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Okay, so I've got two questions, one for PvT the other for PvZ.
1) Vs. ing early 2+rax concussive marauder marine push (~5 marines+~2 marauders etc)
What is a proper response to it? It would be great if there could be more detailed explanations; like what to make out of gateway in order(is it Zealot-Stalker-Sentry?), how many gateways should I start once I see a second rax and tech lab, when it is safe to start the Nexus, where should I invest my chronoboosts (is it gateway or warpgate research?) etc.
I don't favor aggressive playstyle, so I am not a fan of options like 4-gating myself, but I am open to anything. This build is killing me just way too often, my PvT is like at 10% ratio. I seriously won only 3 games so far against Terran since new season came out.
2) Zerg going Hatch first, I get scouting last in 4-player maps.
Again, what am I supposed to do? It is so frustrating because hatch first in ZvP is already so risky and rare so that I hardly face the BO, yet if I find him at the last spot it is too late to cannon rush him (especially if I did not open with FFE). I don't think I could outright win a macro game against a hatch-first Zerg, is there any other viable ways to counter this?
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On August 23 2011 10:37 Lisitsa wrote:
2) Zerg going Hatch first, I get scouting last in 4-player maps.
Again, what am I supposed to do? It is so frustrating because hatch first in ZvP is already so risky and rare so that I hardly face the BO, yet if I find him at the last spot it is too late to cannon rush him (especially if I did not open with FFE). I don't think I could outright win a macro game against a hatch-first Zerg, is there any other viable ways to counter this?
If you are unlucky with scouting and didn t go FFE against 15 hatch you have several options. You can first of all use your first stalkers to poke in, do some kiting against lings and put up a bit of pressure.
DTs are always an option, especially against early hatch. You can play them like 2 gate DTs into expo or as an All In with Archons if you fail(Maybe 5 gate with Nexus cancel). It all depends on what you prefer.
You can also just take your own expansion earlier(1 gate Expo) if you feel comfortable. Sure it is a bit of gambling, but can be worth the risk.
I don t know how good StarGate is against 15 hatch. Maybe it s very strong and a good option. I don t play it often, so can t help you with that one.
If you just follow up with a usual 3 gate expo, you ll end up being far behind and really need to do something to get equal again.
Hope this helps.
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PvZ - ling infestor vs blink stalker sentry high templar. Do I prioritize storming his lings, or do I prioritize using feedback on infestors? My high templar are limited by energy as well as my very average APM.
EDIT: I also feel like I can't be aggressive until my templar are out which usually means letting the Z get away with relatively greedy 3rd/4th bases... usually when I try to pressure ling infestor my entire army dies and I lose the game. I'm fine pressuring roach/ling or roach/hydra with the standard stalker/sentry/zealot with good FF placement mini-ball. Should I have a different approach to pressuring ling/infestor? Basically, what are some ways I can pressure the Z before templar are out?
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Deleted.
Edit/ Can I delete posts?
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@Whistle - what is your standard opening in PvZ?
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On August 23 2011 13:12 whistle wrote:
PvZ - ling infestor vs blink stalker sentry high templar. Do I prioritize storming his lings, or do I prioritize using feedback on infestors? My high templar are limited by energy as well as my very average APM.
EDIT: I also feel like I can't be aggressive until my templar are out which usually means letting the Z get away with relatively greedy 3rd/4th bases... usually when I try to pressure ling infestor my entire army dies and I lose the game. I'm fine pressuring roach/ling or roach/hydra with the standard stalker/sentry/zealot with good FF placement mini-ball. Should I have a different approach to pressuring ling/infestor? Basically, what are some ways I can pressure the Z before templar are out?
I'd say priortize feedbacking infestors if possible unless templar are about to die and no infestors are in range.
Yea a better approach to pressuring ling/infestor is to not go stalker/sentry/HT :p ling/infestor hard counters sentries and kinda counters blink stalkers, depending on micro. I would incorporate more zealots into your army, use no sentries, and pre-emptively morph some HTs into archons while using using your HTs mainly just for feedback (don't even bother researching storm).
If you want to pressure the Z before templar are out, my favorite strat right now is to do 6 gate +1 zeal while teching to templar. If you did some sentry/stalker opening there really is no way to pressure the zerg. If you skip sentries and just go pure zealots, at worst you just trade zealots for lings at cost, even if lings greatly outnumber you. At best you trade in your favor while keeping the zerg from droning or even killing drones. As soon as the zerg makes roaches then you can start sentry/stalker, otherwise if the zerg is insistent on making pure lings while teching to infestor then you tech to archon and just a-move for the win.
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On August 23 2011 13:56 SigmaX wrote:
@Whistle - what is your standard opening in PvZ?
either FFE (Shakuras, Antiga, Nerazim, Tal Darim) or 1/3 Gate Sentry expand (all others, depends on gas timing). thinking about adding Time's 2 Gate expo into my repertoire but I want to work on the "classics" first.
On August 23 2011 16:20 Anihc wrote:Yea a better approach to pressuring ling/infestor is to not go stalker/sentry/HT :p ling/infestor hard counters sentries and kinda counters blink stalkers, depending on micro. I would incorporate more zealots into your army, use no sentries, and pre-emptively morph some HTs into archons while using using your HTs mainly just for feedback (don't even bother researching storm).
what kind of army composition are we aiming for here? when I heard other people tell me to use zealots I ended up with 70% zealot 10% HT 5% archon 15% stalker/sentry and that didn't work out too well. usually Z sees my obviously zealot heavy mix and make a massive round of roaches after an exchange, while I'm still stuck in the same anti-ling composition. also I had LOTS of trouble with brood lords - partially because of scouting but partially because almost nothing in that composition shoots up.
my playstyle with stalker/sentry [colossus/ht/immortal] vs classic roach armies is to macro up while stopping Z from taking a 4th. I am a fan of spoons. is this not ideal with a zealot heavy army (i.e. should I try to kill him around 100-150 food when there are tons of lings in his army)?
On August 23 2011 16:20 Anihc wrote:If you want to pressure the Z before templar are out, my favorite strat right now is to do 6 gate +1 zeal while teching to templar. If you did some sentry/stalker opening there really is no way to pressure the zerg. If you skip sentries and just go pure zealots, at worst you just trade zealots for lings at cost, even if lings greatly outnumber you. At best you trade in your favor while keeping the zerg from droning or even killing drones. As soon as the zerg makes roaches then you can start sentry/stalker, otherwise if the zerg is insistent on making pure lings while teching to infestor then you tech to archon and just a-move for the win.
this sounds interesting; my main question is how I should know to deviate from the standard stalker/sentry 6 gate push into a zealot based one. I don't know how to get scouting information about what tech path he's going between ~5 to 8 minutes off a FFE (hallucination for sentry expands). usually I sac a probe around 5 minutes but it either sees nothing but drones or gets taken out by a few lings... and any Z makes a small pack of map control lings, right? regardless of roach or ling/infestor tech. is the main tell-tale 3rd/4th gas?
also: is this mainly a FFE transition? because it doesn't sound very safe to go sentry light with a gateway expo.
thanks a lot for the answer!
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On August 23 2011 06:35 Squigly wrote:This thread isnt very helpful. The replays are against badly executed attempts. It may well work but the replays arent great. If someone could post decent replays of beating it it would help.
Socke held it against Select (i think) at IEM using collossus. It was in the group stage and all the replays are up should be able to find it
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12185
10 pool killed me. My zealot was out in time. Still died because I can't block and defend my gateway at the same time... What am I supposed to do here huh? I can't get a ranged unit out in time...
I am diamond... I almost makes me cry to lose to something so stupid. ARGH!
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On August 23 2011 17:14 whistle wrote:
what kind of army composition are we aiming for here? when I heard other people tell me to use zealots I ended up with 70% zealot 10% HT 5% archon 15% stalker/sentry and that didn't work out too well. usually Z sees my obviously zealot heavy mix and make a massive round of roaches after an exchange, while I'm still stuck in the same anti-ling composition. also I had LOTS of trouble with brood lords - partially because of scouting but partially because almost nothing in that composition shoots up.
my playstyle with stalker/sentry [colossus/ht/immortal] vs classic roach armies is to macro up while stopping Z from taking a 4th. I am a fan of spoons. is this not ideal with a zealot heavy army (i.e. should I try to kill him around 100-150 food when there are tons of lings in his army)?
You have to adjust. If the zerg starts making more roaches again you make more stalker/immortal. And anyway zealots are essentially free, it's your gas units that should be the bulk of your army. If making more zealots if causing the rest of your army to be considerably smaller, you have macro issues and/or you're not making enough probes.
Personally I don't really the the stalker/ht/immortal combination, it's really strong yes but takes a lot of micro to use effectively. If my opponent makes any roaches at all I just go stalker/sentry (mixing in zealots against lings) into colossus and skip the templar tech until later, even against infestors. Infestors do not counter colossus at all.
As for the brood lord issue, you have to keep teching - you can't stay on a zealot/stalker/ht army the entire game. By the time brood lords are out you should have enough income for either some void rays, several archons, a LOT of stalkers, etc. If you find that all you have is still just mostly zealot/sentry/stalker and a few HT laying around when brood lords are out you've probably been behind the entire game and have already lost.
On August 23 2011 17:14 whistle wrote:
this sounds interesting; my main question is how I should know to deviate from the standard stalker/sentry 6 gate push into a zealot based one. I don't know how to get scouting information about what tech path he's going between ~5 to 8 minutes off a FFE (hallucination for sentry expands). usually I sac a probe around 5 minutes but it either sees nothing but drones or gets taken out by a few lings... and any Z makes a small pack of map control lings, right? regardless of roach or ling/infestor tech. is the main tell-tale 3rd/4th gas?
also: is this mainly a FFE transition? because it doesn't sound very safe to go sentry light with a gateway expo.
thanks a lot for the answer!
Yes this is purely a FFE transition. I have a replay of me using this in the "Chinese PvZ" thread where I transition into blink stalker. Basically you just chrono warpgate tech all the way, cut probes temporarily to throw up 6 gates, and attack with your first round of warpins (6 zealots, hopefully proxied) at 8:00. Between probe scouting and this attack, I scout with 1-2 zealots as well. But those 1-2 zealots are mainly just for detecting all-ins, the initial 6 zealot warp in is what I use to both scout and pressure the zerg. After I warp those zealots in I throw down either a twilight or robo or both as well.
Then you can play purely reactionary:
3rd base - pressure it until roaches come out. Don't overcommit. You should be able to do some damage to it if not kill it outright since most players don't expect 6 +1 zealots at 8:00, which will always beat pure lings. If they somehow have 3 bases AND roaches by 8:00 then they weren't really droning hardcore and can't have a stronger eco than you.
2 base - If there’s a wall of spines, don’t engage, and start teching to templar because mutas or infestors are coming. Don’t make sentries. If he continues to make lings, keep throwing zealots at him until he shows tech. Again hydra or roach, start making sentry/stalker at home and prepare to defend while getting a robo.
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awesome that post was extremely helpful, thanks. if I still have problems after working on the style+macro I will post some replays.
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What's the proper response against Terran Mech? I've been trying to go colossus and the proper gateway mix, but I'm not quite sure....and by Terran Mech I mean blue flame hellions, thors, tanks, etc maybe a few vikings...
I heard somewhere that stargate would work but I seriously have no idea how valid this is.
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Hey all, really struggling against pushes from terran before I have enough tech to feel "comfortable"
Heres some replays of losses that I just dont know how to stop. I would love some feedback on them.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227860.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227861.jpg)
Thanks!
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On August 24 2011 02:55 FistofKhala wrote:
What's the proper response against Terran Mech? I've been trying to go colossus and the proper gateway mix, but I'm not quite sure....and by Terran Mech I mean blue flame hellions, thors, tanks, etc maybe a few vikings...
I heard somewhere that stargate would work but I seriously have no idea how valid this is.
Any combination of twilight upgraded zealot/stalker, immortals, colossus, and void rays is going to be pretty good for the early-mid game. You just don't want to be making sentries or HTs.
Some people prefer a lot of blink stalkers to take advantage of a mech terran's lack of mobility. Some people prefer mass chargelot/immortal/void ray. My personal preference is to get double robo with mass immortal/colossus and a few gateway units, mostly zealots.
However, when you get to late game and 200/200 armies, especially on some maps, imo the only way to reliably beat mech terran is with mass carriers.
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2 PvZ questions.
I typically open with FFE into stargate, making 1 to 3 voids. First question:
How do I optimally use my first void ray? Usually I rally it where his third base is likely to be, killing any overlords on the way. But I also want to go for his main and get critical scouting information about what he is building. For example, if he is making a spire, I'd want to cut voids immediately. Given how slow and vulnerable VRs are, it seems hard to both pressure and scout with them at the same time.
Second question:
Same set up as above, but I see (or suspect) that he is going for quick hydras. On maps with short rush distances, it can be deadly. What is the proper response? I don't think colossus can be up in time (certainly not with range). I lost a few games to quick hydras recently.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 23 2011 23:17 Mozdk wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/1218510 pool killed me. My zealot was out in time. Still died because I can't block and defend my gateway at the same time... What am I supposed to do here huh? I can't get a ranged unit out in time... I am diamond... I almost makes me cry to lose to something so stupid. ARGH!
First of all, you should recognize different pool timings. 2:30 is 10 pool and 2:40 is 11 pool. They have different reactions. You should not be trying to block his hatch if you scout a 10 pool
Vs 10 pool:
Cut a probe to get a cyber out asap and then zealot out asap. Chorno 2 zealots out and then a stalker. As the 2nd zealot is right about to pop out, pull 6-8 probes and probe drill them through his lings while you move out with our zealots. 2 zealots + your probes will be able to deal with any amount of lings he can produce. Then, pressure him with stalkers as his gas will be late because of the 10 pool and heavy gas investment. This should give you enough of an economic advantage to win you the game.
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On August 24 2011 03:42 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:55 FistofKhala wrote:
What's the proper response against Terran Mech? I've been trying to go colossus and the proper gateway mix, but I'm not quite sure....and by Terran Mech I mean blue flame hellions, thors, tanks, etc maybe a few vikings...
I heard somewhere that stargate would work but I seriously have no idea how valid this is. Any combination of twilight upgraded zealot/stalker, immortals, colossus, and void rays is going to be pretty good for the early-mid game. You just don't want to be making sentries or HTs. Some people prefer a lot of blink stalkers to take advantage of a mech terran's lack of mobility. Some people prefer mass chargelot/immortal/void ray. My personal preference is to get double robo with mass immortal/colossus and a few gateway units, mostly zealots. However, when you get to late game and 200/200 armies, especially on some maps, imo the only way to reliably beat mech terran is with mass carriers.
Yes you have to be very careful when engaging a terran mech army and take a look at his army first. Ghosts can render immortals useless (ghost mech) and you dont want any zealots at all if he has a lot of blue flame hellions. I also like the blink stalker part, it's very good for razing terran production or far bases. Adding colossus to that is also nice as they can cliff walk. And be careful with blue flame hellion drops, they can make you lose a game you should have won.
That is from experience vs a clan mate who goes mech all the time haha. Late game I think mothership is a nice addition vs mech for recalls. Something I want to try out but haven't been able to yet is getting a mothership and a bunch of full energy sentries and then recalling a hallucinated army to force the terran mech army out of position.
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On August 24 2011 05:28 eugalp wrote:
2 PvZ questions.
I typically open with FFE into stargate, making 1 to 3 voids. First question:
How do I optimally use my first void ray? Usually I rally it where his third base is likely to be, killing any overlords on the way. But I also want to go for his main and get critical scouting information about what he is building. For example, if he is making a spire, I'd want to cut voids immediately. Given how slow and vulnerable VRs are, it seems hard to both pressure and scout with them at the same time.
Second question:
Same set up as above, but I see (or suspect) that he is going for quick hydras. On maps with short rush distances, it can be deadly. What is the proper response? I don't think colossus can be up in time (certainly not with range). I lost a few games to quick hydras recently.
I like to do it like MC and hide them until I have three, it's easier to kill the third like that. And about scouting, you can get a phoenix after the voidrays to scout the main, they are a lot faster and should be able to do it just fine. Going fast three bases into mutas isn't something I have seen a lot but yes you are pretty vulnerable to it.
If you cut gas heavy units (sentries) from your gateway you should be able to get a robo while your second voidray is building. You pretty much know he has to get hydras and observers are still useful if he gets mutas. Yeah you won't have range in time most likely, depending on fast he pushes, but you should have colossi out in time.
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On August 23 2011 10:37 Lisitsa wrote:
Okay, so I've got two questions, one for PvT the other for PvZ.
1) Vs. ing early 2+rax concussive marauder marine push (~5 marines+~2 marauders etc)
What is a proper response to it? It would be great if there could be more detailed explanations; like what to make out of gateway in order(is it Zealot-Stalker-Sentry?), how many gateways should I start once I see a second rax and tech lab, when it is safe to start the Nexus, where should I invest my chronoboosts (is it gateway or warpgate research?) etc.
I don't favor aggressive playstyle, so I am not a fan of options like 4-gating myself, but I am open to anything. This build is killing me just way too often, my PvT is like at 10% ratio. I seriously won only 3 games so far against Terran since new season came out.
2) Zerg going Hatch first, I get scouting last in 4-player maps.
Again, what am I supposed to do? It is so frustrating because hatch first in ZvP is already so risky and rare so that I hardly face the BO, yet if I find him at the last spot it is too late to cannon rush him (especially if I did not open with FFE). I don't think I could outright win a macro game against a hatch-first Zerg, is there any other viable ways to counter this?
So vs 2 rax aggression the standard MC stalker sentry sentry can defend them from coming up your ramp, if u scout a 2 rax or suspect it a 3 gate expand is recommend as a 1 gate FE will just die or 1 gate robo will be delayed as your forced 2 imortals out. Just expand ASAP after you think you have enough units 2 defend. if hes bunker-ed up you need 2 bust early before the bunkers can get up which is when its tricky but with good FF and stalker target firing you should be fine.
2. Hatch first means no ling speed which means zealot+stalker early pressure can often give you back the lead you had as you can force 8+lings making him lose drones while your 1 gate into Forge expand giving you a nice lead 
Masters p .
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United States8477 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:28 eugalp wrote:
2 PvZ questions.
I typically open with FFE into stargate, making 1 to 3 voids. First question:
How do I optimally use my first void ray? Usually I rally it where his third base is likely to be, killing any overlords on the way. But I also want to go for his main and get critical scouting information about what he is building. For example, if he is making a spire, I'd want to cut voids immediately. Given how slow and vulnerable VRs are, it seems hard to both pressure and scout with them at the same time.
Second question:
Same set up as above, but I see (or suspect) that he is going for quick hydras. On maps with short rush distances, it can be deadly. What is the proper response? I don't think colossus can be up in time (certainly not with range). I lost a few games to quick hydras recently.
1. There are 2 main ways to open voidrays in PvZ. The first is that you get 1 voidray and then follow up with phoenix. You shouldn't expect to do much damage with this. Use the first voidray to pressure and use the first followup phoenix to scout and then meet him up with the voidray.
The other way is more cheesy and less safe. It involves hiding 3 voidrays for as long as possible before you show them and try to kill something big with these voidrays such as a hatchery. However, this strategy is very vulnerable to mutalisks, and you can't really scout the mutas.
What you're describing seems to be a combination of the 2 openings. You show 1 voidray and gradually add on voidrays. I don't particularly like this style, because you're basically showing your opponent your cards before you play them. You also don't get the scouting information as you'd like. So I guess my answer to your question is that with what you're currently doing, you have to make a decision for yourself whether scouting or possibly more damage is better, but it's probably better to just slightly vary your build.
2. There are 2 ways to approach this. The first is a very fast blind robo, as in a robo right after the first void ray. You will have a collosi in time for the hydra drop or hydra attack.
The 2nd way is to add 3 gates before even adding the robo. You will rely on gateway units to defend hydras drops and cannons to defend frontal hydra attacks while slowly getting your first collosi. Anything in between is certain death, as you will be caught with collosi tech but no collosi. This was demonstrated in the GSL finals game on Termius RE MC vs July.
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EPT
