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On March 26 2012 03:04 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 03:02 padfoota wrote:
regarding tvt, when both sides are maxed out in bio tank, full upgrades on bio and some upgrades for tanks, turret+radar everywhere to prevent drops, bases everywhere....How do you break a siege line? This is a rather small map, not Tal Darim style so no attacking other direction. Im talking the Maginot Line here. I gave up a game against a friend by trying to break the line with everything + scv..but no dice. He suggests tech switching but with no upgrades. Thors arent gonna do shit against a mass bio army, and BC/ Banshees arent that great considering 0/0, so Im thinking maybe...Nukes? Are nukes viable? Launch, force retreat, move up set tanks, cancel.. repeat? Since its a small map I doubt it needs more than 5? when you're dividing maps by half, you need to start getting air support, and going bc's and ravens to break tank lines but also keep making rax's nukes are good too
I totally agree with nukes being good, and as mentioned it doesnt always have to break the line itself.. either you force a complete unsiege or atleast a couple of them. In the first circumstance you can stim in and deal heavy damage, while in the second one you are gaining territory. Just make sure to move up tanks to cover the new area.. without tanks you cant really gain the new early as he can slowly crawl towards you and take it back again.
A slight sidenote: I tend to always use nukes vs meching players.
Cheers
Dan
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On March 23 2012 07:36 Marathi wrote:
Hi guys,
Couple of questions about TvT gas first banshee expand
Is cloak optional, or is it heavily looked down upon if you go for it. I'm just the kind of person who likes free wins if people forget detection. Although going for it would delay your expo somewhat.
How do people feel about going with 8 marines instead of 4 hellions as a push. I know hellions are good dps vs marines, but if you take marines and he moves his marines from the front of his base to attack the banshee, your marines could dps down a bunker/supply depot in the meantime. It's something I've not tried, just throwing it out there.
thanks
can someone give me some advice on this please  ))
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Hi TL
Normally, i lack in terms of scouting protoss, especially the colossus tech. So, as if i'm 100% sure toss goes colo i have to build vikings like crazy. In 90% of the cases, my viking count don't even comes close to handle the colossus count. Colo comes up at around 12 minutes. At this time i am on 2 bases and build mainly marines, marauders and a few medivacs.
Is it a good idea to start viking production only?
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What do you think about the Thor+Hellion (double upgrades) with MMM support (only stim, combat) would beat the scary roach only vs. mech ins TvZ?
And i think that pure Tank+Hellion with double upgrades with Ghosts is a really nice unit composition? What do you think about this?
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On March 26 2012 06:01 Striker.superfreunde wrote:Hi TL Normally, i lack in terms of scouting protoss, especially the colossus tech. So, as if i'm 100% sure toss goes colo i have to build vikings like crazy. In 90% of the cases, my viking count don't even comes close to handle the colossus count. Colo comes up at around 12 minutes. At this time i am on 2 bases and build mainly marines, marauders and a few medivacs. Is it a good idea to start viking production only?
In short, no.
Something that is helpful to deal with collossi is to make around 4 medis at minimum. If you spot 2 robos or something crazy only get 2. Once you spot that support bay, throw down a second starport and power vikings. I forget the ratio for collossi to vikings but I think it's 8 to start, with 2 more for every collossus after that, with a maximum of 14. (at that point, colssus get one hit)
Be careful of a templar tech switch though, so don't forget to get a ghost academy if you spot it.
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Wow, thank you!
I can't believe that pushing medivacs is more revarding than building vikings.
Every game i scouted colo/s (too late) i started viking production. But i couldn't keep up with his colo count. Or too late,... storm.
14 is way to much for me. I`m not able to pull out those numbers only on vikings in gold league.
Sorry for my baaad english! can't explain it to myself! :p
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On March 26 2012 02:49 lordofsoup wrote:
Hey I was wondering what the best way to counter HT's in TvP is? Storm rips through my army like no other, and if the protoss has any micro at all they can hit my army with 3 or 4 HT's. I am watching MKP vs Parting right now and it seams to me that MKP has the same issue. He routinely destroys Partings army, but Parting stays in the game with a couple well placed storms from the high ground, which completely destroy MKP's army. I am no where near the ability of MKP and he seems to have trouble with them what can i do? I understand that snipe and emp deals with them well, but ghosts are way more expensive than HT, and a couple of HT's can stop a base trade.
Against defensive HTs, if you don't have Ghosts left, stim forward a small group of at least 4 Marauders to two-shot High Templars, forcing them to Storm your small group instead of your army. But, anyway, sometimes you simply have to go back, because overextending against warp-ins is a sure way to throw away a possible advantage.
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On March 26 2012 05:33 Marathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 07:36 Marathi wrote:
Hi guys,
Couple of questions about TvT gas first banshee expand
Is cloak optional, or is it heavily looked down upon if you go for it. I'm just the kind of person who likes free wins if people forget detection. Although going for it would delay your expo somewhat. can someone give me some advice on this please ))
Basically, with gas first, the purpose is to have a faster Banshee. If you stay on one gas, you don't get Cloak; you only use your Banshee to scout/harass while quickly expanding. If you want to get Cloak (at least before starting the first Banshee), you have to take an early second gas, and I'm not sure you will have real benefits compared to a Barracks first Cloaked Banshee build.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 26 2012 05:33 Marathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 07:36 Marathi wrote:
Hi guys,
Couple of questions about TvT gas first banshee expand
Is cloak optional, or is it heavily looked down upon if you go for it. I'm just the kind of person who likes free wins if people forget detection. Although going for it would delay your expo somewhat.
How do people feel about going with 8 marines instead of 4 hellions as a push. I know hellions are good dps vs marines, but if you take marines and he moves his marines from the front of his base to attack the banshee, your marines could dps down a bunker/supply depot in the meantime. It's something I've not tried, just throwing it out there.
thanks can someone give me some advice on this please ))
Regarding banshee rush in TvT: Cloak is really good. When I'm going for some sort of 2-gas play with a quick banshee, I always START cloak. That being said, if I see my opponent getting quick detection, I just cancel the cloak. It's not as good as not getting cloak to begin with, but being able to force a few scans out of a fast expanding opponent will hurt his economic boost and sometimes, yes, you will get free wins. As a general rule, get cloak, but don't be afraid to cancel it-- this will let you start your siege mode more quickly and make your tank all-in follow-up more effective.
Pushing with 4 hellions: this is pretty strong if you have the hellions anyways and he doesn't have a bunker. It's also good on maps like Metalopolis where you can't wall easily, if your opponent FEs to the lowground you may get some scvs. I'd only go for this sort of hellion play though if you plan on using hellions later on-- if he has a bunker/wall you'll have to back off, and you don't want them to be useless. Good for full mech plans.
On March 26 2012 07:29 saaaa wrote:
What do you think about the Thor+Hellion (double upgrades) with MMM support (only stim, combat) would beat the scary roach only vs. mech ins TvZ?
And i think that pure Tank+Hellion with double upgrades with Ghosts is a really nice unit composition? What do you think about this?
If you like full mech and you're worried about roaches, you're best off mixing in tanks instead of M+M+M. The reason for this is that tanks will share upgrades with your other mech units, and they make out of factories just like thors, so if he starts making mutas you're in a good position to make lots of thors. Ideal full mech composition early on is hellion/thor with tanks to fight roaches, infestors, and other ground based nuisances.
Regarding full mech using ghosts for AA, I don't actually like it that much. I also don't think double upgrades are super valuable for full mech. The armor upgrades are nice, but a lot of the time it's better to just have only attack upgrades and have an extra couple of tank/thors. You're relying typically on "critical mass" of your splash damage units to utterly destroy him before armor matters. Against Infestors, Roaches, and other typical zerg responses, armor matters less as well.
I think Ghosts are really only a good idea if you see your opponent making lots of infestors. Their usefulness is limited nowadays against zerg T3, but they're very useful against infestors. I wouldn't worry about it too much until you get your third base up with full mech though. Thors should provide you with plentiful AA (unless there's a very surprising muta switch) and tanks can deal with the earlier, smaller infestor counts pretty easily.
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On March 23 2012 07:36 Marathi wrote:
Hi guys,
Couple of questions about TvT gas first banshee expand
Is cloak optional, or is it heavily looked down upon if you go for it. I'm just the kind of person who likes free wins if people forget detection. Although going for it would delay your expo somewhat.
How do people feel about going with 8 marines instead of 4 hellions as a push. I know hellions are good dps vs marines, but if you take marines and he moves his marines from the front of his base to attack the banshee, your marines could dps down a bunker/supply depot in the meantime. It's something I've not tried, just throwing it out there.
thanks
I can give you my opinion on the first point. You should go with cloak if you are going gas first.
Ofc it does delay you expo a little bit, but cloak is mostly gas and you might catch your opponent of guard with a cloaked banshee.
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On March 25 2012 10:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
in TvP, if you are doing a 1 rax fe, and your opponent is doing a forge fast expand, is it viable double expand instead of single expanding? I see zergs do this in response to a ffe and I was wondering if Terran could do it too.
A strong 2 base push is really hard for Toss to deal with, especially if you do the "2-2-2".
I like to do a marauder expand if the toss goes for a FFE. You can pressure the toss really hard with 2 Marauders and a marine.
But I don't think you run into many forge fast expands right?
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On March 26 2012 07:29 saaaa wrote:
What do you think about the Thor+Hellion (double upgrades) with MMM support (only stim, combat) would beat the scary roach only vs. mech ins TvZ?
And i think that pure Tank+Hellion with double upgrades with Ghosts is a really nice unit composition? What do you think about this?
If you like full mech and you're worried about roaches, you're best off mixing in tanks instead of M+M+M. The reason for this is that tanks will share upgrades with your other mech units, and they make out of factories just like thors, so if he starts making mutas you're in a good position to make lots of thors. Ideal full mech composition early on is hellion/thor with tanks to fight roaches, infestors, and other ground based nuisances.
Regarding full mech using ghosts for AA, I don't actually like it that much. I also don't think double upgrades are super valuable for full mech. The armor upgrades are nice, but a lot of the time it's better to just have only attack upgrades and have an extra couple of tank/thors. You're relying typically on "critical mass" of your splash damage units to utterly destroy him before armor matters. Against Infestors, Roaches, and other typical zerg responses, armor matters less as well.
I think Ghosts are really only a good idea if you see your opponent making lots of infestors. Their usefulness is limited nowadays against zerg T3, but they're very useful against infestors. I wouldn't worry about it too much until you get your third base up with full mech though. Thors should provide you with plentiful AA (unless there's a very surprising muta switch) and tanks can deal with the earlier, smaller infestor counts pretty easily.
Yeah but my idea was that the thors early in a mech army are just for air defence, because they suck against lings and roaches in big numbers. The zerg can easily trade with your early mech army so efficiently. and they "block" the tank production. I think that the best ground to ground army is hellion+tanks or is it just thor+hellion?
Tank+Hellion deals really easily with all army compositions on the ground.
I saw a game of Mvp where he tried it but i was shutdown by a early aggression so i can't see the complete build unfortunetly.
About the 2 armory play:
yeah you are right it wasn't not the normal gameplay with 2 armory but the last matches i watched I see more and more that terran go for double mech upgrade and its really strong even if you must disclaim on some tanks. MarineKing did it against DRG on Dual Sight and killed him quit easily with early 2 Armory you are on 3/3 before the 20 min mark and thats insane. Thorzain did it as well in all his mech games.
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thanks for the responses guys, I'll play around with a fast second gas and cloak and see if it feels too all-inny or not and see how much it delays the expo
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when doing medvac drops, is it better to try and snipe tech structures or simply go for drones/probes?
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On March 27 2012 09:14 Chooski wrote:
when doing medvac drops, is it better to try and snipe tech structures or simply go for drones/probes?
situational
if you don't have much time before their forces come, then probably a drone or two and lift up and go (or a queen)
if the forces are preoccupied with another drop or a push you're doing, then most likely tech structure _if you can_
... basically whatever you can get away with...without losing your drop.
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On March 27 2012 09:14 Chooski wrote:
when doing medvac drops, is it better to try and snipe tech structures or simply go for drones/probes?
Depends on the situation, but I'd say: kill workers until the opponent reacts and pulls them away, then try to destroy whatever you can within the given time.
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On March 27 2012 09:14 Chooski wrote:
when doing medvac drops, is it better to try and snipe tech structures or simply go for drones/probes?
It depends on the situation. If there is a an extremely important tech building, like an infestation pit, spire, or templar archives, than that should be the priority. If there is a spawning pool or cybernetics core, you should go for probes unless you are planning to push immediately after the destruction of the lesser tech building.
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TvP question. When going for a strong midgame play, preferably with heavy medivac drop focus, is it OK to go 1 rax expo into 3 rax + starport, then add rax 4 and 5 to pressure with before third, or drop the third CC before rax 4 and 5. Does the prior kill my economy too much for mid-late game? Does the latter forfeit too much aggressive drop potential? In other words, I'm trying to go for a tempo based midgame into a macrogame whereas currently i find myself playing far too passively [usually 0 drops] then getting rolled by the deathball lategame. suggestions? BOs?
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On March 27 2012 09:49 Sajaki wrote:
TvP question. When going for a strong midgame play, preferably with heavy medivac drop focus, is it OK to go 1 rax expo into 3 rax + starport, then add rax 4 and 5 to pressure with before third?
Yes. Generally, the Protoss will also be forced to delay his own third, because otherwise he will be overwhelmed by attack/drop threats, while you can land your third before him if you successfully contain him. I think I can provide some replays of this style (1250 points Master on Europe) if you're interested.
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On March 27 2012 10:05 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 09:49 Sajaki wrote:
TvP question. When going for a strong midgame play, preferably with heavy medivac drop focus, is it OK to go 1 rax expo into 3 rax + starport, then add rax 4 and 5 to pressure with before third? Yes. Generally, the Protoss will also be forced to delay his own third, because otherwise he will be overwhelmed by attack/drop threats, while you can land your third before him if you successfully contain him. I think I can provide some replays of this style (1250 points Master on Europe) if you're interested.
Very much so that would be awesome :D!
My biggest weakness vs Toss (and i think in general) is that i never ever drop... I need to force myself to learn this essential terran skill.
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EPT
