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On May 04 2012 05:16 iAmJeffReY wrote:What level do you play it? It's a build that is better against better players since it requires them to read into things like CC first, and know that you can still hold some kind of all in with heavy rax play and bunkers. That said, it requires immense scouting, and reactionary ability, and a lot of noob toss will just scout it, and go 3 gate robo, 3 gate pressure, 4 gate pressure, 4 gate warp prism, 1 base collsai push etc etc.
I am a low master player. I havent tried out this build at ladder but it seems that you can do this build in most of the ladder maps. CC first gives you so much econ boost at the beginning. Therefore, you can come ahead at the beginning of the game.
So, is not this build better than the 1 rax gaseless expand?
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On May 04 2012 17:10 RockStarCrft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 05:16 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 04 2012 05:14 RockStarCrft wrote:Hey guys, I am having a hard time at TvP like everybody else. I want to learn your opinion about "LastShadow’s TvP 6rax Opening". You can find it here; http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-445-p3-lastshadow-s-tvp-6rax-opening-6089583What do you think about this strat? Can this be the new metagame, CC first? Because you can get very interesting timings using this build like 6rax as in this link. What level do you play it? It's a build that is better against better players since it requires them to read into things like CC first, and know that you can still hold some kind of all in with heavy rax play and bunkers. That said, it requires immense scouting, and reactionary ability, and a lot of noob toss will just scout it, and go 3 gate robo, 3 gate pressure, 4 gate pressure, 4 gate warp prism, 1 base collsai push etc etc. I am a low master player. I havent tried out this build at ladder but it seems that you can do this build in most of the ladder maps. CC first gives you so much econ boost at the beginning. Therefore, you can come ahead at the beginning of the game. So, is not this build better than the 1 rax gaseless expand?
I've played the 6 rax build around 7-10 times against diamond opponents, some thoughts:
-you really often catch opponent off guard with the marine push, dealing good damage. good vs gate-nexus-robo
-you're really safe vs 1 base plays, expect 1 base colossus felt like a bo loss ( no marauders and stim ;/)
- if he's teching behind a safe build with sentries you will end up behind and it's kind hard to make a comeback because he will have his aoe when you have medivacs out.
- I think I won most of my games
So I stopped using the build since I'm doing more than fine with the +1 marine heavy medivac timing. I feel that you're forced to do some damage in the early-mid game against protoss and it's more reliable to it with mmm timing instead of relying on your opponent not playing safe.
But feel free to try the build, it's kinda fun  , maybe you will have more success with it than me.
About 1 rax fe vs CC first
Both the 6 rax and mmm timings work a little better from CC first than 1 rax fe. At least for me. With CC first you can't screw up your build order/building placement, otherwise you will have trouble if he chronos out zealot+ stalker. Many protoss react to CC first by 4gating which is imo good, since 4 gate is a free win if you scout it and manage to wall off so he can't run around your bunkers. 1 rax expo is safer and easier to do.
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On May 04 2012 20:01 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:10 RockStarCrft wrote:On May 04 2012 05:16 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 04 2012 05:14 RockStarCrft wrote:Hey guys, I am having a hard time at TvP like everybody else. I want to learn your opinion about "LastShadow’s TvP 6rax Opening". You can find it here; http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-445-p3-lastshadow-s-tvp-6rax-opening-6089583What do you think about this strat? Can this be the new metagame, CC first? Because you can get very interesting timings using this build like 6rax as in this link. What level do you play it? It's a build that is better against better players since it requires them to read into things like CC first, and know that you can still hold some kind of all in with heavy rax play and bunkers. That said, it requires immense scouting, and reactionary ability, and a lot of noob toss will just scout it, and go 3 gate robo, 3 gate pressure, 4 gate pressure, 4 gate warp prism, 1 base collsai push etc etc. I am a low master player. I havent tried out this build at ladder but it seems that you can do this build in most of the ladder maps. CC first gives you so much econ boost at the beginning. Therefore, you can come ahead at the beginning of the game. So, is not this build better than the 1 rax gaseless expand? I've played the 6 rax build around 7-10 times against diamond opponents, some thoughts: -you really often catch opponent off guard with the marine push, dealing good damage. good vs gate-nexus-robo -you're really safe vs 1 base plays, expect 1 base colossus felt like a bo loss ( no marauders and stim ;/) - if he's teching behind a safe build with sentries you will end up behind and it's kind hard to make a comeback because he will have his aoe when you have medivacs out. - I think I won most of my games So I stopped using the build since I'm doing more than fine with the +1 marine heavy medivac timing. I feel that you're forced to do some damage in the early-mid game against protoss and it's more reliable to it with mmm timing instead of relying on your opponent not playing safe. But feel free to try the build, it's kinda fun , maybe you will have more success with it than me. About 1 rax fe vs CC first Both the 6 rax and mmm timings work a little better from CC first than 1 rax fe. At least for me. With CC first you can't screw up your build order/building placement, otherwise you will have trouble if he chronos out zealot+ stalker. Many protoss react to CC first by 4gating which is imo good, since 4 gate is a free win if you scout it and manage to wall off so he can't run around your bunkers. 1 rax expo is safer and easier to do.
I dont think you quite get the point of that build, its NOT necessarily to do direct dmg, if he is sitting on more than 2-3 sentries you did the dmg, cause hisn tech is already delayed, so push out, scan his natural and if u see enough gas units just turn around and go home, tech up and play your normal game, you are NOT behind.
If u suicide a whole bunch of army doing absolutely nothing THEN you are behind.
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On May 04 2012 21:22 Broesl wrote:
I dont think you quite get the point of that build, its NOT necessarily to do direct dmg, if he is sitting on more than 2-3 sentries you did the dmg, cause hisn tech is already delayed, so push out, scan his natural and if u see enough gas units just turn around and go home, tech up and play your normal game, you are NOT behind.
If u suicide a whole bunch of army doing absolutely nothing THEN you are behind.
Have you actually played the build or are you just repeating what day9 said in a daily ?
Opponent got gas earlier so he can afford to get couple sentries without hurting his tech as much as you're hurting yours by delaying gas for really long time. He will sure have warp gate, maybe a robo or forge and you have no nothing, both have expo, how that's not behind ? And he can lay down whatever tech he wants after your push since there's no way for you do hurt him without bio upgrades.
Anyways this is how I feel about the build, maybe I'm doing it wrong, idk. I just had less success with it than standard play so I kinda left it. I'm not saying that it's a bad build.
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On May 04 2012 20:01 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:10 RockStarCrft wrote:On May 04 2012 05:16 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 04 2012 05:14 RockStarCrft wrote:Hey guys, I am having a hard time at TvP like everybody else. I want to learn your opinion about "LastShadow’s TvP 6rax Opening". You can find it here; http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-445-p3-lastshadow-s-tvp-6rax-opening-6089583What do you think about this strat? Can this be the new metagame, CC first? Because you can get very interesting timings using this build like 6rax as in this link. What level do you play it? It's a build that is better against better players since it requires them to read into things like CC first, and know that you can still hold some kind of all in with heavy rax play and bunkers. That said, it requires immense scouting, and reactionary ability, and a lot of noob toss will just scout it, and go 3 gate robo, 3 gate pressure, 4 gate pressure, 4 gate warp prism, 1 base collsai push etc etc. I am a low master player. I havent tried out this build at ladder but it seems that you can do this build in most of the ladder maps. CC first gives you so much econ boost at the beginning. Therefore, you can come ahead at the beginning of the game. So, is not this build better than the 1 rax gaseless expand? I've played the 6 rax build around 7-10 times against diamond opponents, some thoughts: -you really often catch opponent off guard with the marine push, dealing good damage. good vs gate-nexus-robo -you're really safe vs 1 base plays, expect 1 base colossus felt like a bo loss ( no marauders and stim ;/) - if he's teching behind a safe build with sentries you will end up behind and it's kind hard to make a comeback because he will have his aoe when you have medivacs out. - I think I won most of my games So I stopped using the build since I'm doing more than fine with the +1 marine heavy medivac timing. I feel that you're forced to do some damage in the early-mid game against protoss and it's more reliable to it with mmm timing instead of relying on your opponent not playing safe. But feel free to try the build, it's kinda fun , maybe you will have more success with it than me. About 1 rax fe vs CC first Both the 6 rax and mmm timings work a little better from CC first than 1 rax fe. At least for me. With CC first you can't screw up your build order/building placement, otherwise you will have trouble if he chronos out zealot+ stalker. Many protoss react to CC first by 4gating which is imo good, since 4 gate is a free win if you scout it and manage to wall off so he can't run around your bunkers. 1 rax expo is safer and easier to do.
May i ask you what is the "+1 marine heavy medivac timing"? Is that the one Marineking using a lot? I am just wondering.
Also, I think you do not have to 6 rax always after the CC first. I did not experiment it yet but maybe 4rax after the CC first maybe a faster option to tech faster. That way you do not need to make the first marine timing attack. Just theorycrafting here but why do you need to 1 rax expand if you can CC first?
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I've seen alot of terran players use 1 cc 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger).
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups.
I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster?
Or do you use different fingers?.
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On May 04 2012 23:09 Guamshin wrote:
I've seen alot of terran players use 1 cc 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger).
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups.
I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster?
Or do you use different fingers?.
People have different kind of hands. I used a lot of hotkey setups but end up with 1-4 as army. 4-7 production, 8 workers that are moving away from harass, 9 upgrades 0harass group, defender group, obs, banshee
I had to bind scan and chrono to N instead of C because 6c is hard to press fast for me. Just get some comfy hotkeys. I find 2-3 buttons easiest to press so I put there things that need to be fast and easy to press. Think it that way.
3 amove is way easier for me than 1amove or 2amove so my a move units are in 3. Usually micro units like stalkers or marines in 2 and commandoforces in 1.
Zerg binds are very different for me. 1everything except infestor 2 infestor 3 mutalisk 4hatches 5-9hatchery 0 overseer.
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On May 04 2012 20:01 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:10 RockStarCrft wrote:On May 04 2012 05:16 iAmJeffReY wrote:On May 04 2012 05:14 RockStarCrft wrote:Hey guys, I am having a hard time at TvP like everybody else. I want to learn your opinion about "LastShadow’s TvP 6rax Opening". You can find it here; http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-445-p3-lastshadow-s-tvp-6rax-opening-6089583What do you think about this strat? Can this be the new metagame, CC first? Because you can get very interesting timings using this build like 6rax as in this link. What level do you play it? It's a build that is better against better players since it requires them to read into things like CC first, and know that you can still hold some kind of all in with heavy rax play and bunkers. That said, it requires immense scouting, and reactionary ability, and a lot of noob toss will just scout it, and go 3 gate robo, 3 gate pressure, 4 gate pressure, 4 gate warp prism, 1 base collsai push etc etc. I am a low master player. I havent tried out this build at ladder but it seems that you can do this build in most of the ladder maps. CC first gives you so much econ boost at the beginning. Therefore, you can come ahead at the beginning of the game. So, is not this build better than the 1 rax gaseless expand? Many protoss react to CC first by 4gating which is imo good, since 4 gate is a free win if you scout it and manage to wall off so he can't run around your bunkers. 1 rax expo is safer and easier to do.
You scan at about 5m always after CC first against toss? Or how you scout the 4gate?
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I think scouting the 4 Gate isnt that hard. You can keep ur scv in the base of the protoss until the 4:20 marc, sometimes u have to leave earlier, depending on chronoboost.
Things u should look for:
- how many gases does the toss have. if they have only one, it is probably that he is playing 4 Gate
- how many energy does he have on his nexus. if he has high energy on his nexus and not using it for probes it could be 4
Gate
- how many pylons does he have in his base. think there must be 3. if there are only 2 he maybe got a proxy pylon
outside his base
If the toss is taking a second gas, it also could be a 4gate but much more stalker heavy.
I think all these "reads" are only working if u have a good toss, means trying to use these reads on a silver or gold player or even plat is impossible, cause often they dont play with a BO and they dont know how to execute a 4 Gate.
Hope that helps
So long Alrac
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On May 04 2012 23:09 Guamshin wrote:
I've seen alot of terran players use 1 cc 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger).
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups.
I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster?
Or do you use different fingers?.
I use 5 for CC's, 123 for army. It works out well and is close to my hands. I'm also 6 foot and have big hands though.
On May 05 2012 00:32 NoN.Alrac wrote:
I think scouting the 4 Gate isnt that hard. You can keep ur scv in the base of the protoss until the 4:20 marc, sometimes u have to leave earlier, depending on chronoboost.
Things u should look for:
- how many gases does the toss have. if they have only one, it is probably that he is playing 4 Gate
- how many energy does he have on his nexus. if he has high energy on his nexus and not using it for probes it could be 4
Gate
- how many pylons does he have in his base. think there must be 3. if there are only 2 he maybe got a proxy pylon
outside his base
If the toss is taking a second gas, it also could be a 4gate but much more stalker heavy.
I think all these "reads" are only working if u have a good toss, means trying to use these reads on a silver or gold player or even plat is impossible, cause often they dont play with a BO and they dont know how to execute a 4 Gate.
Hope that helps
So long Alrac
even easier, or what I do, when I see high chrono and 1 gas, I gas steal for like 45-50% -> then go to natural and ebay block them. If they make zeal + stalker attack it, you can scan it almost right after it is cancelled and see if it's a nexus dropping, or a 4 gate. Easy peasy.
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On May 04 2012 21:57 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:22 Broesl wrote:
I dont think you quite get the point of that build, its NOT necessarily to do direct dmg, if he is sitting on more than 2-3 sentries you did the dmg, cause hisn tech is already delayed, so push out, scan his natural and if u see enough gas units just turn around and go home, tech up and play your normal game, you are NOT behind.
If u suicide a whole bunch of army doing absolutely nothing THEN you are behind.
Have you actually played the build or are you just repeating what day9 said in a daily ? Opponent got gas earlier so he can afford to get couple sentries without hurting his tech as much as you're hurting yours by delaying gas for really long time. He will sure have warp gate, maybe a robo or forge and you have no nothing, both have expo, how that's not behind ? And he can lay down whatever tech he wants after your push since there's no way for you do hurt him without bio upgrades. Anyways this is how I feel about the build, maybe I'm doing it wrong, idk. I just had less success with it than standard play so I kinda left it. I'm not saying that it's a bad build.
Ofc i played it, i play at a good mid master level, and the build does work, u just have to follow up right and dont push if u see a lot of sentries cause then ur just banking on ur opponent making a mistake. If u just take all ur marines and go home ur fine. ofc u need to take gas as you push out and then i would go for a 3rd CC, double ebay and tech to medivacs, if u play it right, you are just fine. The only thing that can really threaten you would be a really fast colossus push, but thats never gonna happen if he has sentries, so if he lacks early defense because he techs hard you should be able to do immense amounts of dmg or just kill him.
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Sup guys, I recently started to play as Terran and I do 1 rax FE in every MU.
In TvP I usually go for 2 more rax and normal tech with double ebay and quick 3rd.
But other matchups are not so clear for me and I'm looking for some cute transitions, both mech and bio 
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On May 05 2012 01:34 CDR wrote:Sup guys, I recently started to play as Terran and I do 1 rax FE in every MU. In TvP I usually go for 2 more rax and normal tech with double ebay and quick 3rd. But other matchups are not so clear for me and I'm looking for some cute transitions, both mech and bio
In TvZ you can go for double gas right after into reactor hellions and then go from there, either bio or mech with an optional quick 3rd OC.
10 Depot
12 Rax
16 Marine
17 OC (after your 16th scv finished)
17 CC
17 Depot
17 Gas, Gas ( you can go gas, gas after marine and scv at 19 if u want)
SCV
Marine
...
At 100 Gas Fac and at 50 Gas Reac on rax and switch just like any reactor hellion before expand build.
From there you can add another CC in your main and then Raxes, Facs whichever unit comp u wanna play, you can also go into banshee after hellions, you just go starport right after fac, techlab onrax for port and so on ...
In TvT you can either go 3rax into medivacs like tvp, but its a little safer to go into double gas, get a fast siege tank and a viking, that way you can hold off anything basically, and from there you can follow up with bio as well as mech.
It is bascially the same build as in tvz but you go fac at 100gas, reactor on rax at 50 more for a little more marine production and then starport and techlab on fac for siege tank ( plus optional fast siege mode) and a viking or even a quick techlab for a raven for later or even a banshee if u scan at 6:20 and see that you dont have to be worried about a banshee of ur opp.
gl
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On May 05 2012 01:34 CDR wrote:Sup guys, I recently started to play as Terran and I do 1 rax FE in every MU. In TvP I usually go for 2 more rax and normal tech with double ebay and quick 3rd. But other matchups are not so clear for me and I'm looking for some cute transitions, both mech and bio
In TvZ i like to do a timing attack with Marines and Combat Shield at the 8 Minute mark to shut down an early 3rd and clear the creep for my follow up push at 11 Minutes. You just play the normal 1 Rax fe build and add 2 more Barracks, then build 2 Gas, build a TL as soon as you have the gas, then you will have 100 Gas to start Combat Shield. It will finish at 8 Minutes and leaves you with ~ 20 Marines at that time. During i build up my first push i start my factory, my ebay and a starport to produce tanks and medivacs and get my upgrades going for another timing push between 11-12 Minutes with 3 Tanks and 2 Medivacs and a bunch of Marines with Stim and Combat Shield.
In TvT i just macro up to 3 Rax (2 w reactor, 1 w teachlab) 1 factory w techlab and 1 naked Starport and produce units nonstop. Whenever i can i try to get the edge in upgrades or in expandtions.
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Didnt get the answer i wanted so i ask again.
I've seen alot of terran players use 1 cc 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger).
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups.
I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster?
Or do you use different fingers?.
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On May 06 2012 23:35 Guamshin wrote:
Didnt get the answer i wanted so i ask again.
I've seen alot of terran players use 1 cc 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger).
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups.
I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster?
Or do you use different fingers?.
I've seen alot of protoss players use 1 nexus 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger).
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups.
I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster?
Or do you use different fingers?.
Quoted from protoss thread. Name a few terrans you see do this. You're just asking arbitrarily about your own hotkeys, it seems.
I've seen alot of protoss players use 1 nexus 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger).
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups.
I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster?
Or do you use different fingers?.
Quoted TWICE from the protoss thread, once from the T thread, with a zerg icon. Hmmm? Go ask in simple questions, simple answers, dude.
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I just met a ridiculously cheesy build, 1 base 3 gate robo dt drop only making 1 stalker until he drops dts.
I scouted bad this game, I knew he was going for something with a council - had a full walloff at my natural with turret (my build of choice was gasless fe).
Just as I start to wonder about his timing being too late for B stalkers I scanned again and saw a shrine I knew he was going for dts.. I then build a turret in my main slightly later since I didn't saw the robo. I saw it in game but it didn't properly process through my head since I was like omg fuck dt cheese and I want to know the correct reaction against a protoss who's any good and hides the robo.
So, protoss who does a DT build which you had scouted, should you build a turret in your main? I feel I can be behind allot if I build more then 1 turret when he decides to transition into an expansion playing zealot archon with his gimicky DT build.
Replay: http://drop.sc/173846
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On May 07 2012 03:43 Bojas wrote:I just met a ridiculously cheesy build, 1 base 3 gate robo dt drop only making 1 stalker until he drops dts. I scouted bad this game, I knew he was going for something with a council - had a full walloff at my natural with turret (my build of choice was gasless fe). Just as I start to wonder about his timing being too late for B stalkers I scanned again and saw a shrine I knew he was going for dts.. I then build a turret in my main slightly later since I didn't saw the robo. I saw it in game but it didn't properly process through my head since I was like omg fuck dt cheese and I want to know the correct reaction against a protoss who's any good and hides the robo. So, protoss who does a DT build which you had scouted, should you build a turret in your main? I feel I can be behind allot if I build more then 1 turret when he decides to transition into an expansion playing zealot archon with his gimicky DT build. Replay: http://drop.sc/173846
the drop comes alot later then normal 1 base dt timings. if u see the dt shrine and its later then normal then a turrets in ur main are the answer. u should have saved a ton of scans either way
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Hello can someone give me a bo for a fast 3rd cc after going 1 Rax Expo(gasless)
I didnt want to open a new thread for it
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On May 07 2012 08:02 daft21 wrote:
Hello can someone give me a bo for a fast 3rd cc after going 1 Rax Expo(gasless)
I didnt want to open a new thread for it
Day9 did a daily about this you can find it here. I hope that is what you were looking for
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EPT
