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Okay im not gonna lie, i havent read all 9 pages.
However, i watched the 2 repalys which arent the hellion drop. And the Terrans are just awful. In the Xelnaga one, he makes a raven for literally no reason. It drains his resources hugely, delays his push and doesnt even have 100 energy by the engagement. If hedve pushed like 45 seconds earlier without the raven im pretty sure hedve won. If hedve brought scv im sure.
The other one was better but still the T was poor. He got caught with his tanks unsieged and had to panic siege. Didnt focus fire at all. Banshees and tanks shooting zealots etc.
While this guide looks good and as a T i hope it stops all the whining, ive yet to see a replay of you beating a decently executed one.
Again, sorry if this had been said.
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I am really surprised people don't like colossi against this. I am diamond but I've been stopping these with colo pretty regularly. You can definitely get 1 colossi out and 2nd one on the way. Since the tanks usually siege one jump away from your expo you can delay until second colo pops.
You put down the robo bay after 2nd gateway, about when your nexus finishes and your observer gets into their base. Obviously chronoboost the colos, and get a gas on your expansion. I usually go with a saturated main base and 3 gas 3-6 mineral workers on your natural.
It's basically the same composition - 2 sentries, a bunch of zealots, and just enough stalkers to get the air, but with a colossi instead of immortals. They slaughter marines/SCVs so fast that your zealots easily take care of tanks, you don't even need the immortals.
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I still don understand all the whining about it. People are complaining that they cant stop a 1 base all in, with an expo.
Its pretty much people complaining that they need to get good at scouting.
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On August 16 2011 04:24 Squigly wrote:
I still don understand all the whining about it. People are complaining that they cant stop a 1 base all in, with an expo.
Its pretty much people complaining that they need to get good at scouting.
dude, I 100% know its coming, and so do all other toss players.
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Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes.
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On August 16 2011 04:24 Squigly wrote:
I still don understand all the whining about it. People are complaining that they cant stop a 1 base all in, with an expo.
Its pretty much people complaining that they need to get good at scouting.
It's actually better if you expand since you get to use the extra income before the push comes. Plus, if you're telling us to not expand, you're telling us to blind 1 base allin every game.
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On August 16 2011 04:24 Squigly wrote:
I still don understand all the whining about it. People are complaining that they cant stop a 1 base all in, with an expo.
Its pretty much people complaining that they need to get good at scouting.
Why don't people read the op and realise that you must expo in order to hold the 1 base all in order to have enough units to stop the push. On 1 base, you can support 1 Robo and 3 Gates (barely), on 2 base you can support 1 Robo and 5 Gates. I can't believe people don't understand the basics of RTS, if 1 base could produce more units than 2 base then why the fuck do people expand?
In a PvP, if one player went 16 nexus into 7 gates, and one player went 4 gate, who would win if the 4gate guy attacked at 10 minutes? THE GUY THAT WENT 16 NEXUS.
The same comparison can be made here. Protoss needs that expansion to get enough units to hold, and an early nexus is the best method. Sure, a 3 gate expand loses miserably but we aren't talking about that build here.
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On August 16 2011 04:33 Squigly wrote:
Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes.
I was going to take your posts seriously, then I looked at some of your other threads. (A true Protoss hater)
I'll reply out of decency.
2 Observers is covered in the guide.
"This is completely stylistic, and others may prefer just a single observer. Two observers I find is simply safer. On maps/spawns with long distances, your observer may be getting to your opponents base when the banshee is halfway to yours. Also, during the critical engagement where the game will be decided, Terrans with Ravens may snipe your observer and cloaked banshees will end the game. A second observer can be useful."
Emphasis on the word "stylistic". If you feel comfortable with 1, get 1.
Cutting Probes is covered in the guide.
"Continue to make workers until the low 30’s, and throw up an additional 3 Gateways."
You mention not reading 9 pages of feedback, try reading the OP first.
Also you discredit me as playing against weak and terrible Terrans. From what I've seen from your post history, you've been quoted as saying you are in Diamond. All the Terrans in the replays are in Master League. If you would like to PM me for a match (QTIP.630) to blow me away with your perfectly executed 1-1-1, I would be happy to upload the replay Win / Loss.
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On August 16 2011 05:11 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 04:33 Squigly wrote:
Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes. I was going to take your posts seriously, then I looked at some of your other threads. (A true Protoss hater) I'll reply out of decency. 2 Observers is covered in the guide. "This is completely stylistic, and others may prefer just a single observer. Two observers I find is simply safer. On maps/spawns with long distances, your observer may be getting to your opponents base when the banshee is halfway to yours. Also, during the critical engagement where the game will be decided, Terrans with Ravens may snipe your observer and cloaked banshees will end the game. A second observer can be useful." Emphasis on the word "stylistic". If you feel comfortable with 1, get 1. Cutting Probes is covered in the guide."Continue to make workers until the low 30’s, and throw up an additional 3 Gateways." You mention not reading 9 pages of feedback, try reading the OP first. Also you discredit me as playing against weak and terrible Terrans. From what I've seen from your post history, you've been quoted as saying you are in Diamond. All the Terrans in the replays are in Master League. If you would like to PM me for a match (QTIP.630) to blow me away with your perfectly executed 1-1-1, I would be happy to upload the replay Win / Loss.
Im pretty sure i said your guide was good. Im not sure why your taking this personally. Im not saying your wrong. You yourself said you need more repalys.
You need to calm down its just a game 
Ive read the OP obviously, what im saying is that what he did obviously didnt work. At all, or even close. He asked for what he could have done better. And i believe cutting probes and not making 2 obs would have been better.
Basically chill out, stop getting personal its just a game. And he asked so i gave advice. If you dont agree that is fair enough.
Also he could have used the 1st observer to check for cloak. If not then he doesnt need the second one. What your saying is stylistic, i personally disagree with. If you get angry at people disagreeing with you, well, you shouldnt post in TL
I am curious though, what do you think he should have done in this specific example?
EDIT: also you seem to be referring to your opinion as fact. Also weak and terrible? Lol. Im fairly sure i didnt use those words, i said they werent that well executed. If you want to misquote me, at least do it well
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Here's something to consider, what is a good way to make the Terran make mistakes while doing the push? Assuming you have superior multi tasking, what are the kinds of things you can do to mess up the Terran doing this build?
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On August 16 2011 04:18 AA.spoon wrote:Ok, I officialy change my mind: its probably not possible to hold this push on certain maps if you expo, e.g. shakuras. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175398-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateauThis game was played at top master on eu server. I got demolished, it was not even close. I am not sure what I could have done. Edit: They push around 8 min and are at your base at 8:30.
Yeah.. at MLG Boxer moved out at 8 minutes. I don't know why my level terrans (low-mid masters on NA) insist on 5 tanks and 4 banshees moving out at like 11 minutes lol.
However you have to expo or ... it's imbalanced. I mean really. I suppose you could have gone 1 gate FE and not 1 gate robo (but that has its own risks?). But other than that, idk. 8 minute push is sooo much harder to hold than a 10 minute one, even with army scaling in T's favor.
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I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
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On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote:
I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
Would you min posting the replay? Sounds interesting
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On August 16 2011 09:55 Huntz wrote:Yeah.. at MLG Boxer moved out at 8 minutes. I don't know why my level terrans (low-mid masters on NA) insist on 5 tanks and 4 banshees moving out at like 11 minutes lol. However you have to expo or ... it's imbalanced. I mean really. I suppose you could have gone 1 gate FE and not 1 gate robo (but that has its own risks?). But other than that, idk. 8 minute push is sooo much harder to hold than a 10 minute one, even with army scaling in T's favor.
This is 100% true. If I go for my two observers, and the push comes at 8 minutes, often times my first immortal is only 50% complete. This puts you in an extremely tough position as a Protoss player. You don't have enough forces to force mid map engagements without losing units, and the Terran almost ALWAYS gets good positioning if they come this early. The only way I seem to break these timings are to pull probes (unfortunately).
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On August 16 2011 10:27 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote:
I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there. Would you min posting the replay? Sounds interesting
I would like to review a replay of this as well. I find it hard to believe that you are safely able to get all of these units at 8:30 without dying to any early pressure, but a replay would be the bottom line.
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On August 16 2011 10:30 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 10:27 Squigly wrote:On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote:
I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there. Would you min posting the replay? Sounds interesting I would like to review a replay of this as well. I find it hard to believe that you are safely able to get all of these units at 8:30 without dying to any early pressure, but a replay would be the bottom line.
Well I mean the whole point is you've scouted 1/1/1 with the observer. The opener is the same as yours, gate robo expand. Working on the replay
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re: 1 observer or 2
probably the best thing to do would be to send your first observer directly to the terran main to check for cloak while starting on an immortal. Once you see the tech lab you either let the immortal finish or cancel it to chrono another observer ASAP. Could maybe go observer#2 before immortal as long as you have vision on his base before it completes.
Would depend a bit on timings, obv this is rubbish if cloak research can be done before you spot his tech lab.
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It's not so much the build as it is the idea of pulling probes off gas because all you're making is zealots and maybe a phoenix here and there. With that in mind:
Heres a replay of me just building stuff against a computer, after thinking about the build for a little bit:
Replay 1
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KrKLa.jpg)
And here's where I first tried it - it was super rough, and my opponent wasnt so great either, gifting me a free banshee. But think about the idea moreso than the execution. The replay is from an 1v1 obs game, so you have to fast forward to 42:40 to find it. Sorry about that... just watch the first replay if you want timings.
Replay 2
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The problem with 1/1/1 is that sentries are pure, utter crap against it. Remember, if you put those probes on minerals instead of gas, you could have had nearly 2.5 zealots for each sentry you make. Of course, the problem is you need tons of sentries to hold a 3 rax, if he does that instead. It's easy to hold 1/1/1 with an expo if you stay on 1 gas and just spam zealots, but then you are just dead if he 3 raxes you. It's not possible to scout which one is coming until it's far too late. If you stay on 1 gas you can't open zealot sentry sentry, and if you open zealot stalker stalker you are 100% dead even if you see the 3 rax with your zealot+stalker poke. You now do not have enough gas to make enough sentries to hold it when he shows up with all his SCVs. Conversely, the 1/1/1 just kills you if you open zealot sentry sentry, now you can't poke at his ramp and get no scouting info until you get there with an observer, and it's again too late.
A lot of the stuff in this thread is just ridiculous theorycrafting that does not really work. Gas heavy openings with sentries and immortals do not work against a well executed 1/1/1. You do not have the APM required. The top pros barely have the APM required. They lose to it more often than not. You think you can do it? Seriously, you have to split up your zealots, (so tank splash doesn't get them all) FF perfectly, get guardian shield up, manually move the sentries forward so your zealots are covered by GS, micro your immortals so they're not shooting marines, dance your stalkers as their shields drop, etc etc. While you're doing all this you also have to be chrono boosting your warpgates and robo while placing down reinforcements. Oh and if he drops PDD you have to back up and repeat this entire process again. Even a tiny mistake at any point costs you the game instantly. Leave a 1 space gap in your FF? You lose. Immortal got stuck behind stalker? You lose. Sentries or zealots too bunched and take massive splash from 1 tank volley? You lose. GS too late or GS not covering zealots? You lose. Miss finishing of WG cooldown by 5 seconds? You lose.
In comparison, all the Terran has to do is 1a and push siege mode. Oh, he also needs to build reinforcements, but he's Terran, he can queue up more units by pressing one button. He doesn't need to actually place them on the map like you do. You don't have the APM needed to beat this with a "safe" build that doesn't die to early rax pressure + pulled SCVs. I'll repeat my advice from earlier.....just accept that you are going to take a build order loss against Terran a significant percentage of the time. Focus on winning the games you can win. I would recommend 2 gate expo with only 1 gas, and then stay on the 1 gas for a long time. Don't make sentries. Once the expo is started get 3 more gates. Don't get a robo, get a forge instead, boost out +1 armor and put a cannon in the center of your minerals to save your econ from cloak. Get 4-5 stalkers and just lots of zealots from that point while your build up your probe count. This will hold 2 rax pressure easily while also demolishing the 1/1/1. You are straight up dead if he does a 1 gas 3 rax all in, but thems the breaks.
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EPT
