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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On October 11 2012 11:52 AznBoy00 wrote:
I have a few question about ladder/meta game etc.
According to the few posts above mentioning that phoenix opening is a really good one, I'm wondering if 2G robo expand is still viable? Because I haven't laddered during the whole summer...(Mid Diamond here)
I am struggling so much against Z due to mass roaches and late game BL Infestors...I have no clue on how to deal against z else than 2 base all in, which works barely nowadays...I've tried so many build orders and I'm about 10% win rate vs Z...(losing all the time T-T, sad :/)
I would need help, because I'm out of ideas on ladder T-T
Post a couple replays; a picture is worth a thousand words.
If you're actually opening 2G Robo before expanding in that match-up, you're probably falling incredibly behind from the beginning. Gateway expanding is fine, but you should just go 1Gate Nexus (either a YufFE or a 13 Gate 15 gas expand after 1-2 Stalkers) if that's what you want to do. Going 2gate Robo means you have to go and do significant damage to the zerg in order to be even (much less ahead), and most of the time that's only going to work if the zerg royally screws up.
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On October 11 2012 11:52 AznBoy00 wrote:
I have a few question about ladder/meta game etc.
According to the few posts above mentioning that phoenix opening is a really good one, I'm wondering if 2G robo expand is still viable? Because I haven't laddered during the whole summer...(Mid Diamond here)
I am struggling so much against Z due to mass roaches and late game BL Infestors...I have no clue on how to deal against z else than 2 base all in, which works barely nowadays...I've tried so many build orders and I'm about 10% win rate vs Z...(losing all the time T-T, sad :/)
I would need help, because I'm out of ideas on ladder T-T
Just about PvZ (it's a little out there, but you were asking for ideas):
Mass roaches and late-game BL/Infestors are two problems that are both solved by opting for a Skytoss style. There are any number of professional games at your disposal to show you the finer points of making a transition to Skytoss late-game after playing a standard opening (Crank does it, Hero does it, a lot of people do it nowadays), so I'm not going to go too in-depth into that. What I did want to mention is that it is possible to open stargate-first against Zerg, as is well discussed in this thread. The advantages of this are numerous: for starters, roaches can't shoot at void rays. For another, the first phoenix coming out of the stargate will give you vision of your opponents base usually before Lair is even done, but definitely before their Lair tech of choice is finished.
Recently I've been screwing around with the fast mothership fast third variant of Skytoss openers, and I can say my PvZ winrate is about 75-80% at the moment. This strategy revolves around taking a fast third about the time you get out a mothership, usually at about 11-12 minutes. Using the mothership's cloaking (snipe overseers with void rays) and a solid cannon defense, it's super easy to hold the third. From there you play reactively against your opponents anti-air tech of choice (high templars > infestors, void rays > corruptors, carriers > hydras) and you can easily keep macro pace with a Zerg that opted for a fast third opener. I would recommend perusing the thread linked above, because it covers just about every Skytoss opener from fast mothership fast third, to 5 phoenix harass, to +1 zealot w/ void ray harass, and everything in between. Plenty of great Skytoss openers that are still on the fringe of PvZ meta-game.
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I've been trying an 11 gate 2 zeal/stalker pressure on shorter rush distance maps like Ohana in PvT with pretty good success. Is there a build similar to this that exists?
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On October 11 2012 14:53 mizU wrote:
I've been trying an 11 gate 2 zeal/stalker pressure on shorter rush distance maps like Ohana in PvT with pretty good success. Is there a build similar to this that exists?
There isn't(at least as far as I'm aware) and it sounds slightly allin, but you could pretty much do the same thing with a standard 13 gate 1 gate FE if you changed how you use your chrono a bit. I do that myself if by rare chance I see a CC first or something equally greedy.
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How do you spot the early hellion plays from a terran? All i ever see is a 1 rax with 1 gas and after that I can't get any info until OBS is out, but hellions hit before then.
1 Rax 1 gas I have always seen as a safe thing to expand against because it isn't gas heavy or really aggro heavy. What are the signs?
AND
Any tips in PvZ? It is my worst matchup, i am terrible at it. Every push I make fails, every timing for them works. They usually go mass muta against me and they can just always be able to do enough damage and easily contain me.'
Tips?
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 11 2012 14:53 mizU wrote:
I've been trying an 11 gate 2 zeal/stalker pressure on shorter rush distance maps like Ohana in PvT with pretty good success. Is there a build similar to this that exists?
I'm pretty sure it would still hit after a bunker is done. I guess it can be strong if you know your opponent doesn't scout and skips the bunker.
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On October 11 2012 16:26 YesEvil wrote:
How do you spot the early hellion plays from a terran? All i ever see is a 1 rax with 1 gas and after that I can't get any info until OBS is out, but hellions hit before then.
1 Rax 1 gas I have always seen as a safe thing to expand against because it isn't gas heavy or really aggro heavy. What are the signs?
AND
Any tips in PvZ? It is my worst matchup, i am terrible at it. Every push I make fails, every timing for them works. They usually go mass muta against me and they can just always be able to do enough damage and easily contain me.'
Tips?
Gas before rax is a pretty sure sign(if you don't 9scout, click their geyser to see how much has been mined)
2 rax doesn't usually build it's second depot till after second rax so you can sort of use that as an indication too, if you see them fully wall(rax, 2 depot) early on you could feel fairly safe doing a 1 zealot 1 stalker poke to check up on what they're doing.
You could also partially wall off(pylon at ramp for your 24 supply pylon, second pylon beside it leaving 1 space gap) if you suspect hellions strongly.
For PvZ tips it might help to provide a replay or two to see exactly why you're struggling. =P
Vs mass muta though the standard advice usually applies(see spoiler): + Show Spoiler +Take third as soon as safely possible(the sooner the better), get blink, get templars and storm asap! usually you'll want to prioritize armor upgrades over attack, and don't get reactionary phoenix unless you already have a stargate or scout the spire halfway done or less than that. 3 base gives you enough resources to turtle to 200/200 and then push. Make sure you're constantly scouting with an obs or something to see when he attempts to transition to broods though, you need to push before those can finish.
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On October 11 2012 16:26 YesEvil wrote:
How do you spot the early hellion plays from a terran? All i ever see is a 1 rax with 1 gas and after that I can't get any info until OBS is out, but hellions hit before then.
1 Rax 1 gas I have always seen as a safe thing to expand against because it isn't gas heavy or really aggro heavy. What are the signs?
I like to 9 scout and Nexus first in PvT, generally. The 9 scout gets into the Terran's base before a potential wall-off, and I can scout gas or no gas. If I see gas, I steal the other gas and dance my probe around as long as possible. If my opponent doesn't attack the gas, he's probably 2Raxing or going Hellions. If he really tries to kill it, he's either going 1-1-1 or threatening to do so. Either way, it's good information for me. If he attack the gas with his marines, I can tell how many marines he's building before starting an add-on or just outright cutting marines, which narrows things down. Recently, 1Rax 1Gas into Hellions has become very popular, and then getting a starport for that medivac is usually the follow-up. I think you have to respect the increase in Hellion builds when you scout 1gas 1rax.
If I really want to get a read on his activities, I'll plant a pylon down right in the middle of his base before my probe dies. This way, I see if he goes for an add-on or drops more production in the middle of his base, and I scout around for proxied production buildings soon thereafter to make sure I know what's going on. This gets a little expensive, but also it buys me time because he either has to attack my buildings in his main, or I know he's moving out really early and I can use some damage control, accordingly.
I value information very highly, though, because I play PvT much like it's ZvT. I want to reactively build the right unit composition to counter my opponent's. Not everyone has that style. So the signs I usually see are pretty clear because of my 9 scouting, gas steal, and follow-up scouts. If you're not getting enough information in your games, start watching your replays and learn the timings that your opponent does when he goes Hellions or goes some other 1rax 1gas opening. When does he make an add-on, if he does? Where do people like to place their Factory? Their Starport? I would try to look at those key moments in your replays against Hellions, and see what you could look for in the future. If your current scouting path doesn't let you check these things or the Terran is blocking off before you get into his base, then you need to either find another way to get that information, or you need to be able to play more blind and have a build that's safe against 2Rax and other 1Rax 1Gas openers, but simultaneously be safe against Hellion openings.
AND
Any tips in PvZ? It is my worst matchup, i am terrible at it. Every push I make fails, every timing for them works. They usually go mass muta against me and they can just always be able to do enough damage and easily contain me.'
Tips?
Post some replays. Most of fighting Mutas has to do with timings, information, and positioning. Blink or Phoenix are both fine to deal with Muta aggression, depending on what your tech path is. You should always have either a Stargate+a squad of 4+ Phoenixes, or you should be going Twilight tech at a reasonable speed. Personally, I prefer going Phoenixes because that's my favorite unit in the game, but Blink is fine as well. Although, I would like to point out that some maps (namely, Daybreak) aren't the best for using blink to go from one base to another due to the way bases are spaced out.
EDIT: Chylith totally owned me here.
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I see a lot of people who want to scout go for a 9 scout, just want to mention that on 2 player maps, you can actually go for an 11 scout and with your 12th probe queued and still get in in time, tho if he is trying to stop you, he will stop you whether its a 9 /11/13 scout.
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On October 11 2012 19:37 Arachne wrote:
I see a lot of people who want to scout go for a 9 scout, just want to mention that on 2 player maps, you can actually go for an 11 scout and with your 12th probe queued and still get in in time, tho if he is trying to stop you, he will stop you whether its a 9 /11/13 scout.
Blocking a 9 scout (on a 2-player map) means pulling a second SCV early and delaying a potential gas/forcing SCV cut(s). That's a big tell, in and of itself. Most Terrans that block early will do so in time for a 12-13 Gate scout because it's more economical. So, sure. If the Terran really wants to block a 9 scout, he can do it--but he's shooting himself in the foot pretty hard. 100 Minerals and lost mining time from a worker is a big deal to Terran at 12-13 supply.
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Italy12246 Posts
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later.
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On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later.
Unless it's Nexus first, in which case you see 9 scouts a fair amount of the time at high level.
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On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later.
I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2012 17:27 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 16:26 YesEvil wrote:
How do you spot the early hellion plays from a terran? All i ever see is a 1 rax with 1 gas and after that I can't get any info until OBS is out, but hellions hit before then.
1 Rax 1 gas I have always seen as a safe thing to expand against because it isn't gas heavy or really aggro heavy. What are the signs?
AND
Any tips in PvZ? It is my worst matchup, i am terrible at it. Every push I make fails, every timing for them works. They usually go mass muta against me and they can just always be able to do enough damage and easily contain me.'
Tips? Gas before rax is a pretty sure sign(if you don't 9scout, click their geyser to see how much has been mined) 2 rax doesn't usually build it's second depot till after second rax so you can sort of use that as an indication too, if you see them fully wall(rax, 2 depot) early on you could feel fairly safe doing a 1 zealot 1 stalker poke to check up on what they're doing. You could also partially wall off(pylon at ramp for your 24 supply pylon, second pylon beside it leaving 1 space gap) if you suspect hellions strongly. For PvZ tips it might help to provide a replay or two to see exactly why you're struggling. =P Vs mass muta though the standard advice usually applies(see spoiler): + Show Spoiler +Take third as soon as safely possible(the sooner the better), get blink, get templars and storm asap! usually you'll want to prioritize armor upgrades over attack, and don't get reactionary phoenix unless you already have a stargate or scout the spire halfway done or less than that. 3 base gives you enough resources to turtle to 200/200 and then push. Make sure you're constantly scouting with an obs or something to see when he attempts to transition to broods though, you need to push before those can finish.
It would probably be a bit easier if you just watched the latest videos on my stream. www.twitch.tv/rgyesevil
I spent some time off from starcraft, and am now set on getting back into it and trying to finally break into Masters.I have a feeling it may be because I don't really have a set build, and am a bit slow on the macro. But you can see for yourself I guess.
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On October 11 2012 13:12 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 11:52 AznBoy00 wrote:
I have a few question about ladder/meta game etc.
According to the few posts above mentioning that phoenix opening is a really good one, I'm wondering if 2G robo expand is still viable? Because I haven't laddered during the whole summer...(Mid Diamond here)
I am struggling so much against Z due to mass roaches and late game BL Infestors...I have no clue on how to deal against z else than 2 base all in, which works barely nowadays...I've tried so many build orders and I'm about 10% win rate vs Z...(losing all the time T-T, sad :/)
I would need help, because I'm out of ideas on ladder T-T Post a couple replays; a picture is worth a thousand words. If you're actually opening 2G Robo before expanding in that match-up, you're probably falling incredibly behind from the beginning. Gateway expanding is fine, but you should just go 1Gate Nexus (either a YufFE or a 13 Gate 15 gas expand after 1-2 Stalkers) if that's what you want to do. Going 2gate Robo means you have to go and do significant damage to the zerg in order to be even (much less ahead), and most of the time that's only going to work if the zerg royally screws up.
2g robo in pvp, i guess i forgot to mention it :/
I always 1g expo vs t...
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On October 11 2012 21:32 YesEvil wrote:It would probably be a bit easier if you just watched the latest videos on my stream. www.twitch.tv/rgyesevilI spent some time off from starcraft, and am now set on getting back into it and trying to finally break into Masters.I have a feeling it may be because I don't really have a set build, and am a bit slow on the macro. But you can see for yourself I guess.
OK, I will analyze a couple of them. I don't sugarcoat analysis, so be forewarned.
Game 1: PvZ on Antiga
This map has stupidly close air spawns, so drops in any matchup are really hard to spot because you have almost no time to do so; this is why tournaments usually force cross-spawns for this map. Nevertheless, you basically didn't scout more than with the initial probe scout, and you should have been checking his third out. If you see 2-base play, what could it be? It basically has to be Lair tech or a bust, and after a bust doesn't show up at the typical timings, you rule that out and know it's Lair tech. Lair tech means drops, Nydus, Mutas, and Hydras. You would have been fine against all 4 of those problems if you had a better build order. Instead, you made a bunch of Zealots, you didn't get charge (even though you had plenty of money and a Twilight Council), and you had nothing that shoots air uints. You also had nothing out there to scout him at all. YOU NEED TO SCOUT!!!! If you're not pressuring your opponent and warping units right into his face, you need to get intel other ways; usually from flying units...this means Obs, Warp Prism, Phoenix, Void Ray, or Hallucinated any of the above. And you need to do it about 4 or 5 minutes before that doom drop happened at your natural.
So basically, you played blind all game, your unit composition didn't make any sense, and even though it was an obvious 2base Lair tech build, you left yourself completely exposed to Mutas. This is a fantastic map for Blink Stalkers because almost everything is bordered by cliffs and you can blink in and out of bases very quickly, so if you had gotten blink about 5 minutes earlier and gotten Stalkers instead of Zealots, you would have dominated this guy. Alternatively, you could have gone Stargate early and used that to scout, which would have shown you everything he was doing and then allowed you to transition into mass ranged Phoenixes when you would have seen the spire. Either way, your midgame tech needs to involve some sort of serious scouting, as well as a plan for Mutas.
Game 2: PvR on Shakuras
You 4gate this random guy, and I approve. Next.
Game 3: PvZ on Shakuras
You scout this zerg, check only 1 of his gases, do not check his pool timing, and then send your probe home. What is he doing? Is he going triple hatch before pool? Is he playing standard? Is he taking gas or multiple gas? This isn't a game of solitaire. You need to be looking for clues about your opponent's next few moves. Instead, you tech 3 different paths at tier 2, you don't scout your opponent at all, and you overmake cannons and defensive units. You can't do this against Zerg. If he just drones up, you lose the game. Period. You have to pressure Zerg or feign pressure, so he doesn't just exponentially ramp his economy up. As a matter of fact, if you play this defensively against any race and they play greedy, you're basically dead.
Your wall-off is not solid in this game, so you need to work on that. Practice wall-offs in a custom game--that's what helped me tremendously. You also decided to make a ton of zealots this game, too, and go for Colossi. You float a lot of money and build a lot of tech structures that don't necessarily help your cause. You don't go for any kind of timing attack, nor do you try to take a third before the 15 minute mark. It looks like you have no plan this game, as all of your decisions (or lack thereof) point to you not knowing what to do. That happens to every player at some point, but if you want to get better then you need to break that psychological barrier and get your head into the game. You don't have to go for all-ins, but you should at least have some goals in mind for each stage of the game. I want X or Y unit composition at tier 2, and my favorite tier 3 tech is this one, etc.
I thought your army control with Stalker/Sentry/Colossus was good. You had some very calm and effective forcefields. Still, this move-out happend at a time when a Mid- (or even Low-) Masters Zerg would have a maxed army with 20 high-energy Infestors and a bunch of Broods+Corruptors, not this Roach/Hydra crap. You should have been dead. If you want to break into the next level, you will have to be ready to beat players at the next level.
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A couple of other things I noticed from your play in these games and in others (which I don't have time to analyze):
-You seem to need some work on watching the minimap.
-Whenever you micro, you tend to overmicro and you also tend to let your macro slip up because you're really focused on the task at hand. You don't need to stutter-step one stalker against 8 overlords if it means you're missing a warp-in by 10 seconds and you have an army that's just sitting around being useless.
-Your scouting is seriously insufficient; you basically never know what's coming your way until it hits you in the face.
-Your build orders lack direction. It's fine to have some bumps and to improvize and experiment, but you just don't look like you have a plan when you play PvZ. Try teching a little less and just focus on building a strong army that's good against your opponent's units. I think you should focus on specific army compositions, rather than just making a collage of various protoss units. Variety is good, but you should be gradually building different units--not building all kinds of different stuff simultaneously on 2 bases.
There are strong aspects to your play, though, too. You have poise when you use your units. You calmly place forcefields, which is rare for someone at your level of playskill. You know how to micro units and you seem to understand how and when to time tech/upgrades (like building that Twilight in time for +1 to finish). You just have some tunnel vision, which is natural. Multitasking and minimap awareness don't come overnight. There was something else I liked about your play, too, but I'm a bit tired and it just slipped my mind.
On October 11 2012 21:54 AznBoy00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 13:12 ineversmile wrote:On October 11 2012 11:52 AznBoy00 wrote:
I have a few question about ladder/meta game etc.
According to the few posts above mentioning that phoenix opening is a really good one, I'm wondering if 2G robo expand is still viable? Because I haven't laddered during the whole summer...(Mid Diamond here)
I am struggling so much against Z due to mass roaches and late game BL Infestors...I have no clue on how to deal against z else than 2 base all in, which works barely nowadays...I've tried so many build orders and I'm about 10% win rate vs Z...(losing all the time T-T, sad :/)
I would need help, because I'm out of ideas on ladder T-T Post a couple replays; a picture is worth a thousand words. If you're actually opening 2G Robo before expanding in that match-up, you're probably falling incredibly behind from the beginning. Gateway expanding is fine, but you should just go 1Gate Nexus (either a YufFE or a 13 Gate 15 gas expand after 1-2 Stalkers) if that's what you want to do. Going 2gate Robo means you have to go and do significant damage to the zerg in order to be even (much less ahead), and most of the time that's only going to work if the zerg royally screws up. 2g robo in pvp, i guess i forgot to mention it :/ I always 1g expo vs t...
Well, if you don't type it up, nobody else is going to know what you're talking about. You blend all your match-ups together with that post. If you want some help, you need to organize your thoughts and you probably should post some replays. Use drop.sc, copy-paste the links into your post, easy-peasy.
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http://drop.sc/263631
A new build order i tried against Slivko against hatch first , just wanted to share with my protoss brothers.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing.
During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game.
You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place?
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On October 11 2012 17:12 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 14:53 mizU wrote:
I've been trying an 11 gate 2 zeal/stalker pressure on shorter rush distance maps like Ohana in PvT with pretty good success. Is there a build similar to this that exists? I'm pretty sure it would still hit after a bunker is done. I guess it can be strong if you know your opponent doesn't scout and skips the bunker.
I push out with the first zealot and a probe and usually they have a bunker starting with 2 marines, my second zealot comes in, and then the stalker. I didn't mean I wait for all 3 units:3
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Italy12246 Posts
Do you go zeal/core/zeal? Sounds pretty interesting.
edit: actually pm me the answer, this isnt relevant to the thread.
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EPT
