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On October 12 2012 09:05 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:00 rd wrote:On October 12 2012 08:01 Gumbi wrote:
You're gambling so much more than I am. The worst that happens to me is I lose a Probe. You are sacrificing eco EVERY game, for information that's likely equal to mine. The potential gain is statistically less likely, and practically (as in, I can react to danger as efficiently as you) not worth it. This is further compounded by your assumptions of greed in the case of the likelihood of scouting on a 4 player map.
Ultimately, you're gambling more than I am with a 9 scout. Not sure who you're replying to but I'm not arguing to 9 scout. I'm just clarifying that 13 scout isn't as solid, thus you're still gambling vs some gas openings -- especially when you open roboless. (it appears?) You're trying to argue that 13 scout can reliably deduce gas openings, which you can't? Stating that 13 scouting gambles less than a 9 scout is a much more reasonable assertion. I am arguing that a 9 scout gambles more over the long term (over some x amount of games) than a 13 scout, and that it is within the abilities if a 13 scout to reliably deduce enough information to sufficiently react to anything Terran can throw at you (assuming 1 Gate expand) - excluding things like blind proxy raxes close pos entombed and you scout last - something that won't happen in a tournie.
MVP is in the finals of GSL Code S again. Remember the last time he won the finals? He cheesed multiple games in every series in the entire top 8. He did that again in the top 4 this season, less than 24 hours ago. You're trying to tell me that people don't cheese in tournaments? Are you out of your mind? The guy with the most GSL championships cheesed in TvP in GAME 7 OF THE CODE S FINALS last season and won with it.
Seriously, cheese is a very, very real part of this game and PvT is far from an exception to that rule.
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On October 12 2012 09:36 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:05 Gumbi wrote:On October 12 2012 09:00 rd wrote:On October 12 2012 08:01 Gumbi wrote:
You're gambling so much more than I am. The worst that happens to me is I lose a Probe. You are sacrificing eco EVERY game, for information that's likely equal to mine. The potential gain is statistically less likely, and practically (as in, I can react to danger as efficiently as you) not worth it. This is further compounded by your assumptions of greed in the case of the likelihood of scouting on a 4 player map.
Ultimately, you're gambling more than I am with a 9 scout. Not sure who you're replying to but I'm not arguing to 9 scout. I'm just clarifying that 13 scout isn't as solid, thus you're still gambling vs some gas openings -- especially when you open roboless. (it appears?) You're trying to argue that 13 scout can reliably deduce gas openings, which you can't? Stating that 13 scouting gambles less than a 9 scout is a much more reasonable assertion. I am arguing that a 9 scout gambles more over the long term (over some x amount of games) than a 13 scout, and that it is within the abilities if a 13 scout to reliably deduce enough information to sufficiently react to anything Terran can throw at you (assuming 1 Gate expand) - excluding things like blind proxy raxes close pos entombed and you scout last - something that won't happen in a tournie. MVP is in the finals of GSL Code S again. Remember the last time he won the finals? He cheesed multiple games in every series in the entire top 8. He did that again in the top 4 this season, less than 24 hours ago. You're trying to tell me that people don't cheese in tournaments? Are you out of your mind? The guy with the most GSL championships cheesed in TvP in GAME 7 OF THE CODE S FINALS last season and won with it. Seriously, cheese is a very, very real part of this game and PvT is far from an exception to that rule.
Sigh. Maybe I was being unclear. That's not why I'm talking about. I'm talking about a ridiculous ladder-based situation where a T blind proxies an Entombed, scouts me first close pos, I scout him last.
Apart from the cheesy part, the things that make this ridiculous is that ladder Entombed has 3 spawns, and close spawns is unbelievably close it's a HUGE bonus for Terran.
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On October 12 2012 09:41 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:36 ineversmile wrote:On October 12 2012 09:05 Gumbi wrote:On October 12 2012 09:00 rd wrote:On October 12 2012 08:01 Gumbi wrote:
You're gambling so much more than I am. The worst that happens to me is I lose a Probe. You are sacrificing eco EVERY game, for information that's likely equal to mine. The potential gain is statistically less likely, and practically (as in, I can react to danger as efficiently as you) not worth it. This is further compounded by your assumptions of greed in the case of the likelihood of scouting on a 4 player map.
Ultimately, you're gambling more than I am with a 9 scout. Not sure who you're replying to but I'm not arguing to 9 scout. I'm just clarifying that 13 scout isn't as solid, thus you're still gambling vs some gas openings -- especially when you open roboless. (it appears?) You're trying to argue that 13 scout can reliably deduce gas openings, which you can't? Stating that 13 scouting gambles less than a 9 scout is a much more reasonable assertion. I am arguing that a 9 scout gambles more over the long term (over some x amount of games) than a 13 scout, and that it is within the abilities if a 13 scout to reliably deduce enough information to sufficiently react to anything Terran can throw at you (assuming 1 Gate expand) - excluding things like blind proxy raxes close pos entombed and you scout last - something that won't happen in a tournie. MVP is in the finals of GSL Code S again. Remember the last time he won the finals? He cheesed multiple games in every series in the entire top 8. He did that again in the top 4 this season, less than 24 hours ago. You're trying to tell me that people don't cheese in tournaments? Are you out of your mind? The guy with the most GSL championships cheesed in TvP in GAME 7 OF THE CODE S FINALS last season and won with it. Seriously, cheese is a very, very real part of this game and PvT is far from an exception to that rule. Sigh. Maybe I was being unclear. That's not why I'm talking about. I'm talking about a ridiculous ladder-based situation where a T blind proxies an Entombed, scouts me first close pos, I scout him last.
You're being extremely unclear in each of your posts, and you're also changing your position repeatedly. First, you say:
something that won't happen in a tournie.
Then, you say:
That's not why I'm talking about. I'm talking about a ridiculous ladder-based situation where a T blind proxies an Entombed, scouts me first close pos, I scout him last.
Make up your mind.
Apart from the cheesy part, the things that make this ridiculous is that ladder Entombed has 3 spawns, and close spawns is unbelievably close it's a HUGE bonus for Terran.
Or it's huge bonus for Protoss aggression, or for Zerg early pools. It doesn't matter what the match-up is, there are cheeses and other types of aggression and any race can be favored or unfavored in close-spawn positions.
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On October 12 2012 10:29 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:41 Gumbi wrote:On October 12 2012 09:36 ineversmile wrote:On October 12 2012 09:05 Gumbi wrote:On October 12 2012 09:00 rd wrote:On October 12 2012 08:01 Gumbi wrote:
You're gambling so much more than I am. The worst that happens to me is I lose a Probe. You are sacrificing eco EVERY game, for information that's likely equal to mine. The potential gain is statistically less likely, and practically (as in, I can react to danger as efficiently as you) not worth it. This is further compounded by your assumptions of greed in the case of the likelihood of scouting on a 4 player map.
Ultimately, you're gambling more than I am with a 9 scout. Not sure who you're replying to but I'm not arguing to 9 scout. I'm just clarifying that 13 scout isn't as solid, thus you're still gambling vs some gas openings -- especially when you open roboless. (it appears?) You're trying to argue that 13 scout can reliably deduce gas openings, which you can't? Stating that 13 scouting gambles less than a 9 scout is a much more reasonable assertion. I am arguing that a 9 scout gambles more over the long term (over some x amount of games) than a 13 scout, and that it is within the abilities if a 13 scout to reliably deduce enough information to sufficiently react to anything Terran can throw at you (assuming 1 Gate expand) - excluding things like blind proxy raxes close pos entombed and you scout last - something that won't happen in a tournie. MVP is in the finals of GSL Code S again. Remember the last time he won the finals? He cheesed multiple games in every series in the entire top 8. He did that again in the top 4 this season, less than 24 hours ago. You're trying to tell me that people don't cheese in tournaments? Are you out of your mind? The guy with the most GSL championships cheesed in TvP in GAME 7 OF THE CODE S FINALS last season and won with it. Seriously, cheese is a very, very real part of this game and PvT is far from an exception to that rule. Sigh. Maybe I was being unclear. That's not why I'm talking about. I'm talking about a ridiculous ladder-based situation where a T blind proxies an Entombed, scouts me first close pos, I scout him last. You're being extremely unclear in each of your posts, and you're also changing your position repeatedly. First, you say: Then, you say: Show nested quote +That's not why I'm talking about. I'm talking about a ridiculous ladder-based situation where a T blind proxies an Entombed, scouts me first close pos, I scout him last. Make up your mind. Show nested quote +Apart from the cheesy part, the things that make this ridiculous is that ladder Entombed has 3 spawns, and close spawns is unbelievably close it's a HUGE bonus for Terran.
Or it's huge bonus for Protoss aggression, or for Zerg early pools. It doesn't matter what the match-up is, there are cheeses and other types of aggression and any race can be favored or unfavored in close-spawn positions.
Its actually quite clear. However hes talking about tourney 13 scouting while you are talking about 9 scouting on ladder. This is because on ladder you have to 9 scout because of all the different spawn locations. However in tourney like GSL you pretty much always know what location your opponent spawns thus you can delay a little bit with a safe 13 scout.
At least i think....
EDIT: I think we all remember metalopolis close spawns was pretty bs.
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On October 12 2012 14:24 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Its actually quite clear. However hes talking about tourney 13 scouting while you are talking about 9 scouting on ladder.
When did I ever say anything about scouting differently based on the game being on ladder or in a tournament? If anything, you should scout more in tournaments than on ladder. You know what beats mind games and misinformation? Scouting and intel.
This is because on ladder you have to 9 scout because of all the different spawn locations.
That's actually not true, at all. You don't even need to 13 scout. When you 9 scout, you're paying a certain amount of minerals and shifting your timings in order to attain information. In the case of a gateway opener, you don't need that kind of information from that early of a scout because it's more valuable to have a 13 gate and other crisp timings. However, if you open Nexus first (which is what I do and what we've been discussing), then you're going to have significantly later timings and you often need better intel to make up for that issue. However, because you're going Nexus first, you are going to be rich in a few minutes, so paying a probe and some mining time is often worth the 9 scout for Nexus first.
However in tourney like GSL you pretty much always know what location your opponent spawns thus you can delay a little bit with a safe 13 scout.
Like I said earlier, 13 scouting happens because you built a Gateway at 13. That never happens when you open Nexus first, unless you specifically send out a scout at 13 just to make your opponent think you went 13 gate (which is metagaming and mind tricks; more scouting denial than actual scouting).
This is the Ladder Pool:
Antiga Shipyard
Cloud Kingdom
Condemned Ridge
Daybreak
Entombed Valley
Ohana
Shakuras Plateau
Tal'Darim Altar
This is the GSL Map Pool:
Whirlwind
Ohana
Cloud Kingdom
Entombed Valley
Antiga Shipyard
Daybreak
Abyssal City
The ladder pool has one more map, but 3 hard vetoes. The ladder pool has three 2-player maps, a 3-player map, and four 4-player maps. The GSL pool has four 2-player maps, a forced cross-spawn map that counts as another 2-player map, and two 4-player maps. The ladder pool is also horrendously outdated, as many people consider Condemned Ridge overall poorly designed, and Tal'Darim Altar lacks fundamental balancing tools such as a 1-FF-sized ramp from the main to the natural. So those two maps are probably the two most vetoed maps by Protosses on the ladder, followed by either the 4-player Antiga or Shakuras. When you think about it that way and consider the vetoes involved with ladder play, both the ladder pool and GSL pool actually have two 4-player maps, and the ladder pool's 3-player map (shakuras) functions much like a 2-player map in terms of scouting, due to the short distances from your opponent's potential spawn locations. Ultimately, the GSL is actually a slightly bigger map pool when you consider 2 vetoes bringing the ladder total to 6, and that's why it has at least one more 2-player map in function--but they're still relatively close.
So whether you're on ladder or in a tournament, you will mostly play 2-player maps and a minority of 4-player maps. You have to deal with both in either environment, and at a relatively similar ratio. The tournament maps are more refined and have some more anti-cheesing measures (usually), but in tournaments the cheese you will face is also going to be waaaaaay more practiced and refined, which makes scouting so damn important when things are on the line in a major event. Bottomline: you have to deal with 4-player maps, no matter what.
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PvZ: I scout zerg going gas first, then pool (15 gas, 14 pool). I see that his first 100 gas went to ling speed, and he keeps drones in gas. He expands after the first lings pop out (around 20 food or 4:00). What should I be worried about? I do a standard FFE. How should I continue with my build and scouting after seeing his opening?
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Italy12247 Posts
If he keeps mining gas you have to worry about potential busts and 2 base tech play. Move and poke around with your probe to check for a (very unlikely) third. Get a second cannon. Get a sentry as a second unit if you want to be 100% safe, or a stalker. vs such a fast speed it's hard to get in to see what he's doing, so do your best to at least hold your xel'naga tower and see if there are any attacks coming. After your first sentry is started get a stargate both for roach defense and scouting.
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I currently need help on PvZ. I went 15 nexus into 5 gate robo + expo into colossi and etc.
It's Masters level play and I just got completely rolled. I thought I was macroing well, but the Zerg just maxed out at like 12-13 minutes, and raped me. I believed its because he got an early 3rd and I didn't punish it. Any advice on how I could improve/do differently?
http://drop.sc/264041
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On October 13 2012 07:29 MuffinFTW wrote:I currently need help on PvZ. I went 15 nexus into 5 gate robo + expo into colossi and etc. It's Masters level play and I just got completely rolled. I thought I was macroing well, but the Zerg just maxed out at like 12-13 minutes, and raped me. I believed its because he got an early 3rd and I didn't punish it. Any advice on how I could improve/do differently? http://drop.sc/264041
I'm not the biggest Protoss player, but I have some tips from watching the replay:
-You don't constantly produce out of your gateway while WG is researching
-Very late +1; you had money for it, but didn't get it
-Late gasses 3 and 4. Standard macro is third gas at 6:30, fourth around 7:00-7:30
-Late twilight. Standard timing is shortly after your robo finishes. Faster twilight enables you to get +2 weapons instead of +1 armor
These are only things that will imrove your game, and aren't why you lost. More on this:
-No simcity at your third...you really need to wall off most (but not all) of your third to have any chance of surviving against roach/ling max
-Colossus tech? O.o Terrible idea. Colossi aren't good against roaches in low numbers and with bad upgrades
-Your observers should be active, scout that he's only on 4 gas. This screams roach/ling max, and you should skip colossus tech to help defend his all in (it really is all in). Less stalkers, more sentries, faster gas, better macro, smarter scouting and tech
Haha, sour about that one missed forcefield making you lose. If you had some simcity (I wish I had some pro game examples...I think Alicia vs Stephano or maybe vs DRG he played on Ohana and walled off his third but left a few gateways "missing" so that he isn't walled in and it's only one forcefield to block out the army.
If you hit your forcefields, you probably would've died later. With no simcity, Zerg can keep engaging and you'll burn forcefields faster than you replenish them. Eventually you'll run out and get surrounded and die. Simcity is what you were missing, and it's what you need. A few macro improvements would help, but simcity!
Scouting also would've helped. He could've done a 2 base bust, tech, or anything. You didn't scout his third until your observer, after 8:00 (which is when most cheeses have already killed you).
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On October 13 2012 06:45 Teoita wrote:
If he keeps mining gas you have to worry about potential busts and 2 base tech play. Move and poke around with your probe to check for a (very unlikely) third. Get a second cannon. Get a sentry as a second unit if you want to be 100% safe, or a stalker. vs such a fast speed it's hard to get in to see what he's doing, so do your best to at least hold your xel'naga tower and see if there are any attacks coming. After your first sentry is started get a stargate both for roach defense and scouting.
Should I skip/cancel +1 weapon upgrade in favor of the faster stargate? After FFE I usually go fast robo and then 3 additional gates, so should I still get the robo after stargate against midgame roach pushes or should I just get the 3 gateways first? Against 3 hatch before gas it's doable, but maybe too tech greedy against the likely 2 base play?
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Italy12247 Posts
Yeah the +1 isn't necessary nor useful if he's allining you, and you need the gas for sentries and stargate stuff.
You also don't need such a fast robo because you already have void rays for defense and phoenixes for scouting anyway, so going for stargate->4gate->robo is fine if you don't want to just counter with a stargate/7gate allin (which should have a good chance of winning if you don't take damage from his rush).
In general, the point of a fast robo before the extra gates is, mostly, to maximize your immortal count when you take a third in case he tried to bust it with a roach max. If he's 2basing that's completely out of the question so you can delay it.
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You should only keep the +1 if you have a bunch of zealots, if the bust is mostly lings (like a baneling bust), and if the +1 will definitely finish in time to deal with the bust (or if you can buy enough time for that to happen). Considering how narrow those applications are, there isn't a rational reason to keep the +1 against 2base tech from zerg. I'm with Teoita on this one 100%; I just figured I'd elaborate a bit on why the +1 is too narrow an upgrade for the job. Most of that upgrade's usage is in zealots killing lings with one less attack. That's nowhere near as valuable as a faster Void Ray to put a clock on a bust against units that don't shoot up.
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Any advice for combatting stupid terrans who go and do their own thing, their timings are weird and they build an expansion for their natural but don't attempt to take it.
It catches me out every time when they go 1 rax FE, but then proceed to not take the FE.....
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On October 14 2012 09:00 YesEvil wrote:
Any advice for combatting stupid terrans who go and do their own thing, their timings are weird and they build an expansion for their natural but don't attempt to take it.
It catches me out every time when they go 1 rax FE, but then proceed to not take the FE.....
Just play solidly and you should generally win pretty easily, at least in the example you stated.
The only time I can see causing you any grief is if you were trying to allin them upon scouting 1 rax FE.
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On October 14 2012 09:51 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 09:00 YesEvil wrote:
Any advice for combatting stupid terrans who go and do their own thing, their timings are weird and they build an expansion for their natural but don't attempt to take it.
It catches me out every time when they go 1 rax FE, but then proceed to not take the FE..... Just play solidly and you should generally win pretty easily, at least in the example you stated. The only time I can see causing you any grief is if you were trying to allin them upon scouting 1 rax FE.
I agree with this. Also, if you built extra sentries and units in case of some kind of all-in, you might have an opportunity to walk across the map and contain the terran at his ramp. You could also poke his ramp while he's bunkering up the natural, and send a warp prism into his main base to get some damage done. There are a couple of timings when the terran is weak, although it's dangerous because stim and medivacs show up just a little bit after those timings.
I think that metagaming can't always simply account for the most popular and the best strategies. You should always be prepared for less popular strategies and bad ones, too.
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What's the proper response to mass muta/ling/baneling when you're on 3base? Other than archons, what kind of unit composition works well against it?
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Fellow Protoss,
Ive been trying to deviate away from the gimmicky and boring 2base all-ins for PvZ, and try to go into the late game. My focus over yhe past few days has been warp prism harass, but it just feels weak compared to when professional players do it. So, I have a few questions:
1. What should be a standard warp-in? I normally warp 4 zealots. Should I add more units or mix it up a little?
2. What should I target first? Drones or the hatch?
3. Is it more important to save the prism (at the loss of 4 zealots), or should I make an effort to save the units warped in?
4. Is prism speed necessary?
5. Should I take out any static defense before attacking economy, or should I tank the damage?
Thanks guys.
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On October 14 2012 11:22 dachi wrote:
What's the proper response to mass muta/ling/baneling when you're on 3base? Other than archons, what kind of unit composition works well against it?
storm/blink stalker/archons/zealots(chargelots)/sentries
once you have storm and cannons to defend, that's a good time to move out
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On October 14 2012 13:27 iremnant3847 wrote:
Fellow Protoss,
Ive been trying to deviate away from the gimmicky and boring 2base all-ins for PvZ, and try to go into the late game. My focus over yhe past few days has been warp prism harass, but it just feels weak compared to when professional players do it. So, I have a few questions:
1. What should be a standard warp-in? I normally warp 4 zealots. Should I add more units or mix it up a little?
2. What should I target first? Drones or the hatch?
3. Is it more important to save the prism (at the loss of 4 zealots), or should I make an effort to save the units warped in?
4. Is prism speed necessary?
5. Should I take out any static defense before attacking economy, or should I tank the damage?
Thanks guys.
1. Warp prism harass has many uses in itself...you have to figure out what exactly you want the harass to do...if you need him to just stay on his side of the map, then the 4 zealots would be good as you try to expand and set it up...also the warp prism harass allows you to see their tech and where it's located...the other use is to snipe important structures...if that's the case you can use immortal drops or warp dts if you see no detection around to clean house...if it's super late game and zerg is banking larva, storm drops are really effective as you reset their larva count to the minimal
2. Target is judgment call honestly. The way I do it is if I see important structures that I know I can kill off, I try to aim for those...if you don't know you can kill the structure you can play it safe and go for drones if you wish but it will be hard to target drones while macroing.
3. Once again it's judgment call. If the zealots are under the warp prism, of course save them and leave but you REALLY want to try to keep the prism alive.
4. Yes it's necessary in late game PvZ. With speed, it's able to escape from corruptors which is about the typical time they start to get corruptors if they are going broodlords.
5. Once again it's judgment call. If you know you will be going back there to do more damage try to take the defense out specifically the spore or any detection so all you have to do is warp dts to rape everything.
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On October 14 2012 13:27 iremnant3847 wrote:
Fellow Protoss,
Ive been trying to deviate away from the gimmicky and boring 2base all-ins for PvZ, and try to go into the late game. My focus over yhe past few days has been warp prism harass, but it just feels weak compared to when professional players do it. So, I have a few questions:
1. What should be a standard warp-in? I normally warp 4 zealots. Should I add more units or mix it up a little?
2. What should I target first? Drones or the hatch?
3. Is it more important to save the prism (at the loss of 4 zealots), or should I make an effort to save the units warped in?
4. Is prism speed necessary?
5. Should I take out any static defense before attacking economy, or should I tank the damage?
Thanks guys.
Or you could Hongun; 3 base all-ins are 50% more fun than 2 base all-ins! :D
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EPT
