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On January 29 2013 02:56 Mavvie wrote: I can never seem to survive 2raxes....like, every 2rax in the book kills me every time. At least on entombed valley. Here's a game against a low masters Terran where I scouted the 2rax early enough, went for 30 nexus 30 gateway x2 and didn't even get a robo (my mistake), and still got brutally slaughtered by the 2rax. Like, demolished and it wasn't even close. http://drop.sc/299510I'm still at a loss for what I'm meant to do against this play...I must be missing something lol
When i scout a 2 rax i delay my nexus a bit longer than 30 supply and instead opt to throw down 3 gateways and just flat out crush any push that is going to come hit me. I also keep a proxy pylon close to his base so that if he does start running away i can warp in units and cut them off. Depending on how hard you crush the push you can camp his natural and delay his cc for quite a long time and poke up the ramp and kill him.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 29 2013 02:56 Mavvie wrote:I can never seem to survive 2raxes....like, every 2rax in the book kills me every time. At least on entombed valley. Here's a game against a low masters Terran where I scouted the 2rax early enough, went for 30 nexus 30 gateway x2 and didn't even get a robo (my mistake), and still got brutally slaughtered by the 2rax. Like, demolished and it wasn't even close. http://drop.sc/299510I'm still at a loss for what I'm meant to do against this play...I must be missing something lol
Notes as i watch the replay:
1) 4 chronos on the nexus is too many. You want to use 3 on probes and then hold off until you scout him.
2) Moving out with the zealot and stalker is kinda unecessary since you already saw he was 2raxing anyway.
3) Your chrono usage is inefficient. Either focus on units off your gates (more or less like mc's 1gate fe), or on getting warpgate tech up faster (kcdc's build). I've been using kcdc's build and it rapes 2rax outright.
4) Stay up your ramp until your first round of units is done. You can warp in on the low ground and engage once you get your first 3 warpgate units. Losing your zealot for free was huge
5) Try not to cut probes. Delaying the robo for units is fine, but a healthy probe count is more important.
6) If you get a sentry, guardian shield.
7) Do not be afraid to pull a handful of probes when you first engage.
8) Once you first hold the pressure you can counter, so try to have a pylon out on the map. Often times, this is game ending or close to it.
Here's a replay of mine http://drop.sc/299978 His build is a bit slower, but that's a good idea of what to do vs it. Notice how the probes save my ass despite my screwup with the zealots.
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On January 29 2013 07:29 HereAndNow wrote:
If you're not planning on going Robo tech (planning Templar late game, generally), is it still worth it to build a Robo early on to get Observers? Or should you rely more on Hallucinated Phoenixes?
what match up are you talking about?
you almost always have to get a robo with twilight tech in pvt so you dont die to cloak banshees, and it's really nice to have tin pvz so you can scout all ins or mutas switches, or other wonky shit.
pvp isn't AS necessary, but either way you'll scout with real phoenixes or blink stalkers, or be going for robo.
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Against 2-rax, if I build gateways 2 and 3 before my Nexus, am I still ahead? If I scout a rax with an add-on or 2 raxxes, I build two gates and a Sentry at the time I'd normally build my Nexus, and then build a Nexus shortly afterwards. I find at my level (Diamond) it tends to make me a lot safer vs. 2-rax, and it's nearly as economical as gate - nexus - 2 gates.
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On January 29 2013 09:46 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 07:29 HereAndNow wrote:
If you're not planning on going Robo tech (planning Templar late game, generally), is it still worth it to build a Robo early on to get Observers? Or should you rely more on Hallucinated Phoenixes? what match up are you talking about? you almost always have to get a robo with twilight tech in pvt so you dont die to cloak banshees, and it's really nice to have tin pvz so you can scout all ins or mutas switches, or other wonky shit. pvp isn't AS necessary, but either way you'll scout with real phoenixes or blink stalkers, or be going for robo.
You will almost never die to cloak banshees if you make the correct read that he won't be going factory, even if you don't see the gas by just poking his ramp/natural. It'd have to be delayed cloak off of a 1 rax fe which I've never even seen before.
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On January 29 2013 11:47 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 09:46 mizU wrote:On January 29 2013 07:29 HereAndNow wrote:
If you're not planning on going Robo tech (planning Templar late game, generally), is it still worth it to build a Robo early on to get Observers? Or should you rely more on Hallucinated Phoenixes? what match up are you talking about? you almost always have to get a robo with twilight tech in pvt so you dont die to cloak banshees, and it's really nice to have tin pvz so you can scout all ins or mutas switches, or other wonky shit. pvp isn't AS necessary, but either way you'll scout with real phoenixes or blink stalkers, or be going for robo. You will almost never die to cloak banshees if you make the correct read that he won't be going factory, even if you don't see the gas by just poking his ramp/natural. It'd have to be delayed cloak off of a 1 rax fe which I've never even seen before.
This is true, however i still like to get a robo when i go templar tech in PvT, and i just make a ton of observers with it. The extra vision is incredibly helpful against drops, especially if you go charge before blink. I've seen Parting go up to 8 observers vs Alive on Daybreak, obviously u probably don't need that many, but it's almost never a bad thing to have a healthy number of observers, since u don't need to the robo build time for colossi anyway.
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On January 29 2013 12:31 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 11:47 rd wrote:On January 29 2013 09:46 mizU wrote:On January 29 2013 07:29 HereAndNow wrote:
If you're not planning on going Robo tech (planning Templar late game, generally), is it still worth it to build a Robo early on to get Observers? Or should you rely more on Hallucinated Phoenixes? what match up are you talking about? you almost always have to get a robo with twilight tech in pvt so you dont die to cloak banshees, and it's really nice to have tin pvz so you can scout all ins or mutas switches, or other wonky shit. pvp isn't AS necessary, but either way you'll scout with real phoenixes or blink stalkers, or be going for robo. You will almost never die to cloak banshees if you make the correct read that he won't be going factory, even if you don't see the gas by just poking his ramp/natural. It'd have to be delayed cloak off of a 1 rax fe which I've never even seen before. This is true, however i still like to get a robo when i go templar tech in PvT, and i just make a ton of observers with it. The extra vision is incredibly helpful against drops, especially if you go charge before blink. I've seen Parting go up to 8 observers vs Alive on Daybreak, obviously u probably don't need that many, but it's almost never a bad thing to have a healthy number of observers, since u don't need to the robo build time for colossi anyway.
I never said don't get a robo or observers at all, I'm just saying you don't need it right away if you're not getting colossus first. When going ht first I don't get my robo until immediately before or after I get my third, which is at between the 9 to 11 minute mark. Three base is the point where you really want the observers.
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Adding the robo is kind of a gut feeling. If you feel hes going banshees than get the obs. But i think adding it around the time you take your 3rd is probably a normal timing. At this point ghosts will be coming out and you need obs otherwise you will die to cloacked ghosts that emp your whole entire army.
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Italy12246 Posts
It really depends on the build.
The big strength of the robo is that it allows you to scout a fast 3cc and/or double eng bay and take a faster third off of it, which you can't do reactively if you are playing blind. It's also better vs 2base tech builds for obvious reasons, but that's pretty rare so eh. Imo if you decide to skip the robo, you might as well do some 3/4 gate aggression and have a read off of that. Personally, i almost always go 3gate robo into tech.
Against 2-rax, if I build gateways 2 and 3 before my Nexus, am I still ahead? If I scout a rax with an add-on or 2 raxxes, I build two gates and a Sentry at the time I'd normally build my Nexus, and then build a Nexus shortly afterwards. I find at my level (Diamond) it tends to make me a lot safer vs. 2-rax, and it's nearly as economical as gate - nexus - 2 gates.
A solid 1gate FE build will have a round of warpgate units in time for when the 2rax hits, just like 3gate fe will, so it's unecessary to get the faster 2 gates anyway; you aren't really gaining much from them. Additionally, you will be fighting on the low ground regardless, so you might as well have that faster nexus.
If you crush his push (which you should) you will still be ahead, but delaying a nexus for that long is not nearly as economical as 1gate fe under any circumstance.
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Really greedy Gate Nexus builds barely have the units in time vs a crisply executed 2 Rax. When you scout a 2 Rax it's important to bring around half a dozen Probes from your main to mine your nat, regardless of the inefficiency of this compared to rallying individually, you'll need these to delay so that you can safely warp in units in time.
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Italy12246 Posts
He was talking about 1gate fe vs 3gate fe so i assumed we are talking gas/core FE, gateway/nexus builds are entirely different (and i don't know them well enough to comment on them).
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Sure, I was just throwing that into the mix.
To be honest, if you're delaying your Nexus so much that you can spot a 2 Rax before dropping it I think you should be doing a greedier opening I the first place.
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Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with nexus first?
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with any sort of econimical opening getting a nexus early in the game?
(I'm platinum level protoss)(Master Terran)
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On January 29 2013 20:50 KAB00000000M wrote:
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with nexus first?
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with any sort of econimical opening getting a nexus early in the game?
(I'm platinum level protoss)(Master Terran)
no.
yes if you defend the initial zealot/stalker pressure and the first warpin very cost efficient for example with a 3 stalker opening (has to be ridiculously cost efficient like losing 50% max of what he loses). you can expand afterwards and generally thats a pretty safe followup if you get a robo behind it aswell.
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There are some 1 Gate expands that work for me in high Master's. It's really greedy (in that I go Gate nexus robo gate, so greedy tech and unit wise). I also don't scout 'til I drop the Nexus. Basically I need to exert myself on the map really early by scouting very diligently with my initial Gate units (I end up getting 4 from my first gate before wg - zeal, stalker, sentry, stalker). The only build that outright beats this is blind 4 gate in my experience, everything else is holdable.
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On January 29 2013 18:54 Teoita wrote:It really depends on the build. The big strength of the robo is that it allows you to scout a fast 3cc and/or double eng bay and take a faster third off of it, which you can't do reactively if you are playing blind. It's also better vs 2base tech builds for obvious reasons, but that's pretty rare so eh. Imo if you decide to skip the robo, you might as well do some 3/4 gate aggression and have a read off of that. Personally, i almost always go 3gate robo into tech. Show nested quote +
Against 2-rax, if I build gateways 2 and 3 before my Nexus, am I still ahead? If I scout a rax with an add-on or 2 raxxes, I build two gates and a Sentry at the time I'd normally build my Nexus, and then build a Nexus shortly afterwards. I find at my level (Diamond) it tends to make me a lot safer vs. 2-rax, and it's nearly as economical as gate - nexus - 2 gates.
A solid 1gate FE build will have a round of warpgate units in time for when the 2rax hits, just like 3gate fe will, so it's unecessary to get the faster 2 gates anyway; you aren't really gaining much from them. Additionally, you will be fighting on the low ground regardless, so you might as well have that faster nexus. If you crush his push (which you should) you will still be ahead, but delaying a nexus for that long is not nearly as economical as 1gate fe under any circumstance.
I disagree.
with a 2 rax opening you can have 4 marines and 1 marauder at your opponents natural by 5:30 on Entombed cross positions with an additional marauder and 2 marines being halfway through the map. this is way before the first warpin of a 1 gate FE hits even if you spend only 3 chrono's on nexus and rest on units/wg which is the absolute minimum.
in fact it even hits at the natural before a 3 gate opening has its its first warpin (which is around 5:45-6:00 most of the time depending on how economical it was and how tight the build was played out).
another aspect is that the buildorder of the 2 rax is more straight forward. its way easier to execute compared to any protoss opening whether it is 3 gate or 1 gate FE because you have to chronoboost manage on the fly depending on map and spawns + timing of move out of the terran / 1 marauder or 2 marauder, so it is more likely that the protoss is late on timings compared to the terran. and you get punished more for being late with a 1 gate FE compared to 3g.
on certain maps/positions its not possible to defend a 2 rax and being ahead afterwards with a 1 gate expand if the Terran plays it out well. entombed is a good example for that, especially non cross spawns.
also generally, 3g openings are considered good against 2 rax openings and its easier to defend 2 rax with it. especially for lower level players it might be way easier to defend it with 3g for reasons I listed above.
basically defending it with 1 gate fe is harder but economically more rewarding but a 3 gate defends it in a more reliable way (its almost impossible to fuck up if you scouted its a 2 rax, which you should have when you do a 3g opening).
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Assuming those timings are right (and they do seem to be so), that hardly changes much. The Toss should have a Zealot and 2 Stalkers by that time. Pulling a handful of Probes to force the Marines to kite, and Microsoft them back appropriately (it's important that Probes should only be used as minor tanks and forcing the Marjnes to kite only for a short time, a small buffer period is all that's needed for your own Gateway units to overwhelm the Terran's).
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On January 29 2013 21:25 Gumbi wrote:
Assuming those timings are right (and they do seem to be so), that hardly changes much. The Toss should have a Zealot and 2 Stalkers by that time. Pulling a handful of Probes to force the Marines to kite, and Microsoft them back appropriately (it's important that Probes should only be used as minor tanks and forcing the Marjnes to kite only for a short time, a small buffer period is all that's needed for your own Gateway units to overwhelm the Terran's).
I dont say its impossible to defend it, on higher levels thats the common way to defend it (especially because most of the time the terran doesnt show its 100% a 2 rax before you have to decide whether you drop a nexus or gas/2 extra gates) but what I say is its easier and more reliable to defend it with a 3g. you will be more ahead in units, less in eco, but you are still ahead just in a different way compared to 1gate nexus defense.
also the initial question was if he is still ahead with 3 gates before expand and if he defends the 2 rax, the answer is yes.
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Oh, I agree definitely. Simpler builds are always the way to go in lower leagues.
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I was playing pvp and I went 2gate robo (3 stalker opening) into an robo expand, but the other protoss somehow did everthing just faster than me and won the game. The only thing i scouted i was faster was my collosus tech so I tried to expand on that lead and go double robo delaying a third because i had no money to build double collosus and get a third. Then i notice he is keeping up with my collosus production + also has a third. While mine hasn't started yet. I also went for relatively quick upgrades so I hope i can build on that lead and hope to put some pressure on him and kill his third with my superior army while i'm getting my third up, but his upgrades kick in just before the battle, he went for double forge. After that failed push where i lost my army (He also lost most of his army though), it just snowballed to my defeat. This is the replay. I'm diamond protoss. I hope someone can help me out. Should I scout differently/more consistently? Was there any timing window to punish his greedy(?) play?
Replay: http://drop.sc/300462
Thanks in advance
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