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On March 24 2012 14:09 halpimcat wrote:I've had recent success with Thorzain's mass marine build in TvT, where you FE and get quick +1 attack, stim, and combat shields with 2 medivacs to gain control ASAP. However, I've been beaten time and time again with 1 base tank/marine/air pushes as I just don't have the marine count to stop it at the 9 minute mark. Is this just a build order loss, or is there anything I could do to counter? Here is the replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/()ekisliefvirj_vs_()halpimcat/18927And the reason I scouted early is because I was playing vs random.
I think it's just a hard matchup for 1rax FE. Because you are going for medivacs before you put any/much pressure on, this gives him time to get siege tanks and siege mode if that is what he is already planning to go for, which imo makes early 1base tank pushes really hard to deal with when you 1rax FE.
Your best bet is counter attacking once he has setup his contain on you, with drops which will hopefully force his contain to retreat or at least stop/delay reinforcements which will make it easier to break.
I was having similar problems in this matchup going 1rax FE into MMM where I would lose really early to 1base tank play, which is now I am looking at gas first banshee expand into MMM as you can mess up his workers with the banshee and force him to tech into an eBay and/or Starport when it might not be what he wanted.
I'm only a Silver player myself, but looking at the replay the clear mistakes you made to me where:
Stim was late, if you are definitely 100% getting stim you should get it before shield due to its longer research time
The exchange, even though he has air you should use your high ground, if he miss micro's his banshee they will die fast to your marines and then he loses his vision and you can use your high ground to your advantage. You just straight up ran into siege tanks when you didnt need to.
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What is the most solid TvT build in your opinion? need one single ladder build, tried thorzains TvT but its pretty vulnurable to banshes and fast siege pushes i think?
edit: lol should have read the post above me
Thanks
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215 Posts
On March 24 2012 19:53 Marathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 14:09 halpimcat wrote:I've had recent success with Thorzain's mass marine build in TvT, where you FE and get quick +1 attack, stim, and combat shields with 2 medivacs to gain control ASAP. However, I've been beaten time and time again with 1 base tank/marine/air pushes as I just don't have the marine count to stop it at the 9 minute mark. Is this just a build order loss, or is there anything I could do to counter? Here is the replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/()ekisliefvirj_vs_()halpimcat/18927And the reason I scouted early is because I was playing vs random. I think it's just a hard matchup for 1rax FE. Because you are going for medivacs before you put any/much pressure on, this gives him time to get siege tanks and siege mode if that is what he is already planning to go for, which imo makes early 1base tank pushes really hard to deal with when you 1rax FE. Your best bet is counter attacking once he has setup his contain on you, with drops which will hopefully force his contain to retreat or at least stop/delay reinforcements which will make it easier to break. I was having similar problems in this matchup going 1rax FE into MMM where I would lose really early to 1base tank play, which is now I am looking at gas first banshee expand into MMM as you can mess up his workers with the banshee and force him to tech into an eBay and/or Starport when it might not be what he wanted. I'm only a Silver player myself, but looking at the replay the clear mistakes you made to me where: Stim was late, if you are definitely 100% getting stim you should get it before shield due to its longer research time The exchange, even though he has air you should use your high ground, if he miss micro's his banshee they will die fast to your marines and then he loses his vision and you can use your high ground to your advantage. You just straight up ran into siege tanks when you didnt need to.
Yeah I think the best best for survival is to try and delay his coming up the ramp for as long as possible, but it seems a fairly tall order.
I'll disagree with you about the stim part, since I think it's not that great before you have more than a handful of marines out. And works great becaues it finishes in conjunction with medivacs. Early stim wouldn't have helped me at all in these losses.
Edit: BTW plat player in South Korea servers, used to be masters in NA before I took a 3 month hiatus from SC2, then switched to zerg for a month. I think I'm almost at the same level I was playing at in NA, but the KR servers are definitely a lot harder and the metagame has left me i nthe dust.
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I do 12/14 rax and double reapers, 5 reapers -> CC at nat at 23 supply -> stim -> 2 more rax -> CS -> ebay at 6:15
Go into mass marine with stim shields +1. If they cloakshee, 5 reapers does epic damage. If they gasless, 5 reapers does epic damage.
Etc etc etc.
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On March 24 2012 22:07 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 19:53 Marathi wrote:On March 24 2012 14:09 halpimcat wrote:I've had recent success with Thorzain's mass marine build in TvT, where you FE and get quick +1 attack, stim, and combat shields with 2 medivacs to gain control ASAP. However, I've been beaten time and time again with 1 base tank/marine/air pushes as I just don't have the marine count to stop it at the 9 minute mark. Is this just a build order loss, or is there anything I could do to counter? Here is the replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/()ekisliefvirj_vs_()halpimcat/18927And the reason I scouted early is because I was playing vs random. I think it's just a hard matchup for 1rax FE. Because you are going for medivacs before you put any/much pressure on, this gives him time to get siege tanks and siege mode if that is what he is already planning to go for, which imo makes early 1base tank pushes really hard to deal with when you 1rax FE. Your best bet is counter attacking once he has setup his contain on you, with drops which will hopefully force his contain to retreat or at least stop/delay reinforcements which will make it easier to break. I was having similar problems in this matchup going 1rax FE into MMM where I would lose really early to 1base tank play, which is now I am looking at gas first banshee expand into MMM as you can mess up his workers with the banshee and force him to tech into an eBay and/or Starport when it might not be what he wanted. I'm only a Silver player myself, but looking at the replay the clear mistakes you made to me where: Stim was late, if you are definitely 100% getting stim you should get it before shield due to its longer research time The exchange, even though he has air you should use your high ground, if he miss micro's his banshee they will die fast to your marines and then he loses his vision and you can use your high ground to your advantage. You just straight up ran into siege tanks when you didnt need to. Yeah I think the best best for survival is to try and delay his coming up the ramp for as long as possible, but it seems a fairly tall order. I'll disagree with you about the stim part, since I think it's not that great before you have more than a handful of marines out. And works great becaues it finishes in conjunction with medivacs. Early stim wouldn't have helped me at all in these losses. Edit: BTW plat player in South Korea servers, used to be masters in NA before I took a 3 month hiatus from SC2, then switched to zerg for a month. I think I'm almost at the same level I was playing at in NA, but the KR servers are definitely a lot harder and the metagame has left me i nthe dust.
Edit -- not what you said, the quote of the quote of the OTHER guy. You are spot on, IMO.
Somewhat bad advice, in my mind. CS is much more important early defending in TvT because shields makes banshee take 1 more shot. Marines from a 1-1-1 siege push won't have shields. You have to identify the opening, and engage them in the middle of the map, forcing him to siege over and over before your base. Then, since you bought time, pull scvs, and engage him outside your base before he can set up, and just box split marines to spread out the tank fire.
1 rax FE is a solid build, don't toss it aside because of 1-1-1's. You can learn to deal with them easily. It requires map presence, scouting, and micro.
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On March 24 2012 10:34 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 09:42 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 23 2012 09:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
i really need some help with my tvz. My main problem, however, is not my mechanics or my strategy, which is often better than my opponents, but my passivity. I often sit back on 3 bases slowly move out with my marine/tank army, but this allows my opponent to take 4th and 5th bases, and easily tech up to hive, and just max and remax. Does anyone have some advice on how to remember to be more aggressive with my drops and so on? Start early and often. I almost never make it to 4 bases in TvZ unless I'm way ahead. It is very hard to play passive TvZ at it's current state. It's like playing with no mouse. Why do it? Try out demuslims 3-1 opening. A marine poke that always does fun damage, into map control with marine/hellion -> timing with CS/Stim/+1. Tweak it out how you will. I go fast 3rd CC, and then late tanks from 2-3 facs and constant pushes with 4-6 tanks and 2-4 medics with my infantry. Drop as you push and spread them thin is the key. can I have a link to demuslim's opening?
I think this might be the build, not sure though.: http://sc2casts.com/cast7687-DeMuslim-vs-Haypro-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Arena-Losers-Round
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Greetings fellow Terrans. I'm an Zerg player that are about to switch back to my original race. I've been playing as Zerg from top bronze to top gold. The question I now have for my switch is if there is any all-round opener I can learn really well against all the MUs? Since I think it's essential to master a good opener to work from and from there learning more openers and learning all the MUs mid / late games. I would be really thankful for any answer.
// UnoS
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in TvP, if you are doing a 1 rax fe, and your opponent is doing a forge fast expand, is it viable double expand instead of single expanding? I see zergs do this in response to a ffe and I was wondering if Terran could do it too.
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Yes or rush to medivacs and win
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On March 25 2012 10:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
in TvP, if you are doing a 1 rax fe, and your opponent is doing a forge fast expand, is it viable double expand instead of single expanding? I see zergs do this in response to a ffe and I was wondering if Terran could do it too.
Uh procede to do a normal 2 base 1-1-1 timing basically. banshee, cloak harass, siege tanks, marines, etc.
No way he can hold it with a FFE.
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Does anybody have any replays of successfully holding off a 4-gate rush vs. Thorzain's quick 1 rax FE into 2/2 upgrades?
I really want to adopt this build into my playbook, but know that I'm going to have to fight off 4 gate pushes on a constant basis.
Thanks for all your help. This forum is awesome!
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On March 25 2012 11:24 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 10:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
in TvP, if you are doing a 1 rax fe, and your opponent is doing a forge fast expand, is it viable double expand instead of single expanding? I see zergs do this in response to a ffe and I was wondering if Terran could do it too. Uh procede to do a normal 2 base 1-1-1 timing basically. banshee, cloak harass, siege tanks, marines, etc. No way he can hold it with a FFE.
this totally doesnt answer my question. my question was: can you do a double expand in response to an FFE? I didn't want to know how to counter an ffe. So could someone please actually answer my question?
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On March 25 2012 12:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 11:24 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 25 2012 10:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
in TvP, if you are doing a 1 rax fe, and your opponent is doing a forge fast expand, is it viable double expand instead of single expanding? I see zergs do this in response to a ffe and I was wondering if Terran could do it too. Uh procede to do a normal 2 base 1-1-1 timing basically. banshee, cloak harass, siege tanks, marines, etc. No way he can hold it with a FFE. this totally doesnt answer my question. my question was: can you do a double expand in response to an FFE? I didn't want to know how to counter an ffe. So could someone please actually answer my question?
IF you can macro well. Judging from your questions and what I've seen, I reccomended what would win you the game and is very good based on scouting.
You can double expo, but if you can't defend 3 bases and still tech behind it and defend the inevitable 5-6-7 gate all in if they scout that third.
So in short, 'friend', yes you can.
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215 Posts
On March 24 2012 23:51 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 22:07 halpimcat wrote:On March 24 2012 19:53 Marathi wrote:On March 24 2012 14:09 halpimcat wrote:I've had recent success with Thorzain's mass marine build in TvT, where you FE and get quick +1 attack, stim, and combat shields with 2 medivacs to gain control ASAP. However, I've been beaten time and time again with 1 base tank/marine/air pushes as I just don't have the marine count to stop it at the 9 minute mark. Is this just a build order loss, or is there anything I could do to counter? Here is the replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/()ekisliefvirj_vs_()halpimcat/18927And the reason I scouted early is because I was playing vs random. I think it's just a hard matchup for 1rax FE. Because you are going for medivacs before you put any/much pressure on, this gives him time to get siege tanks and siege mode if that is what he is already planning to go for, which imo makes early 1base tank pushes really hard to deal with when you 1rax FE. Your best bet is counter attacking once he has setup his contain on you, with drops which will hopefully force his contain to retreat or at least stop/delay reinforcements which will make it easier to break. I was having similar problems in this matchup going 1rax FE into MMM where I would lose really early to 1base tank play, which is now I am looking at gas first banshee expand into MMM as you can mess up his workers with the banshee and force him to tech into an eBay and/or Starport when it might not be what he wanted. I'm only a Silver player myself, but looking at the replay the clear mistakes you made to me where: Stim was late, if you are definitely 100% getting stim you should get it before shield due to its longer research time The exchange, even though he has air you should use your high ground, if he miss micro's his banshee they will die fast to your marines and then he loses his vision and you can use your high ground to your advantage. You just straight up ran into siege tanks when you didnt need to. Yeah I think the best best for survival is to try and delay his coming up the ramp for as long as possible, but it seems a fairly tall order. I'll disagree with you about the stim part, since I think it's not that great before you have more than a handful of marines out. And works great becaues it finishes in conjunction with medivacs. Early stim wouldn't have helped me at all in these losses. Edit: BTW plat player in South Korea servers, used to be masters in NA before I took a 3 month hiatus from SC2, then switched to zerg for a month. I think I'm almost at the same level I was playing at in NA, but the KR servers are definitely a lot harder and the metagame has left me i nthe dust. Edit -- not what you said, the quote of the quote of the OTHER guy. You are spot on, IMO. Somewhat bad advice, in my mind. CS is much more important early defending in TvT because shields makes banshee take 1 more shot. Marines from a 1-1-1 siege push won't have shields. You have to identify the opening, and engage them in the middle of the map, forcing him to siege over and over before your base. Then, since you bought time, pull scvs, and engage him outside your base before he can set up, and just box split marines to spread out the tank fire. 1 rax FE is a solid build, don't toss it aside because of 1-1-1's. You can learn to deal with them easily. It requires map presence, scouting, and micro.
I used to think 111s were no problem, but did you see the replay? There was definitely a weakness in my (thirzain's) build before I was able to mass produce marines, and my opponent exploited it beautifully. He had 3 tanks and as many, if not more marines than I did. I don't even think I had shields ready. I definitely shouldn't have attacked when I did, I didn't see or expect him to siege that early, but what could I have done in that situation? If I hadn't attacked when I did, and if he continued to play correctly (patiently leapfrogging tanks), I feel I would have still died for sure.
It's just getting really frustrating. I'll check the replay again when I get back home. There's always things I could improve on, but in instances like that I'm hard pressed to find things I could've done to just not die.
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Hey I was wondering what the best way to counter HT's in TvP is? Storm rips through my army like no other, and if the protoss has any micro at all they can hit my army with 3 or 4 HT's. I am watching MKP vs Parting right now and it seams to me that MKP has the same issue. He routinely destroys Partings army, but Parting stays in the game with a couple well placed storms from the high ground, which completely destroy MKP's army. I am no where near the ability of MKP and he seems to have trouble with them what can i do? I understand that snipe and emp deals with them well, but ghosts are way more expensive than HT, and a couple of HT's can stop a base trade.
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On March 26 2012 02:49 lordofsoup wrote:
Hey I was wondering what the best way to counter HT's in TvP is? Storm rips through my army like no other, and if the protoss has any micro at all they can hit my army with 3 or 4 HT's. I am watching MKP vs Parting right now and it seams to me that MKP has the same issue. He routinely destroys Partings army, but Parting stays in the game with a couple well placed storms from the high ground, which completely destroy MKP's army. I am no where near the ability of MKP and he seems to have trouble with them what can i do? I understand that snipe and emp deals with them well, but ghosts are way more expensive than HT, and a couple of HT's can stop a base trade.
need to emp or snipe them, and hopefully catch the protoss without obs, if you can scan and kill it, your cloaked ghosts can do a lot of damage.
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regarding tvt, when both sides are maxed out in bio tank, full upgrades on bio and some upgrades for tanks, turret+radar everywhere to prevent drops, bases everywhere....How do you break a siege line? This is a rather small map, not Tal Darim style so no attacking other direction. Im talking the Maginot Line here. I gave up a game against a friend by trying to break the line with everything + scv..but no dice. He suggests tech switching but with no upgrades. Thors arent gonna do shit against a mass bio army, and BC/ Banshees arent that great considering 0/0, so Im thinking maybe...Nukes? Are nukes viable? Launch, force retreat, move up set tanks, cancel.. repeat? Since its a small map I doubt it needs more than 5?
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On March 26 2012 03:02 padfoota wrote:
regarding tvt, when both sides are maxed out in bio tank, full upgrades on bio and some upgrades for tanks, turret+radar everywhere to prevent drops, bases everywhere....How do you break a siege line? This is a rather small map, not Tal Darim style so no attacking other direction. Im talking the Maginot Line here. I gave up a game against a friend by trying to break the line with everything + scv..but no dice. He suggests tech switching but with no upgrades. Thors arent gonna do shit against a mass bio army, and BC/ Banshees arent that great considering 0/0, so Im thinking maybe...Nukes? Are nukes viable? Launch, force retreat, move up set tanks, cancel.. repeat? Since its a small map I doubt it needs more than 5?
when you're dividing maps by half, you need to start getting air support, and going bc's and ravens to break tank lines but also keep making rax's
nukes are good too
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You biggest issue is your build and your macro.
You open reactor hellion expand both games but dont expand when you are supposed to. As soon as you have the 400 minerals required throw down your cc in the main if you dont feel safe, or on the low ground. It should go down around 21 supply.
In game 1 instead of making the cc you go 2 fact 2 rax right away. You shouldnt be able to support that much production that early yet you still have enough money to get a cc. This is a major macro problem. You make 2 factories but never have enough money and gas to really use them. And you never got a second gas geyser.
In game 2 you go for a more standard build but instead of getting the cc you wait and bank up almost 1000 minerals before making it. There is no reason to wait. Also you made fast hellions and just sent them to a random place on the map where they sat for several minutes doing nothing. You should scout with them and just park them outside the zergs base to deny creep/ make him scared. Your bio upgrades were way to late as well.
Try to do the hellion expand but throw down the cc on 21 supply. Then add 2 more barracks and a starport as you can afford them. Get stim and combat sheilds off the first tech lab you make. After 4 hellion switch the reactor on to a rax, and start a new tech lab on the fact to make tanks. Try pushing out with 4 or so tanks to get a contain on the zerg. Make a third in your base and float it off instead of being forced to cancel it several times as in game 2.
As a side note, if you make a post try to say in your post what you did bad/ good, and its better to post games that you lose so that its easier to see what you need to work on.
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EPT
