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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On January 31 2013 04:16 dachi wrote: Yhea, he is right. It might be possible with korean micro but I am sadly no korean : (. I usually just play a bit more safe once I scout 10-11 gate. Do you have a replay of holding off against a 10-11gate? I recall monk saying that double gas before core has a difficult time holding against it. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On January 31 2013 04:40 eugalp wrote: I'll make sure to post if I come over one. Any replays? I'm very skeptical of the idea that you can hold a 4 gate if they manage to warp in units above your ramp. Especially since most of your unit count is sentries. The anti-4gate builds that I know place a high priority on sniping probes and denying high ground vision. Sniping probes is good, but 2 zealot 2 sentry builds rely on the two zealots being on hold pos at ramp. If you right click the probe with zealots you may let the your opponents units get by which basically is GG. If he is planting a pylon on high ground, he needs to pay for it (FF trap his zealot + stalker). You will need 3 sentry vollys to kill that probe actually(14+12+12+12=50) and I'm not actually sure if that is enough to kill a probe in time to deny a pylon. And even if it is, you will still lose to 2 probe 4 gates. If he warps in on high ground and assuming you force field trapped well enough, he will have 5 units, tho 1 stalker will be on the way so he won't really be in your opponents base so essentially 4 units in your base. You SHOULD have 2 sentry's 2 stalker 1 zealot at this point. You need to be trading units at this point, because if you stay passive he will win in the end due to more gates than you. A good trick is to bring a couple of probes(5-10 guys), they help alot actually when fighting and will also make it so that you basically shouldn't lose any ranged units to his stalker. If he walks foreward, your probes will eat him. | ||
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Maldzar
Canada33 Posts
In todays meta game, players tend to be VERY greedy (CC First, 15 hatch, Nexus first etc.). In PvT, when I see a Terran get a early CC (1 Rax FE or CC first) how do I punish him/her? "Out beating" the meta game, I guess you could call it. Just a quick note, I got the idea from How to get to masters, the masters meta game. I have tried 3 gate pressure with a Expo behind it, but with no real damage. Should I get 2 base and do a big attack (5-6 gates)?, 4 gate and expo? I am a Diamond Protoss, so I am capable of doing SOME stuff. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On January 31 2013 08:07 Maldzar wrote: I'm either blind or I didn't see this in the OP In todays meta game, players tend to be VERY greedy (CC First, 15 hatch, Nexus first etc.). In PvT, when I see a Terran get a early CC (1 Rax FE or CC first) how do I punish him/her? "Out beating" the meta game, I guess you could call it. Just a quick note, I got the idea from How to get to masters, the masters meta game. I have tried 3 gate pressure with a Expo behind it, but with no real damage. Should I get 2 base and do a big attack (5-6 gates)?, 4 gate and expo? I am a Diamond Protoss, so I am capable of doing SOME stuff. Why do you need to punish 1 rax CC? It's not a greedy build at all. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On January 31 2013 08:07 Maldzar wrote: I'm either blind or I didn't see this in the OP In todays meta game, players tend to be VERY greedy (CC First, 15 hatch, Nexus first etc.). In PvT, when I see a Terran get a early CC (1 Rax FE or CC first) how do I punish him/her? "Out beating" the meta game, I guess you could call it. Just a quick note, I got the idea from How to get to masters, the masters meta game. I have tried 3 gate pressure with a Expo behind it, but with no real damage. Should I get 2 base and do a big attack (5-6 gates)?, 4 gate and expo? I am a Diamond Protoss, so I am capable of doing SOME stuff. The most common response is to just to be greedy yourself, maybe followed by a slight gateway pressure to force bunkers (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133). Just expand immediately and get faster gas/tech. If you expect him to open this way, you could take a risk and do a 17-nexus build (either pure nexus first, or gate, assimilator, nexus). Modern 1 rax FE is pretty damn safe and you can't reactively "punish" him (do damage) for it unless he screws up in scouting you. If it is CC first, you could reactively cannon rush. I hear Sase does it, but I don't have enough knowledge to help you more here. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
On January 31 2013 08:07 Maldzar wrote: You shouldn't really be "punishing" 1 rax FE, as it's not a particularly greedy build. If you want to throw a wrench in terran's usual plans you can play styles where you chrono out a couple of zealots and delay your core somewhat to possibly get some marine/SCV kills and delay terran's bunker and CC. Otherwise you can respond with more greed of your own if you scout a fast CC first or 1 rax FE. If I scout a CC first I like to immediately pull probes off of gas and get my nexus down asap followed by my core, then I resume gas mining, get a zealot, and proceed as usual. If I scout a fast 1 rax FE I sometime like to cancel my zealot at the last second when my core finishes to get a faster nexus around 25 supply. Just make sure to follow the SCV in your base with a probe, otherwise you can get badly ebay blocked.I'm either blind or I didn't see this in the OP In todays meta game, players tend to be VERY greedy (CC First, 15 hatch, Nexus first etc.). In PvT, when I see a Terran get a early CC (1 Rax FE or CC first) how do I punish him/her? "Out beating" the meta game, I guess you could call it. Just a quick note, I got the idea from How to get to masters, the masters meta game. I have tried 3 gate pressure with a Expo behind it, but with no real damage. Should I get 2 base and do a big attack (5-6 gates)?, 4 gate and expo? I am a Diamond Protoss, so I am capable of doing SOME stuff. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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FireMonkey
Australia105 Posts
I did a gateway forge fast expand into a +1 zealot timing attack, first off I think the problem was when my zealot timing attack was way too late, i was waiting for another wave of untis via the forward pylon so i shoulda just gone in, the goal of the attack was to snipe his third, but i didn't achieve that and it was there where i found out he was going muta so I, went for stalker archon and despite the fact i had better upgrades than him all game i still lost, i just don't know how to beat it because they magic box/focus fire the archons and stalkers are terrible. The reason I got zealots aswell as stalker archon was because generally they mass lings as well as mutas (if this guy macrod well he could've had way more lings/mutas). And macro is another thing, I think I macrod better than him even though i was on 2 base and he was on 3, the reason is because i never went over 1k minerals while he went up to 3k minerals. I did however go over 1k gas but that's because I was hoping i'd be able to get more templars in.. The reason I went DT instead of HT was because it's cheaper, so should I have gone for HT/storm instead of DT archon? What's a general way to beat this nonsense? because I always lose to mass muta, cannons just become useless passed the 10 muta mark. and I never felt safe to expand because he would just fly over, kill my expo and gtfo before my army could get to him. I don't want to go pheonix because if i try to kite with phoenix i will get major tunnel vision and miss alot more warp ins than i would've. Also when he gets that much mutas and if he isn't a complete downie, he will split his mutas to get an eventual flank. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:08 FireMonkey wrote: How do I beat mass muta? Here is a replay, http://drop.sc/300868 I did a gateway forge fast expand into a +1 zealot timing attack, first off I think the problem was when my zealot timing attack was way too late, i was waiting for another wave of untis via the forward pylon so i shoulda just gone in, the goal of the attack was to snipe his third, but i didn't achieve that and it was there where i found out he was going muta so I, went for stalker archon and despite the fact i had better upgrades than him all game i still lost, i just don't know how to beat it because they magic box/focus fire the archons and stalkers are terrible. The reason I got zealots aswell as stalker archon was because generally they mass lings as well as mutas (if this guy macrod well he could've had way more lings/mutas). And macro is another thing, I think I macrod better than him even though i was on 2 base and he was on 3, the reason is because i never went over 1k minerals while he went up to 3k minerals. I did however go over 1k gas but that's because I was hoping i'd be able to get more templars in.. The reason I went DT instead of HT was because it's cheaper, so should I have gone for HT/storm instead of DT archon? What's a general way to beat this nonsense? because I always lose to mass muta, cannons just become useless passed the 10 muta mark. and I never felt safe to expand because he would just fly over, kill my expo and gtfo before my army could get to him. I don't want to go pheonix because if i try to kite with phoenix i will get major tunnel vision and miss alot more warp ins than i would've. Also when he gets that much mutas and if he isn't a complete downie, he will split his mutas to get an eventual flank. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#3.2.8 | ||
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Murlos
United States27 Posts
Particularly I've been trying to take a third base on Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak. Cloud Kingdom I wall off with two gateways and a pylon, supported by a cannon on the ramp closest to the watchtower and try to defend with immortal/sentry/stalker at my third. I make a partial wall on Daybreak at my third. However, whenever my rocks get taken down on either map I always have to defend two fronts, but I don't have enough units to split between either one. I tried looking for replays/vods of Protoss taking a third against max roach or roach/ling, but I haven't found any as most of the zergs just proceed to take a fourth instead. Any help? User was warned for this post | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On January 31 2013 16:08 FireMonkey wrote: How do I beat mass muta? Here is a replay, http://drop.sc/300868 I did a gateway forge fast expand into a +1 zealot timing attack, first off I think the problem was when my zealot timing attack was way too late, i was waiting for another wave of untis via the forward pylon so i shoulda just gone in, the goal of the attack was to snipe his third, but i didn't achieve that and it was there where i found out he was going muta so I, went for stalker archon and despite the fact i had better upgrades than him all game i still lost, i just don't know how to beat it because they magic box/focus fire the archons and stalkers are terrible. The reason I got zealots aswell as stalker archon was because generally they mass lings as well as mutas (if this guy macrod well he could've had way more lings/mutas). And macro is another thing, I think I macrod better than him even though i was on 2 base and he was on 3, the reason is because i never went over 1k minerals while he went up to 3k minerals. I did however go over 1k gas but that's because I was hoping i'd be able to get more templars in.. The reason I went DT instead of HT was because it's cheaper, so should I have gone for HT/storm instead of DT archon? What's a general way to beat this nonsense? because I always lose to mass muta, cannons just become useless passed the 10 muta mark. and I never felt safe to expand because he would just fly over, kill my expo and gtfo before my army could get to him. I don't want to go pheonix because if i try to kite with phoenix i will get major tunnel vision and miss alot more warp ins than i would've. Also when he gets that much mutas and if he isn't a complete downie, he will split his mutas to get an eventual flank. The earlier you scout mutas the easier it is to deal with them. You have to prepare for them or you will die. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
if Zerg gets a fast gas, I would prefer to open stargate and chrono out sentries after my 1st zealot...from stargate you go void ray then phoenixes | ||
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JCKE
United States52 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
On February 01 2013 09:55 MysteryMeat1 wrote: Guys I have one question. In pvz, whenever i see no 3rd base i auto assume roaches, yet i always die to two base mutas. How do you guys tell them apart? You can chrono out 2 zealots and take map control, which allows you to see the roaches (or other all-ins) coming early. At the very least, the zerg will be forced to make a bunch of extra lings if he wants to hide it, and you can try to sneak a probe in if he goes after the zealots. From there you can go stargate tech, which is pretty good against 2 base zerg in general, and scout him. If roaches come, cannon up and get a void ray first. Otherwise you can just go phoenixes and blindly shut down 2 base mutas. As long as you stop at 4-5 phoenixes and get a timely robo, you'll be fine vs. 2 base infestors as well. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On February 01 2013 10:23 dachi wrote: I suicide a probe to check for expo gases & drone count. Low drone count usually means some sort of 2base allin coming. Later, you could try suiciding a zlot to check the expo gases. And later still, if you're wondering what tech path he's going, you just get a stargate unit, obs, or hallucinated phoenix to scout. The problem with later is that 2 base roach stuff hits around 6 minutes while 2 base mutas hits a couple minutes later. If i prepare with like 4 cannons against roaches and he goes mutas then i get to far behind. I think i might just go learn how to open stargate just for these scenarios when i see a really late 3rd base or no 3rd base. | ||
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UmbraaeternuS
Chile476 Posts
On February 01 2013 09:55 MysteryMeat1 wrote: Guys I have one question. In pvz, whenever i see no 3rd base i auto assume roaches, yet i always die to two base mutas. How do you guys tell them apart? You have to suicide a probe or straight out get an observer and take a peek. Because the reality is if you don't get to see at least the unit composition, if not the buildings, you just can't tell them apart. Map prescense is KEY for this. Consider chronoing out a couple zealots to gain control of the xel naga towers and possible walkpaths to spot for roaches early on. Also, what league are you on? Specially from low plat to bronze builds tend to get really funky and weird... Maybe your scouting timing is off and since you don't see the roach warren, you just assume mutas? At what time do you usually go scouting? Do yo ever re-scout or poke the front with your first stalker? | ||
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JCKE
United States52 Posts
On February 01 2013 11:52 MysteryMeat1 wrote: The problem with later is that 2 base roach stuff hits around 6 minutes while 2 base mutas hits a couple minutes later. If i prepare with like 4 cannons against roaches and he goes mutas then i get to far behind. I think i might just go learn how to open stargate just for these scenarios when i see a really late 3rd base or no 3rd base. If suiciding a probe to check his expo drone count doesn't work for you, then stay at 2 cannons, get a sentry after your zlot, and (if you want) leave your zlot at a tower to spot roaches or lings. Add more cannons ASAP when you see lots of units. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On February 01 2013 11:52 MysteryMeat1 wrote: The problem with later is that 2 base roach stuff hits around 6 minutes while 2 base mutas hits a couple minutes later. If i prepare with like 4 cannons against roaches and he goes mutas then i get to far behind. I think i might just go learn how to open stargate just for these scenarios when i see a really late 3rd base or no 3rd base. If someone is still on 2 base, i just start actively suicide probes to check his gases at his natural, drone count etc. It is generally pretty easy to scout 2 base tech, unless he opened really fast speed there is no way he can prevent u from checking the gas and drone count at the natural and even if he has speed u can be a little sneaky. | ||
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