EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 418
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:01 kuruptt wrote: hello guys, after using countless 4 gate up to the gold league with 90% win ratio, I have started to lose to other 4 gates in this bracket. It seems like EVERYONE in this bracket uses the 4 gate. I think my macro is good enough now to play a good expand build and not rely on the 4 gate anymore. Since everyone is using the 4 gate in PvP, what is considered the best build to open up with? I know the OP suggests the modern 3 stalker rush but I came across another build order, Sase's agressive 2 gate expo build. I am wondering has anyone tried both of these builds and which one seems to be better? What are the pros using these days? From what i've been watching they seem to do a lot of 1gate expands depending on what they scout or a variation of 1-2 gate robo. I think.... | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:01 kuruptt wrote: hello guys, after using countless 4 gate up to the gold league with 90% win ratio, I have started to lose to other 4 gates in this bracket. It seems like EVERYONE in this bracket uses the 4 gate. I think my macro is good enough now to play a good expand build and not rely on the 4 gate anymore. Since everyone is using the 4 gate in PvP, what is considered the best build to open up with? I know the OP suggests the modern 3 stalker rush but I came across another build order, Sase's agressive 2 gate expo build. I am wondering has anyone tried both of these builds and which one seems to be better? What are the pros using these days? The safest/best all around build is 3 stalker rush; 1Gate tech and 2gate tech builds are also possible. I think sase's build would have troulbe vs 4gate because it delays warpgate tech for so long, but i'm not sure since i've never faced it nor seen it in a pro game. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On February 07 2013 17:19 Teoita wrote: The safest/best all around build is 3 stalker rush; 1Gate tech and 2gate tech builds are also possible. I think sase's build would have troulbe vs 4gate because it delays warpgate tech for so long, but i'm not sure since i've never faced it nor seen it in a pro game. I think sase's build initially has more units so theres a time where you can do some dmg maybe like 10-14 seconds if assuming all timings are met, afterwards you need to leave. I'm not a 100% sure but i know when i do oz 3gate pressure and they go 4gate i have about that much time in there base before i need to leave and go back home and defend. | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
On February 07 2013 17:19 Teoita wrote: The safest/best all around build is 3 stalker rush; 1Gate tech and 2gate tech builds are also possible. I think sase's build would have troulbe vs 4gate because it delays warpgate tech for so long, but i'm not sure since i've never faced it nor seen it in a pro game. Yeah I figured this as much. So the modern 3 stalker rush build from this guide is the best right? Is it still up to date? I tried the 3 stalker rush just now and I can see how its good against 4 gates however I didn't spot this pylon just under my natural and he got the warp ins. However I had a sentry out and was able to block him from coming in. At this point he had way more units then me as I am only sitting on 3 gates. I lost the game because all he did was sat outside my base while he took a natural(I saw this with my probe that was out) and was constantly building units outside my main so I couldn't even move out. How do I deal with this? I put a robo down right away and got about 2 immortals. I then went into robo bay and tried to get colo out. I got 2 out but I didn't have much gateway units and he had all stalkers and like 1 immortal and a few sentries. I got wiped out pretty quick and he just pushed up and win. Is there any good vods I can watch? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
You'd have to post the replay, but: 1) With 3 stalker rush he should NEVER be allowed to get pylons close to your base until his first round of warpins. 2) If he fails a 4gate and then tries to expand off of it it means he'll be cutting units for tech/probes. Once you get something that can go around his sentries (either blink or colossus) you can just bust down your ramp and go kill him. I don't think there are any vods of something like that happening, because it's not supposed to. You probably just got outmacroed if he failed a 4gate and then had more units than you while expanding and teching to robo. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 07 2013 17:56 kuruptt wrote: Yeah I figured this as much. So the modern 3 stalker rush build from this guide is the best right? Is it still up to date? I tried the 3 stalker rush just now and I can see how its good against 4 gates however I didn't spot this pylon just under my natural and he got the warp ins. However I had a sentry out and was able to block him from coming in. At this point he had way more units then me as I am only sitting on 3 gates. I lost the game because all he did was sat outside my base while he took a natural(I saw this with my probe that was out) and was constantly building units outside my main so I couldn't even move out. How do I deal with this? I put a robo down right away and got about 2 immortals. I then went into robo bay and tried to get colo out. I got 2 out but I didn't have much gateway units and he had all stalkers and like 1 immortal and a few sentries. I got wiped out pretty quick and he just pushed up and win. Is there any good vods I can watch? If you're sitting on 3 gates and no tech, that's pretty bad for you vs a 4gate and shouldn't happen. There's no reason to go from 3 stalker rush into another gate and no tech if you scout a 4 gate incoming. Your biggest advantage against a 4gating player is a) he cut probes and b) he cut tech. So you should capitalize on those as much as possible, which means you should already have had some sort of tech out, robo being the safest. If he tries to contain you, say "lol" and use your tech to find a way to break out. If he expanded, use your tech to kill him. If he didn't you can likely expand yourself because your tech is ahead, meaning you're safe. But that depends on what you scout. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
Edit: Jesus Christ, posting speed...you guys are really bored before GSL, too, huh? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
I'm pretty good at sniping replies in this thread :D | ||
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Spinaker
2 Posts
It's my first post here. I've already registered so I cannot create own topic and need to write here. It would be nice if somebody could help me with my replay analysis - http://speedy.sh/A655W/Entombed-Valley-10.SC2Replay Could somebody tell me what were my most deciding mistakes in this match (PvZ)? I'm silver player, I fought against gold player. Problems I've encounter: - I had a problem with proxy hatch in my 3rd because destroying rocks took a while. Destroying his exp and waiting for creep disappear also took a while. - I had problems with detection of Spire. I sent observer, but he had overseer and eliminated my scout quite efficiently. - Mutas were a great suprise for me. I had no supply block and i kept my resources low up to 9 minute. Could somebody tell me what I did wrong and what could I do with problems I've listed above? | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
So I should go robo and get out an Immortal right away? Should I get 2 immortals or just one? What about my warpgate units what should I prioritize in this matchup? The 3 stalker rush guide recommends going 2 collo all in. I am assuming on 1 base correct? I can't find a guide for this anywhere so if anyone can shed some light that will be awesome. To PvT now is a simple question. Do you guys usually go doubule forge or just 1 forge? I have tried both but I hear that just getting +armor is the best for this matchup? Also do you guys ONLy take a 3rd base if you are way ahead or you see the terran take one correct? I also have some problems with drops as well. I do build pylons around the map to spot them however I am still not that good at this game and sometimes I don't see it coming as fast as I should, would investing in 1-2 cannons be worth it or should I just warp in stalkers around my base? Thanks guys sorry if I'm asking dumb questions. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On February 07 2013 18:42 Spinaker wrote: Hey, It's my first post here. I've already registered so I cannot create own topic and need to write here. It would be nice if somebody could help me with my replay analysis - http://speedy.sh/A655W/Entombed-Valley-10.SC2Replay Could somebody tell me what were my most deciding mistakes in this match (PvZ)? I'm silver player, I fought against gold player. Problems I've encounter: - I had a problem with proxy hatch in my 3rd because destroying rocks took a while. Destroying his exp and waiting for creep disappear also took a while. - I had problems with detection of Spire. I sent observer, but he had overseer and eliminated my scout quite efficiently. - Mutas have were a great suprise for me. I had no supply block and i kept my resources low up to 9 minute. Could somebody tell me what I did wrong and what could I do with problems I've listed above? Hey, welcome to TL. Please use drop.sc to upload replays next time. Regarding your game: 1) Your opening build order is wrong. Here is how you should open vs Zerg. 2) Your opponent's build is so incredibly bad and stupid there's really no analysis to be done...once you see a hatch there you just take your army and go kill it. You don't even need to kill the rocks. His build is so bad it doesn't matter what he makes, as long as you have a decent unit count (which you did) you should be fine. 3) If he is on one base and making mutas just make one cannon per mineral line, leave a small group of stalkers at home, take the rest of your army and kill him. You had twice as much shit as him for the whole game. If you had started a twilight council at a reasonable timing (again, see the PvZ guide for more specific builds) you would have easily had blink, which is more than enough to kill his muta count 4) When you left the game you had the game won. He was on one base, with terrible economy, and you could easily have dfended his mutas with stalkers/cannons. + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2013 18:42 kuruptt wrote: Thanks a lot guys for the quick replies, has helped me tremendously. This is about my 4th week in sc2 and I'm about rank 2-3 gold league. I'm trying so hard to improve and at the moment I feel PvP is stopping me from advancing as I don't want to 4 gate once I hit higher leagues. So I should go robo and get out an Immortal right away? Should I get 2 immortals or just one? What about my warpgate units what should I prioritize in this matchup? The 3 stalker rush guide recommends going 2 collo all in. I am assuming on 1 base correct? I can't find a guide for this anywhere so if anyone can shed some light that will be awesome. To PvT now is a simple question. Do you guys usually go doubule forge or just 1 forge? I have tried both but I hear that just getting +armor is the best for this matchup? Also do you guys ONLy take a 3rd base if you are way ahead or you see the terran take one correct? I also have some problems with drops as well. I do build pylons around the map to spot them however I am still not that good at this game and sometimes I don't see it coming as fast as I should, would investing in 1-2 cannons be worth it or should I just warp in stalkers around my base? Thanks guys sorry if I'm asking dumb questions. PvP: Cecil's post is slightly outdated. Modern one base colossus off one base goes with 2 immortals and a single colossus with no range. Older versions used to go with 2 colossi, sometimes with range. Regarding obs vs immortal, i go obs first if i see no aggression (no units being active on the map vs my 3 stalkers, he took a fast ish second gas, he used up all his chrono), and immortal first if he's doing something suspicious (pushing on the map etc). As far as unit composition goes, in early game stalkers are generally pretty good because they can kite zealots easily and sentries aren't great unless you are defending a 4gate or something like that becuase they are quite weak offensively. Once colossi hit the field, zealots are much better than stalkers because they suck less vs colossus fire. In general if both sides expand and tech to stalkers, neither wants to make stalkers unless absolutely necessary (say, you need a group of 10ish stalkers to defend phoenixes). PvT: the reason armor is favoured over attack is that zealots under guardian shield with armor upgrades are incredibly tanky vs marines and marauders. Regarding single vs double forge openings, it's mostly a stylistic choice. Double forge sets you up for an incredibly strong 3/3 maxed push at 16 ish minutes, but it's a bit harder to defend Terran aggression. Single forge gives you more units, is a bit easier to execute, but is a bit weaker when you first max out. I personally go single forge every PvT because i feel comfortable with it; i add a second forge when the Terran takes his third. Regardig taking a third: the standard way to take a third is to do so when the Terran backs out after his initial medivac aggression. This is when your AoE (storm or colossus kicks in) and before he can have the appropriate counter to it, so it should be easy to defend. On the other hand if he's doing something other than bio (say, a marine/thor/banshee allin) you want to stay on 2 bases because on the long run your army will be stronger than his anyway. You don't need to be way ahead to take a third. As far as drop defense goes, read the OP. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 07 2013 18:42 kuruptt wrote: Thanks a lot guys for the quick replies, has helped me tremendously. This is about my 4th week in sc2 and I'm about rank 2-3 gold league. I'm trying so hard to improve and at the moment I feel PvP is stopping me from advancing as I don't want to 4 gate once I hit higher leagues. So I should go robo and get out an Immortal right away? Should I get 2 immortals or just one? What about my warpgate units what should I prioritize in this matchup? The 3 stalker rush guide recommends going 2 collo all in. I am assuming on 1 base correct? I can't find a guide for this anywhere so if anyone can shed some light that will be awesome. To PvT now is a simple question. Do you guys usually go doubule forge or just 1 forge? I have tried both but I hear that just getting +armor is the best for this matchup? Also do you guys ONLy take a 3rd base if you are way ahead or you see the terran take one correct? I also have some problems with drops as well. I do build pylons around the map to spot them however I am still not that good at this game and sometimes I don't see it coming as fast as I should, would investing in 1-2 cannons be worth it or should I just warp in stalkers around my base? Thanks guys sorry if I'm asking dumb questions. If you go robo, an observer first is the best choice all round. Though that depends on what you scout. If you see an aggressive build from your opponent (indicated by lots of chronoboost saved up and spent on units or warpgate research), you can go immortal first but generally you'll be safe without that, assuming you use your units correctly. The 2 collosus all in is pretty outdated and I wouldn't recommend it. There is a 1 base colossus all in but it moves out with one colossus without range, otherwise your opponent is given too much time to prepare for your attack. Immortals in PvP are what keeps you safe early. If you feel like your opponent might get aggressive, keep building immortals. PvP is all about knowing when to invest in units and when to tech and expand as greedily as at all possible. Depending on what you scout, your warpgate units should be in sync with your main army. If you focus on a robo based army vs another robo build, you can pretty much skip stalkers completely. They're expensive and of no use to you against immortals, zealots and sentries, which is the standard robo PvP unit composition. The longer the game goes, the more useless your initial gateway units become (stalker, zealots and sentries). Zealots with charge are good up until the point of mass colossus, after that you want to get rid of them as cost effectively as possible and fill their place with immortals and archons. I personally recommend keeping a single sentry for guardian shield, even though it'll get shredded quickly it might still make the difference in huge laser wars. In PvT a lot of your build depends on what you scout with your initial observer. The faster you can get it into your opponents base while being safe, the better for you. Now, about the forges. It all depends on what style you play. There's two general choices. You can either play a) a gateway centric style with templar tech off 2 bases or b) a colossus style off 2 bases. Either way, you'll have to make that choice on 2 bases. How many forges you make is kinda self explanatory here. Unupgraded gateway units are BAD against MMM. So if you play a chargeot/archon/HT style, double forge is an absolute must. With a colossus build you can play a broader scale I feel, depending on what you scout. If you see a third CC, that means that terran is focusing heavily on economy and you won't be under pressure for some time. It means that their medivacs and upgrades will be later but once their economy kicks in, they'll catch up to you fast. A stable way to keep an advantage against that is in upgrades because no matter how good a terran's economy is, their upgrades still won't complete any faster. So you can go double forge and take a rather safe third base and make upgrades your advantage in the game. If the terran does a super standard +1 medivac moveout, which you will see with your observer, the allround safest colossus build is robo bay + single forge, upgrading +1 armor and adding your second forge later. The reason why double forge might be risky is because the heavy focus on upgrades cuts into your unit count and it might be easier to pull you apart. What you want to do vs terran midgame aggression is keep stalkers in the main, split up from your core army (zealot, sentry, colossus, maybe initial immortals if you built any) that defends the front. If you focus on colossus, blink first is a good idea to protect colossi from vikings. Investing in cannons is always a good idea if you plan to move out any time soon because you'll be taking the stalkers in the main with you. The general transition in PvT from Colossus -> templar or vice versa happens around the time you take your third base. You can take fast third bases rather safely if your opponent goes double ebay because, as double forge does with your army, their unit count will be lower and upgrades don't kick in immediately and their medivac count will also be lower. PvZ just immortal all in, lol.  Man, got sniped again | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Also you people are slow >.< | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 07 2013 19:23 Teoita wrote: You can go single forge Templar and double forge colossus easily. Forge count and aoe choice aren't related. Not necessarily but the allround safest and most standard builds are doube forge templar and, as you said, stylisticly chosen double/single forge colossus which I think he was asking for. BTW, got my own question regarding PvZ. Been playing around with a build that drops double stargate before taking a 4th to defend an incoming BL push. I think what makes it viable now is the IT nerf. I squeeze in +1 air armor along the way because the void rays I make only need to stay alive against IT/corruptor fire. You think it's viable? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Regarding +1 armor on void rays: yeah i thought the same a while ago, especially since sometimes attack upgrade void rays actually kill shit slower because they end up charging later. It's definitely worth playing around. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Haven't seen Rain's templar build yet actually, at least not actively noticed it. | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
So 1 base colo isn't effective anymore? I am mostly talking about defending a 4 gate with 3 stalker rush on what I should be doing afterwards. I was thinking of going 1 base colo all in but if it's not effective then I will just go for the standard macro game in which case I know that whoever has better collosus/zealots/archons with better attack upgrades will win the game in a PvP matchup right? For PvT I go collosus play so I'm probably going to stick with 1 forge as that seems to be the most effective. Get 3rd nexus when its safe or when terran expands + 2nd forge and move into storm tech. Thanks for the info guys! PvZ I am working hard on the immortal all in, its so effective but at the moment I hardly have any trouble against zergs in this league. I will probably need to optimize it better with the timings and such. I'll leave the questions on this for another time =p Thanks a lot for the info guys, I will return once again and hopefully I'll be in platinum or diamond before I need to ask more questions! | ||
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