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On January 29 2013 21:03 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 20:50 KAB00000000M wrote:
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with nexus first?
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with any sort of econimical opening getting a nexus early in the game?
(I'm platinum level protoss)(Master Terran) no. yes if you defend the initial zealot/stalker pressure and the first warpin very cost efficient for example with a 3 stalker opening (has to be ridiculously cost efficient like losing 50% max of what he loses). you can expand afterwards and generally thats a pretty safe followup if you get a robo behind it aswell.
What about 1Gate Robo expand? Or is that too slow to handle the pressure?
(Sorry if this sounds too obvious to answer. I am bad at toss)
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What maps do you downvote and why?
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On January 30 2013 00:18 KAB00000000M wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 21:03 Kaitokid wrote:On January 29 2013 20:50 KAB00000000M wrote:
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with nexus first?
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with any sort of econimical opening getting a nexus early in the game?
(I'm platinum level protoss)(Master Terran) no. yes if you defend the initial zealot/stalker pressure and the first warpin very cost efficient for example with a 3 stalker opening (has to be ridiculously cost efficient like losing 50% max of what he loses). you can expand afterwards and generally thats a pretty safe followup if you get a robo behind it aswell. What about 1Gate Robo expand? Or is that too slow to handle the pressure? (Sorry if this sounds too obvious to answer. I am bad at toss)
You'd have a tough time vs 2 Rax, but it's probably possible; to hold. But it would be weaker than 1 Gate expand into 3 Gates.
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I'm just trying to find a way to play economical vs protoss. Because it seems like every PvP is about 4gate.
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What league? Learn a proper Robo based build, something simple like 3 Gate Robo will crush a 4 Gate.
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On January 30 2013 01:37 KAB00000000M wrote:
I'm just trying to find a way to play economical vs protoss. Because it seems like every PvP is about 4gate.
I 4 gated PvP until diamond. Protoss is really strong with rushes until you play against players who can hold them off. I would say get an immortal, then a few sentries, then expand and get colli/archons from there.
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Thanks. That 2 gate robo expand looks interesting!
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On January 30 2013 00:18 KAB00000000M wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 21:03 Kaitokid wrote:On January 29 2013 20:50 KAB00000000M wrote:
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with nexus first?
Is it possible to defend a 4-gate with any sort of econimical opening getting a nexus early in the game?
(I'm platinum level protoss)(Master Terran) no. yes if you defend the initial zealot/stalker pressure and the first warpin very cost efficient for example with a 3 stalker opening (has to be ridiculously cost efficient like losing 50% max of what he loses). you can expand afterwards and generally thats a pretty safe followup if you get a robo behind it aswell. What about 1Gate Robo expand? Or is that too slow to handle the pressure? (Sorry if this sounds too obvious to answer. I am bad at toss)
definitely doable especially if you scout in time. skip the observer and chrono an immortal, 3 pylon block your own ramp and then ff out a couple units.
if he is still able to do the 1st warpin on your highground you should pull probes in time to surround the units before the warpin is finished, this way most of the time the units are already almost dead by the time they can even attack.
if you managed to ff out his units and he has no highground vision either get sentries if you can ff him out further or pull probes when the ff is about to expire and do what I described above (probe surround on warpin). also you should focus fire down the stalkers with the immortal(s), thats the most important part.
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Request: could someone post replays of them defending either a standard 4 gate or a 4 gate with 2 zealots +1 stalker, with a double gas before core build? Specifically, I'm curious about:
1. What is the earliest you can use your FF and still be able to chain them?
2, I know you are supposed to have a "wall" with your 2 zealots and 2 sentries at the top of the ramp, but his probe can still mineral walk past it. Do I have to burn a FF just to stop a probe?
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Why don't you post a replay of what you're doing? 
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Because I played like shit? =P Anyway I'm looking for examples of what TO do, not what NOT to do.
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Thanks for the replies about the 2rax, I'll keep that stuff in mind! And yes, forgetting the robo was a complete mistake. As was guardian shield. I didn't think that it would make that big a difference though...
I saw CreatorPrime doing a 5gate counterpush against 2rax against FXOGumiho in the IPLFC and he kind of killed him (it's not a spoiler if I don't say the map or game number right?), so I guess that's a good idea. 2rax seems like a totally different game compared to 1rax FE...
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On January 30 2013 10:28 eugalp wrote:
Request: could someone post replays of them defending either a standard 4 gate or a 4 gate with 2 zealots +1 stalker, with a double gas before core build? Specifically, I'm curious about:
1. What is the earliest you can use your FF and still be able to chain them?
2, I know you are supposed to have a "wall" with your 2 zealots and 2 sentries at the top of the ramp, but his probe can still mineral walk past it. Do I have to burn a FF just to stop a probe?
About 2: 2 sentries and 2 zealots will kill a probe before it makes it up. Zealots will deal 14 damage, and the tickle cannons can deal the 6 remaining to kill it.
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A probe has 40 hp. Need 2 zealots hits + tickle. You can get lucky if the probe walks right between the zealots so both can hit but can't rely on that.
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On January 30 2013 15:27 eugalp wrote:
A probe has 40 hp. Need 2 zealots hits + tickle. You can get lucky if the probe walks right between the zealots so both can hit but can't rely on that.
just put your stuff at the bottom of the ramp. You can stutter and pretty much kill the probe with the two sentries.
EDIT: ah nvm there is units with the probe.
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On January 30 2013 15:27 eugalp wrote:
A probe has 40 hp. Need 2 zealots hits + tickle. You can get lucky if the probe walks right between the zealots so both can hit but can't rely on that.
even if the probe manages to build a pylon you can easily focus it down with your units before it finishes
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I must admitt I haven't actually scientifically researched the zealot + stalker + probe placing pylons situation, however my personal experience in getting 4-gated with 2 sentry 2 zealot 2 gate tech(a build I use in 95% of my games)I generally feel that killing his units and ignoring the probe is the way to go. If he walks up your ramp with all three of his units, you will kill both zealot and stalker and lose only a zealot if microed correctly. The pylons can either be ignored or killed by probes depending on the situation. Then you will end up with WG finished and warp in 2 units(assuming you went 2 gate + tech). He either warps in in your base, in which case you will be able to attack his units while warping or he warps in on low ground in which case its 5 units vs 5 units but you will have the upper hand due to FF and high ground. Its quite micro intensive but if you practise it abit its very strong and a very reliable way to beat 4-gates while getting very fast tech.
Also, if your whole start depends on you sniping his probe, you will fail when he brings two probes to place pylons, which isn't that uncommon anymore.
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On January 31 2013 00:12 Lazermonkey wrote:
I must admitt I haven't actually scientifically researched the zealot + stalker + probe placing pylons situation, however my personal experience in getting 4-gated with 2 sentry 2 zealot 2 gate tech(a build I use in 95% of my games)I generally feel that killing his units and ignoring the probe is the way to go. If he walks up your ramp with all three of his units, you will kill both zealot and stalker and lose only a zealot if microed correctly. The pylons can either be ignored or killed by probes depending on the situation. Then you will end up with WG finished and warp in 2 units(assuming you went 2 gate + tech). He either warps in in your base, in which case you will be able to attack his units while warping or he warps in on low ground in which case its 5 units vs 5 units but you will have the upper hand due to FF and high ground. Its quite micro intensive but if you practise it abit its very strong and a very reliable way to beat 4-gates while getting very fast tech.
Also, if your whole start depends on you sniping his probe, you will fail when he brings two probes to place pylons, which isn't that uncommon anymore.
Do you have a replay of holding off against a 10-11gate? I recall monk saying that double gas before core has a difficult time holding against it.
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On January 31 2013 00:12 Lazermonkey wrote:
I must admitt I haven't actually scientifically researched the zealot + stalker + probe placing pylons situation, however my personal experience in getting 4-gated with 2 sentry 2 zealot 2 gate tech(a build I use in 95% of my games)I generally feel that killing his units and ignoring the probe is the way to go. If he walks up your ramp with all three of his units, you will kill both zealot and stalker and lose only a zealot if microed correctly. The pylons can either be ignored or killed by probes depending on the situation. Then you will end up with WG finished and warp in 2 units(assuming you went 2 gate + tech). He either warps in in your base, in which case you will be able to attack his units while warping or he warps in on low ground in which case its 5 units vs 5 units but you will have the upper hand due to FF and high ground. Its quite micro intensive but if you practise it abit its very strong and a very reliable way to beat 4-gates while getting very fast tech.
Also, if your whole start depends on you sniping his probe, you will fail when he brings two probes to place pylons, which isn't that uncommon anymore.
Any replays? I'm very skeptical of the idea that you can hold a 4 gate if they manage to warp in units above your ramp. Especially since most of your unit count is sentries. The anti-4gate builds that I know place a high priority on sniping probes and denying high ground vision.
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EPT
