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On January 20 2012 11:46 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 11:32 BioTech wrote:On January 20 2012 04:24 Smackzilla wrote:
I'm looking for ways to be more aggressive earlier in TvP when we both expand fairly early (I'm doing a gasless FE). I'm playing with getting gas earlier, delaying the engineering bay, and getting a reactored port out earlier (with stim and shields finishing first).
I've had some luck with 1 gas after my 2nd CC, then 2-3 rax, and then my second gas. I spend my gas as: stim, shields, fact, port. I usually head out around 8:30 to 9:00 with a little bit of time left to finish on stim and concussive. I'll usually have 2 medivacs flying out to my army by 9:30 or 9:45. I'll poke cautiously until the medivacs arrive and then get aggressive.
My questions are: How safe is it to delay my ebay in favor of of the starport? Does ebay take priority if I see upgrading at a forge? What's the best way to hurt protoss early (before collosus and HT) if we both FE? I get Ebay at 6:00 (for turrets) for DT insurance, modest void insurance and mine regularly drop observers coz i place them behind my rax. Now its a bit of a backwards question to ask how to be more aggressive in TvP if youre going gasless FE. FE and early aggression cant really be in same sentence. 2/3rax aggression is genuine early aggression...but its terminal...for the protoss. I win most of my TvP outright & conclusively before 11:00. A T should never delay his ebay v P IMHO. that +1 weapons upgrade is deadly with stim. ...To be honest, FE into aggression will have a stronger attack by the 9-10 minute mark, with more units and tech and less all in. Infact, I do reaper FE into 5 rax pressure, and I FE fast, and yet still do a rather large push early, and constant with a third by 9 minutes...and don't ebay until 10+, and then double ebay and it never stops upgrading. Sure I'm down in upgrades, up in bases, and on 5+ rax with medics, I can be aggressive all over the place while still upholding upgrades and macro. To me, this seems like bad advice. One, it seems like you aren't at all scouting, or playing a reactive style. If you always ebay at 6 for DT/VR/+1...then it must be part of your build. But I assume 2/3 rax, +1, +stim, means your expo, if you make one, isn't until well after the 7 minute mark. Protoss that 1 gate FE, can cut probes at ~40, and still be safe holding off 2 rax/3rax pressure, pending map size and scouting/map chokes. If he's playing an FE style, don't tell him to change it and go more all in, and a more archaic build that is falling out of style with more metagame changes, and protoss getting earlier robos to deal with 2/3rax pressure with immortals.
Hi jeffrey mind posting a replay?
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United Kingdom774 Posts
Regarding zerg, I'm starting to favour non reactor hellion opening, your first hellion is a little faster which can catch zerg off guard, the extra resources go into fast upgrades and then I transition into mass marines.
Single hellions still provide map control in most cases and mean you are less vulnerable to any roach aggression.
But it's all about super fast upgrades for my marines, marines are always excellent units throughout the game and if you have an upgrade lead they are just deadly, even if they keep up in upgrades the fact you can demolish buildings so fast is still just an awesome advantage.
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In a TvZ with an open 3rd (Metropolis), should I leave a tank there to help protect it? And in a TvZ, when should you make Planetary's instead of Orbitals.
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Don't leave a tank. Make a bunker there with a few marines in it, or make it a planetary. Also depends on what build you're doing.
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United Kingdom774 Posts
That is just such an open question, it depends on so many factors.
Zerg very often win games with their counter attacks and a well placed tank can be pivotal, however you can usually get away without, especially with good building placement.
About planetaries, it depends upon things like whether you have map control and whether you are playing offensively or defensively.
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Biotech, IAmJefferey: Thanks for the feedback.
Do you guys have an opinion on the importance of +1 weapons vs. medivacs? IAJ seems to favor medivacs and biotech favors +1 weap. Which would you prioritize? Does forge scouting info change your decision making?
As you might have gathered, I was looking to do a strong bio push *earlier* after a gasless FE. By getting my 4th rax before getting gas, and getting +1 weapons with all the tech lab upgrades, my pushes were more of a 10 minute push. I'm wanting to get that push closer to 8:30 or 9:00. Again, my thought was delay +1 weapons and get medivacs faster since in practice my army seems *so* much stronger with just that first pair of medivacs.
Biotech: I'll be sure to look at dropping the ebay around 6 mins and see if that interferes much.
Again, thanks for the help
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On January 21 2012 03:08 wunsun wrote:
In a TvZ with an open 3rd (Metropolis), should I leave a tank there to help protect it? And in a TvZ, when should you make Planetary's instead of Orbitals.
Leave a tank if it needs protection. Only ever make Planetarys if you absolutely can't get away with making an orbital. Orbitals will benefit you sooooooo much more, especially in TvZ! Scans and mules are game changers.
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On January 21 2012 03:08 wunsun wrote:
In a TvZ with an open 3rd (Metropolis), should I leave a tank there to help protect it?
Yes, because a single bunker won't protect your mineral line against random 15+ Banelings attacks.
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Anyone have advice on production facilities in the late game?
I like to play marine tank medivac and by the end game when I have lots of minerals I usually have 3fac, 2reactor star port, and ten barracks. About how many production facilities do you like to have late game, not just for bio-mech but for other builds too.
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Hey all,
I've got a problem I.E zerg macro. In short, on maps like shakuras, shattered or any other map that they can easily defend with 2 spines and 4 queens, they saturate 2 base in about 8-9 mins then go full army production whilst getting a third.
How do I stop this? My first wave is never enough to harm the zerg, and if that first wave dies I gg cause the zerg economy goes out of control. On maps such as tal darim cross spawn, this is even worse.... any ideas or tips that I may use?
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On January 21 2012 06:03 cruxBoss wrote:
Hey all,
I've got a problem I.E zerg macro. In short, on maps like shakuras, shattered or any other map that they can easily defend with 2 spines and 4 queens, they saturate 2 base in about 8-9 mins then go full army production whilst getting a third.
How do I stop this? My first wave is never enough to harm the zerg, and if that first wave dies I gg cause the zerg economy goes out of control. On maps such as tal darim cross spawn, this is even worse.... any ideas or tips that I may use?
Have you tried dropping the main? Surely they won't have much defense there. Also, if your tank count is high enough, you should be able to threaten his third or natural. Just don't do it too fast, and pick up your shit and leave if things get out of hand.
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The thing I find about tank count is that.... mass ling... I mean seriously, MASS LINGS just own marine + tanks... =____=
I'm at wits end. T v Z used to be my best matchup. Now i'm in mid-high to high masters and all the zergs just pretty much own me in the same way.
I've tried dropping their queens target the medivacs and lings come over I can't do damage neither...
=(
Any more thoughts?
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On January 21 2012 01:00 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 11:46 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 20 2012 11:32 BioTech wrote:On January 20 2012 04:24 Smackzilla wrote:
I'm looking for ways to be more aggressive earlier in TvP when we both expand fairly early (I'm doing a gasless FE). I'm playing with getting gas earlier, delaying the engineering bay, and getting a reactored port out earlier (with stim and shields finishing first).
I've had some luck with 1 gas after my 2nd CC, then 2-3 rax, and then my second gas. I spend my gas as: stim, shields, fact, port. I usually head out around 8:30 to 9:00 with a little bit of time left to finish on stim and concussive. I'll usually have 2 medivacs flying out to my army by 9:30 or 9:45. I'll poke cautiously until the medivacs arrive and then get aggressive.
My questions are: How safe is it to delay my ebay in favor of of the starport? Does ebay take priority if I see upgrading at a forge? What's the best way to hurt protoss early (before collosus and HT) if we both FE? I get Ebay at 6:00 (for turrets) for DT insurance, modest void insurance and mine regularly drop observers coz i place them behind my rax. Now its a bit of a backwards question to ask how to be more aggressive in TvP if youre going gasless FE. FE and early aggression cant really be in same sentence. 2/3rax aggression is genuine early aggression...but its terminal...for the protoss. I win most of my TvP outright & conclusively before 11:00. A T should never delay his ebay v P IMHO. that +1 weapons upgrade is deadly with stim. http://drop.sc/81262 vs 750 masters protoss.http://drop.sc/75312 ...To be honest, FE into aggression will have a stronger attack by the 9-10 minute mark, with more units and tech and less all in. Infact, I do reaper FE into 5 rax pressure, and I FE fast, and yet still do a rather large push early, and constant with a third by 9 minutes...and don't ebay until 10+, and then double ebay and it never stops upgrading. Sure I'm down in upgrades, up in bases, and on 5+ rax with medics, I can be aggressive all over the place while still upholding upgrades and macro. To me, this seems like bad advice. One, it seems like you aren't at all scouting, or playing a reactive style. If you always ebay at 6 for DT/VR/+1...then it must be part of your build. But I assume 2/3 rax, +1, +stim, means your expo, if you make one, isn't until well after the 7 minute mark. Protoss that 1 gate FE, can cut probes at ~40, and still be safe holding off 2 rax/3rax pressure, pending map size and scouting/map chokes. If he's playing an FE style, don't tell him to change it and go more all in, and a more archaic build that is falling out of style with more metagame changes, and protoss getting earlier robos to deal with 2/3rax pressure with immortals. Hi jeffrey mind posting a replay?
http://drop.sc/81262 vs 750 masters protoss.
http://drop.sc/75312 vs 800 masters protoss.
http://drop.sc/75313 vs 890 masters protoss.
http://drop.sc/75314 vs 839 masters protoss.
Some are from last season, but as I only played the last week of last season, they're not that old. I am in the process of hammering out and tweaking fine timings with the reaper FE into 5 rax. The FE into 3 tank push is pretty stout as it stands, with sport starting at 9min on the dot, reactor swap, 2 medics and go push.
I've been being a troll, and just laddering friends names up for them. Sospecial, Lunacy, daynine, and random, I haven't played much on my name, as such not getting as good of competition.
Pardon to anyone I was a BM troll to whilst on those names. Just a clever ruse.
As you might have gathered, I was looking to do a strong bio push *earlier* after a gasless FE. By getting my 4th rax before getting gas, and getting +1 weapons with all the tech lab upgrades, my pushes were more of a 10 minute push. I'm wanting to get that push closer to 8:30 or 9:00. Again, my thought was delay +1 weapons and get medivacs faster since in practice my army seems *so* much stronger with just that first pair of medivacs.
+1 is standard, but so is fast medics. It all boils down to your play style, and your unit control. I like to go for more infantry early, with an early FE and just flood them with bio until they get 2+ immortals out, then expo and pull back for medics. If the protoss is going for an immortal bust, most times medics won't even be out soon, so it's a waste to even attempt it. But, against a 6/7 gate push, medics can be out, and really turn the tide of the battle.
I do +1 attack in any timing push where it's semi all in or lose. IE ghost pushes. If I ghost push, I do it off reaper FE, with fast stim, and then 4 rax, double tech lab 2 ghost push with +1. Marine heavy, as most ghost pushes are.
It's common to get an ebay early, and start +1, then +1 armor as you get 2nd ebay and armory, as you should by now be on saturated 2 bases. I just don't do it. I cut it late, and go double ebay at ~10 minutes.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 21 2012 04:15 Snaiil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:08 wunsun wrote:
In a TvZ with an open 3rd (Metropolis), should I leave a tank there to help protect it? And in a TvZ, when should you make Planetary's instead of Orbitals. Leave a tank if it needs protection. Only ever make Planetarys if you absolutely can't get away with making an orbital. Orbitals will benefit you sooooooo much more, especially in TvZ! Scans and mules are game changers.
I add on like 3-4 rax as I take my third. I use these to wall and provide protection for it. On metalopolis, properly placed unaddoned barracks are a lifesaver for the third.
On January 21 2012 06:02 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Anyone have advice on production facilities in the late game?
I like to play marine tank medivac and by the end game when I have lots of minerals I usually have 3fac, 2reactor star port, and ten barracks. About how many production facilities do you like to have late game, not just for bio-mech but for other builds too.
I like to keep on adding factories, barracks and starports as my number of bases increases, especially if I get maxed and have little else to do with my money. If you find yourself banking a lot of minerals, keep on adding on barracks (without reactors) to be able to spend it.
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Do you have your medivacs in the same controlgroup as your bio?
There's the obvious problem when stutterstepping and the medivacs won't heal, is there another way?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:22 siii wrote:
Do you have your medivacs in the same controlgroup as your bio?
There's the obvious problem when stutterstepping and the medivacs won't heal, is there another way?
You could have a seperate control group without medivacs on it, or have your medivacs follow your main army, then select "guys that aren't medivacs" and stutter-step them. I haven't found the difference to be big enough to be worth it, and when stutter-stepping backwards (usually against protoss) I actually want my medivacs to be moving along with me rather than lagging behind where they can be picked off by stalkers.
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Why is a reactored hellion expand preferred over a siege expand in a TvZ?
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On January 21 2012 07:44 KenDM wrote:
Why is a reactored hellion expand preferred over a siege expand in a TvZ?
Gives you map control even if slings are running around.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:44 KenDM wrote:
Why is a reactored hellion expand preferred over a siege expand in a TvZ?
Siege tanks are slow and difficult to use to apply pressure without a big commitment. They engage and disengage slowly due to their low movespeed and need to be in siege mode. Also, they are gas-heavy units, and operate best in large numbers rather than small numbers due to their low rate of fire.
As a result, Siege Tank attacks as terran require a large number of marines or another filler unit to cover for the tanks to siege and unsiege, and fill in gaps in firepower.
Hellions, on the other hand, are gas-cheap, quick, and can engage and disengage at will. This means that you can make a few early-game hellions to trap the zerg in his base until he has a lot of zerglings or some roaches, and do so without a big commitment-- if he makes a lot of units, you can use your mobility to go home. It's a low-risk, high-pressure build that can deal economic damage easily and prevents creep spread without great cost to you.
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EPT
