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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On October 11 2012 23:43 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing. During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game. You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place?
What he walls his entrance and you have no intel of what he is doing? then a 13 scout is useless since your probe will sit outside of his base and wont scout anything.
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Italy12246 Posts
Poking the front while there's only one marine out still gives you a ton of info in my experience, especially vs bad (ie, not pro) players that are worse at denying scouting than your own opponents. It might not be true for progamers, but it is for pretty much everyone else that reads/posts in this thread/forum.
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13 scout is fine. You can read quite a bit from a walled Terran depending on the number of Marines, whether there's a Rax on the top, or a Depot Wall. Whether there's a Bunker, whether there's an add-on, etc etc.
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On October 11 2012 23:43 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing. During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game. You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place?
Well, if he walls out your scout and gasses into any kind of factory tech, he can still bunker at the natural and deflect any stalker/zealot pressure. Then those same reads turn into a gamble when you open roboless in PvT. Of course, the Terran too is gambling that you aren't going to do any sort of all-in. Thank god I rarely encounter Terrans that go that so far to meta-game me.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 12 2012 00:40 Empire.Mista wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 23:43 Teoita wrote:On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing. During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game. You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place? What he walls his entrance and you have no intel of what he is doing? then a 13 scout is useless since your probe will sit outside of his base and wont scout anything.
I believe that 9 scouting is the way to go with nexus first in order to be positive of what you're facing; this is primarily because the divergence point of your build comes sooner (i.e. build 1 gateway or 2, get gas early, etc, whereas a 1-gate expand would make decisions based on sentries, early robo, extra gateways, etc).
13 scout is perfectly fine in all other builds because it gets to your opponent's base generally before he can normally wall off and you can scout gas + orbital timing. If you get there and a wall is already up, you know that you're either up against 1) 1rax FE, 3rax SCV all-in, or a really delayed tech timing (which, in the words of Day9: "If he gets 4 hellions later...then he's just terrible, and you're fine"). So, now we know that a 13 scout is always useful  .
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On October 12 2012 02:25 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 23:43 Teoita wrote:On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing. During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game. You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place? Well, if he walls out your scout and gasses into any kind of factory tech, he can still bunker at the natural and deflect any stalker/zealot pressure. Then those same reads turn into a gamble when you open roboless in PvT. Of course, the Terran too is gambling that you aren't going to do any sort of all-in. Thank god I rarely encounter Terrans that go that so far to meta-game me.
Even a 9 scout mightn't get into the Terran's main if you scout last on Entombed or Antiga in the situation. You can sac a Probe to scout the nat by tanking with the Zealot, or scooting up with the Stalker while tanking with the Zealot. Knowing that there's no natural is enough info, as the economical slowdown caused by the Bunker by the nat slows him down enough to give you enough leeway to be safe against any kind of allin.
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On October 12 2012 02:31 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 00:40 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 23:43 Teoita wrote:On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing. During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game. You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place? What he walls his entrance and you have no intel of what he is doing? then a 13 scout is useless since your probe will sit outside of his base and wont scout anything. I believe that 9 scouting is the way to go with nexus first in order to be positive of what you're facing; this is primarily because the divergence point of your build comes sooner (i.e. build 1 gateway or 2, get gas early, etc, whereas a 1-gate expand would make decisions based on sentries, early robo, extra gateways, etc). 13 scout is perfectly fine in all other builds because it gets to your opponent's base generally before he can normally wall off and you can scout gas + orbital timing. If you get there and a wall is already up, you know that you're either up against 1) 1rax FE, 3rax SCV all-in, or a really delayed tech timing (which, in the words of Day9: "If he gets 4 hellions later...then he's just terrible, and you're fine"). So, now we know that a 13 scout is always useful .
It's not delayed in the least. It's just re-arranging the order the orbital command and second depot are started. It's a minor mineral trade-off.
On October 12 2012 02:33 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:25 rd wrote:On October 11 2012 23:43 Teoita wrote:On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing. During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game. You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place? Well, if he walls out your scout and gasses into any kind of factory tech, he can still bunker at the natural and deflect any stalker/zealot pressure. Then those same reads turn into a gamble when you open roboless in PvT. Of course, the Terran too is gambling that you aren't going to do any sort of all-in. Thank god I rarely encounter Terrans that go that so far to meta-game me. Even a 9 scout mightn't get into the Terran's main if you scout last on Entombed or Antiga in the situation. You can sac a Probe to scout the nat by tanking with the Zealot, or scooting up with the Stalker while tanking with the Zealot. Knowing that there's no natural is enough info, as the economical slowdown caused by the Bunker by the nat slows him down enough to give you enough leeway to be safe against any kind of allin.
Speaking exclusively of non-four player maps, and clarifying that it's not really the same read when you can't account for whether or not they have gas if the Terran wants to metagame you. On certain naturals you simply can't get a probe/zealot past the bunker for vision against an attentive Terran, and potentially saccing a zealot/stalker vs a normal 1 rax fe is huge considering how close I cut my build and how close many others also do.
edit: I feel like testing the timings on when they can start a bunker/exact marine counts with different variations, but even then, that isn't entirely indicative either.
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The worst you lose is a Zealot. If you (toss) are attentive and your timings are correct, you should at most lose only the Probe.
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On October 12 2012 05:09 Gumbi wrote:
The worst you lose is a Zealot. If you (toss) are attentive and your timings are correct, you should at most lose only the Probe.
100 minerals (Zealot) for a chance to scout a 1 rax fe, or a gradual 100 minerals for a guaranteed scout. Your timings can't be any more correct than the Terran's would have to be incorrect; exclusively. Otherwise, you're basically hoping he doesn't click the probe.
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On October 12 2012 06:01 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 05:09 Gumbi wrote:
The worst you lose is a Zealot. If you (toss) are attentive and your timings are correct, you should at most lose only the Probe. 100 minerals (Zealot) for a chance to scout a 1 rax fe, or a gradual 100 minerals for a guaranteed scout. Your timings can't be any more correct than the Terran's would have to be incorrect; exclusively. Otherwise, you're basically hoping he doesn't click the probe.
1. I lose the Zealot only if I make a mistake.
2. If the T isn't cheesing I don't even have to attempt it - so I don't get affected economically by the 9 scout at all (which might not scout up a ramp ANYWAYS on a 3 spawn map).
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2012 22:31 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:32 YesEvil wrote:It would probably be a bit easier if you just watched the latest videos on my stream. www.twitch.tv/rgyesevilI spent some time off from starcraft, and am now set on getting back into it and trying to finally break into Masters.I have a feeling it may be because I don't really have a set build, and am a bit slow on the macro. But you can see for yourself I guess. OK, I will analyze a couple of them. I don't sugarcoat analysis, so be forewarned. Game 1: PvZ on AntigaThis map has stupidly close air spawns, so drops in any matchup are really hard to spot because you have almost no time to do so; this is why tournaments usually force cross-spawns for this map. Nevertheless, you basically didn't scout more than with the initial probe scout, and you should have been checking his third out. If you see 2-base play, what could it be? It basically has to be Lair tech or a bust, and after a bust doesn't show up at the typical timings, you rule that out and know it's Lair tech. Lair tech means drops, Nydus, Mutas, and Hydras. You would have been fine against all 4 of those problems if you had a better build order. Instead, you made a bunch of Zealots, you didn't get charge (even though you had plenty of money and a Twilight Council), and you had nothing that shoots air uints. You also had nothing out there to scout him at all. YOU NEED TO SCOUT!!!! If you're not pressuring your opponent and warping units right into his face, you need to get intel other ways; usually from flying units...this means Obs, Warp Prism, Phoenix, Void Ray, or Hallucinated any of the above. And you need to do it about 4 or 5 minutes before that doom drop happened at your natural. So basically, you played blind all game, your unit composition didn't make any sense, and even though it was an obvious 2base Lair tech build, you left yourself completely exposed to Mutas. This is a fantastic map for Blink Stalkers because almost everything is bordered by cliffs and you can blink in and out of bases very quickly, so if you had gotten blink about 5 minutes earlier and gotten Stalkers instead of Zealots, you would have dominated this guy. Alternatively, you could have gone Stargate early and used that to scout, which would have shown you everything he was doing and then allowed you to transition into mass ranged Phoenixes when you would have seen the spire. Either way, your midgame tech needs to involve some sort of serious scouting, as well as a plan for Mutas. Game 2: PvR on ShakurasYou 4gate this random guy, and I approve. Next. Game 3: PvZ on ShakurasYou scout this zerg, check only 1 of his gases, do not check his pool timing, and then send your probe home. What is he doing? Is he going triple hatch before pool? Is he playing standard? Is he taking gas or multiple gas? This isn't a game of solitaire. You need to be looking for clues about your opponent's next few moves. Instead, you tech 3 different paths at tier 2, you don't scout your opponent at all, and you overmake cannons and defensive units. You can't do this against Zerg. If he just drones up, you lose the game. Period. You have to pressure Zerg or feign pressure, so he doesn't just exponentially ramp his economy up. As a matter of fact, if you play this defensively against any race and they play greedy, you're basically dead. Your wall-off is not solid in this game, so you need to work on that. Practice wall-offs in a custom game--that's what helped me tremendously. You also decided to make a ton of zealots this game, too, and go for Colossi. You float a lot of money and build a lot of tech structures that don't necessarily help your cause. You don't go for any kind of timing attack, nor do you try to take a third before the 15 minute mark. It looks like you have no plan this game, as all of your decisions (or lack thereof) point to you not knowing what to do. That happens to every player at some point, but if you want to get better then you need to break that psychological barrier and get your head into the game. You don't have to go for all-ins, but you should at least have some goals in mind for each stage of the game. I want X or Y unit composition at tier 2, and my favorite tier 3 tech is this one, etc. I thought your army control with Stalker/Sentry/Colossus was good. You had some very calm and effective forcefields. Still, this move-out happend at a time when a Mid- (or even Low-) Masters Zerg would have a maxed army with 20 high-energy Infestors and a bunch of Broods+Corruptors, not this Roach/Hydra crap. You should have been dead. If you want to break into the next level, you will have to be ready to beat players at the next level. --------- A couple of other things I noticed from your play in these games and in others (which I don't have time to analyze): -You seem to need some work on watching the minimap. -Whenever you micro, you tend to overmicro and you also tend to let your macro slip up because you're really focused on the task at hand. You don't need to stutter-step one stalker against 8 overlords if it means you're missing a warp-in by 10 seconds and you have an army that's just sitting around being useless. -Your scouting is seriously insufficient; you basically never know what's coming your way until it hits you in the face. -Your build orders lack direction. It's fine to have some bumps and to improvize and experiment, but you just don't look like you have a plan when you play PvZ. Try teching a little less and just focus on building a strong army that's good against your opponent's units. I think you should focus on specific army compositions, rather than just making a collage of various protoss units. Variety is good, but you should be gradually building different units--not building all kinds of different stuff simultaneously on 2 bases. There are strong aspects to your play, though, too. You have poise when you use your units. You calmly place forcefields, which is rare for someone at your level of playskill. You know how to micro units and you seem to understand how and when to time tech/upgrades (like building that Twilight in time for +1 to finish). You just have some tunnel vision, which is natural. Multitasking and minimap awareness don't come overnight. There was something else I liked about your play, too, but I'm a bit tired and it just slipped my mind. Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:54 AznBoy00 wrote:On October 11 2012 13:12 ineversmile wrote:On October 11 2012 11:52 AznBoy00 wrote:
I have a few question about ladder/meta game etc.
According to the few posts above mentioning that phoenix opening is a really good one, I'm wondering if 2G robo expand is still viable? Because I haven't laddered during the whole summer...(Mid Diamond here)
I am struggling so much against Z due to mass roaches and late game BL Infestors...I have no clue on how to deal against z else than 2 base all in, which works barely nowadays...I've tried so many build orders and I'm about 10% win rate vs Z...(losing all the time T-T, sad :/)
I would need help, because I'm out of ideas on ladder T-T Post a couple replays; a picture is worth a thousand words. If you're actually opening 2G Robo before expanding in that match-up, you're probably falling incredibly behind from the beginning. Gateway expanding is fine, but you should just go 1Gate Nexus (either a YufFE or a 13 Gate 15 gas expand after 1-2 Stalkers) if that's what you want to do. Going 2gate Robo means you have to go and do significant damage to the zerg in order to be even (much less ahead), and most of the time that's only going to work if the zerg royally screws up. 2g robo in pvp, i guess i forgot to mention it :/ I always 1g expo vs t... Well, if you don't type it up, nobody else is going to know what you're talking about. You blend all your match-ups together with that post. If you want some help, you need to organize your thoughts and you probably should post some replays. Use drop.sc, copy-paste the links into your post, easy-peasy.
Thanks man, copying your advice into a notepad document and working on my play from there! You have been a real help, thanks for everything.
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On October 12 2012 06:27 YesEvil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2012 22:31 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:32 YesEvil wrote:It would probably be a bit easier if you just watched the latest videos on my stream. www.twitch.tv/rgyesevilI spent some time off from starcraft, and am now set on getting back into it and trying to finally break into Masters.I have a feeling it may be because I don't really have a set build, and am a bit slow on the macro. But you can see for yourself I guess. OK, I will analyze a couple of them. I don't sugarcoat analysis, so be forewarned. Game 1: PvZ on AntigaThis map has stupidly close air spawns, so drops in any matchup are really hard to spot because you have almost no time to do so; this is why tournaments usually force cross-spawns for this map. Nevertheless, you basically didn't scout more than with the initial probe scout, and you should have been checking his third out. If you see 2-base play, what could it be? It basically has to be Lair tech or a bust, and after a bust doesn't show up at the typical timings, you rule that out and know it's Lair tech. Lair tech means drops, Nydus, Mutas, and Hydras. You would have been fine against all 4 of those problems if you had a better build order. Instead, you made a bunch of Zealots, you didn't get charge (even though you had plenty of money and a Twilight Council), and you had nothing that shoots air uints. You also had nothing out there to scout him at all. YOU NEED TO SCOUT!!!! If you're not pressuring your opponent and warping units right into his face, you need to get intel other ways; usually from flying units...this means Obs, Warp Prism, Phoenix, Void Ray, or Hallucinated any of the above. And you need to do it about 4 or 5 minutes before that doom drop happened at your natural. So basically, you played blind all game, your unit composition didn't make any sense, and even though it was an obvious 2base Lair tech build, you left yourself completely exposed to Mutas. This is a fantastic map for Blink Stalkers because almost everything is bordered by cliffs and you can blink in and out of bases very quickly, so if you had gotten blink about 5 minutes earlier and gotten Stalkers instead of Zealots, you would have dominated this guy. Alternatively, you could have gone Stargate early and used that to scout, which would have shown you everything he was doing and then allowed you to transition into mass ranged Phoenixes when you would have seen the spire. Either way, your midgame tech needs to involve some sort of serious scouting, as well as a plan for Mutas. Game 2: PvR on ShakurasYou 4gate this random guy, and I approve. Next. Game 3: PvZ on ShakurasYou scout this zerg, check only 1 of his gases, do not check his pool timing, and then send your probe home. What is he doing? Is he going triple hatch before pool? Is he playing standard? Is he taking gas or multiple gas? This isn't a game of solitaire. You need to be looking for clues about your opponent's next few moves. Instead, you tech 3 different paths at tier 2, you don't scout your opponent at all, and you overmake cannons and defensive units. You can't do this against Zerg. If he just drones up, you lose the game. Period. You have to pressure Zerg or feign pressure, so he doesn't just exponentially ramp his economy up. As a matter of fact, if you play this defensively against any race and they play greedy, you're basically dead. Your wall-off is not solid in this game, so you need to work on that. Practice wall-offs in a custom game--that's what helped me tremendously. You also decided to make a ton of zealots this game, too, and go for Colossi. You float a lot of money and build a lot of tech structures that don't necessarily help your cause. You don't go for any kind of timing attack, nor do you try to take a third before the 15 minute mark. It looks like you have no plan this game, as all of your decisions (or lack thereof) point to you not knowing what to do. That happens to every player at some point, but if you want to get better then you need to break that psychological barrier and get your head into the game. You don't have to go for all-ins, but you should at least have some goals in mind for each stage of the game. I want X or Y unit composition at tier 2, and my favorite tier 3 tech is this one, etc. I thought your army control with Stalker/Sentry/Colossus was good. You had some very calm and effective forcefields. Still, this move-out happend at a time when a Mid- (or even Low-) Masters Zerg would have a maxed army with 20 high-energy Infestors and a bunch of Broods+Corruptors, not this Roach/Hydra crap. You should have been dead. If you want to break into the next level, you will have to be ready to beat players at the next level. --------- A couple of other things I noticed from your play in these games and in others (which I don't have time to analyze): -You seem to need some work on watching the minimap. -Whenever you micro, you tend to overmicro and you also tend to let your macro slip up because you're really focused on the task at hand. You don't need to stutter-step one stalker against 8 overlords if it means you're missing a warp-in by 10 seconds and you have an army that's just sitting around being useless. -Your scouting is seriously insufficient; you basically never know what's coming your way until it hits you in the face. -Your build orders lack direction. It's fine to have some bumps and to improvize and experiment, but you just don't look like you have a plan when you play PvZ. Try teching a little less and just focus on building a strong army that's good against your opponent's units. I think you should focus on specific army compositions, rather than just making a collage of various protoss units. Variety is good, but you should be gradually building different units--not building all kinds of different stuff simultaneously on 2 bases. There are strong aspects to your play, though, too. You have poise when you use your units. You calmly place forcefields, which is rare for someone at your level of playskill. You know how to micro units and you seem to understand how and when to time tech/upgrades (like building that Twilight in time for +1 to finish). You just have some tunnel vision, which is natural. Multitasking and minimap awareness don't come overnight. There was something else I liked about your play, too, but I'm a bit tired and it just slipped my mind. Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:54 AznBoy00 wrote:On October 11 2012 13:12 ineversmile wrote:On October 11 2012 11:52 AznBoy00 wrote:
I have a few question about ladder/meta game etc.
According to the few posts above mentioning that phoenix opening is a really good one, I'm wondering if 2G robo expand is still viable? Because I haven't laddered during the whole summer...(Mid Diamond here)
I am struggling so much against Z due to mass roaches and late game BL Infestors...I have no clue on how to deal against z else than 2 base all in, which works barely nowadays...I've tried so many build orders and I'm about 10% win rate vs Z...(losing all the time T-T, sad :/)
I would need help, because I'm out of ideas on ladder T-T Post a couple replays; a picture is worth a thousand words. If you're actually opening 2G Robo before expanding in that match-up, you're probably falling incredibly behind from the beginning. Gateway expanding is fine, but you should just go 1Gate Nexus (either a YufFE or a 13 Gate 15 gas expand after 1-2 Stalkers) if that's what you want to do. Going 2gate Robo means you have to go and do significant damage to the zerg in order to be even (much less ahead), and most of the time that's only going to work if the zerg royally screws up. 2g robo in pvp, i guess i forgot to mention it :/ I always 1g expo vs t... Well, if you don't type it up, nobody else is going to know what you're talking about. You blend all your match-ups together with that post. If you want some help, you need to organize your thoughts and you probably should post some replays. Use drop.sc, copy-paste the links into your post, easy-peasy. Thanks man, copying your advice into a notepad document and working on my play from there! You have been a real help, thanks for everything.
Good attitude. SC2 is actually a really hard game, Diamond players and above tend to underestimate the amount of effort that goes into the game from the perspective of an absolute noob. Just keep on incrementally improving your play, and before long you'll be a much improved player.
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On October 12 2012 06:27 YesEvil wrote:Thanks man, copying your advice into a notepad document and working on my play from there! You have been a real help, thanks for everything.
You're welcome! One more thing you could do to help yourself out: Since you already have the capability to stream, you should record your games from XSplit or whatever other program you use, while you play. Then watch from your perspective--this should help you understand the times when you're not watching the minimap or you're otherwise getting a bit of tunnel vision.
On October 11 2012 23:43 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:08 Empire.Mista wrote:On October 11 2012 20:19 Teoita wrote:
All of that is fine and dandy, but you can still have good enough scouting info and reads on a Terran with 13 scout on most reasonable maps (on ladder the only one that's completely idiotic is condemned ridge and none plays it anyway).
There's a reason why every high level player goes 13 scout, or even later. I recommend a 9 scout vs terran or a no scout , because a smart terran will make a full wall of of his base and then your probe just wasted 70 mineral of mining for nothing. During OSL groups, Grubby mentioned how he thinks that 9scout to check if you can nex first isn't good since the terran can see the timing and reactively marine scv-allin, which is exactly what happened in that game. You can make the same reads off a 9scout that you can with a 13 scout and zealot/stalker poke later on so why waste mining time in the first place?
Well, if you think about it, the 9 scout isn't to see whether not you can Nexus first. It's to see what you do after you drop the Nexus. If you scout a blatant 2Rax or even Proxy play, you can keep your Nexus but you might want to transfer probes early in order to pull them quickly for defense (or set them up in a flank and hit from 2 sides). You might want to build another Gate, or save chronos for Zealots instead of Probes. Or if you think Hellions are coming, you might keep all your workers in your main and oversaturate it to be safe until you have enough stuff to guard to mineral lines. There's a lot more to it than just your build order; it's pretty huge to make adjustments after throwing down that Nexus.
I'm a pretty firm believer in listening to Grubby; he is a student of the game and basically everything he says will come from logic and experience. However, I think you might be misinterpreting him, here.
On October 12 2012 02:33 Gumbi wrote:Even a 9 scout mightn't get into the Terran's main if you scout last on Entombed or Antiga in the situation. You can sac a Probe to scout the nat by tanking with the Zealot, or scooting up with the Stalker while tanking with the Zealot. Knowing that there's no natural is enough info, as the economical slowdown caused by the Bunker by the nat slows him down enough to give you enough leeway to be safe against any kind of allin.
Terrans are less inclined to block early on a 4-player map because the odds do not favor the probe showing up early, so it's hard to justify that early block over just playing greedier. You also can double scout, if you really want to get into the Terran's base--I don't normally recommend this, but if it's a BoX versus a really cheesy player, then there's some merit to this. Conversely, though, the terran has to scout to find out where you are, and that means you're also protected by the 4 player map's random misinformation. If he wants to cheese you (which is something you're really trying to figure out from a 9 scout), then he has to do it near the middle of the map and you could scout those locations.
Personally, I prefer to still 9 scout on most 4-player maps, but I scout cross-map first and I have two different gameplans based upon being close spawn or cross-map, assuming I scout his location last and get blocked out. On Entombed, for example, this means going by the tower, then going past a wall in the middle. There's a high chance of scouting proxies this way and the second location is scouted before a normal timing for the second supply depot, so it's a little bit of a gamble--but you basically find out what you need to know: You know it's close spawn right away, you figure out where the units are coming from after checking the second base, and then when you scout the other side of the map you see the rest of the proxy locations and that indicates what you want to do, and it does so before your Nexus finishes (in case you want to cancel it). But obviously, you wouldn't scout this way unless it's Nexus first; the scout is just there to see how many more corners you can cut on top of opening up with a really fast Expo.
On October 12 2012 02:37 rd wrote:It's not delayed in the least. It's just re-arranging the order the orbital command and second depot are started. It's a minor mineral trade-off.
In the case of the Hellion openings, delaying your Orbital slightly will have a ripple effect and delay building those very mineral-heavy Hellions, or forcing you to do less other stuff like powering up or building a CC. For Hellion/Rax all-ins, this isn't a big deal, but it matters to the 1-1-1 variants and Hellion-->expansion openings, where the Hellions are supposed to hurt Toss's economy before another stage in the Terran's gameplan. So yeah, it's a mineral trade-off, but that matters for Hellion openers.
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm a pretty firm believer in listening to Grubby; he is a student of the game and basically everything he says will come from logic and experience. However, I think you might be misinterpreting him, here.
Not much to mis interpret there. His actual words were "i think 9 scout off nexus first is bad, because the only reason to do it is if you are going Nex first like Flying is doing here. With such a fast scouting timing you are showing your hand, and as we can see Baby is reacting to this timing with another hidden barracks, so this will probably be a marine scv all-in with a very good chance of succeding".
You can gets how that game went. Not pretty for Flying, at all.
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On October 12 2012 07:09 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +I'm a pretty firm believer in listening to Grubby; he is a student of the game and basically everything he says will come from logic and experience. However, I think you might be misinterpreting him, here. Not much to mis interpret there. His actual words were "i think 9 scout off nexus first is bad, because the only reason to do it is if you are going Nex first like Flying is doing here. With such a fast scouting timing you are showing your hand, and as we can see Baby is reacting to this timing with another hidden barracks, so this will probably be a marine scv all-in with a very good chance of succeding". You can gets how that game went. Not pretty for Flying, at all.
I would like to see the VOD of this, if it's out there--there's only so much Starcraft I can watch and I've missed out on a lot of the OSL.
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Italy12246 Posts
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You're gambling so much more than I am. The worst that happens to me is I lose a Probe. You are sacrificing eco EVERY game, for information that's likely equal to mine. The potential gain is statistically less likely, and practically (as in, I can react to danger as efficiently as you) not worth it. This is further compounded by your assumptions of greed in the case of the likelihood of scouting on a 4 player map.
Ultimately, you're gambling more than I am with a 9 scout.
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Bummer. Well, I wish I had seen that game, but I guess this part of the discussion is water under the bridge since the game is PPV and I don't own a money tree.
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On October 12 2012 08:01 Gumbi wrote:
You're gambling so much more than I am. The worst that happens to me is I lose a Probe. You are sacrificing eco EVERY game, for information that's likely equal to mine. The potential gain is statistically less likely, and practically (as in, I can react to danger as efficiently as you) not worth it. This is further compounded by your assumptions of greed in the case of the likelihood of scouting on a 4 player map.
Ultimately, you're gambling more than I am with a 9 scout.
Not sure who you're replying to but I'm not arguing to 9 scout. I'm just clarifying that 13 scout isn't as solid, thus you're still gambling vs some gas openings -- especially when you open roboless. (it appears?) You're trying to argue that 13 scout can reliably deduce gas openings, which you can't? Stating that 13 scouting gambles less than a 9 scout is a much more reasonable assertion.
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On October 12 2012 09:00 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 08:01 Gumbi wrote:
You're gambling so much more than I am. The worst that happens to me is I lose a Probe. You are sacrificing eco EVERY game, for information that's likely equal to mine. The potential gain is statistically less likely, and practically (as in, I can react to danger as efficiently as you) not worth it. This is further compounded by your assumptions of greed in the case of the likelihood of scouting on a 4 player map.
Ultimately, you're gambling more than I am with a 9 scout. Not sure who you're replying to but I'm not arguing to 9 scout. I'm just clarifying that 13 scout isn't as solid, thus you're still gambling vs some gas openings -- especially when you open roboless. (it appears?) You're trying to argue that 13 scout can reliably deduce gas openings, which you can't? Stating that 13 scouting gambles less than a 9 scout is a much more reasonable assertion.
I am arguing that a 9 scout gambles more over the long term (over some x amount of games) than a 13 scout, and that it is within the abilities if a 13 scout to reliably deduce enough information to sufficiently react to anything Terran can throw at you (assuming 1 Gate expand) - excluding things like blind proxy raxes close pos entombed and you scout last - something that won't happen in a tournie.
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EPT
