EPTAlso, 1base colossus works fine. I think it's a good first build to learn in PvP.
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 419
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Also, 1base colossus works fine. I think it's a good first build to learn in PvP. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
1. economically screwed, you're so far behind--meaning you have to kill your opponent now or you'll get grinded out 2. so far ahead in army that you just need to step on forcefields so you can walk up your opponent's ramp and kill him Sometimes they go hand-in-hand. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 07 2013 19:55 ineversmile wrote: 1 base colo in PvP is a reactive all-in that you should do if you're either: 1. economically screwed, you're so far behind--meaning you have to kill your opponent now or you'll get grinded out 2. so far ahead in army that you just need to step on forcefields so you can walk up your opponent's ramp and kill him Sometimes they go hand-in-hand. Actually you can just plan on doing it from the very first second and it'll still do fairly well. Gets pretty hard countered by good blink players though. All you need to do is snipe the colossus. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On February 07 2013 19:55 ineversmile wrote: 1 base colo in PvP is a reactive all-in that you should do if you're either: 1. economically screwed, you're so far behind--meaning you have to kill your opponent now or you'll get grinded out 2. so far ahead in army that you just need to step on forcefields so you can walk up your opponent's ramp and kill him Sometimes they go hand-in-hand. No it isn't. But then again arguing with you is useless so i won't bother. | ||
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StrifeIsBack
United States31 Posts
I'm sure I'll have questions, so /sub and stuff...and good to know that Teoita fires back really quickly  . Won my first match as toss PvT, 1Gate Expand (eco) went ZealotSentryImmoColoss vs MMMT and did fairly well without upgrades...but it sucks being so bad after the layoff | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On February 07 2013 19:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Actually you can just plan on doing it from the very first second and it'll still do fairly well. Gets pretty hard countered by good blink players though. All you need to do is snipe the colossus. No, you can't really just one base colossus blindly anymore. Blink builds aren't as prevalent anymore so they're not the issue of hard-countering as much as the fact that stargate openers were virtually non-existent when this build was in it's prime more than a year ago. You'll have barely any stalkers and will have to delay your colossus to get them out, or just lose a ton of probes and just roll over -- assuming they don't just kill you with 2-3 phoenixes and a 3/4 gate outright. That, and this build is pretty slow and most builds have a fast robo. They'll see it coming and have a decent amount of time to prepare. It's not really reactive because you have to drop the robotics bay fast to hit the timing which is a huge commitment, but it's terrible to do blind, hoping your opponent isn't good/doesn't go blink or phoenixes. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On February 08 2013 03:27 Teoita wrote: It's as good as a risky allin as any. It's true it's not a go to build as much as it was 2 years ago, but it's doable. Off the top of my head, there's been 2-3 games in this season of Proleague when one P used it. I didn't see them, what builds did the opposing toss' open and which variation of the all-in was used? I can see it working in a pro league environment with preparation, but as a build to learn PvP with on the ladder it'll eventually slow you down as you reach diamond/masters where the timings are much more solid and consistent. Before that point it's as good as any all-in. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 03:24 rd wrote: No, you can't really just one base colossus blindly anymore. Blink builds aren't as prevalent anymore so they're not the issue of hard-countering as much as the fact that stargate openers were virtually non-existent when this build was in it's prime more than a year ago. You'll have barely any stalkers and will have to delay your colossus to get them out, or just lose a ton of probes and just roll over -- assuming they don't just kill you with 2-3 phoenixes and a 3/4 gate outright. That, and this build is pretty slow and most builds have a fast robo. They'll see it coming and have a decent amount of time to prepare. It's not really reactive because you have to drop the robotics bay fast to hit the timing which is a huge commitment, but it's terrible to do blind, hoping your opponent isn't good/doesn't go blink or phoenixes. ?? Blink builds are still as viable and often used as they were before. It depends on maps of course but if a map allows for blink play, you'll see blink play. The thing with 1 base colossus is that it takes such a long time to set up that you can't really play it reactively. Stargate builds counter it really well, yes. But as said above, if you're gonna do a risky all in, this is as good as any. BTW, got another question regarding PvP this time. I know you can 3/4 gate blink reactively but what's the indicator that tells you it's a good idea? A good example for this is HerO vs Rain from their PL match. HerO scouted Rain's base and reactively went for 3 gate blink. Would've worked out perfectly if it hadn't been Rain who managed to just baaaarely defend it. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
In general i guess it can be ok vs fast double gas because that's more likely to be either phoenix or robo expand, and blink does well vs both if you can execute correctly. I don't know what triggered the decision to go pure blink rather than robo/blink though. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On February 08 2013 04:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: ?? Blink builds are still as viable and often used as they were before. It depends on maps of course but if a map allows for blink play, you'll see blink play. The thing with 1 base colossus is that it takes such a long time to set up that you can't really play it reactively. Stargate builds counter it really well, yes. But as said above, if you're gonna do a risky all in, this is as good as any. BTW, got another question regarding PvP this time. I know you can 3/4 gate blink reactively but what's the indicator that tells you it's a good idea? A good example for this is HerO vs Rain from their PL match. HerO scouted Rain's base and reactively went for 3 gate blink. Would've worked out perfectly if it hadn't been Rain who managed to just baaaarely defend it. I never said blink isn't viable, I said blink isn't as prevalent as it used to be when 1 base colossus was actually commonplace in both professional and high level ladder games. Robo/TC blink was what killed it, which at the time in 2011 accounted for 60-75% of openings in PvP. PvP is now way more diverse in build selection -- i.e., blink is not as prevalent as it used to be. I also acknowledged one base colossus cannot be played reactively. At a certain point it's as good as any all-in, but once you fight other solid PvP players it's way too specialized to do blindly on ladder. | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
http://drop.sc/302926 Some notes: 1) I don't know how to react to double eng bay. Go double forge asap? 2) I think I could have ended the game at the 18 min push. Because I had no forward pylons, I couldn't reinforce... 3) I really need pylons around the map, to get vision and perhaps I could have punished those greedy expos. 4) I have no idea what to do in PvT after 20 minutes. 5) Is there anything wrong with my build? Late Twilight Council? Please feel free to criticise my play! | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On February 08 2013 03:32 rd wrote: I didn't see them, what builds did the opposing toss' open and which variation of the all-in was used? I can see it working in a pro league environment with preparation, but as a build to learn PvP with on the ladder it'll eventually slow you down as you reach diamond/masters where the timings are much more solid and consistent. Before that point it's as good as any all-in. I'm masters and my timings are not solid nor consistent. More than they used to be? Yup. But even my most practiced long term builds start to deviate by 10-20 seconds come the 9 minute mark from what a pro would do. So diamond is definitely not going to have crisp timings. Holding a one base collossus all in is hard if you go for economy. If you play blink obs wrong its still hard. And if you try to stargate play unless the collossus opener really does all in you, you could still lose a longer game if they vastly out play you. If you want an all in pvp nothing gets easier to execute than the collossus one base no range push. Simple as that. Blink all ins require timing, micro and positioning as well as the right map to do it on. Stargate all ins rely on early timings and hoping they didn't go DT. Your reasoning against collossus all ins can be countered with the same reasoning toward stargate all ins. If you commit to 4 phoenixes and 4 gates and an attack, if they went DT you die straight up. If you go blink all in with no observer and the other person opens robo you lose. So its not really fair to nitpick at collossus all ins being bad. Let's not forget this discussion started with a silver player looking for advice. And collossus play is a safe good way to learn how to properly manage gas and pylons as protoss. The skeleton for the build can also be adapted with some small adjustments to be a robo expand build in WoL (not as much in HotS atm though). | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On February 08 2013 08:01 ZeromuS wrote: I'm masters and my timings are not solid nor consistent. More than they used to be? Yup. But even my most practiced long term builds start to deviate by 10-20 seconds come the 9 minute mark from what a pro would do. So diamond is definitely not going to have crisp timings. Holding a one base collossus all in is hard if you go for economy. If you play blink obs wrong its still hard. And if you try to stargate play unless the collossus opener really does all in you, you could still lose a longer game if they vastly out play you. If you want an all in pvp nothing gets easier to execute than the collossus one base no range push. Simple as that. Blink all ins require timing, micro and positioning as well as the right map to do it on. Stargate all ins rely on early timings and hoping they didn't go DT. Your reasoning against collossus all ins can be countered with the same reasoning toward stargate all ins. If you commit to 4 phoenixes and 4 gates and an attack, if they went DT you die straight up. If you go blink all in with no observer and the other person opens robo you lose. So its not really fair to nitpick at collossus all ins being bad. Let's not forget this discussion started with a silver player looking for advice. And collossus play is a safe good way to learn how to properly manage gas and pylons as protoss. The skeleton for the build can also be adapted with some small adjustments to be a robo expand build in WoL (not as much in HotS atm though). I don't even see the point of posting this? You literally just rephrased everything I said. When I said solid and consistent, the keyword was 'more,' which would denote that such descriptions were relative to lower level players -- especially in low econ PvP of all match-ups. In diamond and especially masters and up, it'll become much less consistent. Below those levels it's perfectly fine, especially for a silver level player. Why are you quoting me and suggesting I implied it didn't work at any level? Especially in the context of a silver level player, why is it relevant to make an argument that you can outplay a hard counter when it's presumably a pvp of even skill level? That's not a realistic expectation to have, and it's not even relevant anyways since stargate openers aren't that common (as common as I remember them anyways) when they get all-inned easily at lower levels regardless. Comparing all-ins at this level is moot. You've misinterpreted my post entirely, which outlined why one base colossus in high level PvP is an extremely unideal -- if not flat out bad build to do blind. If you want an all-in for PvP that teaches you basic mechanics though, just go three gate robo and kill them with forcefields and immortals. It's not as powerful but it doesn't even matter as it's much more forgiving against other one base all-ins, and later on helps assist you on making reads with observers and transitioning into robo fe's at higher levels. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On February 08 2013 05:46 Kinon wrote: Hello, I have a replay of a PvT I played today, and I would love if any of you would analyse it. http://drop.sc/302926 Some notes: 1) I don't know how to react to double eng bay. Go double forge asap? 2) I think I could have ended the game at the 18 min push. Because I had no forward pylons, I couldn't reinforce... 3) I really need pylons around the map, to get vision and perhaps I could have punished those greedy expos. 4) I have no idea what to do in PvT after 20 minutes. 5) Is there anything wrong with my build? Late Twilight Council? Please feel free to criticise my play! Just watched the replay. At the 9 minute mark you have 43 probes, at the 12 minute mark you have 43 probes and he has 65 scvs and 3 orbitals, so 3 mules. You lost because you cut probes, had a tech advantage and didnt all in. So you either 1) Adapt that build to be the Squirtle collossus all in with a lot of stalker sentry and 3 collossus chronoed out with no upgrades or 2) You work on your macro so that you arent behind the terran ever. At the 9 minute mark he has 53 scvs to your 43. With 3 mules from 3 OC he has effectively an extra 12 scvs from them. One mule is worth about 4 probes so you need to always be up on probes to scvs. The thing about terran is their scvs arent mining while building so as long as you are ahead on probes even with mules, their economy is even with yours. Also, you need to have your third nexus go down when you see that they have a third CC or OC. You can take a third vs a 3 base terran with 3 gates so long as you move up to 6 gates before their stim medivac timing hits which should hit later if they take a fast 3rd OC. But in the end, your probe production loses you the game, you are significantly behind the terran so any even or slightly inefficient trade the terran makes puts you further behind if they macro well. So I stopped watching the replay at 12 minutes because you didnt make probes for 3 minutes that game. If you think about it, 3 minutes out of 12 is 25% of the time you were on the map at that point. Cutting workers for 25% of the game is not good unless you are fully saturated and the game lasts for an hour. I think if you work on the probe production and take your third before adding extra gates if you see a 3rd CC you will see your win rate improve a lot. Having the extra money means that efficient trades for you end up being a net gain and not a net loss. It will also help your tech transition more effectively and your upgrades and army size should remain on par if not exceed the opponent. Remember also that a faster 3rd terran OC, means a faster 3rd nexus which means more chronoboost for faster upgrades AND a stronger 3-3 timing for you. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On February 08 2013 09:44 MysteryMeat1 wrote: I saw it on Naniwa's stream today when he was playing against kas. He scouts kas going CC first and reactively 4gate robo all-ins. Its been pretty successful for me so far just wanted to know if any other protoss players have tried it. I would need more info on what naniwa is doing but i prefer macro builds to all ins personally  | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
Kas loves going 3 CC too. Plus, they both have similarly high MMRs, and play each other all the time, so I don't doubt that there are mindgames at play. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Also, you are NOT behind a Terran going CC first with 1gate FE. The difference in income and worker count between 1rax FE and CC first isn't all that big. | ||
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