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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
So, is it normally used vs P? And is bunker rush only effective if enemy is fast expanding? I dont get how I can do it when they are on 1 base. Surely they have too many units already? And perhaps I will learn best by BO....does anyone have the BO for it? I researched, found some on wiki teamliquid, but I dont think they are updated. perhaps someone can make the BO on the spot. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
10 supply depot 11 barracks (cutting scv) 11 barracks (cutting scv) constant marine production. start your orbital and a depot with your extra minerals, then expand eventually. use minerals to make bunkers as well. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On a map like antiga in "close positions" (not cross), how can the mech player pressure a bios player 4th and 5th expansions? I almost think you simply cannot, outside of hellions and banshees. I open 1/1/1 -> viking scout almost every game in TvT. It's a great build and I recommend everyone do it. Fast expands into bio dont give the bio player THAT much of an econ advantage, but if you feel like it you can pull 2-3 scvs for repair and do a 2/3 tank siege timing on his nat. If he pulls SCVs and hits a stim timing he can usually crush it if your not in sick positions, so make sure your damn careful. My main question is: When do you start taking map control against a bio player with mech? Main replay sources: http://drop.sc/95021 http://drop.sc/95022 | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Anyway mech can't really get map control against bio, you pretty much turtle on 3 base, get a huge army and alot of turrets and then you expand in his direction to get your 4th as you start pushing his base. The hardest part is securing your 3rd since thats the point where you will be most vulnerable to doomdrops and multipronged attacks. Still, hellions are pretty damn good at harassing 4th and 5th bases, hell its MORE then worth it by that time to lose 10 hellions to a PF to kill 20scvs at a far base. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
I've had some luck with 1 gas after my 2nd CC, then 2-3 rax, and then my second gas. I spend my gas as: stim, shields, fact, port. I usually head out around 8:30 to 9:00 with a little bit of time left to finish on stim and concussive. I'll usually have 2 medivacs flying out to my army by 9:30 or 9:45. I'll poke cautiously until the medivacs arrive and then get aggressive. My questions are: How safe is it to delay my ebay in favor of of the starport? Does ebay take priority if I see upgrading at a forge? What's the best way to hurt protoss early (before collosus and HT) if we both FE? | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Why does an ebay delay your gas? | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On January 20 2012 04:50 Willzzz wrote: If you are happy waiting until 9:30 you can easily get both. Don't panic about getting gas before CC, the delay is nothing to worry about, especially if it ends up giving you a strong timing. Why does an ebay delay your gas? I'm delaying my ebay and +1 weapons in favor of getting a starport sooner. I started with drewbie's TvP gasless FE, where he highly stresses the importance of ebay upgrades. However, I feel way too passive in part because I feel like my medivacs are coming too late. So, evolving from there, I'm trying something like: 12 Rax 18 CC 1st gas Rax Rax 2nd gas stim shields fact port I'll work concussive in there but I'll actually hold off on the ebay and +1 weapons until pretty late (like after the starport). I need both the minerals for marauders and the gas for the port and medivacs. This seems to give me a pretty effective timing of MMM with tech lab ups but I'm behind on +weapons which is bad if he's upgrading armor. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:09 statikg wrote: You can be aggressive off of a 1rax FE if u immediately add 3more rax and then a gas and get one tech lab for conc stim and mauraders, obviously your medivacs are delayed but you can punish a greedy teching protoss without them with this build. I am somewhat suprised you don't die to 1base all-in constantly with your current build order as basically everyone gets the extra rax before gas imo. Well, my opponents are gold and platinum so that probably helps. The gas introduces a few seconds delay on the extra raxes and timings probably just arent tight enough at my level. As far as your suggestion, it seems similar to just the standard gasless FE where your first 100 gas go on stim. I'd say your stim isnt finishing until after 9 minutes, right? When do you head out? | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Your +1 will finish when you have 4 medivacs out, making for a nice timing. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:37 KimJongChill wrote: How can I hold a 1 rax fe against a korean 4 gate (8 pylo 10 gate, etc)? Is it even possible, or do I just need to respond with a different build? Scout. See. React. Lift CC from natural to main after it's done. Make it into an OC. Make bunkers. Pull scvs. Repair. Win off 2 OCs, add on rax as money allows. Also. Lift rax, pull it back, land it. Make bunker in it's place. 2 depot + 1 bunker and like 5-7 SCVs can easily stop a K4G with a 1 rax FE. Tech to medics/ghosts/tanks/banshees/stimshellsshields anything works after you stop a K4G | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
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Techno
1900 Posts
On January 20 2012 03:53 statikg wrote: Techno, if you are really good at marine tank, then since it crushes pure bio why would you want try to switch to mech which is worse them marine tank against bio. Its a bit confusing to me. Anyway mech can't really get map control against bio, you pretty much turtle on 3 base, get a huge army and alot of turrets and then you expand in his direction to get your 4th as you start pushing his base. The hardest part is securing your 3rd since thats the point where you will be most vulnerable to doomdrops and multipronged attacks. Still, hellions are pretty damn good at harassing 4th and 5th bases, hell its MORE then worth it by that time to lose 10 hellions to a PF to kill 20scvs at a far base. Good point. Mech is very weird vs pure bio. Marine tank is stronger... if u have bio upgrade lead u just ez win. | ||
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BioTech
Australia264 Posts
On January 20 2012 04:24 Smackzilla wrote: I'm looking for ways to be more aggressive earlier in TvP when we both expand fairly early (I'm doing a gasless FE). I'm playing with getting gas earlier, delaying the engineering bay, and getting a reactored port out earlier (with stim and shields finishing first). I've had some luck with 1 gas after my 2nd CC, then 2-3 rax, and then my second gas. I spend my gas as: stim, shields, fact, port. I usually head out around 8:30 to 9:00 with a little bit of time left to finish on stim and concussive. I'll usually have 2 medivacs flying out to my army by 9:30 or 9:45. I'll poke cautiously until the medivacs arrive and then get aggressive. My questions are: How safe is it to delay my ebay in favor of of the starport? Does ebay take priority if I see upgrading at a forge? What's the best way to hurt protoss early (before collosus and HT) if we both FE? I get Ebay at 6:00 (for turrets) for DT insurance, modest void insurance and mine regularly drop observers coz i place them behind my rax. Now its a bit of a backwards question to ask how to be more aggressive in TvP if youre going gasless FE. FE and early aggression cant really be in same sentence. 2/3rax aggression is genuine early aggression...but its terminal...for the protoss. I win most of my TvP outright & conclusively before 11:00. A T should never delay his ebay v P IMHO. that +1 weapons upgrade is deadly with stim. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On January 20 2012 11:32 BioTech wrote: I get Ebay at 6:00 (for turrets) for DT insurance, modest void insurance and mine regularly drop observers coz i place them behind my rax. Now its a bit of a backwards question to ask how to be more aggressive in TvP if youre going gasless FE. FE and early aggression cant really be in same sentence. 2/3rax aggression is genuine early aggression...but its terminal...for the protoss. I win most of my TvP outright & conclusively before 11:00. A T should never delay his ebay v P IMHO. that +1 weapons upgrade is deadly with stim. ...To be honest, FE into aggression will have a stronger attack by the 9-10 minute mark, with more units and tech and less all in. Infact, I do reaper FE into 5 rax pressure, and I FE fast, and yet still do a rather large push early, and constant with a third by 9 minutes...and don't ebay until 10+, and then double ebay and it never stops upgrading. Sure I'm down in upgrades, up in bases, and on 5+ rax with medics, I can be aggressive all over the place while still upholding upgrades and macro. To me, this seems like bad advice. One, it seems like you aren't at all scouting, or playing a reactive style. If you always ebay at 6 for DT/VR/+1...then it must be part of your build. But I assume 2/3 rax, +1, +stim, means your expo, if you make one, isn't until well after the 7 minute mark. Protoss that 1 gate FE, can cut probes at ~40, and still be safe holding off 2 rax/3rax pressure, pending map size and scouting/map chokes. If he's playing an FE style, don't tell him to change it and go more all in, and a more archaic build that is falling out of style with more metagame changes, and protoss getting earlier robos to deal with 2/3rax pressure with immortals. | ||
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BioTech
Australia264 Posts
virtually all of what you say is correct. If Im left alone (even if attacked Ill hold it off) I will have about 5 marauders, 1 reaper, 34 marines with stim, +1, CShield at around 9:45 when I attack, what can you get by this time? I doubt it will be deadlier. I am rarely held off by protoss. When I lose its to skillful FF leaving no gaps, but on Metalopolis theres too much area to defend. My expo used to go down around 7:30...but Im happy to delay it. I transition to 4 rax, 1 fact, SPort+R. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On January 20 2012 12:02 BioTech wrote: Jeffrey, virtually all of what you say is correct. If Im left alone (even if attacked Ill hold it off) I will have about 5 marauders, 1 reaper, 34 marines with stim, +1, CShield at around 9:45 when I attack, what can you get by this time? I doubt it will be deadlier. I am rarely held off by protoss. When I lose its to skillful FF leaving no gaps, but on Metalopolis theres too much area to defend. My expo used to go down around 7:30...but Im happy to delay it. I transition to 4 rax, 1 fact, SPort+R. Uh, well let me check a replay when I wake up tomorrow morning. I know for a fact, that I can have about 6-7 marauders, 25 marines, 3 tanks with siege, 2 medics, and a third started at 11 minutes. Let's compare in the morning. 9:45 36 scvs 2 tanks 7 marauders 17 marines And when I push, at 10:45 when third starts 40 scvs 2 medics 3 tanks (with siege) 8 marauders (shells) 23 marines (stim shields) Yeaaah, pretty sure not only is my army actually able to fight, but it's not an all in and has a tech route out if the attack doesn't win the game. You have to win with your attack, or any 1 gate FE protoss will roll your fucking face. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On January 20 2012 02:52 Techno wrote: Anyone confident mech tvt vs bio? I am sooooo good marine tank vs marine tank. Like literally neever lose long TvTs (me so greedy), but against bio I am kinda scared to take map control, and it really puts me behind economically, which allows the bio player to make a stronger air transition than me. On a map like antiga in "close positions" (not cross), how can the mech player pressure a bios player 4th and 5th expansions? I almost think you simply cannot, outside of hellions and banshees. I open 1/1/1 -> viking scout almost every game in TvT. It's a great build and I recommend everyone do it. Fast expands into bio dont give the bio player THAT much of an econ advantage, but if you feel like it you can pull 2-3 scvs for repair and do a 2/3 tank siege timing on his nat. If he pulls SCVs and hits a stim timing he can usually crush it if your not in sick positions, so make sure your damn careful. My main question is: When do you start taking map control against a bio player with mech? Main replay sources: http://drop.sc/95021 http://drop.sc/95022 Once you have handful of hellions running about with cloaked banshees. You have to abuse these two units. Have one at each xelnaga tower (if they bring a rauder bring all your hellion mates), keep one hellion or even a banshee at potential expansion locations for the opposing player. Always move your hellions about. Do runbys, fake going into 3rd with a group A of hellions and send group B into the natural. They also like to drop against you, drop them back. Thinking about it, most mech players mass hellions early game then getting tanks since you lack the gas and have lots of minerals to sink. With mech you need a solid 3 base with atleast 4~5 OC total (spreading tanks/turrets/sensor towers around). The whole point is to build up a sizeable tank force. This doesn't mean your turtling since other units(explained above) will be pressuring the opposing player. Once you feel safe and all bases are covered, you can grab some outlying+the closest expansions and upgrade them with PFs. Pure Bio cannot win a straight up fight against a mech army. You can start pushing forward, forming tank/turret lines. Depending on the situation, you can literally go kill him once you hit a decent number of hellions/tanks/vikings. Normally this is when you start cranking out MASS thors to replace tanks. What happens most of the time is that when they start off with pure Bio, they normally transition into viking/BC or bio/tanks to viking BC. And believe it or not 3/3 thors will rape most air as long as your ahead in upgrades + number. | ||
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StiX
Netherlands220 Posts
Poll: Which build do you prefer? reactor hellion expand (12) 11/11 rax pressure into expand (1) 13 total votes Your vote: Which build do you prefer? (Vote): 11/11 rax pressure into expand Which opening in TvZ do you guys prefer from these two? | ||
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