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On August 16 2011 09:00 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 05:11 QTIP. wrote:On August 16 2011 04:33 Squigly wrote:
Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes. I was going to take your posts seriously, then I looked at some of your other threads. (A true Protoss hater) I'll reply out of decency. 2 Observers is covered in the guide. "This is completely stylistic, and others may prefer just a single observer. Two observers I find is simply safer. On maps/spawns with long distances, your observer may be getting to your opponents base when the banshee is halfway to yours. Also, during the critical engagement where the game will be decided, Terrans with Ravens may snipe your observer and cloaked banshees will end the game. A second observer can be useful." Emphasis on the word "stylistic". If you feel comfortable with 1, get 1. Cutting Probes is covered in the guide."Continue to make workers until the low 30’s, and throw up an additional 3 Gateways." You mention not reading 9 pages of feedback, try reading the OP first. Also you discredit me as playing against weak and terrible Terrans. From what I've seen from your post history, you've been quoted as saying you are in Diamond. All the Terrans in the replays are in Master League. If you would like to PM me for a match (QTIP.630) to blow me away with your perfectly executed 1-1-1, I would be happy to upload the replay Win / Loss. Im pretty sure i said your guide was good. Im not sure why your taking this personally. Im not saying your wrong. You yourself said you need more repalys. You need to calm down its just a game  Ive read the OP obviously, what im saying is that what he did obviously didnt work. At all, or even close. He asked for what he could have done better. And i believe cutting probes and not making 2 obs would have been better. Basically chill out, stop getting personal its just a game. And he asked so i gave advice. If you dont agree that is fair enough. Also he could have used the 1st observer to check for cloak. If not then he doesnt need the second one. What your saying is stylistic, i personally disagree with. If you get angry at people disagreeing with you, well, you shouldnt post in TL I am curious though, what do you think he should have done in this specific example? EDIT: also you seem to be referring to your opinion as fact. Also weak and terrible? Lol. Im fairly sure i didnt use those words, i said they werent that well executed. If you want to misquote me, at least do it well
Those two posts of yours don't really match with each other well
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On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote:
I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
It sounds like you are trying to see how many units you can get at a certain time point rather than what your army would naturally be in the normal flow of the game. If you open stargate, you don't need a robo + observer unless you actually scout him researching cloak with your phoenix. If you open robo, by the time your observer trucks it over to their base you won't have enough time to pop a stargate and enough phoenixes in time to make the investment worth it. And unless you opened stargate you likely will have to make at least 1 extra stalker to fend off possible banshee harass. And what if he doesn't 1/1/1 at all and FE's?
I still think a stargate opener handles a 1/1/1 push the best while still being able to fend off early aggression. You still get a reasonably timed expo if you scout them expanding which combined with phoenix harassment potential brings you into the mid-game just find economically. The map presence afforded by phoenixes should not be underestimated.
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mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
In my opinion, stargate builds are indeed the hard counter, though agreed are a bit tricky. Phoenix harass to delay the terran from moving out can allow you to get the units needed to hold off the push. Just my two cents.
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On August 17 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote:
mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
The correct protoss response to do this is to abandon the natural expansion and defend at the top of the ramp. I feel like thors are much easier to hold off than a strong marine/tank/banshee/scv attack.
1 robo 4 gate is very versatile and is great against any tech you throw at the protoss.
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Sorry if this has been addressed, if at all possible isn't it best to gas steal with your scouting probe if he has one gas already? If he leaves one marine to shoot away at it his 1-1-1 will be super late - and you get potentially better second scout -, feels like pretty good info for 75 mins.
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On August 17 2011 05:29 Sated wrote:
Gas steals are a good way to delay the 111, but if they're going for something more bio-heavy then you're essentially wasting 75 minerals. I don't mind gas-stealing because it does give me some free-scouting and it does heavily delay any cloaked banshee cheese (which I fear more than the 111 itself!), but you've got to balance out in your head that you do it at the cost of ~a zealot against a bio-heavy push!
Atm my preferred build is gas steal and 2 gate robo, skipping the zealot, With a lot of the stuff covered in this guide I feel it holds the 1-1-1 pretty well, I seem to manage to get charge easily in time which I feel is well worth the reduced unit count. However I'm only mid masters and constantly plagued by the "was that just my opponent being bad?" question so feel free to point out the error in that.
It's an easy hold of any bio push, obviously the big issue is a fast expansion and you will often have to deal with a slightly later second than him. I've noticed a lot of terrans do some kind of early bio poke with their expo, if they lose much to FF it seems easy to transition into 4gate + 3 chronod immortals for bunker/marauder and just destroy him, again though, it works in mid masters and dunno if it has a future,...see HuK's thoughts on his GSL match vs Bomber.
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On August 17 2011 01:19 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote:
I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there. It sounds like you are trying to see how many units you can get at a certain time point rather than what your army would naturally be in the normal flow of the game. If you open stargate, you don't need a robo + observer unless you actually scout him researching cloak with your phoenix. If you open robo, by the time your observer trucks it over to their base you won't have enough time to pop a stargate and enough phoenixes in time to make the investment worth it. And unless you opened stargate you likely will have to make at least 1 extra stalker to fend off possible banshee harass. And what if he doesn't 1/1/1 at all and FE's? I still think a stargate opener handles a 1/1/1 push the best while still being able to fend off early aggression. You still get a reasonably timed expo if you scout them expanding which combined with phoenix harassment potential brings you into the mid-game just find economically. The map presence afforded by phoenixes should not be underestimated.
Please watch the two replays before criticizing. I open with gate robo expand. Upon scouting 1/1/1 with the observer, you have time to start stargate, pull probes off gas, and go up to 4gates. That lends to a solid composition, with 2-3 phoenixes at the earliest push timings. I wanted to open robo for the sake of being safe against most other things, the stargate is a response to 1/1/1 because yes, I agree that stargate is the best way to hold it off.
I must stress that I do NOT know the timings exactly and I'm still playing around with this. I'm just suggesting that it is possible to open robo, and react to a 1/1/1 by going stargate and pulling probes off gas for more zealots.
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On August 17 2011 09:09 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 01:19 Skyro wrote:On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote:
I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there. It sounds like you are trying to see how many units you can get at a certain time point rather than what your army would naturally be in the normal flow of the game. If you open stargate, you don't need a robo + observer unless you actually scout him researching cloak with your phoenix. If you open robo, by the time your observer trucks it over to their base you won't have enough time to pop a stargate and enough phoenixes in time to make the investment worth it. And unless you opened stargate you likely will have to make at least 1 extra stalker to fend off possible banshee harass. And what if he doesn't 1/1/1 at all and FE's? I still think a stargate opener handles a 1/1/1 push the best while still being able to fend off early aggression. You still get a reasonably timed expo if you scout them expanding which combined with phoenix harassment potential brings you into the mid-game just find economically. The map presence afforded by phoenixes should not be underestimated. Please watch the two replays before criticizing. I open with gate robo expand. Upon scouting 1/1/1 with the observer, you have time to start stargate, pull probes off gas, and go up to 4gates. That lends to a solid composition, with 2-3 phoenixes at the earliest push timings. I wanted to open robo for the sake of being safe against most other things, the stargate is a response to 1/1/1 because yes, I agree that stargate is the best way to hold it off. I must stress that I do NOT know the timings exactly and I'm still playing around with this. I'm just suggesting that it is possible to open robo, and react to a 1/1/1 by going stargate and pulling probes off gas for more zealots.
Oh my apologies I did not see you post replays.
Ok so I watched the first replay (sorry I'm not going to fast forward 40 mins into a game to watch the second replay where you yourself say was bad execution), but you threw down your expo (off 1-gate) and stargate before your obs reached their base. You are basically doing these things blind so you wouldn't be able to do these in a real game because of the threat of an early rax push.
If you want a more realistic approach you would only throw down your expo/stargate after your obs reaches his base (and mind you this is on XN where the rush distance is small so your obs would take even longer to scout them on other maps). Still, if you open robo and they did decide to FE you will be behind economically going into the mid-game which is I prefer to open stargate off any 1-base play or just straight blind open 1-gate FE which is viable on large maps.
Basically the gist of a stargate opener is you can open gate-stargate-gate and then scout w/ your phoenix and either add another gate if they are doing an early push or if they are expanding you can expand then yourself. If you choose to FE then you can pretty much just follow this guide, it is fairly fleshed out. But note the part about having to make 2 obs in case of 1-base cloak banshee timing, which would affect your unit composition.
And all my earlier points still stand. If you opened FE, you have to make more than 1 stalker vs banshees. This is another reason I like stargate openers because with phoenix on the field you can skip early stalker production.
Also one last note as said numerous times there are a few variations of the 1/1/1 timing push, so the map presence afforded by phoenixes is also a big factor in preparing for the push whenever it happens to come.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
I feel that bumping this thread is warranted.
Watching the IEM Gamescom day 1, Select versus TSL_Killer, game 1 Select counters Killer's nexus first with 4 rax marine all in.
Game 2, Killer opens with zealot, stalker, stalker against a "greedy" wall-off by Select (3 depots, no bunkers) at his ramp in Metalopolis. Killer get's some good harass done, then follows up with fast mass-blink stalkers. Ahhh but Select is going for the 1-1-1. Killer spots this with robo --> observer, then begins countering.
He counters the 1-1-1 by hanging out the front door of Select with 7 stalkers, just hit n running. Also coming at different angles to snipe tanks. Trades 1-2 stalkers for a tank each time, until Select finally gets to Killer's base.
Killer munches the all-in with ease, with a mass stalker army + 1 sentry for Guardian and just 1 round of zealot warpins.
I'm horrible at explaining, but it'll be very useful to watch the replays/vods once it's up.
I forgot how Huk stopped MMA's, but whatever Huk did was impressive as well
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On August 17 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote:
mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
In my opinion, stargate builds are indeed the hard counter, though agreed are a bit tricky. Phoenix harass to delay the terran from moving out can allow you to get the units needed to hold off the push. Just my two cents.
I'd rather play vs a thor all in than a 1/1/1 with tanks and banshees any day.
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So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1.
Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
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On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote:
So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1.
Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
I have had minor success, with an on the whim arcon/zealot against later 1-1-1's. Unsure yet.
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On August 17 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote:
mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
In my opinion, stargate builds are indeed the hard counter, though agreed are a bit tricky. Phoenix harass to delay the terran from moving out can allow you to get the units needed to hold off the push. Just my two cents.
A thor push is rediculously easy to stop if the factory isn't proxied so that definately is not an issue, especially if they have to wait for their hellion to scout your nexus before dropping an armory. Thor pushes in general are dead in TvP since autorepair and 250mm cannon were nerfed.
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It seems all the rage in beating 1-1-1 is going for a quick expand whilst massing zealot and a few stalker sentry and immortal. How come some people are so against 1 base collosi? I have about 5 replays at home from some korean crushing the build with 1 base collosi (I can't remember where I got them from, somebody linked me to them on here but it was all korean so I didn't even understand what site it was). I can probably upload them when I next go home if people are interested.
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind? The toss has already reached the potent collosi tech, whereas the terran is left with tech somewhat redundant after the timing window has closed; seige tanks and banshees aren't all that useful (unless the terran had intended to go mech). More importantly, they will be behind on marauder count, won't have stim, shields or concussive or any vikings or medivacs. Couldn't you just expand when they do and head into the midgame with stronger tech? Or am I missing something here in my noobiness.
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On August 17 2011 22:06 Ryder. wrote:
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind?
The first unit out of his starport should be the raven, in order to save up energy for PDD. This also means you probably won't have an obs in his base any more.
Terran can scout you with either a hellion or his first banshee, and if he sees you massing a big one-base ball he can always expand, tech up, and he already has a starport and a reactor (on his rax) to mass up vikings.
Other than that on a more general note, if you can chose to counter it off of one base or off of two bases, you should always go off of two bases 
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On August 17 2011 22:22 Malyce wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 22:06 Ryder. wrote:
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind? The first unit out of his starport should be the raven, in order to save up energy for PDD. This also means you probably won't have an obs in his base any more. Terran can scout you with either a hellion or his first banshee, and if he sees you massing a big one-base ball he can always expand, tech up, and he already has a starport and a reactor (on his rax) to mass up vikings. Other than that on a more general note, if you can chose to counter it off of one base or off of two bases, you should always go off of two bases
Not all 1-1-1 pushes involve a raven, and if they are getting one you can always park your observer somewhere outside his base where you can still see if he pushes out/expands or whatever.
Obviously you are right in that if you can counter it with 2 base it is much better than staying on 1 base, but whenever I see a 1 base collosi counter it looks so much easier than trying to do it off 2 base.
And its true he can always switch addons to start pumping vikings, but I think you could still argue the toss has a decent head start in tech. Would love to hear more opinions on this
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On August 17 2011 22:06 Ryder. wrote:
It seems all the rage in beating 1-1-1 is going for a quick expand whilst massing zealot and a few stalker sentry and immortal. How come some people are so against 1 base collosi? I have about 5 replays at home from some korean crushing the build with 1 base collosi (I can't remember where I got them from, somebody linked me to them on here but it was all korean so I didn't even understand what site it was). I can probably upload them when I next go home if people are interested.
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind? The toss has already reached the potent collosi tech, whereas the terran is left with tech somewhat redundant after the timing window has closed; seige tanks and banshees aren't all that useful (unless the terran had intended to go mech). More importantly, they will be behind on marauder count, won't have stim, shields or concussive or any vikings or medivacs. Couldn't you just expand when they do and head into the midgame with stronger tech? Or am I missing something here in my noobiness.
If you are going to wait for an obs in their base before expanding you are extremely behind if they are just about floating their orbital out of base when you arrive. 1 base colossus pushing has absolutely no use against MM expand builds. It is an 'ok' counter against 1 base banshee/tank push but they can easily just go for a tank expo afterwards and swap the reactor to their starport, hardly puts you ahead.
The only option imo for P against T is to either do a very aggresive opening and slightly gamble that it will do damage or to expand quickly. A reactive opening like 2 gate robo is just very far behind if they did a quick in base expansion. A key point to remember here is that T reaches saturation far slower then P does because of Mules, therefore it is an advantage for T to keep the game restricted to fewer bases, P should always be playing hyperaggresive or expoing quickly imo in PvT. Robo openings are only good on really small maps where the quick obs is more useful.
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On August 17 2011 19:59 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
I feel that bumping this thread is warranted.
Watching the IEM Gamescom day 1, Select versus TSL_Killer, game 1 Select counters Killer's nexus first with 4 rax marine all in.
Game 2, Killer opens with zealot, stalker, stalker against a "greedy" wall-off by Select (3 depots, no bunkers) at his ramp in Metalopolis. Killer get's some good harass done, then follows up with fast mass-blink stalkers. Ahhh but Select is going for the 1-1-1. Killer spots this with robo --> observer, then begins countering.
He counters the 1-1-1 by hanging out the front door of Select with 7 stalkers, just hit n running. Also coming at different angles to snipe tanks. Trades 1-2 stalkers for a tank each time, until Select finally gets to Killer's base.
Killer munches the all-in with ease, with a mass stalker army + 1 sentry for Guardian and just 1 round of zealot warpins.
I'm horrible at explaining, but it'll be very useful to watch the replays/vods once it's up.
I forgot how Huk stopped MMA's, but whatever Huk did was impressive as well
So I'm guessing for game 1 killer saw the marines on top of the ramp? Dirty play (good) by Select
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On August 18 2011 03:40 Xahhk wrote:So I'm guessing for game 1 killer saw the marines on top of the ramp? Dirty play (good) by Select
This is the weakness of any FE build that attempts to prepare for a 1-1-1, without a way of confirming the build.
Partial Info you can get, that may may/not be 1-1-1:
- Only marines @ ramp, with/without bunker.
- You see a tank come out.
Confirmation can be obtained by:
- Observer in their base.
- Air unit (phoenix) in their base.
- Random bunker run-by with a stalker (I've done this only once ever! terran must have been afk...)
Without this confirmation, you run the risk of running into a 3/4rax stim, or some form of mech expand.
Obviously you're not really in any trouble if it turns out to be a mech expand.. you're just gonna have wasted 300 minerals on cannons you didnt need - whereas you pretty much want a robo vs Mech anyway.
Edit: This is why I prefer EITHER hallucination after WG from a 1gate sentry expand, or a CB'd phoenix from a stargate. (Of course Robo works too, I am just exploring other responses)
Have had moderate success with phoenix; if it's 1-1-1, I am in a great spot, if it's not 1-1-1, I can be in trouble (3rax stim).
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EPT
