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On February 01 2013 11:52 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 10:23 dachi wrote:
I suicide a probe to check for expo gases & drone count. Low drone count usually means some sort of 2base allin coming. Later, you could try suiciding a zlot to check the expo gases. And later still, if you're wondering what tech path he's going, you just get a stargate unit, obs, or hallucinated phoenix to scout. The problem with later is that 2 base roach stuff hits around 6 minutes while 2 base mutas hits a couple minutes later. If i prepare with like 4 cannons against roaches and he goes mutas then i get to far behind. I think i might just go learn how to open stargate just for these scenarios when i see a really late 3rd base or no 3rd base.
Stargate solves a lot of problems with this. If you see 2base play, get a Void and then 5 Phoenixes. The Void makes you safe against roach busts, and the Phoenixes can scout what's going on so you can react. Keep the Void at home, a little bit in front of your wall-off like a floating photon cannon to force him to either commit his full army or lose stuff as it runs under your void ray to your wall-off. Then the first phoenix should go across the normal rush path to see stuff rallied across the map, and then check his bases for tech structures/evos/macro hatch/third base/drone count/gases. The second one can clear out overlords. Then, if it turns out to be 2-base muta, you have an initial squad of 4-5 mutas and you can just drop a beacon, get range, and hard-counter the zerg.
This is why Stargate is considered good against cheese in PvZ.
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On February 01 2013 14:05 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 11:52 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On February 01 2013 10:23 dachi wrote:
I suicide a probe to check for expo gases & drone count. Low drone count usually means some sort of 2base allin coming. Later, you could try suiciding a zlot to check the expo gases. And later still, if you're wondering what tech path he's going, you just get a stargate unit, obs, or hallucinated phoenix to scout. The problem with later is that 2 base roach stuff hits around 6 minutes while 2 base mutas hits a couple minutes later. If i prepare with like 4 cannons against roaches and he goes mutas then i get to far behind. I think i might just go learn how to open stargate just for these scenarios when i see a really late 3rd base or no 3rd base. If someone is still on 2 base, i just start actively suicide probes to check his gases at his natural, drone count etc. It is generally pretty easy to scout 2 base tech, unless he opened really fast speed there is no way he can prevent u from checking the gas and drone count at the natural and even if he has speed u can be a little sneaky.
Its actually not that hard. he leaves a ling at the entrance of your base. And in order to deny you hard they just kill your probe with the queen. also some zergs maynard a lot of drones to there second so that even if you check their drone counts you can't tell >.<
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On February 01 2013 16:08 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 14:05 blooblooblahblah wrote:On February 01 2013 11:52 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On February 01 2013 10:23 dachi wrote:
I suicide a probe to check for expo gases & drone count. Low drone count usually means some sort of 2base allin coming. Later, you could try suiciding a zlot to check the expo gases. And later still, if you're wondering what tech path he's going, you just get a stargate unit, obs, or hallucinated phoenix to scout. The problem with later is that 2 base roach stuff hits around 6 minutes while 2 base mutas hits a couple minutes later. If i prepare with like 4 cannons against roaches and he goes mutas then i get to far behind. I think i might just go learn how to open stargate just for these scenarios when i see a really late 3rd base or no 3rd base. If someone is still on 2 base, i just start actively suicide probes to check his gases at his natural, drone count etc. It is generally pretty easy to scout 2 base tech, unless he opened really fast speed there is no way he can prevent u from checking the gas and drone count at the natural and even if he has speed u can be a little sneaky. Its actually not that hard. he leaves a ling at the entrance of your base. And in order to deny you hard they just kill your probe with the queen. also some zergs maynard a lot of drones to there second so that even if you check their drone counts you can't tell >.<
It's very difficult for the zerg to deny you scouting their gases at their natural. Unless u vs zergs that are way better than the ones vs, if u scout 2 base and actively try to scout their gas, you will scout it. Also, like others have suggested, Stargate is pretty decent against any zerg on 2 base
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 01 2013 10:30 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 09:55 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Guys I have one question. In pvz, whenever i see no 3rd base i auto assume roaches, yet i always die to two base mutas. How do you guys tell them apart? You can chrono out 2 zealots and take map control, which allows you to see the roaches (or other all-ins) coming early. At the very least, the zerg will be forced to make a bunch of extra lings if he wants to hide it, and you can try to sneak a probe in if he goes after the zealots. From there you can go stargate tech, which is pretty good against 2 base zerg in general, and scout him. If roaches come, cannon up and get a void ray first. Otherwise you can just go phoenixes and blindly shut down 2 base mutas. As long as you stop at 4-5 phoenixes and get a timely robo, you'll be fine vs. 2 base infestors as well.
This. Additionally, always get a second cannon against gas openings. Add 1-2 more if some kind of all-in comes.
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Hey guys, I'm trying out the 3 stalker opening in PvP while only scouting my base with a probe. I just played a proxy 2 gater on cloud kingdom. He had 3 zealots walking in my base by the time my first stalker was being constructed. My question is this: How can I stop this kind of attack WITHOUT scouting it early. I'm not sure a defensive forge would have gotten up in time, perhaps I should have pulled all my probes..
Thanks in advance.
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What are some PvP builds that are safe from 4 gate, but will still leave me with a good mid game economy (2 bases atleast)?
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I have a question about mid/lategame PvT engagements. In situations where, as an example, I have 3 or 4 Colossi and my Terran opponent has a reasonable number of Vikings to combat them (maybe 12?) and an engagement happens between my army and his bio ball and Vikings (assume pre-psi storm and pre-ghost for simplicity), what is the best way to control my Colossi when his Vikings attempt to engage them?
Is it best to try to run the Colossi away and have my Stalkers focusfire the Vikings, attempting to save the Colossi? Or would I be better off selecting the Colossi and focusing marines, essentially forfeiting them to the Vikings but getting the most "bang for buck" out of them while they are still alive and whittling his bio down as much as I can, while ignoring the Vikings because they are useless once my Colossi die? I know in the case of like 6 Colossi and only like 8-10 Vikings, it's pertinent to save them because they are the bulk of my AoE, but in typical, reasonable circumstances, do GM/pro level players find it optimal to try to save them or just use them while you can?
I bring this up because as a beginner, in lower leagues and so on, I used to always try to run my Colossi away, split them up to run in different directions from the Vikings, ctrl-select my anti-air to focus down Vikings and kind of juke my main army around and forcefield until I could take care of the Vikings and engage with a much better army.
But as I got a bit better and faced better players with better armies and superior control, I found that Terran players who split their Vikings, focused Colossi smartly, etc. would usually kill my Colossi in the end no matter what I did and aggressively engage my army with bio in the meanwhile, and I was just losing my Colossi without them actually dishing out solid AoE, so I started just focusing them on the front center of the bio to maximize damage, since if they're going to die, I may as well use them as best I can.
The issue I have with this is that if they are going to be one-time AoE with the primary purpose of baiting the Terran into overproducing Vikings, I would be better off making 1 Colossi, getting Hallucinate to hallu like 3 more and show them, and quick-teching to storm and Archons for real, lasting AoE. This is fine, and I think it's a solid gameplan, but that's what I do when I'm going chargelot/archon/storm. What if I want to go heavy Colossi as my primary AoE, and delay Templar Tech?
How should I be managing these engagements to maximize the value I get out of my Colossi, and possibly increase their staying power in a battle against Vikings? What micro/control tips can you give? Should I be quickteching to storm anyway and getting a few HT, so I can storm the Vikings? Any help would be very much appreciated; I want to be able to vary my strats, and go Colossi without having to hit a pre - +1 ship weapons timing attack with a lot of Stalkers and such. What are the best ways to utilize Colossi as the backbone of a compositions AoE?
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Italy12246 Posts
You should have a group of blink stalkers to protect your colossi; 12 or so will do. Just blink the stalkers underneath the vikings and focus fire them while you let the colossi shred the bio.
In general, opening colossus is done mostly in two ways: you either get one with no range and then go straight into templar on 2 bases, or get 3 as well as range. Generally with the second build you will also get blink before charge to protect the colossi more effectively.
Opening with 3 colossi is not done as much at the highest level because of how strong viking-heavy timings can be before storm is done, but in general it's a reasonable build. Going higher than 3 before switching into storm isn't done because it delays your templar tech for too long.
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Okay, in the instance you described (which is my standard for macro-PvT as of late) in which I go 3 Colossi, with range, and then tech to Templar and Storm, how would the battle best be managed if I have to engage the Terran before Storm is out and he has a large number of +1 Vikings, say 4 for every Colossus for 12 total? I used to go double Forge, but I go 1 Forge now and make a second when I start my Templar Archives because I find 2 Forge hurts my army count too much early on.
Even with a good number of Blink Stalkers focusing the Vikings, it feels like my Colossi could be living a bit longer with better management; perhaps as a result of going for +2 Armor before getting any weapons upgrades, the Stalkers take quite a while dealing with the Vikings; they generally outlive my Colossi, and I guess I'm looking for a way to have my Colossi outlive the Vikings so they can supplement my army's DPS unopposed. Is this an unrealistic goal?
Good tip on going Blink first when going ranged Colossi, though; I generally let whether the Terran is being aggressive or turtling and eco-booming (which is usually accompanied by drop heavy play) dictate whether I get Charge or Blink first. Generally I try to get charge out quickly against a very aggressive player, and against a player going for a quick 3rd and heavy upgrades I try to get Blink first for mobility and to defend against the impending drops. I guess I should be spending more chrono on Twilight Council upgrades to get both Blink and Charge out before a situation where I have to engage, so I can have charge to deal with bio better as well as Blink to better protect the Colossi.
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Italy12246 Posts
That timing as i said is very scary. Depending on how far along your Storm research is, either try to stall for time (if it's 70% done or more) or just warp in Archons. You should be able to get charge on time.
It's very important to have a good gateway count at that point (10 or so). If you engage well (stalkers in position behind zealots and underneath vikings, good ff's, colossi taking good shots off) you should be able to not die, but you will likely lose a few if not all of your colossi.
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Macro is more important than micro at this point, in my opinion. It's a the point where your fully saturated, and the Terran is posturing at your front door, making you very nervous. He wants to hit that high supply 22 timing. Retain as much map control as possible (watch towers etc) and have obs in good positions for passive map control. Be sure to have enough gates, or you'll end up floating A LOT of resources at the exact wrong time.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 05 2013 20:05 FireMonkey wrote:
What are some PvP builds that are safe from 4 gate, but will still leave me with a good mid game economy (2 bases atleast)?
There's quite a wide variety. Generally 4 gate is held off in two different ways: A) engaging the opponent's army on the map and sniping their probe or B) forcefielding the ramp to buy enough time to kill their pylons and build up an army strong enough to fight the 4gate.
So a super standard zealot -> stalker -> sentry opening is already quite safe vs a 4 gate. If you scout a lot of chrono energy being spent on warpgate research, you might want to chronoboost out a second sentry to stall for time until your own warpgate research is done. Meanwhile, you can tech to whatever you like behind it, although DT tech will leave you with little gas to warp in enough sentries to hold so it's generally not a good plan to go DTs if you suspect a 4gate.
A really safe opening is the good old 3 stalker rush that focuses on sniping the enemy's probe before they can put down a pylon. This opening outright beats a 4 gate and leaves you in a great position because you spent almost no resources on defending it, allowing you to tech and probe up quickly. A 3 stalker rush is effective against a gateway pressure build because it a) snipes the probe and b) kills the initial zealot + 2 stalker push that's meant to protect the probe. This build transitions very well into any kind of blink play because you already have two gateways and 3 stalkers on the field.
A build that I personally love to do is an extended version of the 3 stalker rush if you want to call it that, namely a 5 stalker pressure.
I'm sure there's more refined versions of it but here's how I do it:
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Cyber Core
Save chrono boost when starting Cyber Core
Core 50% done: 2nd Gateway
Only go up to 20 probes
Cyber Core done: Warpgate, Stalker (chronoboosted)
22 2nd Gas
2 more chronoboosted Stalkers
26 Pylon
2 more chronoboosted Stalkers
With that army you will shut down any 4 gate attempt easily and possible win the game outright if your opponent does not make a sentry at home to hold your pressure. If it's not a 4gate, your opponent will scout your saved chronoboost and realize that they have to play defensively. If they don't you can do a lot of damage with just your initial pressure. And even if you just force a reactive forcefield keeping you from entering their base, that's worth it because => you'll be expanding behind it.
This build is a 2 gate pressure expand. After your initial 5 stalkers, build a sentry and a zealot and expand right away. Then drop a robotics facility. This build, with good micro, should hold against almost anything, considering that your initial pressure should force a defensive reaction (additional sentries that they likely didn't want to make unless they are playing defensively themselves; a forcefield on the ramp burning energy) which in turn delay or weaken any attack they could do to punish your expand.
You might have realized that you had to cut probes earlier to make all of this happen but that's completely fine because you will still be ahead if your opponent expands themselves or attacks and you hold. It's a stable, safe build that fares well against almost anything and leaves you in a strong economic position as long as you use your scouting intel correctly and don't overcommit to defense if no attack is incoming or probes if there is one.
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Does anyone have any advice for improving Void Ray vs Void Ray engagements which have become the new metagame for PvP in HotS? Is it best to trigger the VR charge all at once, or stagger them a few at a time or something? If you use ut all at once the other guy can try to back up and reengage, unless you get straight on top of them. VR seems to beat anything else in this matchup, and since its kinda hard to get any sort if advantage Im looking for anything I can get. With how quick VRs kill everything with charge activated just focus firing doesnt seem to be enough.
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Italy12246 Posts
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Anyone good at phoenix open in pvp? I started using it recently and have been wondering how late I can reach the opponent's base (/e.. with phoenixes to scout/harass) while still being safe from blink (w/o obs) allin or dts. My guess is somewhere around 6:30, but I'd like someone's opinion on this :p
Also.. when are you supposed to be starting robo? I've been winging it :X
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On February 06 2013 08:41 dachi wrote:
Anyone good at phoenix open in pvp? I started using it recently and have been wondering how late I can reach the opponent's base while still being safe from blink (w/o obs) allin or dts. My guess is somewhere around 6:30, but I'd like someone's opinion on this :p
Also.. when are you supposed to be starting robo? I've been winging it :X
I know if you do a DT expand build and you throw the TC at 5:04 then you can gan get dts to the opponents base at slightly before 7. If you have a FF then you can delay for 15 seconds. You can throw it down around 6:30 if you prepare with a ff and have been able to deny proxy pylons pretty well. I wouldn't get in any later so that you can snipe the obs with blink all obs all-in.
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On February 06 2013 08:41 dachi wrote:
Anyone good at phoenix open in pvp? I started using it recently and have been wondering how late I can reach the opponent's base (/e.. with phoenixes to scout/harass) while still being safe from blink (w/o obs) allin or dts. My guess is somewhere around 6:30, but I'd like someone's opinion on this :p
Also.. when are you supposed to be starting robo? I've been winging it :X
It depend on what you want to do. You can do either Stargate ->second Gate ->Robo or Stargate ->second and third gate. The former is a much safer build, the latter has larger agressive potential. If you do the Robo version, I think people usually move out with their second Phoenix. If you do the Robo-less version, just rally the first Phoenix to your opponents base.
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thx guys 
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Hey guys,
Are the 3 builds mentioned at the front of this thread still up to date? Im switching races and wanted my 3 bread and butter builds for every MU. TIA.
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EPT
