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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On December 07 2011 03:24 SkyBlaze wrote:
I have a question if anyone can answer
1 gate expand vs T
I 1 gate expand having 1 zealot and 2 stalkers on 30 food, I check for any aggro. I see it, threw down 2gate then gas and pylon in that order, but my main problem is that the nexus is almost done and he's doing a marauder push with shell. should I either do.
A) cancel the nexus and go up ramp
B) leave the nexus and ran down the ramp after warp-gate is done with the all 3 (hopefully the nexus did not die)
C) ran down ramp with the zealot and 3 stalkers with probes ( warp gate is done but the other gates are not)
to tell the truth I'm leaning on "C"
[edit]
I can post a replay but don't really think it would be right due to I usually win the game afterwards and I would feel like I was showing off. (due to Craetor.Primes build order for double forge)
A concussive shell rush comes with 1 marine and 2 marauders, you should be able to hold it with the zealot stalker stalker if you micro it decently. Bring probes if you must but a cancel is a waste.
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I'm in master's and I have a ~10% winrate vs zerg. I literally have no clue what to do against them. I normally learn from watching GSL, but theres a huge difference between GSL and NA ladder. In GSL, I often see protoss taking a extremely fast third after a forge FE off of like an army of ~20 units. If you attempt that on NA ladder, the zerg will just pump a ton of roaches and roll you over.
I feel like forge FE puts me behind, because the zerg just gets to drone to 80 for free and then pump roaches and a-move and roll you over.
I can't do any time of 1 base cheese, because I'm in amsters and most zergs my level are hardwired to prepare spores/spines at the correct timings for 4 gate/starget/dt play.
The only time I win, is during the short timing window where I have colossus and they do not have corrupters yet. Otherwise, it seems as though roaches are way way to cost effective and easy to amass and roll my army over with.
It seems extremely difficult to take a third no matter what you do, due to the fact that zergs can instantly amass a huge army of roaches and kill you.
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void rays force the zerg to spend either their gas on hydralisks or drones on spore crawlers to defend. either way, the zerg needs to cut into his roach production to be able to effectively deal with it. a single void ray can also help you hold off roach aggression, allowing you to set up a third base.
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On December 07 2011 06:38 WesleyLok wrote:
I'm in master's and I have a ~10% winrate vs zerg. I literally have no clue what to do against them. I normally learn from watching GSL, but theres a huge difference between GSL and NA ladder. In GSL, I often see protoss taking a extremely fast third after a forge FE off of like an army of ~20 units. If you attempt that on NA ladder, the zerg will just pump a ton of roaches and roll you over.
I feel like forge FE puts me behind, because the zerg just gets to drone to 80 for free and then pump roaches and a-move and roll you over.
I can't do any time of 1 base cheese, because I'm in amsters and most zergs my level are hardwired to prepare spores/spines at the correct timings for 4 gate/starget/dt play.
The only time I win, is during the short timing window where I have colossus and they do not have corrupters yet. Otherwise, it seems as though roaches are way way to cost effective and easy to amass and roll my army over with.
It seems extremely difficult to take a third no matter what you do, due to the fact that zergs can instantly amass a huge army of roaches and kill you.
Play like HerO does o/
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970
Naniwa is kind of similar too
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On December 07 2011 06:45 megapants wrote:
void rays force the zerg to spend either their gas on hydralisks or drones on spore crawlers to defend. either way, the zerg needs to cut into his roach production to be able to effectively deal with it. a single void ray can also help you hold off roach aggression, allowing you to set up a third base.
A single Void Ray doesn't mean an easy third base at all. Pressure which gives Map Control, denial of Xel'naga towers, or pressure on a Zerg's third are the best ways to take an early third. This can be accomplished by a Void Ray (or multiple) followed up with Phoenixes, or +1 Zealot Timing, DT's (not recommended), or other timings.
Just getting out a single void ray expecting to hold Speedling/Roach aggression on your third is silly. You need to make something happen with your units, or scout something (Infestor / Ling, 2-3 Base Muta) before you make a move on your third base. If you watch HerO, he always takes his third while pressuring the Zerg simultaneously, or doing so much damage that his third will be uncontested.
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On December 07 2011 07:12 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 06:45 megapants wrote:
void rays force the zerg to spend either their gas on hydralisks or drones on spore crawlers to defend. either way, the zerg needs to cut into his roach production to be able to effectively deal with it. a single void ray can also help you hold off roach aggression, allowing you to set up a third base. A single Void Ray doesn't mean an easy third base at all. Pressure which gives Map Control, denial of Xel'naga towers, or pressure on a Zerg's third are the best ways to take an early third. This can be accomplished by a Void Ray (or multiple) followed up with Phoenixes, or +1 Zealot Timing, DT's (not recommended), or other timings. Just getting out a single void ray expecting to hold Speedling/Roach aggression on your third is silly. You need to make something happen with your units, or scout something (Infestor / Ling, 2-3 Base Muta) before you make a move on your third base. If you watch HerO, he always takes his third while pressuring the Zerg simultaneously, or doing so much damage that his third will be uncontested.
the point about owning a zel naga tower is actually SUPER SUPER important.
a zerg feels comfortable to be greedy or offensive based off map control. the act of taking map control will make a zerg play more balanced (usually...) this is the problem tho. a good zerg reacts dif then a bad zerg. and often a bad zerg as question was asked will make units and roll you. its safer for a zerg currently to drone vs a protoss he has no scouting on but even in the top masters players are bad and attempt to just cheese to win which is very easy and hard to predict. ignoring this horrible player who exists far too much at high levels, to take a 3rd as protoss you almost have to be risky in pvz. you must feign pressure while holding a tower and deny as much scouting as possible. a zerg is less likely to attack something he doesnt know about which should be the TRUE use of the void ray. i still believe turtle toss is the best method but you must master the art of fake pressure and map control or you will never beat zergs
the other method you can do to beat them is simple. void ray sentry warp prism dt all in. doing these 3 is totally possible and its totally frustrating when the zergs only move is counterattacking and there are dts killing his army while you ff a ramp and kill his base.
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Bronze Level Player here. I really enjoy the versatility of having a single Gateway, Stargate, and Robotics Facility before I expand. I feel like it gives me plenty of harass options (Warp Prism, Void Ray, Phoenix), scouting information (Phoenix, Observer), makes me safer versus builds like DTs or Cloak Banshees, and when I expand I can emphasize the Tech Path that will work the best based on my scouting (gateway, air, or robo). Against Zerg, I can get the quick Void Ray to give me some map control and the ability to make Immortals quickly or tech to Colossus based on what I see.
I don't see this build used much on higher levels so I suspect that there is a serious flaw with it. Could someone explain to me the inherit flaws with such a build?
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Rumblen, the flaw with that build is that you have no army backbone. Sure you'll have all the scouting info you need, but if your opponent decides to attack you'll have next to nothing to defend with. Also your harass options could not include the warp prism, b/c with one gate you won't have enough units to harrass with. Generally, with one base you can support 3 gates and 1 tech path. This is efficient because you get the army you NEED to defend/attack, as well as your desired tech path. You wont be able to afford stargate robo units off one base. The point of an expansion is to get the resources you need to support more tech paths. Also, your expansion will be heavily delayed if you go through all the tech paths. Basically, the earlier you take your expansion, the more efficiently you can tech to counter your opponent.
You want to react to your opponent, as in you want to throw down your tech in order to best counter your opponent. If a terran pushes you with a large ground force, and you went robo stargate, your stargate will be useless. You could have used the resources for the stargate for units. On the other hand, if you scout terran going 1-1-1, and you only went robo, then you can throw down a stargate and make it worth while.
A little nitpicky thing, gateway isnt considered tech. You will always need gateways no matter what, you don't really "choose" gateways as your tech path.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 07 2011 14:43 guanzo wrote:
Rumblen, the flaw with that build is that you have no army backbone. Sure you'll have all the scouting info you need, but if your opponent decides to attack you'll have next to nothing to defend with. Also your harass options could not include the warp prism, b/c with one gate you won't have enough units to harrass with. Generally, with one base you can support 3 gates and 1 tech path. This is efficient because you get the army you NEED to defend/attack, as well as your desired tech path.
You want to react to your opponent, as in you want to throw down your tech in order to best counter your opponent. If your opponent pushes you with a large ground force, and you went robo stargate, your stargate will be useless. You could have used the resources for the stargate for units. On the other hand, if you scout terran going 1-1-1, and you only went robo, then you can throw down a stargate and make it worth while.
A little nitpicky thing, gateway isnt considered tech. You will always need gateways no matter what, you don't really "choose" gateways as your tech path.
This is good except you don't want to put down a reactive stargate versus 1-1-1.
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In my experience ( high masters), ive defended the 1-1-1 pretty successfully with a reactive stargate. If i suspect 1-1-1 ill usually go 2 gate robo. My obs will scout the 1-1-1 and ill throw down a stargate, and 2 extra gates, no expansion. Also one thing to note is ill only have 4-5 guys in gas, the only gas units im making are phoenixes and immortals. I'll pump out phoenixes, which accomplish a plethora of things.
1. Stop banshee harrass, and possibly kill banshees and/or raven easily (+ dmg to light)
2. Very quick scouting
3. Snipe mules/workers on gas. (which are vital for the 1-1-1)
4. Delay the incoming push by constantly harassing the air units.
5. Lift the tanks (by far the most important use)
My unit composition when he pushes will be 2 sentries, mass zealots, a couple immortals, and 3-4 phoenixes. Ill guardian shield, and force field trap the marines so my zealots can go to town. At the same time my phoenixes will fly in and lift the tanks, completely negating them. My immortals will target fire any leftover tanks, and if there are no leftover tanks they have pretty high dps anyways. Notice i dont have much stalkers, if any. This will make the raven pretty much useless because PDD won't affect anything (and sometimes i can force PDD out when my phoenixes are harassing), and i dont really require an obs b/c phoenixes provide constant scouting.
Here's a replay that pretty much follows what i described above.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)tQronstopAbL_vs_(P)Guanzo/16337
If there's anything really flawed with this build please point it out. This build isn't perfect, but i've had the most success with this style.
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On December 07 2011 07:12 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 06:45 megapants wrote:
void rays force the zerg to spend either their gas on hydralisks or drones on spore crawlers to defend. either way, the zerg needs to cut into his roach production to be able to effectively deal with it. a single void ray can also help you hold off roach aggression, allowing you to set up a third base. A single Void Ray doesn't mean an easy third base at all. Pressure which gives Map Control, denial of Xel'naga towers, or pressure on a Zerg's third are the best ways to take an early third. This can be accomplished by a Void Ray (or multiple) followed up with Phoenixes, or +1 Zealot Timing, DT's (not recommended), or other timings. Just getting out a single void ray expecting to hold Speedling/Roach aggression on your third is silly. You need to make something happen with your units, or scout something (Infestor / Ling, 2-3 Base Muta) before you make a move on your third base. If you watch HerO, he always takes his third while pressuring the Zerg simultaneously, or doing so much damage that his third will be uncontested.
my apologies, i misspoke. i in no way meant to imply that it means an "easy third base." i meant that a single void ray supplements your main army, as it helps you fend off roach-ling timings. an army off of 3 gateways and a single void ray can be enough to push back aggressive zergs. if they wish to punish your expo, they will need a way to not lose a ton of units to your void ray + gateway army or they can try to deal damage elsewhere.
that's only if you actually see roachling aggression though. blindly going for one void ray is flexible enough in that timing, allowing you to adapt with it by either sending it to the zergs base or keeping it at home should the zerg decide to prevent you from leaving your natural with roach/speedling.
do you think that adding phoenixes are necessary when going stargate? what do phoenixes accomplish in the midgame that void rays by themselves do not? could those resources be allocated elsewhere to achieve a similar goal? i see players adding phoenixes after their void rays and i wonder why they don't just add more gateways or get a faster twilight council/robotics.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 07 2011 15:12 megapants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:12 QTIP. wrote:On December 07 2011 06:45 megapants wrote:
void rays force the zerg to spend either their gas on hydralisks or drones on spore crawlers to defend. either way, the zerg needs to cut into his roach production to be able to effectively deal with it. a single void ray can also help you hold off roach aggression, allowing you to set up a third base. A single Void Ray doesn't mean an easy third base at all. Pressure which gives Map Control, denial of Xel'naga towers, or pressure on a Zerg's third are the best ways to take an early third. This can be accomplished by a Void Ray (or multiple) followed up with Phoenixes, or +1 Zealot Timing, DT's (not recommended), or other timings. Just getting out a single void ray expecting to hold Speedling/Roach aggression on your third is silly. You need to make something happen with your units, or scout something (Infestor / Ling, 2-3 Base Muta) before you make a move on your third base. If you watch HerO, he always takes his third while pressuring the Zerg simultaneously, or doing so much damage that his third will be uncontested. my apologies, i misspoke. i in no way meant to imply that it means an "easy third base." i meant that a single void ray supplements your main army, as it helps you fend off roach-ling timings. an army off of 3 gateways and a single void ray can be enough to push back aggressive zergs. if they wish to punish your expo, they will need a way to not lose a ton of units to your void ray + gateway army or they can try to deal damage elsewhere. that's only if you actually see roachling aggression though. blindly going for one void ray is flexible enough in that timing, allowing you to adapt with it by either sending it to the zergs base or keeping it at home should the zerg decide to prevent you from leaving your natural with roach/speedling. do you think that adding phoenixes are necessary when going stargate? what do phoenixes accomplish in the midgame that void rays by themselves do not? could those resources be allocated elsewhere to achieve a similar goal? i see players adding phoenixes after their void rays and i wonder why they don't just add more gateways or get a faster twilight council/robotics.
Adding a few phoenix makes the air threat significantly most serious, because it allows your void ray to actually beat queens, which forces either spores or a bunch of extra queens, or more hydras or corrupters or something that zerg really doesn't want to make right then. If you just build A void ray, he'll make ONE extra queen and then just kill your 3rd. It also significantly increases your map control, and makes it easier to fly around the map picking off overlords.
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THOR RUSH? There has to be a proper way to defend a marine thor all in... right? I lost twice in a couple days and I just didn't know how to respond. What do yall do?
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On December 07 2011 14:09 rumblen wrote:
Bronze Level Player here. I really enjoy the versatility of having a single Gateway, Stargate, and Robotics Facility before I expand. I feel like it gives me plenty of harass options (Warp Prism, Void Ray, Phoenix), scouting information (Phoenix, Observer), makes me safer versus builds like DTs or Cloak Banshees, and when I expand I can emphasize the Tech Path that will work the best based on my scouting (gateway, air, or robo). Against Zerg, I can get the quick Void Ray to give me some map control and the ability to make Immortals quickly or tech to Colossus based on what I see.
I don't see this build used much on higher levels so I suspect that there is a serious flaw with it. Could someone explain to me the inherit flaws with such a build?
Your build is not very good with anything and you get tech you might not even need. The problem is your exapnsion will be late as you are teching, you will not have the option of going really aggressive as you only have one gateway and even if you do go immortal voidray zealot or something similar it is pretty much an all in.
On December 07 2011 15:36 DONTPANIC wrote:
THOR RUSH? There has to be a proper way to defend a marine thor all in... right? I lost twice in a couple days and I just didn't know how to respond. What do yall do?
Immortals, zealots, stalkers and a few sentries. Get as many as you can of these off of 2 bases with 4-5 gates and a robo. Use guardian shield to protect yourself from the DPS of the marines and try to take out the thor by focus firing it with stalkers and immortals while the zealots kill any repairing SCVs. Kill the marines if they are in front of the thor but be careful with your immortals so they dont die.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 07 2011 14:57 guanzo wrote:In my experience ( high masters), ive defended the 1-1-1 pretty successfully with a reactive stargate. If i suspect 1-1-1 ill usually go 2 gate robo. My obs will scout the 1-1-1 and ill throw down a stargate, and 2 extra gates, no expansion. Also one thing to note is ill only have 4-5 guys in gas, the only gas units im making are phoenixes and immortals. I'll pump out phoenixes, which accomplish a plethora of things. 1. Stop banshee harrass, and possibly kill banshees and/or raven easily (+ dmg to light) 2. Very quick scouting 3. Snipe mules/workers on gas. (which are vital for the 1-1-1) 4. Delay the incoming push by constantly harassing the air units. 5. Lift the tanks (by far the most important use) My unit composition when he pushes will be 2 sentries, mass zealots, a couple immortals, and 3-4 phoenixes. Ill guardian shield, and force field trap the marines so my zealots can go to town. At the same time my phoenixes will fly in and lift the tanks, completely negating them. My immortals will target fire any leftover tanks, and if there are no leftover tanks they have pretty high dps anyways. Notice i dont have much stalkers, if any. This will make the raven pretty much useless because PDD won't affect anything (and sometimes i can force PDD out when my phoenixes are harassing), and i dont really require an obs b/c phoenixes provide constant scouting. Here's a replay that pretty much follows what i described above. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)tQronstopAbL_vs_(P)Guanzo/16337If there's anything really flawed with this build please point it out. This build isn't perfect, but i've had the most success with this style.
There were a million things your opponent did wrong.
- The correct response versus 1 base immortal zealot phoenix is to camp on one base yourself. Marine/tank/banshee scales better than zealot/immortal/phenoix. Instead your opponent pushed very early.
- He invested in an eng bay/missile turret before the push.
- He attacked before his combat shields finished.
- He didn't pull scvs.
- His tanks didn't siege up.
- He didn't micro his tank
Kiwikaki actually tried this exact response versus Puma twice in some MLG and lost both times. Since then no one has tried this.
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On December 07 2011 15:12 megapants wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:12 QTIP. wrote:On December 07 2011 06:45 megapants wrote:
void rays force the zerg to spend either their gas on hydralisks or drones on spore crawlers to defend. either way, the zerg needs to cut into his roach production to be able to effectively deal with it. a single void ray can also help you hold off roach aggression, allowing you to set up a third base. A single Void Ray doesn't mean an easy third base at all. Pressure which gives Map Control, denial of Xel'naga towers, or pressure on a Zerg's third are the best ways to take an early third. This can be accomplished by a Void Ray (or multiple) followed up with Phoenixes, or +1 Zealot Timing, DT's (not recommended), or other timings. Just getting out a single void ray expecting to hold Speedling/Roach aggression on your third is silly. You need to make something happen with your units, or scout something (Infestor / Ling, 2-3 Base Muta) before you make a move on your third base. If you watch HerO, he always takes his third while pressuring the Zerg simultaneously, or doing so much damage that his third will be uncontested. my apologies, i misspoke. i in no way meant to imply that it means an "easy third base." i meant that a single void ray supplements your main army, as it helps you fend off roach-ling timings. an army off of 3 gateways and a single void ray can be enough to push back aggressive zergs. if they wish to punish your expo, they will need a way to not lose a ton of units to your void ray + gateway army or they can try to deal damage elsewhere. that's only if you actually see roachling aggression though. blindly going for one void ray is flexible enough in that timing, allowing you to adapt with it by either sending it to the zergs base or keeping it at home should the zerg decide to prevent you from leaving your natural with roach/speedling. do you think that adding phoenixes are necessary when going stargate? what do phoenixes accomplish in the midgame that void rays by themselves do not? could those resources be allocated elsewhere to achieve a similar goal? i see players adding phoenixes after their void rays and i wonder why they don't just add more gateways or get a faster twilight council/robotics.
Ah OK, yeah that explains it, I figure you meant something more.
I think that adding Phoenixes is almost always necessary. By adding Phoenixes to your compositions, you allow your VR's to destroy Queens, and you can deal with small #'s of Hydra's efficiently. If you can continue to do damage, you can even deter the Zerg from using Mutas on maps like Tal'Darim or Antiga. (Which is a huge + these days!)
Also, Phoenixes are fast enough to fly in and still do damage even if there are a few spores around. The same is not the case with the Void Ray. Assuming you are capable enough in keeping your Phoenix alive, it is also an excellent mid-late game scout to scout for additional bases etc.
You can also go for 3 Fast VR's and try to take out the Zerg's third with Brute force, but you are putting a lot more on the line. I think the Phoenix follow up is smart and has applications that last the entire game.
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On December 08 2011 00:58 NrGmonk wrote:
Kiwikaki actually tried this exact response versus Puma twice in some MLG and lost both times. Since then no one has tried this.
To be fair, Puma also beat MC who was doing 1 gate expo. Can't really make any conclusions from either case.
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On December 08 2011 01:24 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 00:58 NrGmonk wrote:
Kiwikaki actually tried this exact response versus Puma twice in some MLG and lost both times. Since then no one has tried this. To be fair, Puma also beat MC who was doing 1 gate expo. Can't really make any conclusions from either case.
MC had him beat. He got a little too greedy by teching quickly, and his charge timing was not ideal. However, MC could have done some things differently to win that game. He held the first push and was in a good position.
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On December 08 2011 01:34 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 01:24 eugalp wrote:On December 08 2011 00:58 NrGmonk wrote:
Kiwikaki actually tried this exact response versus Puma twice in some MLG and lost both times. Since then no one has tried this. To be fair, Puma also beat MC who was doing 1 gate expo. Can't really make any conclusions from either case. MC had him beat. He got a little too greedy by teching quickly, and his charge timing was not ideal. However, MC could have done some things differently to win that game. He held the first push and was in a good position.
Maybe. On the other hand, look at what MC did later in that series. Game 2, he picked Terminus to eliminate even the possibility of a 111. Game 3 on Metal, he did some weird stargate blink play and went for a base race. It is obvious that for whatever reason, he wasn't comfortable in his ability to hold 111 with the build he tried in game 1.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 01:56 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 01:34 QTIP. wrote:On December 08 2011 01:24 eugalp wrote:On December 08 2011 00:58 NrGmonk wrote:
Kiwikaki actually tried this exact response versus Puma twice in some MLG and lost both times. Since then no one has tried this. To be fair, Puma also beat MC who was doing 1 gate expo. Can't really make any conclusions from either case. MC had him beat. He got a little too greedy by teching quickly, and his charge timing was not ideal. However, MC could have done some things differently to win that game. He held the first push and was in a good position. Maybe. On the other hand, look at what MC did later in that series. Game 2, he picked Terminus to eliminate even the possibility of a 111. Game 3 on Metal, he did some weird stargate blink play and went for a base race. It is obvious that for whatever reason, he wasn't comfortable in his ability to hold 111 with the build he tried in game 1.
You can't really draw this conclusion. He's just mixing up his play. I would actually argue that he was very confident in his 1-1-1 defense. He had game 1 essentially won but threw it away.
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EPT
