob toss will just scout it, and go 3 gate robo, 3 gate pressure, 4 gate pressure, 4 gate warp prism, 1 base collsai push etc etc.
Yes I love the idea behind the 6 rax build. I have been doing a similar build for some time now and with great success. Unless protoss knows exactly what they are doing it is very easy to end up ahead.
It's a very dynamic play that gives you the initiative in the game.
On May 04 2012 05:54 Willzzz wrote: Yes I love the idea behind the 6 rax build. I have been doing a similar build for some time now and with great success. Unless protoss knows exactly what they are doing it is very easy to end up ahead.
It's a very dynamic play that gives you the initiative in the game.
As long as you can handle the odd ball games where protoss chronos zeal zeal stalker at your CC first and you're forced to pull scvs with the only 2 rax of marines. It can get dicey. I'm working on this build as well on maps I can't gasless into 2 base all in.
On May 04 2012 09:56 Picklebread wrote: Im curious as to what the "perfect" response would be to a Warp Prism DT opening if you open 1rax gasless expand.
lol. engineering bay immediately, save energy on your OC, build a around each mineral lines/around your rax add-ons. save up two scans, and then go kill him with your bioball.
When I 11/11, 11/12, 12/14 Rax in TvZ what decides whether I should proxy one/two of the barracks? I don't really like proxying because I feel like it's too cheesy, but at the same time I feel like if you just build 2rax in your base the zerg will scout and will defend properly.
Maka rax is viable, a lot of games the drone will miss your hidden rax say in your nat.
You don't have to proxy it very far from your base, but you need to know where overlords go so they don't see it without you noticing.
rambling now. tvp, I tried 1base 2fact react hellion allin (cut at 300 gas then pure hellions) pull all the SCVs. It beat pure stalker, SCVs helped tremendously in that, I think the only way to lose is getting walled out (but who does that pvt?) or force fielded out (undoable on some maps too) until 1base colossus can get out, but i can scout for an expansion before dropping my 2nd fact (else go into banshee)
On May 04 2012 10:04 Hexadecimal wrote: When I 11/11, 11/12, 12/14 Rax in TvZ what decides whether I should proxy one/two of the barracks? I don't really like proxying because I feel like it's too cheesy, but at the same time I feel like if you just build 2rax in your base the zerg will scout and will defend properly.
Any thoughts?
Place on edge of cliff towards their base. Lift when finished. Land on low ground. Rally over. Pressure over? Lift back into main.
Edit out mean shit. -- sorry --
Zergs can defend 2 rax even when un scouted EASILY most times, sans a few maps you can cheesy 3 bunker block, or get some sick bunker/micro and or placement and get lucky on the pathing of the building scv.
EPT
