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Brolettuce
United States48 Posts
On May 30 2012 23:44 Rimak wrote: See rescent streams of CreatorPrime. He is going for a fast third (8 min), robo-twilight PvZ. Should be the one you're looking for. i know he does but i acutally want help since i cant watch streams always anybody have an answer for me? | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On May 31 2012 04:55 Brolettuce wrote: i know he does but i acutally want help since i cant watch streams always anybody have an answer for me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905 As usual, searching for [g] helps. | ||
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SxGAtonomous
Canada8 Posts
Sincerely, Boreas | ||
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zeninja
1 Post
At the moment I've been trying to FFE against zerg and go into stargate and then robo but this seems to get crushed by early roach counts and if I lose my phoenixes mutas take it out too. Against Protoss I've been trying to do a 3 Stalker rush into 3 Gate Robo but it always seems like the other person goes 1gate robo and crushes my stalkers by the time they get to the other base and I lose to a counterattack. Against Terran I've been trying to 1 gate expand into chargelot/templar but it seems like I just can't get enough units early on to hold early aggression. Any help would be really appreciated! Thanks for reading! | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
To be honest at first I was really confused about what contain you were talking about... that was only a contain in the lightest sense of the word. That meant your poor engagement angle didn't really factor into the outcome, thankfully. You could try flanking from the watchtower if you can get your observer over his army which would solve that problem in the future.
Do you usually skip sentries? Seems a bit risky + unnecessary damper on midgame army strength. Maybe you should get your second gas quicker so you can afford them. e: On May 31 2012 05:47 zeninja wrote: I'm top 8 in Gold right now and have really hit a wall in terms of improvement. I was wondering if anyone could give me 1 build to focus on in each of the matches. At the moment I've been trying to FFE against zerg and go into stargate and then robo but this seems to get crushed by early roach counts and if I lose my phoenixes mutas take it out too. Against Protoss I've been trying to do a 3 Stalker rush into 3 Gate Robo but it always seems like the other person goes 1gate robo and crushes my stalkers by the time they get to the other base and I lose to a counterattack. Against Terran I've been trying to 1 gate expand into chargelot/templar but it seems like I just can't get enough units early on to hold early aggression. Any help would be really appreciated! Thanks for reading! You need to post replays. Those strategies are frequently used by top players in tournaments, but your problems are so vague it's hard to say what's going wrong without seeing games. | ||
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Raggamuffinoo
United Kingdom117 Posts
On May 31 2012 05:47 zeninja wrote: I'm top 8 in Gold right now and have really hit a wall in terms of improvement. I was wondering if anyone could give me 1 build to focus on in each of the matches. At the moment I've been trying to FFE against zerg and go into stargate and then robo but this seems to get crushed by early roach counts and if I lose my phoenixes mutas take it out too. Against Protoss I've been trying to do a 3 Stalker rush into 3 Gate Robo but it always seems like the other person goes 1gate robo and crushes my stalkers by the time they get to the other base and I lose to a counterattack. Against Terran I've been trying to 1 gate expand into chargelot/templar but it seems like I just can't get enough units early on to hold early aggression. Any help would be really appreciated! Thanks for reading! I recommend fast robotics and twilight after FFE, get warpprism/obs and blink and tech to colossus. You should have blink before 10 minutes to combat possible muta harass and be cost effective fighting roach with stalkers. If you lose your stalkers, you are over committing. A 3 stalker rush is to secure vision and map control around your base to deny proxy pylons. After the 6 minute mark is when you should be around his base to scout his natural and set up your own proxy pylons. 7 minutes is when you should be aware of possible fast blink and have units in position in your base. With speed zealot templar/archon, armor upgrades are key to success. With the prevalence of forge builds vs terran I would recommend you try some cannons (if early aggression is scouted). + Show Spoiler + 9 pylon 11 chrono nexus 12 chrono nexus 13 scout 16 nexus 16 gateway 17 pylon at natural 18 gas 19 chrono nexus 20 cyber core 20 forge 21 chrono nexus stalker scout | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Ry-Masta-T
United States478 Posts
On May 31 2012 03:44 Zedrewo wrote: Hello, does anyone know if you can punish a zerg who goes for muta on 3base or am i forced to defend and play a really long macro game? (high master) mutas are a pain to deal with. There are a few solutions. You can add some cannons, camp your base with blink stalkers, throw down 2 stargates -> fleet beacon and get +1 / range phoenixes. this basically shuts down any muta stuff once you get liek 8 or 10 out. This is very strong vs a dedicated muta player, however, this can be an issue if he only gets like 10 mutas and then switches to infestor or hydras. The other solution is to get blink, a lot of stalkers, defend your bases with a few cannons, and tech up to storm. 1 or 2 templar and about 3 cannons per base should allow you to defend the muta harass. Then move out with some archons and/or templar in your army to make short work of the mutas. I don't think there's really a good way to "punish" a zerg who goes for mutas. A while back it was thought that 2 base gateway allins were basically a hard counter to muta play, and that probably still holds. The problem is that you need to scout the mutas before reacting with the gateway all-in. You could go for a lot of early sentries and work hallucination scouting into your standard style, allowing you to do a strong push while they are trying to build up there muta ball. The only problem with this is, if they don't go for mutas, your early sentries will limit your options for aggression and they will probably just macro like crazy and roach the shit out of you. I like planning for some early aggression (+1 zealot poke at the third) to hamper their economic growth while quickly moving up to +2 blink stalkers with immortals and trying to work in storm while taking a third. blink stalker/immortal/templar is pretty strong vs just about everything. | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
Is there a way to pressure toss early game apart from 2 rax that won't put me significally behind if it fails? :D | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
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Ry-Masta-T
United States478 Posts
On May 31 2012 07:34 Sergio1992 wrote: so, fellow terran here invading this place to steal your secrets! ;P Is there a way to pressure toss early game apart from 2 rax that won't put me significally behind if it fails? :D These days, with everyone going for economic openers, failed early aggression generally puts you significantly behind. Reaper can be strong if they open nexus -> forge, depending on the map. Cloak banshee can be strong too, but I don't think that's what you meant by early game pressure. 2 rax is strong though, especially on maps like Tal Darim and Metalopolis. I wouldnt rule that out. | ||
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soon.Cloak
United States983 Posts
Sorry if this was already posted, not going through 200+ pages  | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On May 31 2012 09:44 soon.Cloak wrote: I keep reading about PvT gas scouting. 2 gas I assume is quick banshee, but what do you learn from 0/1? 0=FE? 1=anything? Sorry if this was already posted, not going through 200+ pages 0 is either 1rax FE or some kind of marine-SCV all-in. 1 can be anything from 2rax to 1/1/1 to 1rax techlab expand. 2 ...idk cloaked banshees or 1/1/1 are the only possibilities i can think of. Or maybe he's just terrible. | ||
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RonnieStiggs
United States1 Post
I'm top 8 in Gold right now and have really hit a wall in terms of improvement. I was wondering if anyone could give me 1 build to focus on in each of the matches. At the moment I've been trying to FFE against zerg and go into stargate and then robo but this seems to get crushed by early roach counts and if I lose my phoenixes mutas take it out too. Against Protoss I've been trying to do a 3 Stalker rush into 3 Gate Robo but it always seems like the other person goes 1gate robo and crushes my stalkers by the time they get to the other base and I lose to a counterattack. Against Terran I've been trying to 1 gate expand into chargelot/templar but it seems like I just can't get enough units early on to hold early aggression. Any help would be really appreciated! Thanks for reading! These are what I was doing in Gold leauge. What I changed about it are reactions to different scouts, personaly I've always 9 pylon scouted. On ladder Its almost necissary. Against zerg what I look for is pool/gas times. If I see them hatch first (my pylon and forge are generaly already out by the time I get there) I go nexus next, then gate and cannon. Also I almost always throw a pylon and cannon down behind their natural min-line. Either it forces them to pull drones and I cancel right before it dies, Or it makes it up and it shuts down that expo, either way I win. If i see gas & pool before hatch you want to be a bit more defensive and put up atleast one cannon and gate (get that partial wall off) and take the closest watch tower to them. If they come out with the roach all in, and your warpgate isn't up throw down 3 or so more cannons as soon as you see them moving out, They'll get up before they get there and you will be safe. If its speed ling, Your early zelot(s) and 1 or 2 cannons (they won't be up until after they get there, but if they see them building and run you can always cancel). Against Terran I look for gas times. I always go 1 gate expo, however if I see no gas I do a parting style 7+ or so warpgate 8 minute heavy heavy push. Either they are going to hit you (always grab that watch tower) or their no gas FE. 9 times out of 10 you are going to straight win with this push. If they get 2 gas always get a robo out. That obs has saved my butt many times. ALWAYS check their natural though. gas doesn't always mean 1 1 1 they might be doing some other tech based FE and you want to check and see how much time you have by when that expo comes up. My PvP is my best win rate, but probably my least refined matchup. Lately I have been going 3 gate robo, where I build Zelot/Sentry, and 2 immortals while I'm building my bay (2nd immortal popping out right as the bay is finishing) then pushing out with my first colosi (no range) if they expo'd or 2nd colosi if they didn't, and expoing behind me. What I have been having trouble with lately though is immortal drops. I haven't checked the last replay that this happened to me though, but it looks like he did the same thing as me, but also got a prism, and dropped his immortals and expanded, with his colosi back to defend. It worked quite well. TLDR: Always scout and know what you are looking for, have 2 builds for every matchup. | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
On May 31 2012 03:10 DW-Unrec wrote: Hi I need some help. I'm losing pretty much every PvT game I open 1 gate FE. They do 1/1/1 builds, they do pushes before my colossus is out. Can someone provide me a replay where protoss opens 1 gate FE then builds another 2 gates + robo and win? Masters league. here is how I stop a 1-1-1 (vs a top 8 master terran). He went for quick banshees > stim marine/tank/medivac. http://drop.sc/188640 I open with a ST_parting FE or nexus first, IMO you need a greedy nexus to stop 1-1-1s efficiently From there it's: -robo asap. 2 obs > immortals, keep 1 obs at home and always keep 3 stalkers in your main mineral line early on vs 1 base terran builds (at this point your obs is not to his base, so for all you know it could be proxy hellion drops) -3 additional gates. With a Parting FE or nexus first you can throw up 2 more eventually for a total of 6 gates. Meanwhile I usually grab just 1 gas at my nat once I'm saturated (2nd later if going colossus) -Once you're scouting with your obs, do you see... a) 2+(1 researching stim/combat) barracks + fact + medivacs? get colossus asap, stimmed marines will reck anything else. He may push out before your Colossus is out, so you need to have a few FFs or be out on the map to delay him a little bit, but don't be too aggressive as he will have stim so stay near ramps etc. b) standard tech lab starport + siege tanks + marines? don't go colossus just yet, this 1-1-1 can hit very quickly. he will not have stim/medivacs, so just power up off of 5-6 gateways and flank his tanks with a few zealots + target with immortals. If he does not push out quickly, you can go colossus with your econ. c) double starport tech lab. This is usually delayed a bit, so usually I get my 4th gas and go colossus to mop up his ground army, and a single Stargate for 2-3 phoenix to clean up his banshees afterwards. If you don't do this, you risk losing all of your stalkers and then losing to mass banshees. | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2571 Posts
I feel like 1 gate expands are better for doing faster gateway attacks but I feel like teching to blink or anything robo takes too long and most zergs have a crazy supply lead on me with a ton of roaches. | ||
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ishida66
Japan74 Posts
So far I've found: -Mass air (voids + carriers) deals with it but I didn't find any good transition into it other than going full skytoss+turtle (which is fun but doesn't seems reliable later on). When should I start transitioning into air? (using more "standard" builds) -Archon toilet. Feels a bit gimmicky, requires tons of tech and I usually get killed before I have my mothership/a reasonable archon number up. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On May 31 2012 13:32 AirbladeOrange wrote: I like to 1 gate expand rather than forge fast expanding. What are some of the not 100% obvious pros and cons of doing a 1 gate expand? And what are good ways to respond to different kinds zerg play in terms of what a 1 gate expo is good and bad at? I feel like 1 gate expands are better for doing faster gateway attacks but I feel like teching to blink or anything robo takes too long and most zergs have a crazy supply lead on me with a ton of roaches. There are a LOT of intricacies. I personally do 1 gate - nexus no cyber core a lot. The best not 100% benefit to this build is being able to pull it off vs a random player, scout and then upon seeing they are Zerg you are actually not behind in any way and you completely understand where to go from there. Early pools are annoying, other than that very safe opening. Anything more than a 7 pool is a joke to stop as well if you respond well too. The biggest thing about the 1 gate FE is that its very very hard to pull off well unless you are very very good at scouting and reading your opponent. If you want more specific help post a replay especially if you seem to lose in the early game which could be due to control or a misread. On May 31 2012 14:19 ishida66 wrote: In PvZ whats a good composition that fend off broodlords decently? forward blink stalkers + collosi usually ends up not being cost efficient. So far I've found: -Mass air (voids + carriers) deals with it but I didn't find any good transition into it other than going full skytoss+turtle (which is fun but doesn't seems reliable later on). When should I start transitioning into air? (using more "standard" builds) -Archon toilet. Feels a bit gimmicky, requires tons of tech and I usually get killed before I have my mothership/a reasonable archon number up. Other than trying to do the mothership or many many carrier void ray thing all you can do is drop and drop some more and abuse the immobility of broodlords. If you can abuse broodlord immobility long enough to get a good econ or a really strong air/mothership-archon force up then you are set. Watch Ace vs BboongBboong if you can from the GSL for an idea of how it works. Its really hard to pull off though. What I do is remember that for every poke and attack I do with my main army, I need to have a drop or zealots somewhere else. For every zealot drop/harass I need to have another. Its the best way to ensure even an ok or bad trade for you at the front can turn into a) time to rebuild b) cost effective in some way. | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On May 31 2012 13:32 AirbladeOrange wrote: I like to 1 gate expand rather than forge fast expanding. What are some of the not 100% obvious pros and cons of doing a 1 gate expand? And what are good ways to respond to different kinds zerg play in terms of what a 1 gate expo is good and bad at? I feel like 1 gate expands are better for doing faster gateway attacks but I feel like teching to blink or anything robo takes too long and most zergs have a crazy supply lead on me with a ton of roaches. the main reason is early speed builds. speed lings can shut down a 1gate expo for SO long, just dancing in, picking off a probe, forcing FF's etc. I used to gate expand PvZ too, then i played some GM zergs on KR, and when they delayed my expand with speedlings for 1-2mins and just had a huge macro lead, i went back to the FFE build | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
On May 31 2012 07:47 Ry-Masta-T wrote: These days, with everyone going for economic openers, failed early aggression generally puts you significantly behind. Reaper can be strong if they open nexus -> forge, depending on the map. Cloak banshee can be strong too, but I don't think that's what you meant by early game pressure. 2 rax is strong though, especially on maps like Tal Darim and Metalopolis. I wouldnt rule that out. On May 31 2012 07:43 whistle wrote: 1 rax concussive shell marauder gets you a relatively quick expansion so you aren't too far behind if you fail to do damage, and if your micro is good it's pretty hard to trade poorly. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303159. You can also proxy a naked rax with this (think same timing as the 2nd rax in a traditional 2 rax) but obviously that's a larger commitment - I'm not sure about whether the timings work out so that you can do this reactively to very greedy builds, but I think it is Thanks a lot. | ||
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