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On December 08 2011 01:56 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 01:34 QTIP. wrote:On December 08 2011 01:24 eugalp wrote:On December 08 2011 00:58 NrGmonk wrote:
Kiwikaki actually tried this exact response versus Puma twice in some MLG and lost both times. Since then no one has tried this. To be fair, Puma also beat MC who was doing 1 gate expo. Can't really make any conclusions from either case. MC had him beat. He got a little too greedy by teching quickly, and his charge timing was not ideal. However, MC could have done some things differently to win that game. He held the first push and was in a good position. Maybe. On the other hand, look at what MC did later in that series. Game 2, he picked Terminus to eliminate even the possibility of a 111. Game 3 on Metal, he did some weird stargate blink play and went for a base race. It is obvious that for whatever reason, he wasn't comfortable in his ability to hold 111 with the build he tried in game 1.
Most would agree that though the 111 is insanely powerful, MC was in a good position to win both the first and third games. (See Thorzain's comments about how MC could have won)
How do you know why he picked Terminus? You're assuming way too much.
In game 1 - after crushing his initial attack, he is way ahead. He SHOULD win that game. He engaged before Charge finished, and got his Zealots stuck behind his immortals. It's very unlike MC to make such micro mistakes, but the 111 is truly unforgiving, and there is no room for such errors.
In game 3 - MC did do a weird build, but its a counter that I have seen work at times. Phoenix DT, especially with the sniping of a Raven (which he did do once) can defeat the 111 though its hard to predict what will happen.
The build that he uses - 1 Gate FE into 3/4 Gate Robo is actually very capable of holding a 111, and even a 2-Rax (most of the time) with good Micro and patience.
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Question: Has PvP evolved (with the help of patches) to the point where relatively fast expands (3-gate pressure into expo/immortal expand) are actually safe?
Background: Lately, I've run into a few toss calling me a noob for 1-basing in PvP. It doesn't bother me--it fascinates me as this MU was founded on 1 base play. I'm only diamond but in climbing the ranks, I played a lot of macro PvP as platinum toss often expanded earlier than the pros used to (before pylon nerf and ramp vision nerf). Yet when I got to diamond (again, pre 1.3), I found the expos harder to hold.
I see pros and streamers like Axslav expanding more often and RSVP commenting on countering such expands or expanding in reaction. Yet it still seems unsafe to me...like it requires a gentleman's agreement: I see you expanding early so I will too.
I open phoenix in PvP and I am able to break FEs at least 3 out of every 4 times I encounter them with phoenix/immortal/zealot and sniping sentries. I love macro games, but I also like punishing toss who seem to feel that they have license to expand without a good sense of what I am doing.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 08 2011 07:01 skatbone wrote:
Question: Has PvP evolved (with the help of patches) to the point where relatively fast expands (3-gate pressure into expo/immortal expand) are actually safe?
Background: Lately, I've run into a few toss calling me a noob for 1-basing in PvP. It doesn't bother me--it fascinates me as this MU was founded on 1 base play. I'm only diamond but in climbing the ranks, I played a lot of macro PvP as platinum toss often expanded earlier than the pros used to (before pylon nerf and ramp vision nerf). Yet when I got to diamond (again, pre 1.3), I found the expos harder to hold.
I see pros and streamers like Axslav expanding more often and RSVP commenting on countering such expands or expanding in reaction. Yet it still seems unsafe to me...like it requires a gentleman's agreement: I see you expanding early so I will too.
I open phoenix in PvP and I am able to break FEs at least 3 out of every 4 times I encounter them with phoenix/immortal/zealot and sniping sentries. I love macro games, but I also like punishing toss who seem to feel that they have license to expand without a good sense of what I am doing.
I always open robo-blink, and i expand when my obs sees 1) a nexus less than halfway done, 2) 1base colossus (far away, to get ready for a potential base trade) 3) mirror builds.
If i see phoenixes i wait to see his move: if he gets lots of gates i stay up my ramp and defend the incoming push, if he cuts phoenixes and gets a robo i expo and fast-tech to charge (not sure if this is how you counter immortal-phoenix timings, but on paper it makes the most sense), if he expands i do so as well and go chargelot/archon in the midgame.
With robo-blink i have always won when my obs gets there and i see a nexus already finished; in that situations i allin with a couple of immortals the moment my blink finishes. I am not sure if it works at higher levels, but up to diamond/low master's it's fine.
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Just to make it clear, I wasn't saying that 1 gate FE into robo is incapable of holding 111. With any build you can lose to any other build (within reason, of course). I'm sure that Kiwikaki played dozens of PvTs with his build before using it in MLG.
Where can I find Thorzain's comments?
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On December 08 2011 07:09 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:01 skatbone wrote:
Question: Has PvP evolved (with the help of patches) to the point where relatively fast expands (3-gate pressure into expo/immortal expand) are actually safe?
Background: Lately, I've run into a few toss calling me a noob for 1-basing in PvP. It doesn't bother me--it fascinates me as this MU was founded on 1 base play. I'm only diamond but in climbing the ranks, I played a lot of macro PvP as platinum toss often expanded earlier than the pros used to (before pylon nerf and ramp vision nerf). Yet when I got to diamond (again, pre 1.3), I found the expos harder to hold.
I see pros and streamers like Axslav expanding more often and RSVP commenting on countering such expands or expanding in reaction. Yet it still seems unsafe to me...like it requires a gentleman's agreement: I see you expanding early so I will too.
I open phoenix in PvP and I am able to break FEs at least 3 out of every 4 times I encounter them with phoenix/immortal/zealot and sniping sentries. I love macro games, but I also like punishing toss who seem to feel that they have license to expand without a good sense of what I am doing. I always open robo-blink, and i expand when my obs sees 1) a nexus less than halfway done, 2) 1base colossus (far away, to get ready for a potential base trade) 3) mirror builds. If i see phoenixes i wait to see his move: if he gets lots of gates i stay up my ramp and defend the incoming push, if he cuts phoenixes and gets a robo i expo and fast-tech to charge (not sure if this is how you counter immortal-phoenix timings, but on paper it makes the most sense), if he expands i do so as well and go chargelot/archon in the midgame. With robo-blink i have always won when my obs gets there and i see a nexus already finished; in that situations i allin with a couple of immortals the moment my blink finishes. I am not sure if it works at higher levels, but up to diamond/low master's it's fine.
Nice. Thanks for sharing your thinking/scouting process. I love the level of detail. In watching replays I've noticed a lot of blind expands by the toss. They will scout my unit comp so they get some information. But they often drop the nexus before scouting my tech. I suppose they could cancel it if they see something irksome.
In your case, you seem to be getting a good read on your opponent and basing the decision to expand off of him. This makes sense to me.
Do you get a second obs?
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 08 2011 07:20 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:09 Teoita wrote:On December 08 2011 07:01 skatbone wrote:
Question: Has PvP evolved (with the help of patches) to the point where relatively fast expands (3-gate pressure into expo/immortal expand) are actually safe?
Background: Lately, I've run into a few toss calling me a noob for 1-basing in PvP. It doesn't bother me--it fascinates me as this MU was founded on 1 base play. I'm only diamond but in climbing the ranks, I played a lot of macro PvP as platinum toss often expanded earlier than the pros used to (before pylon nerf and ramp vision nerf). Yet when I got to diamond (again, pre 1.3), I found the expos harder to hold.
I see pros and streamers like Axslav expanding more often and RSVP commenting on countering such expands or expanding in reaction. Yet it still seems unsafe to me...like it requires a gentleman's agreement: I see you expanding early so I will too.
I open phoenix in PvP and I am able to break FEs at least 3 out of every 4 times I encounter them with phoenix/immortal/zealot and sniping sentries. I love macro games, but I also like punishing toss who seem to feel that they have license to expand without a good sense of what I am doing. I always open robo-blink, and i expand when my obs sees 1) a nexus less than halfway done, 2) 1base colossus (far away, to get ready for a potential base trade) 3) mirror builds. If i see phoenixes i wait to see his move: if he gets lots of gates i stay up my ramp and defend the incoming push, if he cuts phoenixes and gets a robo i expo and fast-tech to charge (not sure if this is how you counter immortal-phoenix timings, but on paper it makes the most sense), if he expands i do so as well and go chargelot/archon in the midgame. With robo-blink i have always won when my obs gets there and i see a nexus already finished; in that situations i allin with a couple of immortals the moment my blink finishes. I am not sure if it works at higher levels, but up to diamond/low master's it's fine. Nice. Thanks for sharing your thinking/scouting process. I love the level of detail. In watching replays I've noticed a lot of blind expands by the toss. They will scout my unit comp so they get some information. But they often drop the nexus before scouting my tech. I suppose they could cancel it if they see something irksome. In your case, you seem to be getting a good read on your opponent and basing the decision to expand off of him. This makes sense to me. Do you get a second obs?
I wall-off at my ramp and have a zealot on hold position so no dt's can sneak through, which makes the second obs not necessary; it's more to defend any kind of zealot-archon bust than to defend 4gate, sincet i figure it works really well when archons can't make it through the gap, and only one zealot can.
For more insight into robo-blink stuff (and pvp in general i guess) check out nrgmonk's thread, it's really amazing to understand midgame pvp.
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whats the proper way to stop a 6 pool all in on a map like xelnaga?
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When I play vs Zerg, I have no clue when to take my third. It always seems like one of a few things happens when I attempt to expand.
1. They max on roach hydra and just crush me, even if I hold the attack and secure the third the zerg just remaxes and kills me on attempt 2-4
2. Ling/Muta and I just lose the third straight up
There are others but these are the most common and frustrating ways. I've been attempting to experiment with faster thirds, around 9 minutes and everytime I do I just die. Must I really rely on timing attacks and cheese vs Zerg? Instead of a macro style?
I am a top 25 Masters Protoss for reference and if you want some replays I would be happy to furnish them.
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On December 08 2011 07:31 ProxiEchoes wrote:
whats the proper way to stop a 6 pool all in on a map like xelnaga?
What opening are you going for? If you are Forge expandind you will have to get a cannon in your main mineral line. If you are doing the normal gate into tech you should be able to wall off with either another gate or a forge at the other corner at the ramp and then placing another structure in between such as a cannon (forge) or pylon (second gate). If you have a cannon you are now safe. If you on the other hand got a second gate you will need to rally your zealots inside of the wall and just before it breaks pull some probes, you sohuld have 2-3 zealots and around 5 probes when this happens and you can take control of your ramp again.
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saw white ra get armour before attack upgrade in pvt. anyone know why. I always assumed attack upgrades were always better?
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On December 08 2011 10:19 ThePianoDentist wrote:
saw white ra get armour before attack upgrade in pvt. anyone know why. I always assumed attack upgrades were always better?
Armor upgrades are better when going zealot heavy (which white-ra uses a lot).
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Armour upgrade drastically lowers damage of the highest-DPS terran unit (marine).
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On December 08 2011 10:31 Darkness2k11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 10:19 ThePianoDentist wrote:
saw white ra get armour before attack upgrade in pvt. anyone know why. I always assumed attack upgrades were always better? Armor upgrades are better when going zealot heavy (which white-ra uses a lot).
I agree with the above, and also if you are facing a lot of marines, armor reduces a lot of their DPS. (especially on zealots, which have a high life total compared to shields)
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On December 08 2011 10:33 Tatsumaki wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 10:31 Darkness2k11 wrote:On December 08 2011 10:19 ThePianoDentist wrote:
saw white ra get armour before attack upgrade in pvt. anyone know why. I always assumed attack upgrades were always better? Armor upgrades are better when going zealot heavy (which white-ra uses a lot). I agree with the above, and also if you are facing a lot of marines, armor reduces a lot of their DPS. (especially on zealots, which have a high life total compared to shields)
guardian shield + armor reduces marine DPS by A TON. a lot of other players like Huk and Hero favor attack cuz they use stalkers more, but white-ra loves zealots. zealots with armor can tank so much more damage from marauders and marines
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Hey, I was playing PVZ on shakuras plateu and went ffe. The zerg made a hatchery blocking my wall off to the natural. I used the single cannon already there + 1 zealot to kill it, but as soon as I did zerglings streamed in? What do I do in this situation.
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I'm really scared to do anything in pvz now. It's definately my worst matchup. I usually do a standard ffe and will lose to 1 of the following
1. proxy hatch cheese
2. roach allin with like 20 roaches
3. Ling hydra drops
4. mass roach hydra
I'm rank 4 diamond and am really struggling vs zerg. I don't know how to scout after my initial probe scout and before I get tech. I usually put down 4 cannons now just to be safe but I feel like I cant do anything vs zerg but turtle and die on 2 bases. Now to get wins I am just doing a 7 gate allin which has like a 50% win ratio depending on if the zerg makes 20,000 drones or 10,000 drones  ((((((((((((((((((((((((
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On December 08 2011 08:29 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:31 ProxiEchoes wrote:
whats the proper way to stop a 6 pool all in on a map like xelnaga? What opening are you going for? If you are Forge expandind you will have to get a cannon in your main mineral line. If you are doing the normal gate into tech you should be able to wall off with either another gate or a forge at the other corner at the ramp and then placing another structure in between such as a cannon (forge) or pylon (second gate). If you have a cannon you are now safe. If you on the other hand got a second gate you will need to rally your zealots inside of the wall and just before it breaks pull some probes, you sohuld have 2-3 zealots and around 5 probes when this happens and you can take control of your ramp again.
Is this actaully the correct way to respond if going gate first?
I'm a dia level toss, and I have never actually figured out how to defend 6 pool when going gate first. Forge first is easy.
Gate first the lings always kill my first gate before I can get a cannon up. Anyone got a good guide or vod to show me to how defend?
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On December 08 2011 17:06 LeakyBucket wrote:
Hey, I was playing PVZ on shakuras plateu and went ffe. The zerg made a hatchery blocking my wall off to the natural. I used the single cannon already there + 1 zealot to kill it, but as soon as I did zerglings streamed in? What do I do in this situation.
You want a second wall behind the hatchery. Make the buildings some seconds before the hatchery dies so you can cancel them also. A second cannon is also good to have if he tries to make units with it.
On December 08 2011 17:09 Ghost131 wrote:I'm really scared to do anything in pvz now. It's definately my worst matchup. I usually do a standard ffe and will lose to 1 of the following 1. proxy hatch cheese 2. roach allin with like 20 roaches 3. Ling hydra drops 4. mass roach hydra I'm rank 4 diamond and am really struggling vs zerg. I don't know how to scout after my initial probe scout and before I get tech. I usually put down 4 cannons now just to be safe but I feel like I cant do anything vs zerg but turtle and die on 2 bases. Now to get wins I am just doing a 7 gate allin which has like a 50% win ratio depending on if the zerg makes 20,000 drones or 10,000 drones ((((((((((((((((((((((((
You have to scout. If you see no expansion at his natural it's a cheese and I don't think it matters much if he has proxy hatch or not, it will depend on how good your wall is and how many cannons you have. As for the roach all in that sounds like it's coming pretty late compared to a roach ling all in. This means you can scout and see no third as well as suiciding the probe into his main and maybe see the roaches. Also since he attacks so late you will have warp gates up by then most likely, shouldn't be that hard to hold. As for ling hydra that is a kind of 2 base play, if you don't see a third you should just turtle up and try to scout him with observers or phoenixes. Either way you should have colossus and/or a lot of gateway units out in time. Against mass roach hydra just get AoE and forcefields.
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On December 09 2011 01:30 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 08:29 Latedi wrote:On December 08 2011 07:31 ProxiEchoes wrote:
whats the proper way to stop a 6 pool all in on a map like xelnaga? What opening are you going for? If you are Forge expandind you will have to get a cannon in your main mineral line. If you are doing the normal gate into tech you should be able to wall off with either another gate or a forge at the other corner at the ramp and then placing another structure in between such as a cannon (forge) or pylon (second gate). If you have a cannon you are now safe. If you on the other hand got a second gate you will need to rally your zealots inside of the wall and just before it breaks pull some probes, you sohuld have 2-3 zealots and around 5 probes when this happens and you can take control of your ramp again. Is this actaully the correct way to respond if going gate first? I'm a dia level toss, and I have never actually figured out how to defend 6 pool when going gate first. Forge first is easy. Gate first the lings always kill my first gate before I can get a cannon up. Anyone got a good guide or vod to show me to how defend?
if u go gate first chrono out your first zeal, with eithier two gateways or one gateway cyber at top of ramp, before lings hit ur base, pull some probbes and make a pylongto block the gap the zealot will normally block, then make sure zeal pops inside ur base run round to where pylon is building cancel and enage if the zerg try runing through with zeal and probes. while chrno out another zeal and if gone 2 gateways chrono out zeals of both. make sure you have more then one pylon keepingeverything together as if they do manage to get in.. one pylon will go down very quick and you have lost.
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On December 09 2011 01:30 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 08:29 Latedi wrote:On December 08 2011 07:31 ProxiEchoes wrote:
whats the proper way to stop a 6 pool all in on a map like xelnaga? What opening are you going for? If you are Forge expandind you will have to get a cannon in your main mineral line. If you are doing the normal gate into tech you should be able to wall off with either another gate or a forge at the other corner at the ramp and then placing another structure in between such as a cannon (forge) or pylon (second gate). If you have a cannon you are now safe. If you on the other hand got a second gate you will need to rally your zealots inside of the wall and just before it breaks pull some probes, you sohuld have 2-3 zealots and around 5 probes when this happens and you can take control of your ramp again. Is this actaully the correct way to respond if going gate first? I'm a dia level toss, and I have never actually figured out how to defend 6 pool when going gate first. Forge first is easy. Gate first the lings always kill my first gate before I can get a cannon up. Anyone got a good guide or vod to show me to how defend?
Your build should look something like
9 pylon
12-13 gate
15 gas
17 cyber (if you get this far)
then when you scout the 6pool, cancel the cyber and even the gas if you are fast enough, don't mine any gas until you have defended. Cut probes and throw down another gateway asap.
Ignore the "-" marks.
--------------pp
--------------pp
----------------------------ggg
-------------------------ppggg
-------------------------ppggg
-----------------------ggg------\
-----------------------ggg-------\
-----------------------ggg
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Behold, your sexy ramp on xel naga caverns. The pylon at the upper left is the standard 9 pylon, and one of the gates is your 12-13 one. Then you procceed to make another oneat the other corner and fill the small gap with a pylon. Chronoboost as many zealots as you can inside the wall before it breaks. Don't let him break both gateways either, raze it and push out if he tries to time them to break down simultaneously. The second gate can also be replaced by a forge and the blocking pylon with a cannon.
Edit: shit my spaces disappeared, will try to fix this.
Edit 2: Like a baws.
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EPT
