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As a high master (1200) I have alot of problems in TvZ lately. Am I the only one? Alot of zergs are taking a very greedy third, followed up by roaches. I open nogas 1 rax FE into 2 gas reactor hellion. From there on I tried alot:
- fast third with fast grades for a 14:00 2-2 push
- +2 rax, tech to medivac, so a 10:00 hellion rine medivac push
- +2 rax hellion marauder "allin".
- tank rine pushes (11:00)
Fast third with fast grades for a 14:00 2-2 push
This is pretty strong but most zergs get broodlords out in time. Another problem are runby's. When broodlords are out I feel I trade very cost inefficient. I tried everything:
- thor + viking: I split my vikings, but the corruptor count always gets too high, and my tanks just die, so infestors get free reign.
- ghosts: after the nerf I always lose when I make them. Broodlords just die so slowly from the snipes. If I am lucky I can cloack and kill, but most zergs add detection.
- mass drops: this is working very well, but at the end the zerg reaches my production, and then it's over. Their push comes and I can't deal with it.
+2 rax, tech to medivac, so a 10:00 hellion rine medivac push
If I am lucky my opponent doesn't make banelings and has a low unit count, so my push is effective. The main problem with this are late upgrades, a late third (10:00) and a low tank count. Even if I do good damage, I feel it takes a long time before I can push again (since it takes some time to get a tankcount up, and pushing with a grade disadvantage doesnt really work that well). Meanwhile the zerg can continue grading, and they can easily take 2 extra expansion.
+2 rax hellion marauder "allin".
If my opponent makes units, then I lose, so I feel it's a pure gamble. Even 3 base zergs hold it, and after it they got so much time to double expo again. I have:
- low tank count
- late grades
- late third (10:00)
tank rine pushes (11:00)
These work wonders if my opponent again doesn't make units, but again: late third, late grades. Mass speedling is very strong vs it, and if zerg can make you siege pretty early, you will do almost no damage, since you have to slowpush it. By the time you reach a base, they overwelm you.
Conclusion:
I feel zergs can stop any push if they are not greedy, especially if the terran doesn't have the GODmicro (like me  ). If I want to do a strong early push, I can't make a fast third, and I can't double grade. If they stop it, they have a certain timing where they can mass tech, drone and expand, and prepare to hold my next attack.
I feel like it's a race against the time, since broodlord infestor is so damn cost efficiënt (check polt vs nerchio).
Drops are great, but not when the zerg put up enough spines.
I feel that every zerg can micro as good as nestea (lets admit it, zerg micro is not hard at all). The problem is that I need excellent micro to trade cost efficiënt. I tried hours of marinesplitting (morrow's version) and other micro maps (darglein micro map). I can't get my micro on the level that is needed .
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Thank you for all the answers so far, they've been very helpful. I still have two questions:
1) If they go ultras and you went marine/tank, how do you tech switch to marauder when you have reactors on all your barracks? It seems to me that by the time it's late game my main's SimCity has no room for me to lift up my barracks and add tech labs. Any thoughts?
2) Lately I've noticed that after I have 3 bases or more that I no longer have room in my main for additional production buildings. Is this normal or should I be working on better SimCity? Usually I have 6 barracks 2 factories 1 starport 2 Eng. Bays 1 Armory in my main. Eventually I max out my army and float minerals/gas and want to invest this into more production buildings so that when I trade armies I can reinforce very fast.
Basically my question is: Once I max out my army and start floating income, where should I build my production buildings for a faster reinforce? I find my main is too full for me to build there, same with my natural. If I make the buildings elsewhere(outside the wall of my natural, at my third, etc) then they are VERY open to counter attacks which the Zerg usually takes advantage of.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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@snowbear
It really isn't a race against time, check out any number of pro games (including a few by Polt) where terrans easily deal with broodlord infestor by out manoeuvring it. I mean zerg can just push your main production, but really terran is pretty strong in a base trade situation.
Mind you I have pretty good success against any sort of early third with a fast marine/hellion/tank timing. It will delay my third and upgrades, but it very often outright kills many master zergs. The combination of hellion/tank gives amazing ground splash damage which utterly destroys any sort of ling based army, especially if you are fighting near a ramp.
The hellions mean that you rarely have to slow push, they can scout around your army in all directions, searching for flanks etc. and giving advance warning. They can also deny the zerg advance warning of your incoming attack.
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On April 16 2012 07:46 Willzzz wrote:
@snowbear
It really isn't a race against time, check out any number of pro games (including a few by Polt) where terrans easily deal with broodlord infestor by out manoeuvring it. I mean zerg can just push your main production, but really terran is pretty strong in a base trade situation.
Mind you I have pretty good success against any sort of early third with a fast marine/hellion/tank timing. It will delay my third and upgrades, but it very often outright kills many master zergs. The combination of hellion/tank gives amazing ground splash damage which utterly destroys any sort of ling based army, especially if you are fighting near a ramp.
The hellions mean that you rarely have to slow push, they can scout around your army in all directions, searching for flanks etc. and giving advance warning. They can also deny the zerg advance warning of your incoming attack.
Thanks for your tips. I don't agree tough on the base trade comment: with infestors and broodlords, it's really hard to win a base trade as terran. You can't kill that army with marine tank.
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I know I posted on the last page as well but I just played two TvPs against the same guy and lost both and am not sure how again.
Game 1:
He goes blink stalker, I defend pretty well, don't think I lose too many SCVs, get stim up, he does snipe my medivacs as they come out though and this leads me to miss my timing to kill him I think. Go to his natural he has expo'd, but with lots of sentries to defend. Then he just gets a bunch of colossus and rolls me over.
http://drop.sc/160659
Game 2:
Same guy, one game later, I open 2 rax again, thinking he'd try the same build, so I could be more aggressive as he got blink out. Turns out he isn't and has an immortal and a bunch of sentries which shuts down my aggression again. He then goes for a colossus all-in that completely wrecks me. No way to have vikings out in time or anything. Don't know if I could have stopped this with anything
http://drop.sc/160658
I don't think I had a major macro slip in either game.
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Is it possible to go double armory against Protoss while meching? Or is it too greedy? My general opener is 1 rax gasless FE into double gas. Will have 2 bunkers full of marines + about 4-6 hellions if Protoss does some early aggression after expo.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On April 16 2012 08:04 S_SienZ wrote:
Is it possible to go double armory against Protoss while meching? Or is it too greedy? My general opener is 1 rax gasless FE into double gas. Will have 2 bunkers full of marines + about 4-6 hellions if Protoss does some early aggression after expo.
I would strongly advice against double armory against Protoss when going mech, as your gas will be very dear to you. Mech in general against Protoss is a very iffy deal to begin with, and draining your vital gas for armor upgrades is unwise.
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If they have a really eng game army of infestor/broodlord and corrupter then yes it is very very hard to deal with, but that combo is pretty expensive to make. You do need to be hitting them while they are teching to make sure that their broodlord army isn't too well supported.
I think one of the big troubles with fighting zerg is that it is so hard to get a handle on when they are weak. Are they droning or making units, generally it's hard to tell until too late.
I think one of the key things is avoiding the slow push stage. Look at ways the pros find to get their armies into position safely. Distract your opponent with a drop/banshee/hellions/nuke and then use that time to sneak your main army right into their face.
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In TvZ, how do you decide whether to expand on the low ground? In particular I'm interested in how this works with reactor hellion expand, where I have only 2 marines until the first hellion pair pops out (~5:30). In my experience, lings are checking out my nat by ~5:00 (with a 14 gas pool or 15 hatch).
I see low ground expands on pro streams quite often. Are they just gambling that Z isn't going to make more than 2-4 lings? Or is it that they are okay if Z slows down the low ground expand, because Z has lost eco by building so many early lings?
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On April 16 2012 13:10 cluck wrote:
In TvZ, how do you decide whether to expand on the low ground? In particular I'm interested in how this works with reactor hellion expand, where I have only 2 marines until the first hellion pair pops out (~5:30). In my experience, lings are checking out my nat by ~5:00 (with a 14 gas pool or 15 hatch).
I see low ground expands on pro streams quite often. Are they just gambling that Z isn't going to make more than 2-4 lings? Or is it that they are okay if Z slows down the low ground expand, because Z has lost eco by building so many early lings?
2 marines can beat 2-4 lings especially since you can use an scv to buffer
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Game 2: Same guy, one game later, I open 2 rax again, thinking he'd try the same build, so I could be more aggressive as he got blink out. Turns out he isn't and has an immortal and a bunch of sentries which shuts down my aggression again. He then goes for a colossus all-in that completely wrecks me. No way to have vikings out in time or anything. Don't know if I could have stopped this with anything http://drop.sc/160658I don't think I had a major macro slip in either game.
12:17, the game ends in the next 30 seconds.
You are on 2 base and he is on one.
You have 42 harvestors and he has 28.
You are ahead in POP by 8.
Now is the big fight.
He has a bigger army than you. Not huge but bigger and he left nothing behind and took his whole army to your door. (Trying to sneak in through the rocks)
His army is worth 3100 and yours is 2550, you have +1 weapons on the way and he didn't even build a forge.
So how does this fight play out?
You are on the high ground surrounding a bunker and you send 1 marine out to scout.
You leave the high ground and split your army. You leave behind 5 marines, a maurader and a bunker, stim and run to low ground to attack. He killed your rocks and backed off baiting you into his larger army. He has 2 collosi and you are exclusively bio so I can imagine if keeps those collosi safe he is loving his odds.
So we are at 12:36 and you are going to lose in the next 11 seconds. I have done this before myself.
If you were zerg I would say you overdroned and made poor attack decisions... (I usually play zerg.) But you're terran and I don't know why you thought you had to run into that army.... You could have just took off with your command center and flew it back to base and maybe took that south position and forced play around your bunkers. You could have reinforced faster and held vrs that assualt and what does he have to follow that assualt? He has to expand... you can just land your OC somewhere and even if its in your main it still can produce mules and scans and keep you ahead...
TLDR: You did not have to stim and run some your army into his entire army. You had other options.
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How should I be splitting my marines?
I've had people recommend the patrol command, but then others say the patrol command doesn't work against speedling/it isn't very viable.
Should I be be splitting my marines by right clicking or the patrol command? I've heard people recommend both methods. I've used the patrol command for awhile now, but I find that it doesn't really work in a real game scenario. Any thoughts?
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On April 16 2012 14:41 Hexadecimal wrote:
How should I be splitting my marines?
I've had people recommend the patrol command, but then others say the patrol command doesn't work against speedling/it isn't very viable.
Should I be be splitting my marines by right clicking or the patrol command? I've heard people recommend both methods. I've used the patrol command for awhile now, but I find that it doesn't really work in a real game scenario. Any thoughts?
Personally I use box+right click as the patrol seems gimicky sometimes and only works if the enemy isnt super close...(IE you just looked away and suddenly the banelings are on top of you - patrol aint gonna do shit here)
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box click is the hardest to learn but the best i find
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On April 16 2012 13:10 cluck wrote:
In TvZ, how do you decide whether to expand on the low ground? In particular I'm interested in how this works with reactor hellion expand, where I have only 2 marines until the first hellion pair pops out (~5:30). In my experience, lings are checking out my nat by ~5:00 (with a 14 gas pool or 15 hatch).
I see low ground expands on pro streams quite often. Are they just gambling that Z isn't going to make more than 2-4 lings? Or is it that they are okay if Z slows down the low ground expand, because Z has lost eco by building so many early lings?
i only expand on the low ground if i see the zerg go hatch first otherwise a just build my CC on the high ground. If the zerg go hatch first with a bunker @ 4:10 and you should be really save against early lings.
Thats how i handle this.
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I have a question Why do pros Wait for @300 Minerals to get their double rax after expanding? Is it better for timings or economy? Because after 1 rax expo I immediately make barracks when i have the money
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On April 16 2012 19:55 Ace1123 wrote:
I have a question Why do pros Wait for @300 Minerals to get their double rax after expanding? Is it better for timings or economy? Because after 1 rax expo I immediately make barracks when i have the money
you can constantly built scvs and rax/gas etc without cutting scvs or delaying supply depots, thats why they wait i guess. + ur marines will come out at the same time, can be helpful as well.
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Hi guys. Would you mind watching this replay with me? I was on quite a roll with this TvP, I was ahead in some aspects, behind in tech maybe. Anyway, I dropped him with 8 rauders and took out two of his Forges and lost all of my army. I retreat my remaining medivacs to my natural and try to hold. It kind of works, he comes on the choke, I snipe his Colossi with my Vikings but his infantry overpowers mine, even though I have medivacs and a bunker on top of the ramp. Then he even almost finishes +2+2. Hella weird he has the money for so much infantry and those forges + upgrades as well as colossi. What am I not seeing in this game? Did I lose because I lost so much army for nothing while dropping? It was a grave mistake, but didn't seem all that bad in hind sight.
Replay:
http://drop.sc/160940
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On April 16 2012 14:41 Hexadecimal wrote:
How should I be splitting my marines?
I've had people recommend the patrol command, but then others say the patrol command doesn't work against speedling/it isn't very viable.
Should I be be splitting my marines by right clicking or the patrol command? I've heard people recommend both methods. I've used the patrol command for awhile now, but I find that it doesn't really work in a real game scenario. Any thoughts?
It's definitely best to manualy split with boxing group of units and moving them apart, this is however the hardest style aswell. I would however advice you to start doing it so you get used to it. You can also try out some custom maps involving marinesplitting. 
Cheers
Dan
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On April 13 2012 19:11 saaaa wrote:
i play 2 different builds in TvZ with Mech. The first one is the No Gas FE -> 2 Fac BF Hellion+ 2 Armory into fast 3rd from MKP and the second one is no gas fe -> reactor hellion FE+Cloak Banshee.
What should i prefer and on which maps? I mean should i take the risk to just kill him with my 10 BF Hellion attack and even it not i have 6 factories pumping double upgraded mech units. Or should i go and use the cloak banshee to maybe do some eco damage (force spores and pick some drones/queens) and deny him his 3rd until he have overseer/mutas? But i don't have the gas to go so fast double upgrades.
I dont know what is more worth it. What should i prefer and on what maps?
anyone?
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EPT
